> After all, the Immortals don't seem to be physically involved with any other planet or celestial bodies besides the moons, right? Have the moon mages with their telescopes observed any other worlds in any detail at all? Are there any signs the Immortals have just as much jurisdiction on those worlds or does history record them only fighting this planet's World Dragon for this planet's biosphere?

The World Dragon hatched out of Grazhir, which would suggest that he isn't just connected to Elanthia. Also, each of the planets is affiliated with one of the Immortals, which suggests they are involved in other planets. (Elanthia is actually affiliated with Truffenyi, for instance.)

>Have the moon mages with their telescopes observed any other worlds in any detail at all?

MM telescopes are basically hand held (or mounted). They aren't the space-borne or even massive earth-mounted telescopes we have in modern day, the technology's pretty primitive. I'd find it questionable that Elanthians have the technology to observe the other planets in great detail, since they can't even explore more than 1/3 of the planet (i.e. DR's playable surface...)

>Also, each of the planets is affiliated with one of the Immortals, which suggests they are involved in other planets. (Elanthia is actually affiliated with Truffenyi, for instance.)

Not really here or there, since that's purely related to lore in the region we play in. It's like saying the Greco Roman Pantheons must be true because we have a planet named Mars. Or the Norse mythology is true because Thursday.

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I'm a badger, I be badgerin'

I would be remiss if I didn't point out the mythological significance of Grazhir is felt to this day by Moon Mages, who have been branded the "Children of Grazhir" by some of the alien intelligences that populate the Plane of Probability.

No one knows what exactly the title represents, other than "open season."

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas

> Not really here or there, since that's purely related to lore in the region we play in. It's like saying the Greco Roman Pantheons must be true because we have a planet named Mars. Or the Norse mythology is true because Thursday.

With regard to this and the suggestion that the World Dragon was an asteroid: is there anything to suggest that what's stated in DR's lore regarding the Immortals and their various domains, etc., is actually purely the belief of characters, rather than 'true'? Given that DR actually has a dragon leading the dragon priests and crazy things like magic exist, I would think those things are quite possibly literal truth for the game.

Armifer pretty much summed it up.

Thank you for the comments on what MM telecopes can do- I was actually curious. The main point, however, was that I could find no IC way of disproving outright the hypothesis that there are multiple sets of Immortals governing their own solar systems rather than there being only 13 for the whole universe.

Sylveaus believes the 13 are very, very real- and limited. Epic beyond his comprehension, but limited.

The All-God is the one in charge of -everything- to him. Whether or not the All-God is limited or omnipotent (why delegate to 'local' Immortals, then?) he has yet to speculate upon to a significant degree.

Sylvaeus is even open to the idea that there are other Immortal beings on par in power with the 13 on/around ELANTHIA, even.... like perhaps Prydaen and Albarian gods among others completely unknown to the Realms. The 13 are just the ones that matter most to US and vice versa.

It could very well be that Paladins are possible Immortal beings in larval form (The All-God giving paladin's souls a tiny divine spark) and, given enough time, growth of character, and truly awesome and rare destiny, perhaps a fraction of a fraction of a fraction make it to that status.

Food for thought. ;)

>It could very well be that Paladins are possible Immortal beings in larval form (The All-God giving paladin's souls a tiny divine spark) and, given enough time, growth of character, and truly awesome and rare destiny, perhaps a fraction of a fraction of a fraction make it to that status.

This man blasphemes as though a Necromancer!

Just trying to reach my quota.

>>The main point, however, was that I could find no IC way of disproving outright the hypothesis that there are multiple sets of Immortals governing their own solar systems rather than there being only 13 for the whole universe.

This is, again, a situation where modern astrological knowledge is vastly different than what DR knows.

Are there other solar systems in the Elanthian universe? Do other stars have planets?

While in the real world we have some decent answers to those questions those answers are extremely recent and based on technology so far beyond what Elanthia has access to as to that they would be deemed magic. Wait. No. That was a bad example.

These questions take on a deeper meaning if you remember a discussion from the Moon Mage forums a couple of years back about the nature of Starlight vs Sunlight.

Modern science has answers. The Sun is a star. It has a specific set of properties, but it's most definitely a star. It just happens to be our star and proximity makes all the difference.

Does that mean in Elanthia the Sun is a star and they just lack the technology to prove that? That's a difficult question complicated by the fact that much of what is known at Elanthian cosmology comes from magical observations, not technological ones.

What magic does tell us is that Starlight and Sunlight different in several dramatic ways.

To a Moon Mage the Sun is largely a background element. It provides mana, it has prophetic potential, and you can focus its light in blunt ways that require heat and flash (Burn or Dazzle) but it's not terribly useful otherwise and it certainly isn't elegant. I cannot be used to make a Moonblade or Cage of Light and its of no use when crafting illusions.

While stars provide no notable mana it's entirely possible that's a function of distance (Almost no living mages can sense Er'Qutra magically either, but it provides mana to those who can sense it). They certainly have prophetic potential like the Sun but their light is even more useless to Moon Mages. There is one important exception; the Stellar Magic spellbook. This spellbook is a loose collection of spells with long and largely forgotten histories. They are not a core part of the guild's teachings and they interact with aspects of the Heavens usually neglected by Moon Mage magic. From this we know that Starlight is a fine tool when shaping illusions and in sharp contrast to Sunlight manifests as a very cold substance. This link between Starlight and cold is reinforced by some of the creature from the Plane of Probability (see Nimbuses or the Arbiter in Darkness).

Of course, Moon Mages do not represent all that Lunar magic has to offer, much as the Guild would have you believe otherwise. Trader magic, as has been suggested, will spend a lot more time exploring Starlight.

What does that mean for our theoretical exoplanets? Who knows.

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

<if some of this comes IG soon.

I wouldn't hold my breath. As talented as our devs/GMs are, there's only so much they can do in a given time frame. :)

Back to the original topic, Paladin themes.

On the way home, it occurred to me that there could be some interesting themes that could come up. Considering that both Paladins and Clerics are in theory under the aegis of the Great Temple, it seems like it is a bad idea to totally separate them.

Cleric: The scholars and warriors of the divine. They concern themselves with how the gods interact with each other and the universe, those who stand between the gods and man, as well as argue esoteric things like what color Phelim's eyes are.

Paladin: Warriors of the Temple and enforcers of "holy law." Basically, they're not nearly as concerned with the gods as much as how people behave regarding the gods. They're the ones who police the mortal races and their infractions with the gods.

*Difference in Spheres of Interest*
Cleric: When ghosts break loose or the stars start falling from the sky, call a cleric.
Paladin: When the Dragon Priests start a new crusade or that heretic cult starts sacrificing townsfolk, call a paladin.

Basically two sides of the same coin.

(I feel like I'm being incoherent, but hopeful I got my point across)

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Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html

>>In my mind a true dark paladin who worships Botolf wouldn't be tending people's wounds and making sure to tithe to the poor.

Think of it as a really seedy politician happily kissing babies before allowing an orphanage to get the bulldozed.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

<<In my mind a true dark paladin who worships Botolf wouldn't be tending people's wounds and making sure to tithe to the poor.>>

I completely agree and this was a large reason I suggested different Paladin alignments (for the lack of a better word).

--Just a Squire

I'd also love to see something like not tithing regularly cause a reduction to soul state.

>I'd also love to see something like not tithing regularly cause a reduction to soul state.

Automated decay is a crap system and I swear to the gods I will find you and stab you in the kidneys if they implement this.

Unless more than 3 ways (hyperbole) are implimented to gain soul, and the system as a whole is fleshed out, balanced, and redesigned...no. Just no to anything that is 'if you don't kick an orphan, bake a pie, tend 3 wounds, and do XYZ every 10 seconds we're going to kill your confound thanks'.

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I'm a badger, I be badgerin'

And besides all that, with the neutral drift we currently have, some amount of jumping through hoops is already required. "If you don't tithe, it will decay" is just a more specific form of "If you don't maintain it, it will decay." For it to be an interesting mechanic, it has to be based on doing stuff. One of the primary questions is therefore - which stuff and why?

<This could be an interesting discussion but I don't think we should tangent to it here in this thread.

I brought it up here because temple policies seem like they should be relevant to the overall Paladin theme. Currently, to the best of my knowledge, the temple doesn't really serve as anything other than a backdrop and a place to turn in favor orbs or recharge your holy weapon. I'd like to see it come alive more, and be intrinsic to the overall theme of the Paladins (and possibly Clerics as well.)

Pipe dreams about player-held positions as Cardinals and Bishops aside, I think it's something that's very important to consider when determining the overall direction of the Paladins' guild.

I always saw the separation of cleric and paladin as like paladin being Darth Vader and Cleric being Palpatine

>>But... Vader kills Palpatine.

Yeah...but at a very great price (he died also)

<<I always saw the separation of cleric and paladin as like paladin being Darth Vader and Cleric being Palpatine>>

That's a terrible analogy, that suggests that Clerics are in charge of Paladins.

--Just a Squire

<<I feel like you are not playing the same game as we are if you don't get the analogy in context to guild strength/development. whooooosh>>

Yup, that totally clarified it, thanks.

--Just a Squire