Previous
I started with a post from long ago by Armifer that explained a Paladin's soul and what a 'Dark Paladin' is (I loved this post by the way). Here it is in its entirety:
<The Sacred and the Profane
<The ethic of the Dark Paladin can be described with deceptive simplicity, "Do what you must -- and then pay for it."
<At the heart of being a Paladin is the sacred soul. Unlike the Clerics, who call down divine attention through their rites, the Paladin grounds divinity into the mortal world directly through their actions. While Paladins can (and almost always do) think of themselves as servants or vessels of particular Immortals, this distinction has no functional value: the Paladin as a magician and wielder of holy power is wholly defined by the spark of divinity that has set his soul on fire.
<What this means to the Paladin varies wildly -- once their souls are lit, the Immortals only rarely step in to direct the efforts of the flame bearers. While there is a very well known and institutionalized approach to being a Paladin, any path that does not sully the divine soul can be said to be to be a right and proper path to being a Paladin.
<The Dark Paladins enter the picture as alternative paths toward divine purity. Despite popular conception, a functional Dark Paladin is not someone who allows their soul to decay. A Paladin who allows the divine fire to gutter is not an anti-hero; he is even less than a human, having opened his soul up to a greater reality and found himself wanting. The taller the pillar, the longer the fall.
<Successful paths of the Paladin inevitably revolve around ethical responsibility. While Dark Paladins are known for presenting a harsh edge to the world -- for doing what they perceive as necessary even if honor dictates otherwise -- they do it within a framework of sacrifice and ethical responsibility. Dark Paladins are not bullies and they are not irreverent madmen, they are crusaders who know exactly where to draw the line between divine wrath and human failing. When done with honest intention and impeccable wisdom, the universe has been known to judge even horrendous actions as worthy -- and when he missteps, the Paladin still knows that the sacrifice of their soul is worth the cause.
<The dividing line between a coward and a Dark Paladin often comes down to payment: if successful Paladins are defined by responsibility, then a successful Dark Paladin is defined by a willingness to accept the punishment for his actions. A murderer and a Paladin may both strike a man dead for his sins, regardless of what the law says, but what defines the Paladin's ethic is he will then stand and accept responsibility for his action. Sometimes it is as simple and painless as a murder fine, but often enough the contrived web of ethics and perceived necessity drive the Dark Paladin to bitter ends, exile, and acts of unmourned sacrifice that would cause their more romantic, honor-focused brothers to weep.
<After all, the Paladin on the razor-edged path knows better than anyone that his life has only finite value.
<-Armifer
It seems to be a pretty good explanation of what our soul is, a divine spark that demands certain ethical behavior. I will digress a moment to discuss this notion of ethics since it is often confused with behaving in accordance to social conventions, religion and the law and such (our Code is framed in these notions), but ethics can be universally defined simply as helping rather than harming others.
A Paladin's soul and soul state reinforce this concept somewhat and start to define us as a guild. The fact that our soul is tarnished by harming others makes us unique in Elanthia. Some of our soul hits make sense, others may need some explanation.
First strike and killing others of the races are the most straightforward. These acts harm people. Stealing, grave-robbing, making or using poison and throwing dirt intentionally harm others as well.
Normal soul drift could be explained as a symptom of our daily internal struggles against less ethical motivations like greed, egotism, deceit or racism or such.
Fleeing, hiding during combat, and spitting are not so easily explained. It seems to me that because of our divine spark, we should not be lurking unseen or show cowardice. We should act in the open for all to see as an example to others. Spitting? The only thing I can think is that our divine ethics would prohibit such an open show of disrespect.
So. These seem to be the things thus far that define unethical behavior as it regards our soul. I cannot really see any expansion on this in game mechanics. Looking at soul hits in this light (for me anyway) makes sense and I can now really fully embrace them.
So next we go to the ethical side of doing good or helping others. Acts such as these bolster our soul. Killing undead, protecting, tending and accusing others of crimes (which helps other people by at least temporarily disables another from doing harm to them) are the only soul boosts that directly help others. Prayers, tithing, doing 'holy' rituals and such might be seen as self contemplation and bolstering of the soul by that means. Interestingly, the reading from the book of Chadatru would suggest a connection with that Immortal to our souls, but I have no idea how that is explained.
Point of all this.
When the GM's do find the time for development of our abilities, it should somehow, in my opinion, be centered around our soul, the spark of our divine power and abilities to use as we see fit. To be able to ground divinity into the mortal world directly through our actions (to borrow a phrase). Perhaps the source of our spark even transcends the Immortals. Our abilities should help groups that work with us, as well as increase our combat abilities (offensive and defensive, but we really lack offensive oomph).
I am not all that creative when it comes to imagining specific abilities for us, so many other Paladins in the past and I am sure in the future can do a better job at it. This is just my thoughts on the direction and framework of those abilities and maybe help out the thoughts on our endurance skill perks as it becomes more fleshed out.
~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
SEBESTYEN64
STELLARMAGUS
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/21/2014 06:30 PM CDT
<ethics can be universally defined simply as helping rather than harming others.
I have to disagree on the validity of this definition for a number of reasons. Firstly, ethics is the study of morals ( http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=ethic&allowed_in_frame=0 ). Secondly, "good" morals and "bad" morals are subjective, as morality ( http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=moral&allowed_in_frame=0 ) is merely a description of behavior that is whose appropriateness is measured by any given society. Thirdly, "helping rather than harming" is also incredibly subjective. Helping/harming according to who? Who knows best (whatever that means?) It is important to realize that good and bad are completely subjective. One could almost call them shorthand for "I like it" and "I don't like it." I do agree that ethics and morality, as defined above, could make a a very interesting focus point for Paladins and their Souls.
On the secular hand, we have ethics and morality as defined by society (the People of Zoluren, the People of Therengia, Elthanthians in general, or even something as specific as The Forging Society.) This would be the more traditional/conventional approach to morality in terms of soul. A Paladin should, by these standards, behave in a way which conforms with the will of whichever people he has aligned himself (perhaps tying the Code to citizenship.)
On the esoteric hand, we have ethics and morality as defined by The Immortals. This is perhaps the more relevant of the two, given that according to (current?) lore it is the Immortals who give the Paladins' Souls the spark of the divine. As Clerics already well know, each of the Immortals and their aspects can be described by a different morality (remember: behavior relative to a given society.) Berengia forgives, Hodierna heals, Asketi punishes (extremely overgeneralized.) As the Immortals as a whole cover such a tremendously broad range of moral behavior, trying to make a single code of behavior based on every Immortal would currently only lead to one possible transgression: Necromancy. It's the only thing universally detested by all of the gods. This isn't very viable as a game mechanic for Paladins, though, which leads to the idea of establishing a system something like what Clerics already have: allow the Paladin to choose which deity's morality they will use to purify their soul. This is also problematic from a Game Design perspective, considering it covers ground already covered by the Clerics guild and that it'd be a real pain to make up a new Code for every aspect. A third possibility, then, would be to tie the Paladins as a whole to one particular deity and base their ethics and morality around said deity's ethics and morality. Perhaps a wise thing here would be to code for three possibilities: the light aspect, the neutral aspect, and the dark aspect. Chadatru would be the obvious choice. This is really only problematic for people who don't want to be put into the Chadatru moral pidgeonhole.
On the personal hand, we have the struggle of the Paladin to reconcile his or her own morality with the hard, absolute morality that is observable in his or her own Soul. That really is what the Soul seems to represent: an absolute morality. An objective "holy" vs and objective "evil." A real, tangible "good" and a real, tangible "bad." This is where there is some possibility for struggling Paladins to overlap a bit with the Philosophy of the Knife, assuming this absolute morality does stem from the gods. That question should probably tempt every Paladin: who created this absolute morality, and what gives them the right to decide for everyone what is good and what is bad? The pure Paladin will remain faithful, the "dark" Paladin will stray from the path and justify it (most likely incorrectly, assuming it truly is an absolute good) and a fallen, failed paladin would reject it entirely.
I feel like I've rambled enough for now. The important thing I'm trying to say, I suppose, is that in real life (as far as anyone knows) there is no absolute good. In Dragonrealms there may be or there may not be, it all depends on the direction we'd like to develop the Paladins.
I have to disagree on the validity of this definition for a number of reasons. Firstly, ethics is the study of morals ( http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=ethic&allowed_in_frame=0 ). Secondly, "good" morals and "bad" morals are subjective, as morality ( http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=moral&allowed_in_frame=0 ) is merely a description of behavior that is whose appropriateness is measured by any given society. Thirdly, "helping rather than harming" is also incredibly subjective. Helping/harming according to who? Who knows best (whatever that means?) It is important to realize that good and bad are completely subjective. One could almost call them shorthand for "I like it" and "I don't like it." I do agree that ethics and morality, as defined above, could make a a very interesting focus point for Paladins and their Souls.
On the secular hand, we have ethics and morality as defined by society (the People of Zoluren, the People of Therengia, Elthanthians in general, or even something as specific as The Forging Society.) This would be the more traditional/conventional approach to morality in terms of soul. A Paladin should, by these standards, behave in a way which conforms with the will of whichever people he has aligned himself (perhaps tying the Code to citizenship.)
On the esoteric hand, we have ethics and morality as defined by The Immortals. This is perhaps the more relevant of the two, given that according to (current?) lore it is the Immortals who give the Paladins' Souls the spark of the divine. As Clerics already well know, each of the Immortals and their aspects can be described by a different morality (remember: behavior relative to a given society.) Berengia forgives, Hodierna heals, Asketi punishes (extremely overgeneralized.) As the Immortals as a whole cover such a tremendously broad range of moral behavior, trying to make a single code of behavior based on every Immortal would currently only lead to one possible transgression: Necromancy. It's the only thing universally detested by all of the gods. This isn't very viable as a game mechanic for Paladins, though, which leads to the idea of establishing a system something like what Clerics already have: allow the Paladin to choose which deity's morality they will use to purify their soul. This is also problematic from a Game Design perspective, considering it covers ground already covered by the Clerics guild and that it'd be a real pain to make up a new Code for every aspect. A third possibility, then, would be to tie the Paladins as a whole to one particular deity and base their ethics and morality around said deity's ethics and morality. Perhaps a wise thing here would be to code for three possibilities: the light aspect, the neutral aspect, and the dark aspect. Chadatru would be the obvious choice. This is really only problematic for people who don't want to be put into the Chadatru moral pidgeonhole.
On the personal hand, we have the struggle of the Paladin to reconcile his or her own morality with the hard, absolute morality that is observable in his or her own Soul. That really is what the Soul seems to represent: an absolute morality. An objective "holy" vs and objective "evil." A real, tangible "good" and a real, tangible "bad." This is where there is some possibility for struggling Paladins to overlap a bit with the Philosophy of the Knife, assuming this absolute morality does stem from the gods. That question should probably tempt every Paladin: who created this absolute morality, and what gives them the right to decide for everyone what is good and what is bad? The pure Paladin will remain faithful, the "dark" Paladin will stray from the path and justify it (most likely incorrectly, assuming it truly is an absolute good) and a fallen, failed paladin would reject it entirely.
I feel like I've rambled enough for now. The important thing I'm trying to say, I suppose, is that in real life (as far as anyone knows) there is no absolute good. In Dragonrealms there may be or there may not be, it all depends on the direction we'd like to develop the Paladins.
STELLARMAGUS
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/21/2014 06:39 PM CDT
<That question should probably tempt every Paladin: who created this absolute morality, and what gives them the right to decide for everyone what is good and what is bad?
This applies whether the morality comes from the gods, a single god, or society. Just wanted to point that out for clarification. It doesn't always have to boil down to the Immortals
This applies whether the morality comes from the gods, a single god, or society. Just wanted to point that out for clarification. It doesn't always have to boil down to the Immortals
STELLARMAGUS
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/21/2014 07:08 PM CDT
Ah, one more possible development direction.
Not that this is anything any in-game character would ever know, but what if this "absolute good" was a power even greater than that of The Immortals? Sort of a law of the universe that governs even them. What if not all Immortals "had pure souls" as it were?
Not that this is anything any in-game character would ever know, but what if this "absolute good" was a power even greater than that of The Immortals? Sort of a law of the universe that governs even them. What if not all Immortals "had pure souls" as it were?
RAB1DW0MBAT
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/21/2014 11:37 PM CDT
what that is very fascinating stuff. i didnt know there were any dark paladins i think this could open up a fantastic realm of roleplay if it was done in a feasible manner for although paladins are only good and righteous, sometimes they can be rude, thats pretty dark.
Or, you could give Paladins who worship Botolf the ability to learn stealing, and gain soul by casting Shatter at people. It seems mildly appropriate. Because I miss stealing. :( <--- sadface btw because i am sad that paladins want to be dark and evil and mean. we are good people.
An overpowering sense of wrongness overcomes you, leaving you struggling against an almost uncontrollable urge to lash out at anyone and anything around you. With tremendous force of will, you manage to regain control of your emotions. - Irony
Or, you could give Paladins who worship Botolf the ability to learn stealing, and gain soul by casting Shatter at people. It seems mildly appropriate. Because I miss stealing. :( <--- sadface btw because i am sad that paladins want to be dark and evil and mean. we are good people.
An overpowering sense of wrongness overcomes you, leaving you struggling against an almost uncontrollable urge to lash out at anyone and anything around you. With tremendous force of will, you manage to regain control of your emotions. - Irony
GNIKOLEYCHUK
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/22/2014 12:35 AM CDT
>>>> As the Immortals as a whole cover such a tremendously broad range of moral behavior, trying to make a single code of behavior based on every Immortal would currently only lead to one possible transgression: Necromancy
If one specific god who ignites the divinity in the Paladins' soul that immortals' morality might define the paladins' code. It is probably not a coincidence that Chadatru seems to be linked to paladins' souls and the paladins' code resembles something that Chadatru might create.
If one specific god who ignites the divinity in the Paladins' soul that immortals' morality might define the paladins' code. It is probably not a coincidence that Chadatru seems to be linked to paladins' souls and the paladins' code resembles something that Chadatru might create.
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/22/2014 07:38 AM CDT
>If one specific god who ignites the divinity in the Paladins' soul that immortals' morality might define the paladins' code. It is probably not a coincidence that Chadatru seems to be linked to paladins' souls and the paladins' code resembles something that Chadatru might create.
Yes, as long as by 'no coincidence' you mean crappy, outdated, hack writing and one dimensional story telling.
Every other guild has had their core concept updated, except paladins. Pointing to the current/historic lore and using that to justify continuation is self limiting. However Armifer and company decide to proceed forward with the guild development, I hope it's more than Paladins are Chadatru's BFF's and like totall adhere to every stereotype and have to be nice guys and can't hurt people and have to save orphans and have to go tilting at windmills and stuff. Because it's one sided, transparent, and frankly less interesting than clerics only being rezz monkeys and empaths only being healbots.
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
Yes, as long as by 'no coincidence' you mean crappy, outdated, hack writing and one dimensional story telling.
Every other guild has had their core concept updated, except paladins. Pointing to the current/historic lore and using that to justify continuation is self limiting. However Armifer and company decide to proceed forward with the guild development, I hope it's more than Paladins are Chadatru's BFF's and like totall adhere to every stereotype and have to be nice guys and can't hurt people and have to save orphans and have to go tilting at windmills and stuff. Because it's one sided, transparent, and frankly less interesting than clerics only being rezz monkeys and empaths only being healbots.
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
SEBESTYEN64
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/22/2014 08:19 AM CDT
Yes. Ethics is a sticky subject. Your points broaden the discussion of ethics which, for the purposes of a fantasy game, I attempted to define in the most simple and basic terms. It is a starting point for an entire ethical conversation which makes for excellent RP later on. It is this basic and objective concept I was going for to help define the Paladin soul as an absolute. In this way, Paladins need not be tied to any particular deity. It works, I think. Especially in regard to the Sacred and Profane post and without the need to get mired in an ethical debate.
I will note that the published Code for Paladins was presented by the Paladin Council and as such was created by mortals. It has never precluded other potential codes of conduct for Paladins. I do not think it should have anything to do with a Paladin's soul.
<real life (as far as anyone knows) there is no absolute good.
No, but I think that there are some human actions that are definitely and objectively NOT good.
<Helping/harming according to who?
If I shoot you in the face, I harmed you. It is an objective fact. An absolute.
On the other hand, if I save your life, it is an objective fact that I helped you.
These are absolutes that are completely stripped of the context of the events. It is this context of real life - or RP - that you are talking about when you ask who decides.
My Paladin may decide that you needed to be shot in the face and get the first strike hit to his soul. On the other hand my Paladin may decide that a necromancer does not need to die and protects him and gets a boost to the soul.
The context of these events is where the esoteric, secular, and ethical debate is had.
<The Paladin as a magician and wielder of holy power is wholly defined by the spark of divinity that has set his soul on fire.
<What this means to the Paladin varies wildly -- once their souls are lit, the Immortals only rarely step in to direct the efforts of the flame bearers. While there is a very well known and institutionalized approach to being a Paladin, any path that does not sully the divine soul can be said to be to be a right and proper path to being a Paladin.
Just some thoughts. More to come.
~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
I will note that the published Code for Paladins was presented by the Paladin Council and as such was created by mortals. It has never precluded other potential codes of conduct for Paladins. I do not think it should have anything to do with a Paladin's soul.
<real life (as far as anyone knows) there is no absolute good.
No, but I think that there are some human actions that are definitely and objectively NOT good.
<Helping/harming according to who?
If I shoot you in the face, I harmed you. It is an objective fact. An absolute.
On the other hand, if I save your life, it is an objective fact that I helped you.
These are absolutes that are completely stripped of the context of the events. It is this context of real life - or RP - that you are talking about when you ask who decides.
My Paladin may decide that you needed to be shot in the face and get the first strike hit to his soul. On the other hand my Paladin may decide that a necromancer does not need to die and protects him and gets a boost to the soul.
The context of these events is where the esoteric, secular, and ethical debate is had.
<The Paladin as a magician and wielder of holy power is wholly defined by the spark of divinity that has set his soul on fire.
<What this means to the Paladin varies wildly -- once their souls are lit, the Immortals only rarely step in to direct the efforts of the flame bearers. While there is a very well known and institutionalized approach to being a Paladin, any path that does not sully the divine soul can be said to be to be a right and proper path to being a Paladin.
Just some thoughts. More to come.
~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
SEBESTYEN64
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/22/2014 08:31 AM CDT
<<I hope it's more than Paladins are Chadatru's BFF's
The way I read Armifer's piece, I believe this would be the direction.
<<Perhaps the source of our spark even transcends the Immortals.
<<Not that this is anything any in-game character would ever know, but what if this "absolute good" was a power even greater than that of The Immortals? Sort of a law of the universe that governs even them. What if not all Immortals "had pure souls" as it were?
Exactly. Paladins can be any religion they wish.. or none at all. So long as they tend to their soul, any path is possible.
~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
The way I read Armifer's piece, I believe this would be the direction.
<<Perhaps the source of our spark even transcends the Immortals.
<<Not that this is anything any in-game character would ever know, but what if this "absolute good" was a power even greater than that of The Immortals? Sort of a law of the universe that governs even them. What if not all Immortals "had pure souls" as it were?
Exactly. Paladins can be any religion they wish.. or none at all. So long as they tend to their soul, any path is possible.
~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
CARAAMON
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/22/2014 10:07 AM CDT
Not a paladin, but I've thought about it a fair amount, and I can see two ways to think of a soul hit:
1) x darkens my soul, so I shouldn't do it.
2) x darkens my soul, so I should do it only when necessary.
Basically the second one says that the soul hit is there, not to prevent us from performing those actions, but to make us seriously consider the situations where we take those actions.
It's the difference between moral (is this action good or bad) and pragmatic (is this action worth the cost to my soul). To be honest, I don't actually see them as being mutually exclusive.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
1) x darkens my soul, so I shouldn't do it.
2) x darkens my soul, so I should do it only when necessary.
Basically the second one says that the soul hit is there, not to prevent us from performing those actions, but to make us seriously consider the situations where we take those actions.
It's the difference between moral (is this action good or bad) and pragmatic (is this action worth the cost to my soul). To be honest, I don't actually see them as being mutually exclusive.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
ELFVERHAN
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/22/2014 03:01 PM CDT
>>1) x darkens my soul, so I shouldn't do it.
2) x darkens my soul, so I should do it only when necessary.<<
Based on the Deity of the Paladin and the soul state would be a way to control the level of damage IMHO.
M@c ~]X!j % %AN_rrWB5z4%p rBa =jZb*h[mp,0;pv` knIM%aJ|
******************************************
WARNING: You are carrying an extremely large number of items on your person.
Having a very high number of items can cause character corruption or
2) x darkens my soul, so I should do it only when necessary.<<
Based on the Deity of the Paladin and the soul state would be a way to control the level of damage IMHO.
M@c ~]X!j % %AN_rrWB5z4%p rBa =jZb*h[mp,0;pv` knIM%aJ|
******************************************
WARNING: You are carrying an extremely large number of items on your person.
Having a very high number of items can cause character corruption or
STELLARMAGUS
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/22/2014 07:02 PM CDT
<No, but I think that there are some human actions that are definitely and objectively NOT good.
How does one measure not goodness? How could it be defined in a way that is falsifiable?
<If I shoot you in the face, I harmed you. It is an objective fact. An absolute.
<On the other hand, if I save your life, it is an objective fact that I helped you.
I don't think that objective facts are what you think they are. I also don't think "help" and "harm" mean what you think they mean. Help and harm are words that need qualifiers, or else they are useless. Help to do what? Harm in what way? Just like "good" and "bad" need to have "according to" attached to them, or else it can simply be assumed that "good" is meant according to the speaker.
To use examples ... if I want to die, by shooting me in the face you have helped me accomplish my goal. By saving your life, you have harmed my attempt to die. Those are extreme examples, sure, but they're still valid.
NOW ... all of that said, once again, it is entirely possible that things could be developed as though, in Elanthia, for Paladins, there is an absolute good and bad, an absolute right and wrong. Maybe saving people's lives is always a good thing no matter what, according to this power that empowers Paladins. This would actually raise a lot of really interesting RP opportunities as people struggle with what happens when "doing the right thing" is not right by their own personal standards. The Code says that Necromancers must be killed, but I don't think it's right to kill. Or perhaps the other way around. Evil Bad Necro Dude is making his zombies try to bite my face off, but I am forbidden from killing him. Do I do it anyway and suffer the consequences, fall a few steps further from purity?
Honestly, I'm still not sure which development direction I'd prefer most. I'm leaning towards more real-life sources of inspiration, though, and this to me suggests that oaths and fealty should be very important to Paladins. So perhaps the Chadatru-primary slant, but with Citizenship and mortal politics playing a big role in the guild. It'd probably go alongside a Justice System revamp, and I'd have different laws in different provinces. But I'm still not entirely sold on anything yet.
How does one measure not goodness? How could it be defined in a way that is falsifiable?
<If I shoot you in the face, I harmed you. It is an objective fact. An absolute.
<On the other hand, if I save your life, it is an objective fact that I helped you.
I don't think that objective facts are what you think they are. I also don't think "help" and "harm" mean what you think they mean. Help and harm are words that need qualifiers, or else they are useless. Help to do what? Harm in what way? Just like "good" and "bad" need to have "according to" attached to them, or else it can simply be assumed that "good" is meant according to the speaker.
To use examples ... if I want to die, by shooting me in the face you have helped me accomplish my goal. By saving your life, you have harmed my attempt to die. Those are extreme examples, sure, but they're still valid.
NOW ... all of that said, once again, it is entirely possible that things could be developed as though, in Elanthia, for Paladins, there is an absolute good and bad, an absolute right and wrong. Maybe saving people's lives is always a good thing no matter what, according to this power that empowers Paladins. This would actually raise a lot of really interesting RP opportunities as people struggle with what happens when "doing the right thing" is not right by their own personal standards. The Code says that Necromancers must be killed, but I don't think it's right to kill. Or perhaps the other way around. Evil Bad Necro Dude is making his zombies try to bite my face off, but I am forbidden from killing him. Do I do it anyway and suffer the consequences, fall a few steps further from purity?
Honestly, I'm still not sure which development direction I'd prefer most. I'm leaning towards more real-life sources of inspiration, though, and this to me suggests that oaths and fealty should be very important to Paladins. So perhaps the Chadatru-primary slant, but with Citizenship and mortal politics playing a big role in the guild. It'd probably go alongside a Justice System revamp, and I'd have different laws in different provinces. But I'm still not entirely sold on anything yet.
NRAY
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/22/2014 07:27 PM CDT
This is a very, very good thread so far! :)
First of all, its interesting to see folks attempt to apply logic to a matter of faith and emotion. While definitely possible and at times definitely useful, when times are at their toughest in matters of ethics and faith to me in RL solutions only seem to come when I start thinking with my heart instead of my brain. This is a good topic but steel yourselves, folks, cause we just might be trying to push and squeeze a round peg through a square hole here.
Use the current Code, created by mortals, as a BASELINE for all circle 1 squires who don't know any better (lol). Then, through a series of self-analyzing QUESTS, allow a paladin to ALTER that Code as it applies to THEM:
+1 For selecting Light/Neutral/Dark and leaving it at that without picking a specific deity. This will alter things in the code such as Stealing and Striking First.
+1 For allowing a paladin's Citizenship to add to his/her Code. I imagine Theren paladins would have a few more 'lawful slanted' rules in there compared to a paladin of Qi having a few more rebellion-slanted principles.
+1 For Quests that allow Paladins inclined to do so affect the Justice system in various ways based on the previous things I have mentioned. Should it be easier for a Light paladin to successfully ACCUSE compared to most? Probably! Do you want a Dark Paladin as your defense lawyer? Possibly!
+1 FOR THE UR-GOD LORE. I cannot support this enough!
First of all, its interesting to see folks attempt to apply logic to a matter of faith and emotion. While definitely possible and at times definitely useful, when times are at their toughest in matters of ethics and faith to me in RL solutions only seem to come when I start thinking with my heart instead of my brain. This is a good topic but steel yourselves, folks, cause we just might be trying to push and squeeze a round peg through a square hole here.
Use the current Code, created by mortals, as a BASELINE for all circle 1 squires who don't know any better (lol). Then, through a series of self-analyzing QUESTS, allow a paladin to ALTER that Code as it applies to THEM:
+1 For selecting Light/Neutral/Dark and leaving it at that without picking a specific deity. This will alter things in the code such as Stealing and Striking First.
+1 For allowing a paladin's Citizenship to add to his/her Code. I imagine Theren paladins would have a few more 'lawful slanted' rules in there compared to a paladin of Qi having a few more rebellion-slanted principles.
+1 For Quests that allow Paladins inclined to do so affect the Justice system in various ways based on the previous things I have mentioned. Should it be easier for a Light paladin to successfully ACCUSE compared to most? Probably! Do you want a Dark Paladin as your defense lawyer? Possibly!
+1 FOR THE UR-GOD LORE. I cannot support this enough!
STELLARMAGUS
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/22/2014 07:41 PM CDT
<+1 FOR THE UR-GOD LORE.
That is something I also find very interesting. If one accepts the modern definition of "god" as "a supreme being," and "supreme" as "greatest, utmost, or extreme," then one can easily see what precisely is meant by "god of justice." The most extreme personification of justice. A being that is nothing else but pure justice.
If we tie in Paladin Souls to the concept of purity ... well, achieving that state of purity would, by definition, be achieving godhood. To become pure, a being that is the penultimate expression of an idea.
That is something I also find very interesting. If one accepts the modern definition of "god" as "a supreme being," and "supreme" as "greatest, utmost, or extreme," then one can easily see what precisely is meant by "god of justice." The most extreme personification of justice. A being that is nothing else but pure justice.
If we tie in Paladin Souls to the concept of purity ... well, achieving that state of purity would, by definition, be achieving godhood. To become pure, a being that is the penultimate expression of an idea.
NRAY
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/22/2014 09:13 PM CDT
That would tie into the whole 'black flecks in the mana' thing. We're getting there but far from Immortal!
So... Sylvaeus could become some Minor God Of Righteous Rebellion...... okay, I can dig it. ;)
So... Sylvaeus could become some Minor God Of Righteous Rebellion...... okay, I can dig it. ;)
2DUMBARSE
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/22/2014 09:25 PM CDT
Just wanted to add the following info from Armifer's post in another thread because it's relevant to the discussion. I'm very curious about the soul sanctification process.
>The soul in DR is an organ of the body, sort of like a spleen but made out of ephemeral material called spiritual energy. The soul is the seat of consciousness, and when the soul and body part ways the mind goes with the soul. Souls without the protection of a corporeal body "ablate" over time and diminish, doing damage to the personality trapped within and eventually becoming so rarefied it stops existing on this plane entirely. Souls can be created or destroyed by mortal magic, but it's an extraordinarily hard and broadly useless task.
>The soul of the Paladin is a specially sanctified organ, sort of like having "holy blood" but not icky. Most Paladins do not know where the sanctified soul process comes from, but sanctifying the soul is part of the induction process of being a Paladin. How this is done is a holy mystery the Guildleaders keep to themselves, but it's either within mortal means or there's something Upstairs that is very decidedly active in the process of inducting a Paladin.
>The ultimate reason to care for the sanctified soul, and what its purpose is, has not been revealed yet, and I would like to eventually resurrect Dartenian's plot rather than just spoil it. The biggest hint I'll give is the one I've given freely: once the soul is sanctified, the Paladin cannot perceive holy energies without seeing a taint in them.
>-Armifer
>"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
>The soul in DR is an organ of the body, sort of like a spleen but made out of ephemeral material called spiritual energy. The soul is the seat of consciousness, and when the soul and body part ways the mind goes with the soul. Souls without the protection of a corporeal body "ablate" over time and diminish, doing damage to the personality trapped within and eventually becoming so rarefied it stops existing on this plane entirely. Souls can be created or destroyed by mortal magic, but it's an extraordinarily hard and broadly useless task.
>The soul of the Paladin is a specially sanctified organ, sort of like having "holy blood" but not icky. Most Paladins do not know where the sanctified soul process comes from, but sanctifying the soul is part of the induction process of being a Paladin. How this is done is a holy mystery the Guildleaders keep to themselves, but it's either within mortal means or there's something Upstairs that is very decidedly active in the process of inducting a Paladin.
>The ultimate reason to care for the sanctified soul, and what its purpose is, has not been revealed yet, and I would like to eventually resurrect Dartenian's plot rather than just spoil it. The biggest hint I'll give is the one I've given freely: once the soul is sanctified, the Paladin cannot perceive holy energies without seeing a taint in them.
>-Armifer
>"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
RAB1DW0MBAT
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/22/2014 09:50 PM CDT
>The soul of the Paladin is a specially sanctified organ, sort of like having "holy blood" but not icky. Most Paladins do not know where the sanctified soul process comes from, but sanctifying the soul is part of the induction process of being a Paladin. How this is done is a holy mystery the Guildleaders keep to themselves, but it's either within mortal means or there's something Upstairs that is very decidedly active in the process of inducting a Paladin.
I know more about the experience than most because I spent like 6 years as a terrible thief and then heard the calling from Chadatru to become a noble hero of the common folk so I joined the Paladin Guild and almost instantly disregarded everything I had learned or heard or felt and followed Botolf because thats a lot more fun and shouldn't have soul-hits for doing bad things if you're an Evil Paladin. ITS A REAL THING I SWEAR. I wasn't the first nor will I be the last, they're out there. Just not as verbose or honorable as I. For however dark I may become, I shall always honor honor. For that is what one does with honor, honor it in order to show your honor in an honorable way.
An overpowering sense of wrongness overcomes you, leaving you struggling against an almost uncontrollable urge to lash out at anyone and anything around you. With tremendous force of will, you manage to regain control of your emotions. - Irony
I know more about the experience than most because I spent like 6 years as a terrible thief and then heard the calling from Chadatru to become a noble hero of the common folk so I joined the Paladin Guild and almost instantly disregarded everything I had learned or heard or felt and followed Botolf because thats a lot more fun and shouldn't have soul-hits for doing bad things if you're an Evil Paladin. ITS A REAL THING I SWEAR. I wasn't the first nor will I be the last, they're out there. Just not as verbose or honorable as I. For however dark I may become, I shall always honor honor. For that is what one does with honor, honor it in order to show your honor in an honorable way.
An overpowering sense of wrongness overcomes you, leaving you struggling against an almost uncontrollable urge to lash out at anyone and anything around you. With tremendous force of will, you manage to regain control of your emotions. - Irony
SEBESTYEN64
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/23/2014 08:10 AM CDT
<<Just wanted to add the following info from Armifer's post...
Thanks for adding that. Some good stuff in there and hopefully Dart's plot will come around. It was this post and a re-reading of sacred and profane that got me started thinking this way.
<I don't think that objective facts are what you think they are. I also don't think "help" and "harm" mean what you think they mean. Help and harm are words that need qualifiers, or else they are useless. Help to do what? Harm in what way? Just like "good" and "bad" need to have "according to" attached to them, or else it can simply be assumed that "good" is meant according to the speaker.
You are missing the point, or intentionally obfuscating it. Words mean what they mean and do not need qualifiers unless you are attempting to communicate a context.
I am not going to argue against your point with the added CONTEXT because it is quite valid and I agree. I will, however, argue that I do know what words mean. At least in English. I struggle with German and hardly know a lick of Spanish.
~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
Thanks for adding that. Some good stuff in there and hopefully Dart's plot will come around. It was this post and a re-reading of sacred and profane that got me started thinking this way.
<I don't think that objective facts are what you think they are. I also don't think "help" and "harm" mean what you think they mean. Help and harm are words that need qualifiers, or else they are useless. Help to do what? Harm in what way? Just like "good" and "bad" need to have "according to" attached to them, or else it can simply be assumed that "good" is meant according to the speaker.
You are missing the point, or intentionally obfuscating it. Words mean what they mean and do not need qualifiers unless you are attempting to communicate a context.
I am not going to argue against your point with the added CONTEXT because it is quite valid and I agree. I will, however, argue that I do know what words mean. At least in English. I struggle with German and hardly know a lick of Spanish.
~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
2DUMBARSE
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/23/2014 11:19 AM CDT
>I know more about the experience than most because I spent like 6 years as a terrible thief and then heard the calling from Chadatru to become a noble hero of the common folk so I joined the Paladin Guild..
I remember Korsik more from thief days. So deep in my ignorance was I that when I came back to DR after a long break, I remember thinking for a good while that Paladin was your pretend guild and you were just trolling the Paladin forums. By long while, I mean I'm still only half-sure. ;)
>Thanks for adding that. Some good stuff in there and hopefully Dart's plot will come around. It was this post and a re-reading of sacred and profane that got me started thinking this way.
I loved reading the dark paladin fiction. Some peoples' past ideas, speaking generally, of what dark paladin was felt a little too cartoon-character to me. That said, I can't say I've never had the desire to put a black cape on my Rakash paladin and growl, "I'm batman" for my own amusement.
I'm really enjoying all the new or newish paladin fiction. DR fiction, as a whole, has been becoming more about making the magical more real... if that makes any sense. I really enjoy that. It's one of the things I liked about the Sword of Truth series before it became too preachy.
I remember Korsik more from thief days. So deep in my ignorance was I that when I came back to DR after a long break, I remember thinking for a good while that Paladin was your pretend guild and you were just trolling the Paladin forums. By long while, I mean I'm still only half-sure. ;)
>Thanks for adding that. Some good stuff in there and hopefully Dart's plot will come around. It was this post and a re-reading of sacred and profane that got me started thinking this way.
I loved reading the dark paladin fiction. Some peoples' past ideas, speaking generally, of what dark paladin was felt a little too cartoon-character to me. That said, I can't say I've never had the desire to put a black cape on my Rakash paladin and growl, "I'm batman" for my own amusement.
I'm really enjoying all the new or newish paladin fiction. DR fiction, as a whole, has been becoming more about making the magical more real... if that makes any sense. I really enjoy that. It's one of the things I liked about the Sword of Truth series before it became too preachy.
NRAY
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/23/2014 12:35 PM CDT
Since you like the DR fiction, I posted a while ago how Sylvaeus became a paladin in The Social Side of Dragonrealms. I hope it will show there can be a touch of darkness and internal conflict within a Light paladin, as well. Sometimes Sylvaeus will state that he is the last of his line so he shared copies of a journal with others for posterity so that "certain secrets will not die with me."
It may explain a bit about my RP, too.... the hatred of necromancers (grandpa), viewing them all as baby-killers disguising their sadism with pro-mortal philosophical B.S., to his genetic addiction to sorcery without becoming "evil" about it(Uncle) which sometimes confuses folks until they are fed this story. Even his disgust for the ruling social classes is hinted at. Once another player jumps into this RP with me they tell me it all makes sense.
I hope to show that while I do like the dark paladin RP out there, there still can be a lot done with the Light ones, too, in what I hope is non-traditional ways.
P.S.
In Pastie.org format: http://pastie.org/8660946
GNIKOLEYCHUK
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/23/2014 01:42 PM CDT
>>>> +1 For selecting Light/Neutral/Dark and leaving it at that without picking a specific deity. This will alter things in the code such as Stealing and Striking First.
>>>> +1 For allowing a paladin's Citizenship to add to his/her Code. I imagine Theren paladins would have a few more 'lawful slanted' rules in there compared to a paladin of Qi having a few more rebellion-slanted principles.
Out of curiosity, what sort of changes would you make to the code that would be a balanced substitution? If you just remove some of the restrictive parts of the code there is a good reason for every paladin to go dark to reduce the requirements of their code and RP a light paladin anyway.
>>>> +1 For allowing a paladin's Citizenship to add to his/her Code. I imagine Theren paladins would have a few more 'lawful slanted' rules in there compared to a paladin of Qi having a few more rebellion-slanted principles.
Out of curiosity, what sort of changes would you make to the code that would be a balanced substitution? If you just remove some of the restrictive parts of the code there is a good reason for every paladin to go dark to reduce the requirements of their code and RP a light paladin anyway.
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/23/2014 02:40 PM CDT
>Out of curiosity, what sort of changes would you make to the code that would be a balanced substitution? If you just remove some of the restrictive parts of the code there is a good reason for every paladin to go dark to reduce the requirements of their code and RP a light paladin anyway.
I'd be fine with that. Works for Clerics. Heck, they can even worship non-39 deities or nothing. RP!
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
I'd be fine with that. Works for Clerics. Heck, they can even worship non-39 deities or nothing. RP!
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
STELLARMAGUS
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/23/2014 05:09 PM CDT
<I will, however, argue that I do know what words mean. At least in English. I struggle with German and hardly know a lick of Spanish.
Sorry if I upset or ruffled feathers. It was more about making a vague Princess Bride reference than actually saying that you don't know what they mean.
http://shewhoprecedesmen.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/inconceivable_means_02.jpg
Sorry if I upset or ruffled feathers. It was more about making a vague Princess Bride reference than actually saying that you don't know what they mean.
http://shewhoprecedesmen.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/inconceivable_means_02.jpg
RAB1DW0MBAT
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/23/2014 05:43 PM CDT
>>I remember Korsik more from thief days. So deep in my ignorance was I that when I came back to DR after a long break, I remember thinking for a good while that Paladin was your pretend guild and you were just trolling the Paladin forums. By long while, I mean I'm still only half-sure. ;)
Me too.
An overpowering sense of wrongness overcomes you, leaving you struggling against an almost uncontrollable urge to lash out at anyone and anything around you. With tremendous force of will, you manage to regain control of your emotions. - Irony
Me too.
An overpowering sense of wrongness overcomes you, leaving you struggling against an almost uncontrollable urge to lash out at anyone and anything around you. With tremendous force of will, you manage to regain control of your emotions. - Irony
SEBESTYEN64
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/23/2014 06:37 PM CDT
<Sorry if I upset or ruffled feathers. It was more about making a vague Princess Bride reference than actually saying that you don't know what they mean.
Lol. No ruffled feathers here. Its all good. Hard to read verbal inflections of humor in a typed post. And love that movie.. haven't seen it in years though.
~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
Lol. No ruffled feathers here. Its all good. Hard to read verbal inflections of humor in a typed post. And love that movie.. haven't seen it in years though.
~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
SEBESTYEN64
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/23/2014 06:55 PM CDT
>Out of curiosity, what sort of changes would you make to the code that would be a balanced substitution? If you just remove some of the restrictive parts of the code there is a good reason for every paladin to go dark to reduce the requirements of their code and RP a light paladin anyway.
I would point out that The Code is RP and was put in place by the Paladin Council, not some stone tablet handed down by Chadatru. Any Paladin could chose to adopt this Code as principles to live by, or create his/her own code. There are no soul ramifications for violating any or all restrictive parts of our Code other than the soul hits we take for sneaking, stealing, and killing. Don't like The Code? Make up your own. Worship the non-39 or be an atheist, just attend to that divine spark.
The Sacred and Profane post describes a 'dark' path for Paladins as it ties to our soul. The point being is that many of us so-called Paladins of the Light (I think Sebestyen is lumped into that) actually have a pragmatic or dark side as defined by that post. Many times have I found myself praying, tithing, tending, or listening to The Book so that I could get abilities back.
Tangent:
I tend to see the 39 aspects as encompassing.. aspects that are found in all of us. They represent the good and bad that is in everyone and can choose our own paths accordingly. If a Paladin wants to focus on negative aspects or impulses to guide their actions, then do so, by all means. In this case a 'Dark Paladin' might be defined differently. Perhaps this quote explains it better:
“If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds and
it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But
the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being.”
Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago
Anyway..
~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
I would point out that The Code is RP and was put in place by the Paladin Council, not some stone tablet handed down by Chadatru. Any Paladin could chose to adopt this Code as principles to live by, or create his/her own code. There are no soul ramifications for violating any or all restrictive parts of our Code other than the soul hits we take for sneaking, stealing, and killing. Don't like The Code? Make up your own. Worship the non-39 or be an atheist, just attend to that divine spark.
The Sacred and Profane post describes a 'dark' path for Paladins as it ties to our soul. The point being is that many of us so-called Paladins of the Light (I think Sebestyen is lumped into that) actually have a pragmatic or dark side as defined by that post. Many times have I found myself praying, tithing, tending, or listening to The Book so that I could get abilities back.
Tangent:
I tend to see the 39 aspects as encompassing.. aspects that are found in all of us. They represent the good and bad that is in everyone and can choose our own paths accordingly. If a Paladin wants to focus on negative aspects or impulses to guide their actions, then do so, by all means. In this case a 'Dark Paladin' might be defined differently. Perhaps this quote explains it better:
“If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds and
it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But
the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being.”
Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago
Anyway..
~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
GNIKOLEYCHUK
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/23/2014 08:09 PM CDT
>>>> I'd be fine with that. Works for Clerics. Heck, they can even worship non-39 deities or nothing. RP!
Well, it is sort of comparable.
The cleric gets a bonus to two skills and a penalty to three based on which deity they choose to align with. It is not like any one deity (or even alignment) is intrinsically better than others.
>>>> I would point out that The Code is RP and was put in place by the Paladin Council, not some stone tablet handed down by Chadatru. Any Paladin could chose to adopt this Code as principles to live by, or create his/her own code
My apologies for being sloppy in my terminology as I rarely play my paladin and don't keep up on these things as well as I should. Having said that, NRAY (the poster who I was quoting) seemed to be using the term "Code" to refer to actions that increase or decrease soul state and I continued using the same terminology. He seemed to be suggesting changes to the things that affect soul state, for example:
1) Of the things that increase soul state, these ones seem to be light/neutral aligned and perhaps might not benefit a dark paladin:
*Protecting someone against a creature that is a danger to the Paladin. Timer: 1 hour
*Feeding a starving caravan
*Tending a non-Paladin's wounds. Timer: 1 hour
*Tracing the Glyph of Mana in a room that has a Cleric and a corpse in it.
2) The following actions are specific to Chadatru and might be changed to include Rutilor or Botolf depending on alignment:
*Listening to a Cleric read the entire Book of Chadatru in Theren Keep.
*Praying to Chadatru at the Shard, Crossing, or Mer'Kresh Chadatru altars. (This is the biggest soul boost available.).
*Obtaining a Chadatru favor will occasionally give a soul boost.
3) The restriction on cleaning dark-aspect anloral might be removed for dark paladins
4) As far as how to change the things that reduce soul state in a balanced fashion, I am a bit at a loss
Well, it is sort of comparable.
The cleric gets a bonus to two skills and a penalty to three based on which deity they choose to align with. It is not like any one deity (or even alignment) is intrinsically better than others.
>>>> I would point out that The Code is RP and was put in place by the Paladin Council, not some stone tablet handed down by Chadatru. Any Paladin could chose to adopt this Code as principles to live by, or create his/her own code
My apologies for being sloppy in my terminology as I rarely play my paladin and don't keep up on these things as well as I should. Having said that, NRAY (the poster who I was quoting) seemed to be using the term "Code" to refer to actions that increase or decrease soul state and I continued using the same terminology. He seemed to be suggesting changes to the things that affect soul state, for example:
1) Of the things that increase soul state, these ones seem to be light/neutral aligned and perhaps might not benefit a dark paladin:
*Protecting someone against a creature that is a danger to the Paladin. Timer: 1 hour
*Feeding a starving caravan
*Tending a non-Paladin's wounds. Timer: 1 hour
*Tracing the Glyph of Mana in a room that has a Cleric and a corpse in it.
2) The following actions are specific to Chadatru and might be changed to include Rutilor or Botolf depending on alignment:
*Listening to a Cleric read the entire Book of Chadatru in Theren Keep.
*Praying to Chadatru at the Shard, Crossing, or Mer'Kresh Chadatru altars. (This is the biggest soul boost available.).
*Obtaining a Chadatru favor will occasionally give a soul boost.
3) The restriction on cleaning dark-aspect anloral might be removed for dark paladins
4) As far as how to change the things that reduce soul state in a balanced fashion, I am a bit at a loss
STELLARMAGUS
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/23/2014 08:42 PM CDT
I'd be tempted to come up with something modeled after the racial TDP bonuses/penalties.
Come up with a list of all possible things that can affect soul state and all possible modifications to the base code that every circle 1 paladin has to follow. Then, when a Paladin changes their alignment or swears a new fealty or whatever, for everything that grants an extra soul boost add something that'll reduce it.
Something like this ...
You could do the whole spectrum of immortals on there, as well as secular oaths of fealty assuming the justice system is ever updated with unique province laws. If the numbers are even and fit with the lore, that's a good start.
Come up with a list of all possible things that can affect soul state and all possible modifications to the base code that every circle 1 paladin has to follow. Then, when a Paladin changes their alignment or swears a new fealty or whatever, for everything that grants an extra soul boost add something that'll reduce it.
Something like this ...
| '' | Unaligned | Rutilor | Chadatru | Botolf |
| Pickpocketing | 0 | -1 | -1 | 0 |
| Tending Others | 0 | 0 | 0 | -2 |
| Tithing | +1 | 0 | 0 | +3 |
| Attacking First | 0 | -1 | 0 | 0 |
| Murder | -1 | -1 | -2 | 0 |
| Feeding Starving Creatures | 0 | +2 | +1 | -1 |
| Prayer | 0 | 0 | +2 | +0 |
You could do the whole spectrum of immortals on there, as well as secular oaths of fealty assuming the justice system is ever updated with unique province laws. If the numbers are even and fit with the lore, that's a good start.
STELLARMAGUS
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/23/2014 08:44 PM CDT
Should add a -3 penalty (or something suitably massive) for changing alignment beyond the first alignment change. That way change is possible but comes at a hefty price of some sort.
GNIKOLEYCHUK
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/23/2014 08:59 PM CDT
The problem I see with that is that using that scheme everyone should align to botolf and then worship whoever they like. There is very little penalty to aligning to Botolf, aside from being prevented from taking the very rare opportunity to save someone from bleeding to death or saving some poor trader's caravan. On the other hand by aligning to Botolf you get a free for all on everything else.
I would hope for something a bit more interesting -or- a token net penalty for swimming against the current, so to speak.
I would hope for something a bit more interesting -or- a token net penalty for swimming against the current, so to speak.
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/23/2014 09:00 PM CDT
>Should add a -3 penalty (or something suitably massive) for changing alignment beyond the first alignment change. That way change is possible but comes at a hefty price of some sort.
Disagree with this concept. It's punitive, and it's never that difficult to change alignment for guilds with similar systems, and it's never that costly or important. Clerics are probably the worst, with the candle/RT cost, and they get actual mechanical boosts (rank buffs) for it.
WMs cost nothing but 30 seconds of RT.
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
Disagree with this concept. It's punitive, and it's never that difficult to change alignment for guilds with similar systems, and it's never that costly or important. Clerics are probably the worst, with the candle/RT cost, and they get actual mechanical boosts (rank buffs) for it.
WMs cost nothing but 30 seconds of RT.
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
GNIKOLEYCHUK
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/23/2014 09:07 PM CDT
>>>> Clerics are probably the worst, with the candle/RT cost, and they get actual mechanical boosts (rank buffs) for it.
You have no idea how much I would love to be able to align none on my cleric. The grass is always greener, I guess.
Oh, I should also add, it does cost devotion to align to another god.
STELLARMAGUS
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/23/2014 09:21 PM CDT
<The problem I see with that is that using that scheme everyone should align to botolf and then worship whoever they like.
The stats can all be adjusted. Those were just example numbers. There should also probably be a lot more things that can affect your soul than just the examples I listed. I agree that each choice should have both good and bad consequences, of course. I do like the idea of an alignment choice where tithing is really the only way to gain more soul pool/increase soul state, and it should get expensive. Perhaps tiered such that the more pure you are the more you have to tithe for a further boost? Of the Chadatru aspects, Botolf seemed to fit the best since he's all about letting people off the hook. Perhaps a Kertigen aspect or some other Immortal might fight that bill a little better. Buy your way into heaven!
The stats can all be adjusted. Those were just example numbers. There should also probably be a lot more things that can affect your soul than just the examples I listed. I agree that each choice should have both good and bad consequences, of course. I do like the idea of an alignment choice where tithing is really the only way to gain more soul pool/increase soul state, and it should get expensive. Perhaps tiered such that the more pure you are the more you have to tithe for a further boost? Of the Chadatru aspects, Botolf seemed to fit the best since he's all about letting people off the hook. Perhaps a Kertigen aspect or some other Immortal might fight that bill a little better. Buy your way into heaven!
STELLARMAGUS
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/23/2014 09:26 PM CDT
<Disagree with this concept. It's punitive, and it's never that difficult to change alignment for guilds with similar systems, and it's never that costly or important. Clerics are probably the worst, with the candle/RT cost, and they get actual mechanical boosts (rank buffs) for it.
Perhaps certain gods should take offense if you turn away from them for another, perhaps? Asketi comes to mind as the sort to take it very seriously. She is known for killing people who fail to revere her, after all. There's a game called Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup that has a system in place where if you choose to worship a god, and then decide to stop worshipping said god and worship a second instead, the first god will periodically visit appropriate punishments on you for your betrayal. Although some of them don't mind if you worship their friends (Changing from Chadatru to Truffenyi wouldn't be as bad as changing from Chadatru to Dergati, as a possible example.)
Perhaps certain gods should take offense if you turn away from them for another, perhaps? Asketi comes to mind as the sort to take it very seriously. She is known for killing people who fail to revere her, after all. There's a game called Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup that has a system in place where if you choose to worship a god, and then decide to stop worshipping said god and worship a second instead, the first god will periodically visit appropriate punishments on you for your betrayal. Although some of them don't mind if you worship their friends (Changing from Chadatru to Truffenyi wouldn't be as bad as changing from Chadatru to Dergati, as a possible example.)
GNIKOLEYCHUK
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/23/2014 09:28 PM CDT
Actually, I was just thinking of a similar scheme (and saw how your suggestion was clever).
Botolf - less soul loss for certain things (first strike, stealing, murder), more for others (cowardice -- if you can't walk the walk don't talk the talk) and fewer options with harsher penalties to regain your soul. I like the bigger gains for tithing to let people "buy their way into heaven". Great idea. Basically this is a soul that is resistant to doing bad things but hard to maintain.
Chadatru - the current model. For simplicity I would think all paladins should be aligned to Chadatru for simplicity.
Rutilor - some mistakes are far more costly (murder, stealing and first strike) but they get a bonus to recover lost soul state. Basically a low maintenance soul, as long as you can keep your nose clean.
Botolf - less soul loss for certain things (first strike, stealing, murder), more for others (cowardice -- if you can't walk the walk don't talk the talk) and fewer options with harsher penalties to regain your soul. I like the bigger gains for tithing to let people "buy their way into heaven". Great idea. Basically this is a soul that is resistant to doing bad things but hard to maintain.
Chadatru - the current model. For simplicity I would think all paladins should be aligned to Chadatru for simplicity.
Rutilor - some mistakes are far more costly (murder, stealing and first strike) but they get a bonus to recover lost soul state. Basically a low maintenance soul, as long as you can keep your nose clean.
LIURIDR
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/23/2014 09:49 PM CDT
Not to mention if you do it inefficiently, you'll be locked to that alignment for quite a while (plus a fairly significant spirit hit.)
NRAY
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/23/2014 09:52 PM CDT
Okay I'm in the 'tweak the numbers and add a heck of a lot too it but the concept of modelling Codes after racial TDP costs is friggen awesome and genius' camp. Add more gods to customize with, add more secular customization options, and all the while giving us lots of fun quests to do it with! Using the TDP model, I think, is a great way to balance this stuff out.
I'll try to think of a few things, myself! Good post.
Oh, and this should all be optional and balanced, of course- especially citizenship and secular stuff affecting things. If you don't want to tweak your Code, don't do the quest that tweaks it with no punishments whatsoever. You would then stay with the Code you was taught as a squire by your original Guildmaster.
This also helps solve the 'secular knight vs. holy crusader' debate- you get to chose!
CARAAMON
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/24/2014 12:12 AM CDT
I have to say, paladins closer to the Crusader Knights does spark my imagination, even if I have no idea how to do it.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
LENNONJON
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/24/2014 06:41 AM CDT
<<I tend to see the 39 aspects as encompassing.. aspects that are found in all of us. They represent the good and bad that is in everyone and can choose our own paths accordingly. If a Paladin wants to focus on negative aspects or impulses to guide their actions, then do so, by all means.>>
This has always been Lennon's take. Few of you are likely to remember his developing manifesto the All-god (heck few in-game even know what the All-god is), and I honestly can't locate what I had written. But in general, his take is that these different "aspects" are just different faces of the same god. The 39 are basically what are left over from the One (or All). He bases his worship on the only two documents he knows of that contain references to the All-god.
From the 'Immortals':
"It is believed by some priests that all the gods are but one face; of a greater god. This greater god is worshipped by some priests; who feel choosing sides is unwise or who feel that worship of one; god is better for their personal faith. A few religions have; risen up around the belief in the One God, and it is very popular; in some regions of Elanthia."
From another book 'Origins of the Realms':
"At first was the Void, neither light nor dark, neither full nor empty. Such nothingness as is too dreadful to imagine. Into this Void, came the One who took the Void to wife. From the Void he caused to be conceived offspring, as the she-serpent carried in its body siblings, but all separate and alone behind hard shells, only to bring forth living things that are forever separated and unjoinable. So the One and the Void produced the Planes,
separate realms of world and being divided by irrevocable boundaries of time, space and essential forces.
When she realized that her children were destined by the Father to be ever separate, ever alone and ever full of woe, the Mother Void began to weep. Her tears flowed and flowed, and landing on the Planes, each tear produced a being of great power, born of pure Void. When he saw what his consort had created, the One became enraged, and into each of those eternal beings of pure Void, he imparted some of his own substance, until he had not enough to maintain his own being. With that, he was no more, and the Void, now containing within it a myriad of Planes and Immortals, ceased to exist."
So to Lennon, these 39 aspects are simply different sides of the same coin (yeah a strange coin indeed!); different personalities based on what the context of a situation dictates. To only worship 1, is to ignore the rest, and in essence to only focus on that one thing you like about the All. Sometimes the All-god behaves in-line with the justice we associate with the face we call Rutilor, kind and even-handed; sometimes Boltof, corrupt and tarnished. Sometimes he behaves along the lines of what we call Berengia, cheerful and bright; sometimes Asketi terrible and deadly. So Lennon crusades for this All-god, allowing his interpretation of the situation to dictate his behaviors. He is the All-gods Squire, a weapon and shield bearer for his justice. Hence his maker's mark:
Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."
Some of this may sound a little hokey, which is fine. When I was first trying to really develop this concept I went on my hiatus. I haven't really had a chance to try to flesh-it-out any further since I've been back. That and I was just woken up after 3-hours of sleep...
--Just a Squire
This has always been Lennon's take. Few of you are likely to remember his developing manifesto the All-god (heck few in-game even know what the All-god is), and I honestly can't locate what I had written. But in general, his take is that these different "aspects" are just different faces of the same god. The 39 are basically what are left over from the One (or All). He bases his worship on the only two documents he knows of that contain references to the All-god.
From the 'Immortals':
"It is believed by some priests that all the gods are but one face; of a greater god. This greater god is worshipped by some priests; who feel choosing sides is unwise or who feel that worship of one; god is better for their personal faith. A few religions have; risen up around the belief in the One God, and it is very popular; in some regions of Elanthia."
From another book 'Origins of the Realms':
"At first was the Void, neither light nor dark, neither full nor empty. Such nothingness as is too dreadful to imagine. Into this Void, came the One who took the Void to wife. From the Void he caused to be conceived offspring, as the she-serpent carried in its body siblings, but all separate and alone behind hard shells, only to bring forth living things that are forever separated and unjoinable. So the One and the Void produced the Planes,
separate realms of world and being divided by irrevocable boundaries of time, space and essential forces.
When she realized that her children were destined by the Father to be ever separate, ever alone and ever full of woe, the Mother Void began to weep. Her tears flowed and flowed, and landing on the Planes, each tear produced a being of great power, born of pure Void. When he saw what his consort had created, the One became enraged, and into each of those eternal beings of pure Void, he imparted some of his own substance, until he had not enough to maintain his own being. With that, he was no more, and the Void, now containing within it a myriad of Planes and Immortals, ceased to exist."
So to Lennon, these 39 aspects are simply different sides of the same coin (yeah a strange coin indeed!); different personalities based on what the context of a situation dictates. To only worship 1, is to ignore the rest, and in essence to only focus on that one thing you like about the All. Sometimes the All-god behaves in-line with the justice we associate with the face we call Rutilor, kind and even-handed; sometimes Boltof, corrupt and tarnished. Sometimes he behaves along the lines of what we call Berengia, cheerful and bright; sometimes Asketi terrible and deadly. So Lennon crusades for this All-god, allowing his interpretation of the situation to dictate his behaviors. He is the All-gods Squire, a weapon and shield bearer for his justice. Hence his maker's mark:
Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."
Some of this may sound a little hokey, which is fine. When I was first trying to really develop this concept I went on my hiatus. I haven't really had a chance to try to flesh-it-out any further since I've been back. That and I was just woken up after 3-hours of sleep...
--Just a Squire
NRAY
Re: Thoughts on the Paladin 'theme'
06/24/2014 07:51 AM CDT
That is pretty cool, Lennon. As a player I want to post that under the 'Kudos' folder. Well researched, consistent, intriguing, and committed to with titles like 'squire' at your circle and your maker's mark.
Sylvaeus would be far more hesitant to believe it. There are some lore books in game that he just plain labels 'they don't know what they are writing about'. lol.
His current (and through self-discovery, slowly and ever changing) hypothesis is that the Immortals were all once mortals that the All-God, for whatever reasons for each, elevated to their current status. Then, based on their mortal personalities, the All-God delegated to each a job to do on this particular planet.
After all, the Immortals don't seem to be physically involved with any other planet or celestial bodies besides the moons, right? Have the moon mages with their telescopes observed any other worlds in any detail at all? Are there any signs the Immortals have just as much jurisdiction on those worlds or does history record them only fighting this planet's World Dragon for this planet's biosphere?
Sylvaeus believes that the All-God deals with everything and the Immortals deal with this solar system.... he imagines other worlds, far from Elanthia, have their own Immortals created by the All-God to deal with their home worlds.
He explains the idea of 'Aspects' as a product of sheer age that we young ones can only label as insanity or extremely hard to understand because of our naivete: none of us can imagine what being 10,000+ (100,000?!) years old is like or what it would do to a person. Would the personality of a immortal being eventually grow in strength, essence, and complexity to the point that we 50-year-old babies have to put it into 3 separate categories to even begin to understand it?
I would like to see the paladin's SOUL connected directly to the All-God (mandatory for powers) and his/her HEART connected to an Immortal...... or none at all. Once again, I love the racial model for the Code and its soul-influencing aspects and how aligning with any particular Immortal could customize it.
Sylvaeus would be far more hesitant to believe it. There are some lore books in game that he just plain labels 'they don't know what they are writing about'. lol.
His current (and through self-discovery, slowly and ever changing) hypothesis is that the Immortals were all once mortals that the All-God, for whatever reasons for each, elevated to their current status. Then, based on their mortal personalities, the All-God delegated to each a job to do on this particular planet.
After all, the Immortals don't seem to be physically involved with any other planet or celestial bodies besides the moons, right? Have the moon mages with their telescopes observed any other worlds in any detail at all? Are there any signs the Immortals have just as much jurisdiction on those worlds or does history record them only fighting this planet's World Dragon for this planet's biosphere?
Sylvaeus believes that the All-God deals with everything and the Immortals deal with this solar system.... he imagines other worlds, far from Elanthia, have their own Immortals created by the All-God to deal with their home worlds.
He explains the idea of 'Aspects' as a product of sheer age that we young ones can only label as insanity or extremely hard to understand because of our naivete: none of us can imagine what being 10,000+ (100,000?!) years old is like or what it would do to a person. Would the personality of a immortal being eventually grow in strength, essence, and complexity to the point that we 50-year-old babies have to put it into 3 separate categories to even begin to understand it?
I would like to see the paladin's SOUL connected directly to the All-God (mandatory for powers) and his/her HEART connected to an Immortal...... or none at all. Once again, I love the racial model for the Code and its soul-influencing aspects and how aligning with any particular Immortal could customize it.
