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I'm not a Warrior Mage, but I like the style that you listed out those spells. Pretty intuitive.
For anyone who didn't know...
Magic 3*.*0 Overview: https://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=4&topic=16&message=12104
Magic 3*.*0 Contested Spells: https://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=4&topic=37&message=5725
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
BEVERAGEK
CLAUDDVONMAUDDIV
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/19/2010 01:05 PM CDT
Fire Rain:
We want player opinions here. Without going into slot cost again, you have a couple options.
1) Area Effect Multi-Strike TM. Would strike all targets in the room 3-5 times. Can be targeted.
2) Cyclic Area Effect Multi-Strike TM. Would immediately and then continuously strike all targets in the room with you multiple times. Cannot be targeted.
3) Something similar to what you have now, which would throw a few volleys of fire after considerable buildup and between some waiting times. Cannot be targeted.
I vote #2.
Mark of Arhat:
We also want player opinions here. Damage over Time spells are often seen as lackluster, so you have two options here...
1) Advanced Targeted Damage over Time TM. Damage potential would be about half again what a regular spell is, but doles it out over 20 seconds or so.
2) Introductory Debilitation. MoA becomes an elemental damage amplifier debuff. Think Heighten Pain for Necromancers but with an emphasis on improving elemental instead of physical damage.
I vote # 1.
(As yet unnamed)
Esoteric Cyclic Augmentation / Targeted spell. Draws forth the latent potential within your familiar, allowing them to serve you in combat for a time. The familiar can be directed to attack a target of your choice or attack freely. It will continually attack its target until it is slain, then move on to the next.
You may have noticed that the spells that create weapons are absent, but do not fear. They will still exist, through a system which we are not quite ready to elaborate on.
...will your familiar fighting for you work any of the WM's skills? If so, what?
C.M
We want player opinions here. Without going into slot cost again, you have a couple options.
1) Area Effect Multi-Strike TM. Would strike all targets in the room 3-5 times. Can be targeted.
2) Cyclic Area Effect Multi-Strike TM. Would immediately and then continuously strike all targets in the room with you multiple times. Cannot be targeted.
3) Something similar to what you have now, which would throw a few volleys of fire after considerable buildup and between some waiting times. Cannot be targeted.
I vote #2.
Mark of Arhat:
We also want player opinions here. Damage over Time spells are often seen as lackluster, so you have two options here...
1) Advanced Targeted Damage over Time TM. Damage potential would be about half again what a regular spell is, but doles it out over 20 seconds or so.
2) Introductory Debilitation. MoA becomes an elemental damage amplifier debuff. Think Heighten Pain for Necromancers but with an emphasis on improving elemental instead of physical damage.
I vote # 1.
(As yet unnamed)
Esoteric Cyclic Augmentation / Targeted spell. Draws forth the latent potential within your familiar, allowing them to serve you in combat for a time. The familiar can be directed to attack a target of your choice or attack freely. It will continually attack its target until it is slain, then move on to the next.
You may have noticed that the spells that create weapons are absent, but do not fear. They will still exist, through a system which we are not quite ready to elaborate on.
...will your familiar fighting for you work any of the WM's skills? If so, what?
C.M
DR-ZEYURN
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/19/2010 01:11 PM CDT
>...will your familiar fighting for you work any of the WM's skills? If so, what?
It'd be TM.
-Z
It'd be TM.
-Z
BEVERAGEK
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/19/2010 01:14 PM CDT
Also... quick question here.
>> #5) Stacking boosts of the same type is strictly disallowed. If you have for example an evasion booster, then said evasion booster is as powerful as the guild is allowed to get and you won't be allowed to have a second evasion booster somewhere else.
If my guild has an evasion boost spell and I also have the Sphere of Protection spell invoked...
A) If I cast both spells on myself, will these two spells no longer stack together up to the Global Cap?
B) If I cast just Sphere of Protection on myself(Survival Tertiary), I will receive less of an evasion bonus than would be granted if it were to be cast on a Ranger(Survival Primary)?
C) Are you saying that you have created individual Global Caps on a guild by guild basis? As an example, a Survival tertiary can only ever receive an evasion bonus from one spell up to an effective bonus of +x ranks regardless of where the spell comes from, and a Survival primary can only ever receive an evasion bonus from one spell up to an effective bonus of +y ranks regardless of where the spell comes from?
Yeah, I'm a little confused with #5.
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
>> #5) Stacking boosts of the same type is strictly disallowed. If you have for example an evasion booster, then said evasion booster is as powerful as the guild is allowed to get and you won't be allowed to have a second evasion booster somewhere else.
If my guild has an evasion boost spell and I also have the Sphere of Protection spell invoked...
A) If I cast both spells on myself, will these two spells no longer stack together up to the Global Cap?
B) If I cast just Sphere of Protection on myself(Survival Tertiary), I will receive less of an evasion bonus than would be granted if it were to be cast on a Ranger(Survival Primary)?
C) Are you saying that you have created individual Global Caps on a guild by guild basis? As an example, a Survival tertiary can only ever receive an evasion bonus from one spell up to an effective bonus of +x ranks regardless of where the spell comes from, and a Survival primary can only ever receive an evasion bonus from one spell up to an effective bonus of +y ranks regardless of where the spell comes from?
Yeah, I'm a little confused with #5.
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
DR-ZEYURN
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/19/2010 01:17 PM CDT
You're overthinking it. All it means is that the same guild isn't allowed to have multiple buffs to the same skill in their own ability set.
-Z
-Z
ROBERTDH
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/19/2010 01:37 PM CDT
So no more Spell Synergy? There are several suggestions here the concept is being dropped.
The air book is gigantic! No comment there, just saying.
Defensive spells seem to have mostly stepped down in difficulty class. I don't quite understand how efficacy will relate to difficulty in the new schema but that kind of looks like a nerf.
There's no introductory Utility spell. Isn't that going to be a detriment to starting characters?
"Magic has rules and so does posting on these forums." -Annwyl
The air book is gigantic! No comment there, just saying.
Defensive spells seem to have mostly stepped down in difficulty class. I don't quite understand how efficacy will relate to difficulty in the new schema but that kind of looks like a nerf.
There's no introductory Utility spell. Isn't that going to be a detriment to starting characters?
"Magic has rules and so does posting on these forums." -Annwyl
DR-ZEYURN
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/19/2010 01:45 PM CDT
>I don't quite understand how efficacy will relate to difficulty
Please read the important section that states all effects on all spells are capped to the level your guild can support, and the other important section that states difficulty class has no impact on spell power.
>There's no introductory Utility spell. Isn't that going to be a detriment to starting characters?
There's only at most 1 Introductory spell per book. Basic spells can be cast by the average 2nd circle character, so it won't really be a problem.
-Z
Please read the important section that states all effects on all spells are capped to the level your guild can support, and the other important section that states difficulty class has no impact on spell power.
>There's no introductory Utility spell. Isn't that going to be a detriment to starting characters?
There's only at most 1 Introductory spell per book. Basic spells can be cast by the average 2nd circle character, so it won't really be a problem.
-Z
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/19/2010 02:14 PM CDT
A bit more generalized but not spell bullet-point information about the weapon summons:
We have not decided on which elements and forms we will focus on yet (it's not practical to cover them all during release).
The basic spell structure is "X of Y" (Air Bow, Fire Sword, whatever). This provides an above store-bought weapon who's advantage over store-bought is based on an elemental modifier. This is themed around the element used in creation, and is not necessarily extra damage. If you know multiple weapon creations, you can mix and match forms and elemental modifiers. In the above example, if you know both theoretical spells, you would also be able to form Fire Bows and Air Swords.
Elemental weapons will be resummonable over the duration of the spell, not just "drop it and it's gone."
There will be some mechanism to be able to temporarily arm friends with elemental weapons, though we are still debating between two different systems for it.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
We have not decided on which elements and forms we will focus on yet (it's not practical to cover them all during release).
The basic spell structure is "X of Y" (Air Bow, Fire Sword, whatever). This provides an above store-bought weapon who's advantage over store-bought is based on an elemental modifier. This is themed around the element used in creation, and is not necessarily extra damage. If you know multiple weapon creations, you can mix and match forms and elemental modifiers. In the above example, if you know both theoretical spells, you would also be able to form Fire Bows and Air Swords.
Elemental weapons will be resummonable over the duration of the spell, not just "drop it and it's gone."
There will be some mechanism to be able to temporarily arm friends with elemental weapons, though we are still debating between two different systems for it.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
POWERHAUS
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/19/2010 03:35 PM CDT
Thank u for this, looking forward to it.
Comments:
MOA - how about make it esoteric and both? Minor damage with boost to fire damage? Like setting someone on fire and using the flames around them. It's Arhats spell it should be good.
FR- I like how it works now and still seems unique among the new stuff.
PW- oh hell yes
YS- not too sure I'd want to armor down to cast it. Maybe if you could choose which piece with enough skill.
Long live air bubble.
Other than the aether book lookin slim, which makes sense, but throw the doom gerbil spell in there, and everything else looks good to me.
_________________________________
An old cranky ogre with no legs says, "Naarg wives all this Naarg wives now."
Comments:
MOA - how about make it esoteric and both? Minor damage with boost to fire damage? Like setting someone on fire and using the flames around them. It's Arhats spell it should be good.
FR- I like how it works now and still seems unique among the new stuff.
PW- oh hell yes
YS- not too sure I'd want to armor down to cast it. Maybe if you could choose which piece with enough skill.
Long live air bubble.
Other than the aether book lookin slim, which makes sense, but throw the doom gerbil spell in there, and everything else looks good to me.
_________________________________
An old cranky ogre with no legs says, "Naarg wives all this Naarg wives now."
DR-ZEYURN
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/19/2010 03:40 PM CDT
>MOA - how about make it esoteric and both? Minor damage with boost to fire damage? Like setting someone on fire and using the flames around them. It's Arhats spell it should be good.
I don't really mind this option either. Keep letting us know what you like.
>YS- not too sure I'd want to armor down to cast it. Maybe if you could choose which piece with enough skill.
I just realized it'd probably be easy enough to just let you cast at the armor piece you want a buff on, so we'll assume that's how it works.
-Z
I don't really mind this option either. Keep letting us know what you like.
>YS- not too sure I'd want to armor down to cast it. Maybe if you could choose which piece with enough skill.
I just realized it'd probably be easy enough to just let you cast at the armor piece you want a buff on, so we'll assume that's how it works.
-Z
SHADESLAYER
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/19/2010 03:44 PM CDT
Can this post please be added to the announcement section on the homescreen to play.net/dr? Alot of people don't read the forums and it should be advertised properly to catch attention.
Which would be worse? To live as a monster or to die as a good man?
Which would be worse? To live as a monster or to die as a good man?
ROBERTDH
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/19/2010 03:54 PM CDT
Ah so you just need to stick with the AP Utility spell for your first four ranks. Fair enough.
So I should be looking at this as sort of... buffs which are more in line with our focus will be easier to access.
Regarding YS, is the bonus going to be averaged out over the number of locations the piece protects?
"Magic has rules and so does posting on these forums." -Annwyl
So I should be looking at this as sort of... buffs which are more in line with our focus will be easier to access.
Regarding YS, is the bonus going to be averaged out over the number of locations the piece protects?
"Magic has rules and so does posting on these forums." -Annwyl
ETTOREN
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/19/2010 05:13 PM CDT
YS: Not real sure if I like the removal of hinderance reduction. It's one of the only reasons I took the spell. After a certain point additional ranks in armor aren't that worth while. Unless it does something in addition to adding X ammount of armor ranks it most likely will not make its way back into my spell book.
SUF: Why take away the agility and reflex boost? I wouldn't mind paying 3-4 slots for this spell as it currently sits as it's probably my most used non-targeted spell.
SW: Seems similar to what we currently have but you took out the parry booster.
Why not go with SUF as Agility/Evasion booster and SW as Reflex/Parry Booster. Add the pulsing balance as an add on to either but make it so both spells can be used simultaneously (the winds of Elanthia gust in breifly to push you into better balance. or the grounds of Elanthia breifly pull on your feet to stabilize your balance. or somesuch)
Tingle: Primary use is to make the critter drop it's held items. I can see removing this to eliminate potential for abuse vs PC's, but I'd rather make a critter drop the shield/bow/weapon than debuf their reflex and agility.
Elemental Transformations: Heartily disagree with only being able to use one at a time unless they are OMG Powerful. Want the Agility buff from MoF and to be able to use AeG? Sorry. no.
MoF: It's current functionality is great. Don't change it. Leave the agility booster on Sure Footing.
I do like the proposed changes to our Offensive lineup even though it means I will probably have to start taking Fire base spells.
I'm extremely interested in hearing more about Familiar Combat and the Elemental Weapons systems
~Tieriana~
SUF: Why take away the agility and reflex boost? I wouldn't mind paying 3-4 slots for this spell as it currently sits as it's probably my most used non-targeted spell.
SW: Seems similar to what we currently have but you took out the parry booster.
Why not go with SUF as Agility/Evasion booster and SW as Reflex/Parry Booster. Add the pulsing balance as an add on to either but make it so both spells can be used simultaneously (the winds of Elanthia gust in breifly to push you into better balance. or the grounds of Elanthia breifly pull on your feet to stabilize your balance. or somesuch)
Tingle: Primary use is to make the critter drop it's held items. I can see removing this to eliminate potential for abuse vs PC's, but I'd rather make a critter drop the shield/bow/weapon than debuf their reflex and agility.
Elemental Transformations: Heartily disagree with only being able to use one at a time unless they are OMG Powerful. Want the Agility buff from MoF and to be able to use AeG? Sorry. no.
MoF: It's current functionality is great. Don't change it. Leave the agility booster on Sure Footing.
I do like the proposed changes to our Offensive lineup even though it means I will probably have to start taking Fire base spells.
I'm extremely interested in hearing more about Familiar Combat and the Elemental Weapons systems
~Tieriana~
DR-ZEYURN
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/19/2010 05:35 PM CDT
>YS: Not real sure if I like the removal of hinderance reduction. It's one of the only reasons I took the spell.
We're aware of this, but frankly it's not an ability I can approve in general, so the option is this or nothing, and we suspect armor skill will be more valuable with new combat.
>SUF: Why take away the agility and reflex boost? I wouldn't mind paying 3-4 slots for this spell as it currently sits as it's probably my most used non-targeted spell.
The spell does too much and why an Earth spell makes you faster is a little bizarre. A lot of stuff in the Warrior Mage spellbooks changed simply because the 'mechanism of action', or how the spell accomplishes the goal, simply did not make sense with what it was doing. Thus, the boosts that didn't make sense were split apart to other spells.
>Elemental Transformations: Heartily disagree with only being able to use one at a time unless they are OMG Powerful.
It's a fact of life that you simply can't do everything at once. All guilds are going to have aesthetic and functional disadvantages in their spells. This is one of them, and it's not really expected that it be loved. One is centered around being offensive, the other is centered around being defensive.
>MoF: It's current functionality is great. Don't change it.
The current functionality is not an option. It's a mish-mash of bizarre effects that don't mesh well with the rules of Magic 3.0. It's especially less useful when you won't need it to protect yourself from your own spells anymore. Since we'd have to gut the spell pretty much completely, we decided to reuse the name and find better things to add to it.
-Z
We're aware of this, but frankly it's not an ability I can approve in general, so the option is this or nothing, and we suspect armor skill will be more valuable with new combat.
>SUF: Why take away the agility and reflex boost? I wouldn't mind paying 3-4 slots for this spell as it currently sits as it's probably my most used non-targeted spell.
The spell does too much and why an Earth spell makes you faster is a little bizarre. A lot of stuff in the Warrior Mage spellbooks changed simply because the 'mechanism of action', or how the spell accomplishes the goal, simply did not make sense with what it was doing. Thus, the boosts that didn't make sense were split apart to other spells.
>Elemental Transformations: Heartily disagree with only being able to use one at a time unless they are OMG Powerful.
It's a fact of life that you simply can't do everything at once. All guilds are going to have aesthetic and functional disadvantages in their spells. This is one of them, and it's not really expected that it be loved. One is centered around being offensive, the other is centered around being defensive.
>MoF: It's current functionality is great. Don't change it.
The current functionality is not an option. It's a mish-mash of bizarre effects that don't mesh well with the rules of Magic 3.0. It's especially less useful when you won't need it to protect yourself from your own spells anymore. Since we'd have to gut the spell pretty much completely, we decided to reuse the name and find better things to add to it.
-Z
ILLIENA
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/19/2010 05:37 PM CDT
> What this means is that if the skill or stat it boosts is considered to be in your 'sphere of influence' it will produce a maximized boost.
Could you define precisely what the sphere of influence covers? TM, obviously, but what else?
Could you define precisely what the sphere of influence covers? TM, obviously, but what else?
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/19/2010 05:46 PM CDT
>>The spell does too much and why an Earth spell makes you faster is a little bizarre. A lot of stuff in the Warrior Mage spellbooks changed simply because the 'mechanism of action', or how the spell accomplishes the goal, simply did not make sense with what it was doing. Thus, the boosts that didn't make sense were split apart to other spells.
To expand on this:
Mechanism of action is a term in medicine that refers to the direct causal relationship between a drug and its effect. If we can describe why in biomechanical terms a drug works, rather than simply that we inject you with something and it does stuff, then we understand its mechanism of action.
This is a concept that got hijacked for the sake of coherent spell design. When we talk about a spell's mechanism of action, we refer to the specific thing the spell proports to do: summon a shard of fire, stabilize your feet, grant you x-ray vision, whatever. Having a firm grip on that, we then want to make sure the spell's effects follow logically from that.
Magic doesn't need to be realistic, but it does need to be internally consistent and logically coherent. This is the scheme we currently embrace to see that through.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
To expand on this:
Mechanism of action is a term in medicine that refers to the direct causal relationship between a drug and its effect. If we can describe why in biomechanical terms a drug works, rather than simply that we inject you with something and it does stuff, then we understand its mechanism of action.
This is a concept that got hijacked for the sake of coherent spell design. When we talk about a spell's mechanism of action, we refer to the specific thing the spell proports to do: summon a shard of fire, stabilize your feet, grant you x-ray vision, whatever. Having a firm grip on that, we then want to make sure the spell's effects follow logically from that.
Magic doesn't need to be realistic, but it does need to be internally consistent and logically coherent. This is the scheme we currently embrace to see that through.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
ROBERTDH
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/19/2010 05:50 PM CDT
Oh, I missed the tingle bit. Suppose it was too good to last.
I'm not familiar with debuffs in DR. Are those at all desirable? Are they going to be desirable in combat 3.0?
It seems like a bad idea to debuff anything when you could buff yourself for longer than your victim's expected lifespan. Is this a false perception?
"Magic has rules and so does posting on these forums." -Annwyl
I'm not familiar with debuffs in DR. Are those at all desirable? Are they going to be desirable in combat 3.0?
It seems like a bad idea to debuff anything when you could buff yourself for longer than your victim's expected lifespan. Is this a false perception?
"Magic has rules and so does posting on these forums." -Annwyl
DR-ZEYURN
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/19/2010 06:06 PM CDT
>Could you define precisely what the sphere of influence covers? TM, obviously, but what else?
For every guild, the sphere of influence is - Every skill in your primary skillset, most skills in secondary skillsets, and a smattering of tertiary skills. Also, 3 statistics out of the 8.
>Oh, I missed the tingle bit. Suppose it was too good to last.
I'm not opposed to having a 'enemies drop weapons' spell, or adding it back into Tingle. The main thing to remember is that using spells/abilities to take items from other players is 100% mech abuse and we'll be building protections so that players auto-retrieve their items for any abilities like this that Magic 3.0 has.
Debuffs should be much more valuable in Combat 3.0.
-Z
For every guild, the sphere of influence is - Every skill in your primary skillset, most skills in secondary skillsets, and a smattering of tertiary skills. Also, 3 statistics out of the 8.
>Oh, I missed the tingle bit. Suppose it was too good to last.
I'm not opposed to having a 'enemies drop weapons' spell, or adding it back into Tingle. The main thing to remember is that using spells/abilities to take items from other players is 100% mech abuse and we'll be building protections so that players auto-retrieve their items for any abilities like this that Magic 3.0 has.
Debuffs should be much more valuable in Combat 3.0.
-Z
BEVERAGEK
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/19/2010 06:18 PM CDT
Love the direction you guys are going. Cannot wait to see a list of Bard spells/enchantes.
Not sure where this question is best placed, but in reference to spheres of influence--What if you're Lore primary? Spells primarily affect combat skills and such. Are spheres of influence primarily tailored to "spheres of influence in a combat setting"?
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
Not sure where this question is best placed, but in reference to spheres of influence--What if you're Lore primary? Spells primarily affect combat skills and such. Are spheres of influence primarily tailored to "spheres of influence in a combat setting"?
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
ILLIENA
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/19/2010 06:23 PM CDT
>For every guild, the sphere of influence is - Every skill in your primary skillset, most skills in secondary skillsets, and a smattering of tertiary skills. Also, 3 statistics out of the 8.
Interesting, thank you. This is distinct from a guild's "theme" (or whatever), right? For instance, MM TM spells and Ranger TM spells will still be equivalent, even though TM is in the MM sphere of influence and it's (probably) not in the Ranger sphere? Meanwhile WM TM spells will not be equivalent to Ranger TM spells?
Interesting, thank you. This is distinct from a guild's "theme" (or whatever), right? For instance, MM TM spells and Ranger TM spells will still be equivalent, even though TM is in the MM sphere of influence and it's (probably) not in the Ranger sphere? Meanwhile WM TM spells will not be equivalent to Ranger TM spells?
ETTOREN
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/19/2010 06:44 PM CDT
<<using spells/abilities to take items from other players is 100% mech abuse and we'll be building protections so that players auto-retrieve their items
I'm fully on board with this. Please leave the ability to make critters drop weapons/items in hands as part of Tingle.
Sure footing making your more agile and evasive...
If you have sloppy foot control you're much more likely to fall on your face which translates into being less evasive. Having better footing also equates with being more agile as you are less likely to slip and to be more confident in your movements. Sort of like wearing Running shoes or Cross-trainers when playing a sport. If yer wearing a pair of bowling shoes you're much less agile as your footing is less secure. I see sure footing as putting Cleats on to go play football/soccer/baseball or climbing shoes when going cliff climbing
I don't see Sure footing as cementing your feet to the ground.
~Tieriana~
I'm fully on board with this. Please leave the ability to make critters drop weapons/items in hands as part of Tingle.
Sure footing making your more agile and evasive...
If you have sloppy foot control you're much more likely to fall on your face which translates into being less evasive. Having better footing also equates with being more agile as you are less likely to slip and to be more confident in your movements. Sort of like wearing Running shoes or Cross-trainers when playing a sport. If yer wearing a pair of bowling shoes you're much less agile as your footing is less secure. I see sure footing as putting Cleats on to go play football/soccer/baseball or climbing shoes when going cliff climbing
I don't see Sure footing as cementing your feet to the ground.
~Tieriana~
APATHETICSMILE
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/19/2010 08:03 PM CDT
Will Heavy Plate still be a viable choice for warrior mages or should those of us who've focused on it start working on a lighter choice?
ETTOREN
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/19/2010 08:08 PM CDT
<<Will Heavy Plate still be a viable choice for warrior mages or should those of us who've focused on it start working on a lighter choice?
I've already switched to light chain from HP. Luckily I began that before the spell changes were announced. I'll probably still train HP, just not as my primary armor.
~Tieriana~
I've already switched to light chain from HP. Luckily I began that before the spell changes were announced. I'll probably still train HP, just not as my primary armor.
~Tieriana~
APATHETICSMILE
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/19/2010 08:13 PM CDT
I've always thought of WMs as the other guild who could effectively use HP. It'll be sad if it's going away.
CLAUDDVONMAUDDIV
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/19/2010 08:19 PM CDT
Do the GM's have any plans for those characters who have always used HP and their second armor is far far less than their main armor? It's not going to be possible to hunt in a given area any longer if HP isn't a viable option. Backtraining another armor up to the level necessary to hunt in characters current zone would take months or, quite possibly, years.
C.M
C.M
ROBERTDH
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/19/2010 08:55 PM CDT
It's kind of weird that Sure Footing helps you open boxes and fold paper, though...
"Magic has rules and so does posting on these forums." -Annwyl
"Magic has rules and so does posting on these forums." -Annwyl
DR-ZEYURN
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/19/2010 09:07 PM CDT
The fact that you won't have a hindrance reduction is not going to make the sky fall for HP, especially in Combat 3.0 which is slated to be released about the same time.
My advice to anyone who is thinking of changing their armor selection based on this is: don't.
-Z
My advice to anyone who is thinking of changing their armor selection based on this is: don't.
-Z
ETTOREN
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/19/2010 09:25 PM CDT
<<My advice to anyone who is thinking of changing their armor selection based on this is: don't.
Tieriana's not that far behind being HP Prime to switching over to LC Prime. I was doing it for other reasons, this is just pointing me further towards thinking it was a "Good Choice" when I made that decision.
That being said, Using HP body armor and swapping out gloves and helm to a lighter weight armor to get that moving isn't a bad thing. It's what I did to get LC moving and up to a usable point in Tier's hunting grounds.
~Tieriana~
Tieriana's not that far behind being HP Prime to switching over to LC Prime. I was doing it for other reasons, this is just pointing me further towards thinking it was a "Good Choice" when I made that decision.
That being said, Using HP body armor and swapping out gloves and helm to a lighter weight armor to get that moving isn't a bad thing. It's what I did to get LC moving and up to a usable point in Tier's hunting grounds.
~Tieriana~
BEVERAGEK
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/19/2010 10:42 PM CDT
I would like to think that the Heavy Plate armor group is useful for other guilds that are not survival primary/secondary, or am I mis-understanding the doom and gloom about YS?
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
CLEARLEAF
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/20/2010 12:56 AM CDT
Long Post warning, I babble:
>>Arc Light:An advanced Electric Debilitation spell. Magic vs. Reflex. It will stun the target, do non-lethal damage to their head, and ignite naphtha.
Non-lethal damage to their head. I'm pleasantly intrigued.
>>Static Discharge:Candidate for Removal due to obsolescence with other WM disablers. Discharged Ethereal Shields no longer exist or are needed.
Tingle seems to take its place and turns into something akin to the cleric's Malediction, then loses its most valuable attribute: disarming. Yet we keep air bubble whose sole function could be the tertiary function of any number of other spells.
The changes to LB, CL, and GZ are all great. Sounds like LB may turn back to being the TM trainer of old and CL returns to crowd control. Missile GZ is awesome. Curious about the hinted spell in the ball lightning writeup.
MoF: SuF loses its agility buff, which is huge, and MoF gains it by turning you into the Human (or olvi) Torch. I'd don't see the mechanism of action here. I'm more agile because I can flicker? I guess I can see it; I'm mostly bitter about losing SuF's agility buff.
I can see a 1 - 2 punch of Frostbite (stamina hit) followed by thunderclap and/or tingle(magic vs. fortitude (ie magic vs. stamina)) being awesome. That is, if the TC stun lasts longer than time to cast. Further, I hope FB and TC get their teeth back.
I think the DoT version of FR sounds best, so I would then choose the debuff version of MoA - mostly because it seems redundant to have two DoT spells in the same book but also because I'm intrigued by the latter proposal of MoA.
>>Aether Cloak: An esoteric cyclic Aether Warding spell. It provides a barrier versus TM spells only (think Shear-like here) with the effect that if Aether Cloak wins, the TM spell is instead reflected at its full strength back at the caster.
Awesome. I don't PVP much, so please add in more PVE TM so I can finally use this spell because it sounds awesome.
VoI taking multiple hits sounds great. I like the balance struck between AC and VoI(strong one-shot vs. resistance over time).
>>Flame Shockwave. Changes (at caster option upon cast) the damage of Shockwave to be primarily fire instead of impact.
"instead of impact" leads me to believe shockwave gets damage back. I really really hate to see damage go away from PW, mostly because *internal damage* is
just so sweet. However, PW's utility will be huge even without the engagement rewrite. This is
giving WMs a major tactical engagement tool.
It would be cool if AeG, the other Elemental Transformation spell you listed, had a similar synergy with Shockwave that MoF does since it sounds like VoI
synergy is going away? Also, I'd like to create mud with a Water + Earth spell and then shockwave it to watch...well whatever would happen with that. Or give it to the rangers, whatever. They need more roots and vines spells.
YS: Dart has been saying that Armor skill will mean something for years now, so I can only hope that the power of this spell is transferred correctly. YS has allowed us to essentially move one step up the critter ladder than we could without it, tingle and SUF another step - or two.
The ability to eliminate the parry skill is a massive debuff, and I can see why it would be nerfed, but boy do I not want to see it go. Likewise, losing SuF's agility buff is a bummer.
#7) Prerequisites are not listed, but they won't be the same. We haven't even begun to look at that yet.
Here's an idea: get rid of prereqs. Make every spell worth spending a slot on based on its own merits, rather than the merit of necessity. You're moving in that direction, why not GO there?
All in all I'm on the fence.
>>Arc Light:An advanced Electric Debilitation spell. Magic vs. Reflex. It will stun the target, do non-lethal damage to their head, and ignite naphtha.
Non-lethal damage to their head. I'm pleasantly intrigued.
>>Static Discharge:Candidate for Removal due to obsolescence with other WM disablers. Discharged Ethereal Shields no longer exist or are needed.
Tingle seems to take its place and turns into something akin to the cleric's Malediction, then loses its most valuable attribute: disarming. Yet we keep air bubble whose sole function could be the tertiary function of any number of other spells.
The changes to LB, CL, and GZ are all great. Sounds like LB may turn back to being the TM trainer of old and CL returns to crowd control. Missile GZ is awesome. Curious about the hinted spell in the ball lightning writeup.
MoF: SuF loses its agility buff, which is huge, and MoF gains it by turning you into the Human (or olvi) Torch. I'd don't see the mechanism of action here. I'm more agile because I can flicker? I guess I can see it; I'm mostly bitter about losing SuF's agility buff.
I can see a 1 - 2 punch of Frostbite (stamina hit) followed by thunderclap and/or tingle(magic vs. fortitude (ie magic vs. stamina)) being awesome. That is, if the TC stun lasts longer than time to cast. Further, I hope FB and TC get their teeth back.
I think the DoT version of FR sounds best, so I would then choose the debuff version of MoA - mostly because it seems redundant to have two DoT spells in the same book but also because I'm intrigued by the latter proposal of MoA.
>>Aether Cloak: An esoteric cyclic Aether Warding spell. It provides a barrier versus TM spells only (think Shear-like here) with the effect that if Aether Cloak wins, the TM spell is instead reflected at its full strength back at the caster.
Awesome. I don't PVP much, so please add in more PVE TM so I can finally use this spell because it sounds awesome.
VoI taking multiple hits sounds great. I like the balance struck between AC and VoI(strong one-shot vs. resistance over time).
>>Flame Shockwave. Changes (at caster option upon cast) the damage of Shockwave to be primarily fire instead of impact.
"instead of impact" leads me to believe shockwave gets damage back. I really really hate to see damage go away from PW, mostly because *internal damage* is
just so sweet. However, PW's utility will be huge even without the engagement rewrite. This is
giving WMs a major tactical engagement tool.
It would be cool if AeG, the other Elemental Transformation spell you listed, had a similar synergy with Shockwave that MoF does since it sounds like VoI
synergy is going away? Also, I'd like to create mud with a Water + Earth spell and then shockwave it to watch...well whatever would happen with that. Or give it to the rangers, whatever. They need more roots and vines spells.
YS: Dart has been saying that Armor skill will mean something for years now, so I can only hope that the power of this spell is transferred correctly. YS has allowed us to essentially move one step up the critter ladder than we could without it, tingle and SUF another step - or two.
The ability to eliminate the parry skill is a massive debuff, and I can see why it would be nerfed, but boy do I not want to see it go. Likewise, losing SuF's agility buff is a bummer.
#7) Prerequisites are not listed, but they won't be the same. We haven't even begun to look at that yet.
Here's an idea: get rid of prereqs. Make every spell worth spending a slot on based on its own merits, rather than the merit of necessity. You're moving in that direction, why not GO there?
All in all I'm on the fence.
DR-ZEYURN
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/20/2010 01:14 AM CDT
>>Static Discharge:Candidate for Removal due to obsolescence with other WM disablers. Discharged Ethereal Shields no longer exist or are needed.
>Tingle seems to take its place and turns into something akin to the cleric's Malediction, then loses its most valuable attribute: disarming. Yet we keep air bubble whose sole function could be the tertiary function of any number of other spells.
No, the place of Static Discharge would be best fit by Thunderclap. Thunderclap won't have a reuse time, won't stun the caster, and generally be much nicer to use overall. I don't really see that the WM guild needs two area effect Magic vs Fortitude stun spells. The amount of TM spells will at least have different damage types.
People seem to really like the Tingle drop functions, and it would not upset me to put that back in.
I don't actually expect Air Bubble to be picked by many people but 'breathe underwater' is worth a spell slot so we separated it back out so it wasn't harming one of your other spells by existing there.
>MoF: SuF loses its agility buff, which is huge, and MoF gains it by turning you into the Human (or olvi) Torch. I'd don't see the mechanism of action here. I'm more agile because I can flicker?
We debated this a while, the idea is to draw upon the dancing nature of flames. It'd work just as well as an Air thing but Mantle of Flame was already 'there' and the fire visual seems more interesting to me.
Earth magic just simply isn't going to make you quicker, it had to go.
>>Flame Shockwave. Changes (at caster option upon cast) the damage of Shockwave to be primarily fire instead of impact.
>"instead of impact" leads me to believe shockwave gets damage back.
Shockwave is a damaging TM spell, similar to Chain Lightning. It also has an additional effect. Furthermore, if you wish to spend an extra spell slot on the Metaspell, you will be allowed to use a fire version of Shockwave. This will not require Mantle of Flame to be active.
>Here's an idea: get rid of prereqs. Make every spell worth spending a slot on based on its own merits, rather than the merit of necessity. You're moving in that direction, why not GO there?
Pre-requisites still serve an important function. You can't learn to create giant rains of fire if you haven't learned to fling fire shards. Pre-requisites will be less than they were in Magic 2.0, the idea is to move them along thematic bents. Also, Magic 3.0 introduces the idea of 'either / or' prerequisites. So a spell could be allowed to have the prerequisite of 'Fire Ball' or 'Fire Rain' as opposed to both or a specific one.
-Z
>Tingle seems to take its place and turns into something akin to the cleric's Malediction, then loses its most valuable attribute: disarming. Yet we keep air bubble whose sole function could be the tertiary function of any number of other spells.
No, the place of Static Discharge would be best fit by Thunderclap. Thunderclap won't have a reuse time, won't stun the caster, and generally be much nicer to use overall. I don't really see that the WM guild needs two area effect Magic vs Fortitude stun spells. The amount of TM spells will at least have different damage types.
People seem to really like the Tingle drop functions, and it would not upset me to put that back in.
I don't actually expect Air Bubble to be picked by many people but 'breathe underwater' is worth a spell slot so we separated it back out so it wasn't harming one of your other spells by existing there.
>MoF: SuF loses its agility buff, which is huge, and MoF gains it by turning you into the Human (or olvi) Torch. I'd don't see the mechanism of action here. I'm more agile because I can flicker?
We debated this a while, the idea is to draw upon the dancing nature of flames. It'd work just as well as an Air thing but Mantle of Flame was already 'there' and the fire visual seems more interesting to me.
Earth magic just simply isn't going to make you quicker, it had to go.
>>Flame Shockwave. Changes (at caster option upon cast) the damage of Shockwave to be primarily fire instead of impact.
>"instead of impact" leads me to believe shockwave gets damage back.
Shockwave is a damaging TM spell, similar to Chain Lightning. It also has an additional effect. Furthermore, if you wish to spend an extra spell slot on the Metaspell, you will be allowed to use a fire version of Shockwave. This will not require Mantle of Flame to be active.
>Here's an idea: get rid of prereqs. Make every spell worth spending a slot on based on its own merits, rather than the merit of necessity. You're moving in that direction, why not GO there?
Pre-requisites still serve an important function. You can't learn to create giant rains of fire if you haven't learned to fling fire shards. Pre-requisites will be less than they were in Magic 2.0, the idea is to move them along thematic bents. Also, Magic 3.0 introduces the idea of 'either / or' prerequisites. So a spell could be allowed to have the prerequisite of 'Fire Ball' or 'Fire Rain' as opposed to both or a specific one.
-Z
GAND-MAD
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/20/2010 02:44 AM CDT
I started playing around with the information in a few different formats to try to see where this leaves the guild. Overall it seems fairly solid, but I have some thoughts and suggestions.
First I broke down the spell types by element:
Then I took that and broke down the spell types by 'level':
Thinking first about how training will go, I think these two tables shed some light. Admittedly though this is still a lot of speculation given we don't fully know how exp will be awarded in Magic 3. However, here are my immediate thoughts:
The TM, debilitation, and augmentation spells seem to be fairly well represented. Utility appears to be less well represented. Unless I'm missing something, I think we're basically left with zephyr, air bubble, rising mists, and fortress of ice.
We'll remove air bubble since it doesn't appear as though it'll gain any more functionality in the new system. That just leaves zephyr, rising mists, and fortress of ice; none of which seem very well suited to repeated casting. If zephyr grants exp on pulses, that would basically solve the problem (without adding tedious pointless re-casting), but that seems like it might grant very little exp given the low effort required.
However, even given those issues, I'm not overly worried about utility learning for the guild since I suspect the weapon creation spells will fall into this group. Hopefully at least one of these will be in the advanced category to ensure learning over a large range of skill (assuming we won't be able to train with a basic or lower spell at the upper ranks). At worst we can get by with Analogous Patterns spells at low levels, but at the upper ranks I'm hoping we'll have something that doesn't involve repeatedly creating Ice Forts.
I guess some of the TM spells are flagged as utility too? Does this mean they will teach utility when cast but TM upon use in combat? If so this may solve the upper level issue as well, although it may still be an issue if there is significant reduction in exp due to it teaching more than one thing.
Overall I trust the GMs to balance this properly, but just thought I'd mention it.
Warding seems to be the least represented group. I think we just have ES, VOI, and AC? ES and Analogous Patterns can cover the low end. I'm guessing that VOI will be recastable to refresh it and teach each cast, or that AC will teach a decent amount each pulse such that it makes warding reasonably trainable.
Again, I think it is probably just a matter of the GMs balancing this properly, which I'm sure they wouldn't leave us hanging. I don't exactly expect each category to be extremely easily trained by any particular guild (ie some will be easier for some than others and presumably each guild will have at least one that is a bit more difficult to train), but I don't really expect them to leave us in a situation where it is more or less untrainable. So given that, like I said it seems like a fairly solid setup.
So given that the training concerns seems more or less without issue, I then took a look at functionality. I broke down the different effects with regard to the level of the effect. I split them into a different set of categories than the actual magic types, but I think it still gets to the heart of what is available to a war mage:
Of particular note I think is the complete lack of representation of the lore skillset. I'm going to suggest a couple of spells here that may help bridge that gap:
...guess I'll have to do this in two posts...see my next post for the rest of this and thanks for reading if you're still with me.
-Gandoloth
First I broke down the spell types by element:
| Aether* | *Electric* | *Fire* | *Water* | *Earth* | *Air | ||
| Intro Ward | Intro TM | Intro TM | Intro TM | Intro TM | Intro Aug | ||
| Basic Aug | Adv Debil | Basic TM | Adv Debil | Basic TM | Basic Aug | ||
| Adv Aug | Adv Debil | Basic Aug | Adv Debil | Basic Debil | Basic Aug | ||
| Eso Ward | Adv TM | Adv TM | Adv Utility | Adv Debil | Basic Utility | ||
| Eso TM | Adv Utility/TM | Adv Ward | Adv Aug | Basic Utility | |||
| Adv TM or Intro Debil | Eso Utility | Eso TM | Basic TM | ||||
| Eso Aug | Eso TM | Eso Utility/TM | Adv TM | ||||
| Eso TM? | Eso Aug | Adv Debil | |||||
| Adv Debil | |||||||
| Eso TM | |||||||
| Eso Utility/TM |
Then I took that and broke down the spell types by 'level':
| Intro* | *Basic* | *Advanced* | *Esoteric | |||
| Augmentation | 1 | 4 | 2 | 2 | ||
| Debilitation | 0 | 1 | 7 | 0 | ||
| Utility | 0 | 2 | 2 | 3 | ||
| Warding | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | ||
| TM | 4 | 3 | 5 | 7 |
Thinking first about how training will go, I think these two tables shed some light. Admittedly though this is still a lot of speculation given we don't fully know how exp will be awarded in Magic 3. However, here are my immediate thoughts:
The TM, debilitation, and augmentation spells seem to be fairly well represented. Utility appears to be less well represented. Unless I'm missing something, I think we're basically left with zephyr, air bubble, rising mists, and fortress of ice.
We'll remove air bubble since it doesn't appear as though it'll gain any more functionality in the new system. That just leaves zephyr, rising mists, and fortress of ice; none of which seem very well suited to repeated casting. If zephyr grants exp on pulses, that would basically solve the problem (without adding tedious pointless re-casting), but that seems like it might grant very little exp given the low effort required.
However, even given those issues, I'm not overly worried about utility learning for the guild since I suspect the weapon creation spells will fall into this group. Hopefully at least one of these will be in the advanced category to ensure learning over a large range of skill (assuming we won't be able to train with a basic or lower spell at the upper ranks). At worst we can get by with Analogous Patterns spells at low levels, but at the upper ranks I'm hoping we'll have something that doesn't involve repeatedly creating Ice Forts.
I guess some of the TM spells are flagged as utility too? Does this mean they will teach utility when cast but TM upon use in combat? If so this may solve the upper level issue as well, although it may still be an issue if there is significant reduction in exp due to it teaching more than one thing.
Overall I trust the GMs to balance this properly, but just thought I'd mention it.
Warding seems to be the least represented group. I think we just have ES, VOI, and AC? ES and Analogous Patterns can cover the low end. I'm guessing that VOI will be recastable to refresh it and teach each cast, or that AC will teach a decent amount each pulse such that it makes warding reasonably trainable.
Again, I think it is probably just a matter of the GMs balancing this properly, which I'm sure they wouldn't leave us hanging. I don't exactly expect each category to be extremely easily trained by any particular guild (ie some will be easier for some than others and presumably each guild will have at least one that is a bit more difficult to train), but I don't really expect them to leave us in a situation where it is more or less untrainable. So given that, like I said it seems like a fairly solid setup.
So given that the training concerns seems more or less without issue, I then took a look at functionality. I broke down the different effects with regard to the level of the effect. I split them into a different set of categories than the actual magic types, but I think it still gets to the heart of what is available to a war mage:
| Intro* | *Basic* | *Advanced* | *Esoteric | |||
| Buff | Ranged Weapons | TM | Room Mana | Agility/Melee | ||
| Fire Weapon | Stealth | Strength/Stamina/Shield | ||||
| Fatigue Recovery | Balance/Parry | |||||
| Evasion/Reflex | ||||||
| Armor Skill | ||||||
| Offense | Multishot Electrical Damage | Single Shot Fire (piercing?) Damage | Stun (MvR) | AOE Electrical Damage | ||
| Multishot Fire Damage | Multishot Piercing Damage? | Agi/Ref Debuff (MvF) | AOE Fire Damage | |||
| Single Shot Cold Damage | Immobilization | Electrical Damage (ignores shield) | Melee AOE Slicing Damage? | |||
| Single Shot Piercing Damage? | Single Shot Slicing Damage? | Single Shot Fire Damage | Melee AOE Piercing Damage/Knockback | |||
| Stored Fire Damage | Blunt Damage | |||||
| Fire Damage Over Time | AOE Blunt Damage/Knockback | |||||
| Stamina/Fatigue (MvF) | AOE Fire Damage/Knockback | |||||
| Knockdown/Stun (MvR) | Stored Blunt/Slicing/Piercing Damage | |||||
| Single/AOE knockdown/unbalance (MvR) | ||||||
| Combat Range Reversal | ||||||
| Balance/Offense Debuff (MvW) | ||||||
| AOE Stun (MvF) | ||||||
| Defense | Elemental Damage | TM | TM | |||
| Other | Underwater Breathing | Light Source | ||||
| Room Creation | ||||||
| MvF = Magic vs Fortitude | ||||||
| MvR = Magic vs Reflex | ||||||
| MvW = Magic vs Will |
Of particular note I think is the complete lack of representation of the lore skillset. I'm going to suggest a couple of spells here that may help bridge that gap:
...guess I'll have to do this in two posts...see my next post for the rest of this and thanks for reading if you're still with me.
-Gandoloth
GAND-MAD
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/20/2010 02:45 AM CDT
Of particular note I think is the complete lack of representation of the lore skillset. I'm going to suggest a couple of spells here that may help bridge that gap:
Elemancer*'*s Sight
Book: Aether
Level: Advanced
Category: Utility
Description: In most/all crafting processes, there exists two main sources of limitations: skill and material. Unlike a buff spell, this spell does not improve skill. Instead it allows the mage to see into the material that is being worked with to best avoid the natural defects. As a result, the occurances where material defects interrupt the crafting process are greatly reduced. As an example: In carving, it is possible that you will run across a dark spot, rough patches, or other defects that are based upon the material rather than skill. This spell will reduce the likelihood that those will pop up during the carving process (and presumably many other crafting skills will have analogous situations that this spell could apply to). The end result wouldn't be any better, but the mage would get there faster because they wouldn't have to stop and repair material based defects.
As another lore-based effect, this spell (or possibly as another spell) would add a line to creature appraisal regarding the relative resistance to the six damage types (or bonus that effect if the ability is given to everyone). Here we're applying magic to lore in a very war mage like manner. The ability to see special details about materials in this way could also help be a special thing for war mages in terms of plot hooks for events.
Lava Forge
Book: Earth
Level: Advanced
Category: Utility
Description: This spell helps remove the limitation of needing to be in a specific building to forge an item by creating one in a manner similar to stone seat (though obviously much more complex). A fully functional forge rises out of the ground, allowing for the manufacture of items from start to finish at any location. This is a cyclical spell and will only last as long as it is held. Using in combat will temporarily disable the ability to use the forge, until all combat actions have completed and some cooldown period has passed.
The heat of the forge is lava driven, and is a function of the mage's skill. More skill results in hotter lava and quicker ability to create items, with a maximum about as quickly as a permanent forge. The pouring process also creates molds on par with the mage's skill. As a result, if the mage's magic skills aren't up to snuff, they may also be taking a penalty to the final item. So for example, let's say the magic skill caps the mold quality at roughtly 67%. That is to say: if a mage has 300 Utility Magic skill and 200 smithing skill, there is no penalty. However, if that same mage has 250 smithing skill, there would be a penalty to anything over the 200 point (ie the 67% of 300 magic skill). Therefore there are limitations that may make the forging of exceptional items better in a real forge. However for general training purposes, if you have the materials on hand you can create items anywhere, and field repair items easier.
I could see such a spell being a shared spell between the war mage and bard guilds.
Basically we're again reducing some of the hassles of the crafting systems without actually increasing the quality of the final product that is created. I'm not sure how much of this would be considered acceptable under the new systems, but those are just a couple of basic spell ideas that would apply magic to lore in a war mage way.
I'd like so see at least a little acknowledgement of the lore skillset being secondary. On a similar note, I'm not so sure we need a stealth buff. I know that may not end up being a popular position, but it really seems a stretch to the guild's main theme. While it is balanced some by bonusing foes evenly (and the war mage probably being weaker in base skill to begin with) in practice not a large number of creatures hide anyway so it is pretty well not a downside. I could see an argument being made for PvP, but I still don't think any points for that would reasonably justify it despite it being somewhat against the grain for the guild. I would somewhat prefer to see the spell go and the 'fog effect' (including hiding exits) reintroduced as a third tier water cantrip. I suspect not everyone will agree with me there though.
Some other thoughts I had while compiling the above table:
Ice patch with knockdown and a stun: I was under the impression that these debuffs would not stack. I like the idea of it going back to a debilitating spell, but unless the knockdown is just for flavor, I'm not sure its purpose. Presumably any creature will just stand up right after anyway so it wouldn't be like we would get a longer but weaker debuff of them being knocked down after the stun wears off. Maybe I'm missing something?
Arc Light seems somewhat redundant with Ice Patch in the 'single target stun' category. Perhaps they will be implemented differently such that one is more snap-castable or something to differentiate them, but I think one may benefit from at least being a different spell contest type.
Tingle: I would like for the spell to continue to force an object out of someone's hand. I would be shocked if anyone was still planning to use it for item theft, considering it has been a really long time now that there was placed special protection against anyone but the target from picking up the item again (for a few minutes I think the effect lasts?). I wouldn't mind that protection, or some similar type of protection from being carried over to the new version.
Ball Lightning: I look forward to hearing the new spell that will replace this with similar functionality. However, instead of scrapping this spell, I think it may be time to revisit the idea of a spell that is similar to current DFA but ignores something other than shield. Perhaps it can only be parried or some other combination of defenses. With combat going to a system that uses a significant fraction of a defense that isn't applicable, I think this is much more reasonable now. A person stanced to 60/60/60 with three equal defenses would not be penalized nearly as much by this new type of attack. In cases where you know your foe's best defense, you can potentially throw this in to exploit their weaker defenses, and due to the new combat system they wouldn't be left completely defenseless.
Static Discharge: I think rather than the stun, this was more often used to help dial in the offensive strength of attacking creatures by adding nerve damage. If that functionality is considered to be acceptable, I could see this going a couple of ways. Make the spell only do non-lethal nerve damage. Alternatively, it could just charge up the air around the mage and thus any melee attack made against the mage would shock the attacker. This could manifest two ways as well. It could either apply nerve damage at that point. Alternatively, it could be considered a 'temporary' shock, and only apply 'effective nerve damage' to that given attack. In this way, the mage would benefit from a lowered attack from melee attackers while the spell is up, but would not be able to dance forever with creatures having shot nerves. This non-damaging effect would also likely allow it to be placed in the warding category, which we currently have so few spells in.
Veil of Ice: I'm somewhat disappointed in the loss of being able to cast on a creature and myself to create a two layer level of defense. However, it sounds as though we may get a few defenses out of it per cast as a standard anyway, so it probably won't be an issue.
Air Bubble: Part of me wants this to turn into an actual spell, with the water breathing thing as a side effect similar to how MoF creates a light source as a side effect. It seems somewhat analogous in that the light source lets you access a handful of rooms and hunting areas that involve darkness, whereas this could do something and still let you access the handful of rooms and hunting areas that involve deep water. Perhaps it could also aid in underwater actions to make underwater hunting more viable as well as let you breathe there? I'm not sure what else it could do that wouldn't throw it into the old style of 'doing a bunch of mostly useless things to make up for them being more or less useless'. I just feel it shouldn't be basically a joke of a spell about on par with Glythtide's Gift.
Fire Rain: Based on the character I've built, I more than likely won't be getting this regardless of what it becomes, but I think option 2 would likely add the most functionality that isn't otherwise seen. Option 1 seems like it is just a multi-shot version of CL, which I'm not sure we need. Option 3 I guess is alright, but doesn't seem to quite fill as big a hole as option 2 seems to.
Mark of Arhat: Again, I probably won't be getting this spell due to character development reasons (although with the rewrites I may consider rewriting his backstory, we'll see), but I could see a use for both versions. You could take option 1 and make it a cyclic spell to more or less make it a single target version of Fire Rain's option 2. I think that would still be fairly useful, especially in town. I think option 2 is something that would fit the guild well too, but may make more sense as an aether spell. Is aether still allowed to do something like that, basically heighten pain for elemental damage?
I like the idea behind ignite, and look forward to see where that line of spells progresses.
I'm not sure I agree with the concerns regarding sure footing in terms of theme. I more or less viewed it in terms of the bowling shoes example given as well. However, in terms of game mechanics, I can see the desire of splitting up its effects so I have no major issues there. I think the seperate spells for parry/shield/evasion should work alright, and I like how they're coupled with other complimentary effects. For AEG though, strength and stamina in addition to shield? Is that not going to provide for a fairly lackluster effect or is the fact that it will be esoteric going to make up for that?
I guess those three will make up the core of the war mage buffs, so we'll have to wait and see the durations to see how viable they are for routine combat training.
Also, I'm not sure if I missed it, but what are the three stats that are considered in focus for war mages? I would have thought discipline would be number one considering its primary role in TM (or is that changing?), agility considering it plays a partial role in TM and weapons (which almost defines what a war mage is), and I'm not sure what the third would be. Does that just mean the spells won't cap those stats as high, or are strength and stamina in our main focus? Either way, we will have at least four stat buffs (strength, stamina, agility, reflex). I'm somewhat hoping for a discipline buff if TM still uses it as a primary stat. Perhaps something in the aether book (Elemancer's Focus?). I wouldn't be surprised to hear that a fifth stat buff would be considered too much though, even if it was out of our main focus and thus at a lower level.
I agree with the removal of Earth Sense. I'm sure it has its uses, but it was always one of those spells that I couldn't justify getting since I viewed it as basically counting as another spellslot for the higher tier more useful spells.
Fist of Stone is going away? This is another one I haven't bothered to get since I've more or less viewed it as just an additional spellslot cost to get better spells. I guess the weapon creation portion of it will come back as a stand alone spell with the low level TM being taken up by stone strike instead?
Tailwind is losing its defense against ranged? I don't think it was all that great to begin with, so I suppose it isn't that big of a loss. I somewhat like the idea of an air based mundane weapon defense though. There used to be a planned spell by the name of Jesram's Lattice that would push mundane weapons back to soften their blow or deflect them. I could see that being reintroduced as a basic air warding spell. It would fill the gap of having 0 basic warding spells, although I could see an argument made against another air spell and possibly against giving war mages a damage reduction spell.
It looks to me like we have all the major damage types covered. Blunt damage could maybe use a more straightforward spell than MaB and BG. Other than that it seems like we'll have a single target spell for each damage type, as well as a mix of multi-shot and AOE for basically everything.
Thanks for posting that, and if you made it through all of my comments then thanks for reading. Again, there is a lot there, so I may have missed something. Hopefully most of this feedback will be useful though.
-Gandoloth
Elemancer*'*s Sight
Book: Aether
Level: Advanced
Category: Utility
Description: In most/all crafting processes, there exists two main sources of limitations: skill and material. Unlike a buff spell, this spell does not improve skill. Instead it allows the mage to see into the material that is being worked with to best avoid the natural defects. As a result, the occurances where material defects interrupt the crafting process are greatly reduced. As an example: In carving, it is possible that you will run across a dark spot, rough patches, or other defects that are based upon the material rather than skill. This spell will reduce the likelihood that those will pop up during the carving process (and presumably many other crafting skills will have analogous situations that this spell could apply to). The end result wouldn't be any better, but the mage would get there faster because they wouldn't have to stop and repair material based defects.
As another lore-based effect, this spell (or possibly as another spell) would add a line to creature appraisal regarding the relative resistance to the six damage types (or bonus that effect if the ability is given to everyone). Here we're applying magic to lore in a very war mage like manner. The ability to see special details about materials in this way could also help be a special thing for war mages in terms of plot hooks for events.
Lava Forge
Book: Earth
Level: Advanced
Category: Utility
Description: This spell helps remove the limitation of needing to be in a specific building to forge an item by creating one in a manner similar to stone seat (though obviously much more complex). A fully functional forge rises out of the ground, allowing for the manufacture of items from start to finish at any location. This is a cyclical spell and will only last as long as it is held. Using in combat will temporarily disable the ability to use the forge, until all combat actions have completed and some cooldown period has passed.
The heat of the forge is lava driven, and is a function of the mage's skill. More skill results in hotter lava and quicker ability to create items, with a maximum about as quickly as a permanent forge. The pouring process also creates molds on par with the mage's skill. As a result, if the mage's magic skills aren't up to snuff, they may also be taking a penalty to the final item. So for example, let's say the magic skill caps the mold quality at roughtly 67%. That is to say: if a mage has 300 Utility Magic skill and 200 smithing skill, there is no penalty. However, if that same mage has 250 smithing skill, there would be a penalty to anything over the 200 point (ie the 67% of 300 magic skill). Therefore there are limitations that may make the forging of exceptional items better in a real forge. However for general training purposes, if you have the materials on hand you can create items anywhere, and field repair items easier.
I could see such a spell being a shared spell between the war mage and bard guilds.
Basically we're again reducing some of the hassles of the crafting systems without actually increasing the quality of the final product that is created. I'm not sure how much of this would be considered acceptable under the new systems, but those are just a couple of basic spell ideas that would apply magic to lore in a war mage way.
I'd like so see at least a little acknowledgement of the lore skillset being secondary. On a similar note, I'm not so sure we need a stealth buff. I know that may not end up being a popular position, but it really seems a stretch to the guild's main theme. While it is balanced some by bonusing foes evenly (and the war mage probably being weaker in base skill to begin with) in practice not a large number of creatures hide anyway so it is pretty well not a downside. I could see an argument being made for PvP, but I still don't think any points for that would reasonably justify it despite it being somewhat against the grain for the guild. I would somewhat prefer to see the spell go and the 'fog effect' (including hiding exits) reintroduced as a third tier water cantrip. I suspect not everyone will agree with me there though.
Some other thoughts I had while compiling the above table:
Ice patch with knockdown and a stun: I was under the impression that these debuffs would not stack. I like the idea of it going back to a debilitating spell, but unless the knockdown is just for flavor, I'm not sure its purpose. Presumably any creature will just stand up right after anyway so it wouldn't be like we would get a longer but weaker debuff of them being knocked down after the stun wears off. Maybe I'm missing something?
Arc Light seems somewhat redundant with Ice Patch in the 'single target stun' category. Perhaps they will be implemented differently such that one is more snap-castable or something to differentiate them, but I think one may benefit from at least being a different spell contest type.
Tingle: I would like for the spell to continue to force an object out of someone's hand. I would be shocked if anyone was still planning to use it for item theft, considering it has been a really long time now that there was placed special protection against anyone but the target from picking up the item again (for a few minutes I think the effect lasts?). I wouldn't mind that protection, or some similar type of protection from being carried over to the new version.
Ball Lightning: I look forward to hearing the new spell that will replace this with similar functionality. However, instead of scrapping this spell, I think it may be time to revisit the idea of a spell that is similar to current DFA but ignores something other than shield. Perhaps it can only be parried or some other combination of defenses. With combat going to a system that uses a significant fraction of a defense that isn't applicable, I think this is much more reasonable now. A person stanced to 60/60/60 with three equal defenses would not be penalized nearly as much by this new type of attack. In cases where you know your foe's best defense, you can potentially throw this in to exploit their weaker defenses, and due to the new combat system they wouldn't be left completely defenseless.
Static Discharge: I think rather than the stun, this was more often used to help dial in the offensive strength of attacking creatures by adding nerve damage. If that functionality is considered to be acceptable, I could see this going a couple of ways. Make the spell only do non-lethal nerve damage. Alternatively, it could just charge up the air around the mage and thus any melee attack made against the mage would shock the attacker. This could manifest two ways as well. It could either apply nerve damage at that point. Alternatively, it could be considered a 'temporary' shock, and only apply 'effective nerve damage' to that given attack. In this way, the mage would benefit from a lowered attack from melee attackers while the spell is up, but would not be able to dance forever with creatures having shot nerves. This non-damaging effect would also likely allow it to be placed in the warding category, which we currently have so few spells in.
Veil of Ice: I'm somewhat disappointed in the loss of being able to cast on a creature and myself to create a two layer level of defense. However, it sounds as though we may get a few defenses out of it per cast as a standard anyway, so it probably won't be an issue.
Air Bubble: Part of me wants this to turn into an actual spell, with the water breathing thing as a side effect similar to how MoF creates a light source as a side effect. It seems somewhat analogous in that the light source lets you access a handful of rooms and hunting areas that involve darkness, whereas this could do something and still let you access the handful of rooms and hunting areas that involve deep water. Perhaps it could also aid in underwater actions to make underwater hunting more viable as well as let you breathe there? I'm not sure what else it could do that wouldn't throw it into the old style of 'doing a bunch of mostly useless things to make up for them being more or less useless'. I just feel it shouldn't be basically a joke of a spell about on par with Glythtide's Gift.
Fire Rain: Based on the character I've built, I more than likely won't be getting this regardless of what it becomes, but I think option 2 would likely add the most functionality that isn't otherwise seen. Option 1 seems like it is just a multi-shot version of CL, which I'm not sure we need. Option 3 I guess is alright, but doesn't seem to quite fill as big a hole as option 2 seems to.
Mark of Arhat: Again, I probably won't be getting this spell due to character development reasons (although with the rewrites I may consider rewriting his backstory, we'll see), but I could see a use for both versions. You could take option 1 and make it a cyclic spell to more or less make it a single target version of Fire Rain's option 2. I think that would still be fairly useful, especially in town. I think option 2 is something that would fit the guild well too, but may make more sense as an aether spell. Is aether still allowed to do something like that, basically heighten pain for elemental damage?
I like the idea behind ignite, and look forward to see where that line of spells progresses.
I'm not sure I agree with the concerns regarding sure footing in terms of theme. I more or less viewed it in terms of the bowling shoes example given as well. However, in terms of game mechanics, I can see the desire of splitting up its effects so I have no major issues there. I think the seperate spells for parry/shield/evasion should work alright, and I like how they're coupled with other complimentary effects. For AEG though, strength and stamina in addition to shield? Is that not going to provide for a fairly lackluster effect or is the fact that it will be esoteric going to make up for that?
I guess those three will make up the core of the war mage buffs, so we'll have to wait and see the durations to see how viable they are for routine combat training.
Also, I'm not sure if I missed it, but what are the three stats that are considered in focus for war mages? I would have thought discipline would be number one considering its primary role in TM (or is that changing?), agility considering it plays a partial role in TM and weapons (which almost defines what a war mage is), and I'm not sure what the third would be. Does that just mean the spells won't cap those stats as high, or are strength and stamina in our main focus? Either way, we will have at least four stat buffs (strength, stamina, agility, reflex). I'm somewhat hoping for a discipline buff if TM still uses it as a primary stat. Perhaps something in the aether book (Elemancer's Focus?). I wouldn't be surprised to hear that a fifth stat buff would be considered too much though, even if it was out of our main focus and thus at a lower level.
I agree with the removal of Earth Sense. I'm sure it has its uses, but it was always one of those spells that I couldn't justify getting since I viewed it as basically counting as another spellslot for the higher tier more useful spells.
Fist of Stone is going away? This is another one I haven't bothered to get since I've more or less viewed it as just an additional spellslot cost to get better spells. I guess the weapon creation portion of it will come back as a stand alone spell with the low level TM being taken up by stone strike instead?
Tailwind is losing its defense against ranged? I don't think it was all that great to begin with, so I suppose it isn't that big of a loss. I somewhat like the idea of an air based mundane weapon defense though. There used to be a planned spell by the name of Jesram's Lattice that would push mundane weapons back to soften their blow or deflect them. I could see that being reintroduced as a basic air warding spell. It would fill the gap of having 0 basic warding spells, although I could see an argument made against another air spell and possibly against giving war mages a damage reduction spell.
It looks to me like we have all the major damage types covered. Blunt damage could maybe use a more straightforward spell than MaB and BG. Other than that it seems like we'll have a single target spell for each damage type, as well as a mix of multi-shot and AOE for basically everything.
Thanks for posting that, and if you made it through all of my comments then thanks for reading. Again, there is a lot there, so I may have missed something. Hopefully most of this feedback will be useful though.
-Gandoloth
NJP
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/20/2010 03:01 AM CDT
I don't play a WM, so I'll admit I didn't even read that second post, GAND-MAD.
Just wanted to say thanks, however, for putting that data into those tables in your first post. Really made it a lot easier to wrap my brain around some of the new concepts and designs being presented.
Ogdaro
Just wanted to say thanks, however, for putting that data into those tables in your first post. Really made it a lot easier to wrap my brain around some of the new concepts and designs being presented.
Ogdaro
ROBERTDH
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/20/2010 03:13 AM CDT
I suspect a lot of War Mage players would prefer breathing underwater be an AP effect. Let people pick it up if they want but don't leave it in our spellbooks. It's kind of a subject of embarrassment for us.
What's a metaspell?
Is anyone else disappointed about metaspell and expanded Cast options replacing some aspects of spell synergy? The forums at least would indicate we somehow like effects that require casting multiple spells.
"Magic has rules and so does posting on these forums." -Annwyl
What's a metaspell?
Is anyone else disappointed about metaspell and expanded Cast options replacing some aspects of spell synergy? The forums at least would indicate we somehow like effects that require casting multiple spells.
"Magic has rules and so does posting on these forums." -Annwyl
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/20/2010 03:20 AM CDT
>>On a similar note, I'm not so sure we need a stealth buff. I know that may not end up being a popular position, but it really seems a stretch to the guild's main theme.
We agree. But it's pretty hard to conceive of a spell that does what Rising Mists does that doesn't boost stealth in some way, and the spell isn't irritating or non-functional enough to be a removal candidate. So we shrugged and left it as a logical aberrant.
>>Static Discharge: I think rather than the stun, this was more often used to help dial in the offensive strength of attacking creatures by adding nerve damage. If that functionality is considered to be acceptable, I could see this going a couple of ways. Make the spell only do non-lethal nerve damage.
Static Discharge was a removal candidate for two related reasons.
1) Its defensive utility interaction with Ethereal Shield was outmoded.
2) Attacking someone with zaps of static electricty is silly, especially when at a similar level you're already conjuring small lightning blasts.
>>For AEG though, strength and stamina in addition to shield? Is that not going to provide for a fairly lackluster effect or is the fact that it will be esoteric going to make up for that?
The Magic 3.0 design philosophy is that any magical effect you get is at its maximum potency possible for your guild (based on sphere of influence). The buffs of AEG will not suffer for being clustered together, it just means AEG costs a lot more in terms of spell slots than a spell that just did one of those things.
>>I'm somewhat hoping for a discipline buff if TM still uses it as a primary stat. Perhaps something in the aether book (Elemancer's Focus?).
With the exception of Elemental Transformations, I am trying to hold us to describing conventional Warrior Mage spells as literal elemental manifestations. Elemental spells conjuring something physical (within Elanthia's loose definition of physics) without delving into symbolic or mystic-minded effects. In that model, it's very hard to conceive of a conventional Warrior Mage mental buff.
Chances are that sort of thing will need to wait for Hylomorphic Sorcery, which is when the elements let their hair down and start doing freaky things.
>>Tailwind is losing its defense against ranged? I don't think it was all that great to begin with, so I suppose it isn't that big of a loss. I somewhat like the idea of an air based mundane weapon defense though.
Tailwind as it stands today would be a very expensive spell, and frankly one that despite that is so outside the normal range of Warrior Mage functioning that it'd be near worthless at the cost. We decided to remove the debuff element to make it a specialized, cheap spell for Warrior Mages that want to play with it.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
We agree. But it's pretty hard to conceive of a spell that does what Rising Mists does that doesn't boost stealth in some way, and the spell isn't irritating or non-functional enough to be a removal candidate. So we shrugged and left it as a logical aberrant.
>>Static Discharge: I think rather than the stun, this was more often used to help dial in the offensive strength of attacking creatures by adding nerve damage. If that functionality is considered to be acceptable, I could see this going a couple of ways. Make the spell only do non-lethal nerve damage.
Static Discharge was a removal candidate for two related reasons.
1) Its defensive utility interaction with Ethereal Shield was outmoded.
2) Attacking someone with zaps of static electricty is silly, especially when at a similar level you're already conjuring small lightning blasts.
>>For AEG though, strength and stamina in addition to shield? Is that not going to provide for a fairly lackluster effect or is the fact that it will be esoteric going to make up for that?
The Magic 3.0 design philosophy is that any magical effect you get is at its maximum potency possible for your guild (based on sphere of influence). The buffs of AEG will not suffer for being clustered together, it just means AEG costs a lot more in terms of spell slots than a spell that just did one of those things.
>>I'm somewhat hoping for a discipline buff if TM still uses it as a primary stat. Perhaps something in the aether book (Elemancer's Focus?).
With the exception of Elemental Transformations, I am trying to hold us to describing conventional Warrior Mage spells as literal elemental manifestations. Elemental spells conjuring something physical (within Elanthia's loose definition of physics) without delving into symbolic or mystic-minded effects. In that model, it's very hard to conceive of a conventional Warrior Mage mental buff.
Chances are that sort of thing will need to wait for Hylomorphic Sorcery, which is when the elements let their hair down and start doing freaky things.
>>Tailwind is losing its defense against ranged? I don't think it was all that great to begin with, so I suppose it isn't that big of a loss. I somewhat like the idea of an air based mundane weapon defense though.
Tailwind as it stands today would be a very expensive spell, and frankly one that despite that is so outside the normal range of Warrior Mage functioning that it'd be near worthless at the cost. We decided to remove the debuff element to make it a specialized, cheap spell for Warrior Mages that want to play with it.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/20/2010 03:26 AM CDT
>>What's a metaspell?
Broadly, a spell that you don't cast. Whatever the metaspell does, you gain it simply by knowing it.
The most common usage in Magic 3.0 is for spells that exist only to modify another spell. The purpose of this is to break apart the cost of some spells into a central spell and then optional additions at further cost. For example, Moonblade and Shape Moonblade.
It can also be used when we want you to pay for a guild ability with a spell slot, such as the Necromancers' DEPART DEATH ability, which is activated upon learning Spiteful Rebirth.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
Broadly, a spell that you don't cast. Whatever the metaspell does, you gain it simply by knowing it.
The most common usage in Magic 3.0 is for spells that exist only to modify another spell. The purpose of this is to break apart the cost of some spells into a central spell and then optional additions at further cost. For example, Moonblade and Shape Moonblade.
It can also be used when we want you to pay for a guild ability with a spell slot, such as the Necromancers' DEPART DEATH ability, which is activated upon learning Spiteful Rebirth.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
GAND-MAD
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/20/2010 05:04 AM CDT
>>Just wanted to say thanks, however, for putting that data into those tables in your first post.
Sure thing. I had to format it that way to get a better feel for all that information as well.
>>Is anyone else disappointed about metaspell and expanded Cast options replacing some aspects of spell synergy?
I used to like spell synergy a lot, and have suggested quite a few spells over the years to make use of that type of functionality. The more I think about it though, it doesn't seem to work out as well as its initial appeal. At its best it seems like it just adds more time to casting. Why cast ES, MoF, and THEN shockwave, when you can just cast a flame shockwave and get the same result? Since all of these spells will be able to reach the given cap for any given character anyway, adding another damage type won't result in more damage, so you go through all that for questionable benefit. While it adds flavor, I think it just serves to bog down the spellcasting process. I think the meta-spell model will work much better in practice.
>>Static Discharge was a removal candidate for two related reasons.
>>1) Its defensive utility interaction with Ethereal Shield was outmoded.
>>2) Attacking someone with zaps of static electricty is silly, especially when at a similar level you're already conjuring small lightning blasts.
No big loss on my end, as it isn't a spell I have picked up yet. I do somewhat like the idea of being able to dial in the offenses of attacking creatures to some degree though in regard to the supposed war mage specialty of controlling the battlespace.
I'm not sure it needs to keep up the connection with ES. I've been in lightning storms before that have made my hair stand on end (which granted probably meant I was close to being struck by lightning; and at that point hadn't caused any actual damage to me), so I don't think it is too much of a stretch to apply this to Elanthian physics and just say that it is possible to charge up the air there in a similar way (minus the large storm). I could see that not being a physical property of the matter in Elanthia too I guess, but I also don't see it as that much of a leap.
In regard to hitting something with small zaps instead of a full lighting blast, I suppose I could understand that too. I guess I was thinking of it more as targetting the fine motor control of something rather than a full on attack (ie stun gun vs a regular gun). It isn't like we can dial back lightning bolt to just get a nerve damage type result (at least not in the same spirit as what SD does today). Sometimes a full on attack isn't the result you're looking for (although I guess in most cases in game this probably would be the case). I'm not quite sure the physics is quite there to support that view, but again I don't really think of it as that huge a stretch to give Elanthian physics those properties.
>>The Magic 3.0 design philosophy is that any magical effect you get is at its maximum potency possible for your guild (based on sphere of influence). The buffs of AEG will not suffer for being clustered together, it just means AEG costs a lot more in terms of spell slots than a spell that just did one of those things.
Ah, that makes sense. I knew there had to be a cost somewhere. I just have to get used to thinking about spells in this way.
>>With the exception of Elemental Transformations, I am trying to hold us to describing conventional Warrior Mage spells as literal elemental manifestations. Elemental spells conjuring something physical (within Elanthia's loose definition of physics) without delving into symbolic or mystic-minded effects. In that model, it's very hard to conceive of a conventional Warrior Mage mental buff.
Heh, actually I was thinking of it this way, but then this may be another case of me applying more attributes to the physics of Elanthia than are actually in the lore. I didn't get into too much in the other post but I was somewhat thinking about it as an Aether Transformation.
The way I was thinking about it is that the brain and senses generally rely upon electricity to function. I was thinking the mage could create a weak but specifically attuned aethereal field in their body that would result in the creation of an aethereal nervous system in parallel with their normal system (due to the nature of the interaction of electricity and aether). Basically, they're making an aether echo of their body that to some degree interacts with the electrical nature of the nervous system/brain and supports it. Rather than controlling the electricity directly through normal bodily functions, the aethereal structure allows the mage to control functions with a level of seperation that lets them focus and take a step back from normal pain. In effect, an expertise in the physical allows them to step back from the normal manner of thinking, granting them the ability to focus and seperate their mind from pain. Again, this may be a mix up of what I was thinking aether does under old/new lore, but I was thinking of it in terms of physical manipulation.
I could understand if you would view this as a bit of a stretch, but I don't think it is that bad considering there isn't a really good definition of how aether interacts with the other elements at this point. I suppose I could also see it as too closely related to what one might expect more from life mana manipulation. I'm hoping that at some point you'll write one of your lore posts to expand on the elemental planes into how they impact the real physical world in the plane of abiding and how everything comes together to create the fundamental physics of the world. While I had the above in mind, I was mostly approaching it from a mechanics standpoint, thinking that if TM is so heavily invested in the discipline stat, that it would make sense for a war mage to want to buff their discipline somehow so it seems like something that would have naturally evolved sometime in the history of the guild.
>>Tailwind as it stands today would be a very expensive spell, and frankly one that despite that is so outside the normal range of Warrior Mage functioning that it'd be near worthless at the cost.
Yeah that sounds about right. It always was somewhat of a niche spell. Any thoughts though on adding another warding spell that might gain some of that defensive aspect back, like Jesram's Lattice would have probably been (although I think that spell was planned to work on melee, or maybe melee and ranged)? Is the war mage guild meant to be very light on warding? Granted the couple spells we have seem like they'll be fairly good, but the quantity and scope is pretty drastically less than the other spell types.
-Gandoloth
Sure thing. I had to format it that way to get a better feel for all that information as well.
>>Is anyone else disappointed about metaspell and expanded Cast options replacing some aspects of spell synergy?
I used to like spell synergy a lot, and have suggested quite a few spells over the years to make use of that type of functionality. The more I think about it though, it doesn't seem to work out as well as its initial appeal. At its best it seems like it just adds more time to casting. Why cast ES, MoF, and THEN shockwave, when you can just cast a flame shockwave and get the same result? Since all of these spells will be able to reach the given cap for any given character anyway, adding another damage type won't result in more damage, so you go through all that for questionable benefit. While it adds flavor, I think it just serves to bog down the spellcasting process. I think the meta-spell model will work much better in practice.
>>Static Discharge was a removal candidate for two related reasons.
>>1) Its defensive utility interaction with Ethereal Shield was outmoded.
>>2) Attacking someone with zaps of static electricty is silly, especially when at a similar level you're already conjuring small lightning blasts.
No big loss on my end, as it isn't a spell I have picked up yet. I do somewhat like the idea of being able to dial in the offenses of attacking creatures to some degree though in regard to the supposed war mage specialty of controlling the battlespace.
I'm not sure it needs to keep up the connection with ES. I've been in lightning storms before that have made my hair stand on end (which granted probably meant I was close to being struck by lightning; and at that point hadn't caused any actual damage to me), so I don't think it is too much of a stretch to apply this to Elanthian physics and just say that it is possible to charge up the air there in a similar way (minus the large storm). I could see that not being a physical property of the matter in Elanthia too I guess, but I also don't see it as that much of a leap.
In regard to hitting something with small zaps instead of a full lighting blast, I suppose I could understand that too. I guess I was thinking of it more as targetting the fine motor control of something rather than a full on attack (ie stun gun vs a regular gun). It isn't like we can dial back lightning bolt to just get a nerve damage type result (at least not in the same spirit as what SD does today). Sometimes a full on attack isn't the result you're looking for (although I guess in most cases in game this probably would be the case). I'm not quite sure the physics is quite there to support that view, but again I don't really think of it as that huge a stretch to give Elanthian physics those properties.
>>The Magic 3.0 design philosophy is that any magical effect you get is at its maximum potency possible for your guild (based on sphere of influence). The buffs of AEG will not suffer for being clustered together, it just means AEG costs a lot more in terms of spell slots than a spell that just did one of those things.
Ah, that makes sense. I knew there had to be a cost somewhere. I just have to get used to thinking about spells in this way.
>>With the exception of Elemental Transformations, I am trying to hold us to describing conventional Warrior Mage spells as literal elemental manifestations. Elemental spells conjuring something physical (within Elanthia's loose definition of physics) without delving into symbolic or mystic-minded effects. In that model, it's very hard to conceive of a conventional Warrior Mage mental buff.
Heh, actually I was thinking of it this way, but then this may be another case of me applying more attributes to the physics of Elanthia than are actually in the lore. I didn't get into too much in the other post but I was somewhat thinking about it as an Aether Transformation.
The way I was thinking about it is that the brain and senses generally rely upon electricity to function. I was thinking the mage could create a weak but specifically attuned aethereal field in their body that would result in the creation of an aethereal nervous system in parallel with their normal system (due to the nature of the interaction of electricity and aether). Basically, they're making an aether echo of their body that to some degree interacts with the electrical nature of the nervous system/brain and supports it. Rather than controlling the electricity directly through normal bodily functions, the aethereal structure allows the mage to control functions with a level of seperation that lets them focus and take a step back from normal pain. In effect, an expertise in the physical allows them to step back from the normal manner of thinking, granting them the ability to focus and seperate their mind from pain. Again, this may be a mix up of what I was thinking aether does under old/new lore, but I was thinking of it in terms of physical manipulation.
I could understand if you would view this as a bit of a stretch, but I don't think it is that bad considering there isn't a really good definition of how aether interacts with the other elements at this point. I suppose I could also see it as too closely related to what one might expect more from life mana manipulation. I'm hoping that at some point you'll write one of your lore posts to expand on the elemental planes into how they impact the real physical world in the plane of abiding and how everything comes together to create the fundamental physics of the world. While I had the above in mind, I was mostly approaching it from a mechanics standpoint, thinking that if TM is so heavily invested in the discipline stat, that it would make sense for a war mage to want to buff their discipline somehow so it seems like something that would have naturally evolved sometime in the history of the guild.
>>Tailwind as it stands today would be a very expensive spell, and frankly one that despite that is so outside the normal range of Warrior Mage functioning that it'd be near worthless at the cost.
Yeah that sounds about right. It always was somewhat of a niche spell. Any thoughts though on adding another warding spell that might gain some of that defensive aspect back, like Jesram's Lattice would have probably been (although I think that spell was planned to work on melee, or maybe melee and ranged)? Is the war mage guild meant to be very light on warding? Granted the couple spells we have seem like they'll be fairly good, but the quantity and scope is pretty drastically less than the other spell types.
-Gandoloth
SHOGUNASSASIN429
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/20/2010 08:32 AM CDT
What's an estimated circle where a WM would have all the spells that are currently planned?
ASHAMAN1
Re: Tentative Magic 3.0 Spell List
09/20/2010 08:58 AM CDT
A thing to note, with Tingle, if the defensive change mentioned in the combat folders about using 'extra' evasion when a defense is unusable is still in the works, a debuff could work out to be stronger then a disarm. At least, from what I've read I'd rather the debuff effect on my mage then a disarm that only really slows critters down briefly, and proves a minor annoyance to players at best.
Samsaren Remlane
I will defend to your death, your right, to my opinion.
Samsaren Remlane
I will defend to your death, your right, to my opinion.
