>>The duration can last up to 10 to 12 hours (going off of memory) if you don't use it at all.

The biggest complaint I have with this is that it's RL time, not in-game time. I think as a skill booster warpaint's limitations are realistic but like I said I would love to wear it all the time as a roleplayer enhancer, even if I had to forfeit the possibility of using it as a stat booster.

>>Remove all aspect of passive affect for cylinder type warpaint, but in return, make it so that it is wearable 24/7 - basically, until the Barbarian chooses to remove it. The purpose of that type of warpaint should be entirely for role-playing.

I agree with this suggestion 100%. As I recall I had actually suggested, to Iayn, that cylinder warpaint be allowed to remain indefinitely given that it was decorative, but if I recall correctly even cylinder has a passive boost attached to it (however minimal that boost is).

I also agree with your sentiment that warpaint as an entity needs some work. Comparing it to roar helms isn't really viable, IMO, because roar helms were made available only once or twice during festivals, whereas Osgeth's tent is a staple for any festival, has appeared a couple times as a wandering merchant in towns, has randomly popped up on the islands at least once, etc. I think the Barb shop in Crossing even carried warpaint for a while? It seems to simultaneously be rare and common.

That's a difference right there. Warpaint should not be considered a special item in the hands or body of a Barbarian.

In terms of rarity:

Roar helms are special.
Fear resistance skins are special.
Inner fire refueling items are special.

Warpaint should not be deemed as special in terms of rarity. Warpaint is a supplement system to the big 3 for Barbarians.

Not everyone will have the ranks or stats necessary to fully utilize warpaint to it's fullest extent. That is the direction that should be taken.

When you make something producable by PCs, than the "have to be wearing warpaint" is less of an issue.

- Simon

>In theory yes. But certain weapon classes are just better because of forged/fletched weapons. And they never got downtweaked significantly. So I think this logic kind of fails in DR.

That's for a number of reasons I don't think are applicable here, including the complicated nature of the combat system, yada yada yada. And in theory, some of the upcoming changes to combat are to uptweak some of the other weapons, and most likely some of the creation system alterations will downtweak others (or uptweak the weak ones). In theory.

Regardless, in my opinion, anything that brings us closer to needing items is a bad thing. Part of my perception of the Barbarian Guild philosophy is "rely on yourself and nothing else." For me, warpaint is a neat ceremonial and special use item, and I would hate to see it become "Barbarian cambrinth."

---

Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html

Personally I'd prefer that warpaint remain in the 'uncommon' category as well. At the very least I don't want roars/other intimidation effects to be balanced on the assumption that warpaint will always/generally be used.

Granted, this is partially a self-serving preference on my part. I've recently gotten back into playing my Prydaen and the thought of smearing his fur with paint on a regular basis would give him fits.

---

Ogdaro
"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it." - W. C. Fields

>>What is stopping you from putting your battle warpaint on areas on a Prydaen's skin (not fur)?

Well judging from the official prydaen artwork and giving my own cats a brief once-over, I'd say the main thing stopping me is that they don't offer "plantar surface of the foot," "palmar surface of the hand," "surface of the eyeball (ouch!)," and "inside of the mouth," as options for where to apply warpaint. I'm not making a serious argument here, by the way. If I had to suffer a mechanical penalty for the sake of RP I'd gladly do it. Have plenty of other times, anyway.

---

Ogdaro
"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it." - W. C. Fields

I've always interpreted that as lighter colored, shorter fur. Both of my house cats have the same kind of lighter/finer fur around their mouth/on their chin and underbellies. I think reasonable arguments could be made either way for Prydaen. Anyhow, before I derail the thread any further I'll agree to disagree, heh.

To get back on topic though: I'm not sure I see what the benefit or point is, overall, to warpaint becoming essentially mandatory to the reasonable use of roars. Or is the argument that the overall function of warpaint should shift to something more closely resembling CJs or whatever?

I've got the flu pretty bad today, so I'm not retaining what I've read as well as usual.

---

Ogdaro
"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it." - W. C. Fields

>>No, not even close. It can be worn worn and it is a metal. That's where the similarities stop between chakrel and cambrinth. Mages are in tune with their environments. Barbarians need to seek their strength from within. You would think that a Barbarian could just know his own strength/chi without need of anything, but we have chakrel to reflect our own visions of ourselves. C'est la vie.

You're misunderstanding my purpose, Simon, seeing the forest for the trees or something to that effect. I'm not talking about the lore behind CJs and chakrel being similar; I am talking about the reality of the game mechanics, speaking purely from the perspective of myself, as a player, engaging a fictional game.

The stipulation Caraamon was making, IIRC, was that Barbarians are less item-dependent than other guilds. I agree 100% with this as a matter of theory; I was merely pointing out that, as a matter of reality, Barbarians are probably more item-dependent than any other guild in the game.

Mages adore cambrinth and have a very intrinsic relationship with it; indeed, they have a skill in their primary skillset (MD) delegated primarily to its use. That said, they are never required to use cambrinth. Cambrinth is no more essential to the casting of their spells than roar helms are to Barbarians using roars: it enhances the functionality of the cast and conveniences it, but it it not mandatory.

As a contrary, Barbarian use of items (chakrel, cigars, whatever) to check their inner fire is mandatory. IF is the pool from which we draw power for two of our three primary sets of abilities; we even have a roar and a combat maneuver that burns IF. It is essential to us.

That said, we can't even check our current pool size without an item! The only analog to this is Paladins needing soulstones to check their soul state. Like I said, mages have a bar in Stormfront to check their mana level at a glance. Clerics can COMMUNE with zero roundtime and no items. Et cetera et cetera.

So I agree 1000% that Barbarians should not become dependent on items like many mages are on cambrinth. That said, I was suggesting that we take note of the reality that Barbarians already are item-dependent to check their inner fire, and because of this we not be overly paranoid about Barbarians having access to accessible and user-friendly guild items so long as they never become mandatory.

>>CJs and warpaint are completely different. CJs can boost skills by a hundred ranks! Warpaint can boost stats up a little bit. The comparison is laughable.

As for this, I think you're misunderstanding my purpose again. I wasn't comparing the power they contribute to their respective guilds; allowing Barbarians to boost their charisma a couple points is nowhere near as powerful as a sudden booster shot of 100 ranks of target magic. That's obvious.

The question I was raising was in response to the notion that allowing Barbarians to wear warpaint indefinitely would force the GMs to weaken roars to "balance" them against the effects of warpaint.

I simply think that isn't true, and I was using CJs as an illustration. Any person with 1 rank in magical devices can use CJs to get a 100-rank boost to a skill, but never (I think it safe to assume) has one of the GMs been coding a spell or ability and balanced it against a possible boost from CJs. I somehow doubt Zeyurn was designing new skinning and thought to himself "wait, people can use CJs to boost their skinning! Better lower the experience!"

It's sort of a straw-man argument, IMO, and I was using CJs as an example when I was wondering aloud why warpaint decays over time, even when not invoked, whereas CJs do not. The analogy is most disingenious given warpaint is purchased and CJs are player-made; hopefully, at some point, warpaint will be player-made as well, and it can then become a more permanent part of Barbarian existence without a single fear of our abilities having to be weakened to compensate. That was my argument.

I don't think the analogy of warpaint to CJs is something that can be comparable. CJs are ridiculously overpowered and boost ranks.

Your point of Barbarians being item dependent to a degree is something I did agree with. However, what can you do with that? The items are already created.

Looking at it from a point of view where we should be less item dependent is good to an extent, but we shouldn't be disregarding the items that other GMs have created for us. If it's there, we should be working to improve it with ideas.

- Simon

>>Would there be some sort of issue with perhaps giving barbarians some sort of weapon bonding? The more you use a particular weapon the stronger the bond becomes? Maybe even have the bond decay over time....such as the bond weakening the longer the barbarian neglects to use that weapon?

>>Perhaps the bond could provide bonuses such as more inner fire per kill with that weapon, or a slight boost in the weapons stats....I'm sure there's plenty of other things that can be done.

i like the idea, minus the weapon stat increase.

_______________________________________
Naissura squints at the balance beam needle and says, "There's some stuff in here. All told, the backpack weighs about two thousand, one stones," and puts the backpack on the counter.

<<Obligatory: Kind of like dragon dance? (It has a rank boost potential MUCH higher than CJs.)>>

No. And you can choose any skill to boost with CJs. How anyone can think CJs are legitimate is beyond me.

- Simon

I take that last comment back on one part. I think it's ridiculous to compare the two, as they do two different things - one boosts overall and one boosts one skill very high so it does seem like comparing apples to oranges which is a ridiculous statement made by Copernicus. But, I do stand by my comment that CJs are OP'd because of the variety of skills you can apply that rank boost to.

- Simon

Chakrel =/= necessary. I hardly use mine, I just keep it 'cause it looks cool.

Far as forged weapons go, I don't think things are balanced around them - the removal of rare metals shows at least an attempt to balance forged weapons against the rest of the game instead of the other way around. Players may think of them as the standard, but they really just represent the upper cap of what is supposed to be possible.

---

Maulem exclaims, "Stop shootin da wimmins!"

Gene Police! You, outta the pool!

>Look at forged equipment. Once it became standard, most things are measured against it.

Except that the weapons that aren't forgable are weak even without the forged comparison.

Then there's slings, which actually can be tanned, but are still weak. Some weapon classes/combos/templates are just weak, separately from the forged issue.

Also, throwing blades are semi-OP for learning, kind of like CL. This is assuming you are in the skill range that allows you to consistently land hits. If not, this is not true.

I love my chakrel amulet! I check it all the time. Especially when I decide to stack more then blood and stone.


~Player of Khorgar, Dwarven Barbarian~


AIM: KhorgarDR

Ask folks in TF or Plat (though they have access to other stuff), store bought stuff works just fine.

You're illustrating my point perfectly. Once forged weapons became common, everything else became "weak"

I can't help but wonder whether or not the damage to learning ratio of weaponry has changed since forged equipment came out. I do know the relative difficulty of creatures has gone up several times over the years, though I have no idea if it's related in any way.

---

Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html

My response was moved to general discussion folder since the conversation isn't about warpaint anymore.

>>Also, throwing blades are semi-OP for learning, kind of like CL. This is assuming you are in the skill range that allows you to consistently land hits. If not, this is not true.

Throwing blades should never be compared to CL. Maximum of five thrown with a 5 second RT does not = 20+ bolts. Not to mention, the damage is so poor that I often need more LT ranks than normal to hunt a critter that usually demands less. It's always easier to learn when you're backtraining weapons instead of training them at level.

I think what you fail to realize is that landing 5 hits at once is an intended perk to offset a weapon that is very weak compared to the others. If you're backtraining this weapon, the perk will seem a lot better than what it truly is.

---

Vinjince

>>Weak compared to what?

>Compared to what would be neccessary to kill stuff.

Pretty much. Compare a crossing broadsword to any short staff in game. There's no comparison.

>Throwing blades should never be compared to CL. Maximum of five thrown with a 5 second RT does not = 20+ bolts. Not to mention, the damage is so poor that I often need more LT ranks than normal to hunt a critter that usually demands less. It's always easier to learn when you're backtraining weapons instead of training them at level.

I meant the overkill ability and the graze-to-lock ability. Granted, you can't compare ANYTHING to CL in terms of... well pretty much anything... and have it be a fair comparison.

>I think what you fail to realize is that landing 5 hits at once is an intended perk to offset a weapon that is very weak compared to the others. If you're backtraining this weapon, the perk will seem a lot better than what it truly is.

Actually, LT is my highest weapon, after brawling.