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>>I meant the overkill ability and the graze-to-lock ability.
The graze-to-lock ability of the blades is the result of them being so weak, unlike CL. Often times I'm still grazing celps with over 530 in LT, whereas someone with much less bow (lower to mid 400's) can blast them like crazy.
I'd absolutely love for the stats of the throwing blades to be improved/upgraded.
>>Actually, LT is my highest weapon, after brawling.
Even higher than TM? Also, your character has maxed out mentals, right? When I meant backtraining, I meant you were training your character's LT while having a lot more agility and other stats than the typical character would at your ranks.
Vinjince
VEE-REX
JMF90
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
04/06/2009 07:37 PM CDT
>The graze-to-lock ability of the blades is the result of them being so weak, unlike CL. Often times I'm still grazing celps with over 530 in LT, whereas someone with much less bow (lower to mid 400's) can blast them like crazy.
Eh, a more fair comparison is crossbows to LT. You can't use a shield with bows, and they're templates are definitely OP. Short bow is completely ridiculous.
>Even higher than TM?
Highest weapon skill, I said. If I were a bard, Vocals would almost be my highest "weapon" skill though (pretty much tied with TM).
>Also, your character has maxed out mentals, right? When I meant backtraining, I meant you were training your character's LT while having a lot more agility and other stats than the typical character would at your ranks.
Meh, I've capped out most stats, that doesn't mean I can't compare weapons.
Just to refocus the discussion, I'm not saying throwing blades are the best weapon for PvP, that would be silly. I'm saying that the mechanic for them doesn't really make sense, just like with CL. You have an instant attack, where each successive attack can unbalance you. That doesn't make sense. Then again, why should throwing 5 blades take longer than throwing 1?
Throwing blades work well if you can momentarily disable your opponent. Unlike bows/dfa, you still need some ranks to back up the attack.
Eh, a more fair comparison is crossbows to LT. You can't use a shield with bows, and they're templates are definitely OP. Short bow is completely ridiculous.
>Even higher than TM?
Highest weapon skill, I said. If I were a bard, Vocals would almost be my highest "weapon" skill though (pretty much tied with TM).
>Also, your character has maxed out mentals, right? When I meant backtraining, I meant you were training your character's LT while having a lot more agility and other stats than the typical character would at your ranks.
Meh, I've capped out most stats, that doesn't mean I can't compare weapons.
Just to refocus the discussion, I'm not saying throwing blades are the best weapon for PvP, that would be silly. I'm saying that the mechanic for them doesn't really make sense, just like with CL. You have an instant attack, where each successive attack can unbalance you. That doesn't make sense. Then again, why should throwing 5 blades take longer than throwing 1?
Throwing blades work well if you can momentarily disable your opponent. Unlike bows/dfa, you still need some ranks to back up the attack.
VEE-REX
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
04/06/2009 10:30 PM CDT
>>I'm saying that the mechanic for them doesn't really make sense, just like with CL.
Being able to land 5 attacks at once? I'm confused, that's intended.
>>You have an instant attack, where each successive attack can unbalance you.
This if false. The throwing blades were fixed so that they no longer unbalance an opponent regardless of whether they hit or not.
Also, the comparison to CL is false as well. CL inflicts nerve damage that makes the very next bolt more likely to hit you. According to Oolan at the Con, each throwing blade is contested against the victim's defenses at once and then the actual attack is applied.
Basically, the first throwing blade can stun someone, yet the third blade can be blocked. They don't work off each other like CL does with nerve damage. I can post countless logs of landing hard/strong hits and stunning stuff with the first few throwing blades, yet landing light/good strikes on the last few.
As I said, whether you want to call it backtraining or not (TM is your primary weapon/killing skill), Getting 80 in agility and then going back to whatever it is you're training against to work on your 400 in LT is going to skew your perception because your character's overly trained stats are going to influence the results.
Vinjince
Being able to land 5 attacks at once? I'm confused, that's intended.
>>You have an instant attack, where each successive attack can unbalance you.
This if false. The throwing blades were fixed so that they no longer unbalance an opponent regardless of whether they hit or not.
Also, the comparison to CL is false as well. CL inflicts nerve damage that makes the very next bolt more likely to hit you. According to Oolan at the Con, each throwing blade is contested against the victim's defenses at once and then the actual attack is applied.
Basically, the first throwing blade can stun someone, yet the third blade can be blocked. They don't work off each other like CL does with nerve damage. I can post countless logs of landing hard/strong hits and stunning stuff with the first few throwing blades, yet landing light/good strikes on the last few.
As I said, whether you want to call it backtraining or not (TM is your primary weapon/killing skill), Getting 80 in agility and then going back to whatever it is you're training against to work on your 400 in LT is going to skew your perception because your character's overly trained stats are going to influence the results.
Vinjince
GORDONS7
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
04/07/2009 06:44 AM CDT
Having recently been given cause to dust off my throwing blades, I think that, while they are a very cool concept (multiple blade throwing) the graze-to-lock feature, as Vinnie mentioned, is intended to present a semi-viable way of training LT, which, prior to these and the throwable light mallet I have from that fest (can't remember the actual LOOK just now, gettin ready to head to work), LT was a major pain to train, which I'm sure Vinnie and others can testify to as well.
As for me, I'd much rather the throwing blades keep their graze-to-lock feature. If I want to deal major damage with LT, I'll switch to my mallet (which I do anyway once I lodge all of my throwing blades into whatever I'm killing).
~Mammoth Rider Maulem Akavame, Death Dealer in training
As for me, I'd much rather the throwing blades keep their graze-to-lock feature. If I want to deal major damage with LT, I'll switch to my mallet (which I do anyway once I lodge all of my throwing blades into whatever I'm killing).
~Mammoth Rider Maulem Akavame, Death Dealer in training
DR-OOLAN
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
04/07/2009 07:03 AM CDT
>>As for me, I'd much rather the throwing blades keep their graze-to-lock feature. If I want to deal major damage with LT, I'll switch to my mallet (which I do anyway once I lodge all of my throwing blades into whatever I'm killing).
I hate to be a spoilsport, but there is no special feature in how the blades handle or reward experience gain. This so called graze-to-lock aspect you mention isn't some super sekret throwing blade tool. The blades use core combat for determining chances to hit, damage dealt if they hit and experience gained upon hitting. The only thing I can think of is that grazes do indeed offer experience and the fact this is increased by up to 5 attacks, potentially with stronger hits mixed in if you get a lucky trip in the RNG it makes it seem as if there is some special bonus. But there isn't.
GM Oolan Jeel
"The difference between theory and practice is that in theory, there is no difference between theory and practice."
- Richard Moore
I hate to be a spoilsport, but there is no special feature in how the blades handle or reward experience gain. This so called graze-to-lock aspect you mention isn't some super sekret throwing blade tool. The blades use core combat for determining chances to hit, damage dealt if they hit and experience gained upon hitting. The only thing I can think of is that grazes do indeed offer experience and the fact this is increased by up to 5 attacks, potentially with stronger hits mixed in if you get a lucky trip in the RNG it makes it seem as if there is some special bonus. But there isn't.
GM Oolan Jeel
"The difference between theory and practice is that in theory, there is no difference between theory and practice."
- Richard Moore
SUGARSNOUT
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
04/07/2009 10:31 AM CDT
>Obligatory: Kind of like dragon dance? (It has a rank boost potential MUCH higher than CJs.)
But not quite as high as the passive Ranger bonus.
But not quite as high as the passive Ranger bonus.
SUGARSNOUT
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
04/07/2009 10:42 AM CDT
>The blades use core combat for determining chances to hit, damage dealt if they hit and experience gained upon hitting.
It seemed to me something was off with their chance to hit.
While dancing Dragon and stanced attack 100, with 530 LT Vinjince threw 5 blades at me.
While dancing Badger and stanced 100 evasion 100 shield, with 390 evasion and 385 shield I was able to shield block 2 of the blades.
Maybe someone can copy the two of us and check things out, but it just seems strange to me that I'd be able to block even one of his throwing blades no matter what I'm dancing or stanced.
It seemed to me something was off with their chance to hit.
While dancing Dragon and stanced attack 100, with 530 LT Vinjince threw 5 blades at me.
While dancing Badger and stanced 100 evasion 100 shield, with 390 evasion and 385 shield I was able to shield block 2 of the blades.
Maybe someone can copy the two of us and check things out, but it just seems strange to me that I'd be able to block even one of his throwing blades no matter what I'm dancing or stanced.
NJP
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
04/07/2009 10:51 AM CDT
>>it just seems strange to me that I'd be able to block even one of his throwing blades no matter what I'm dancing or stanced.
It's hard to test things vs. shield like that because of the inherent "in the right place factor" of shields. Even a novice would have a base chance to just purely randomly block those blades. It's unfortunate that it's impossible to determine whether a shield block is from skill or this random chance aspect.
Figured you knew all that, but just thought I'd toss it out there.
Ogdaro
"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it." - W. C. Fields
It's hard to test things vs. shield like that because of the inherent "in the right place factor" of shields. Even a novice would have a base chance to just purely randomly block those blades. It's unfortunate that it's impossible to determine whether a shield block is from skill or this random chance aspect.
Figured you knew all that, but just thought I'd toss it out there.
Ogdaro
"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it." - W. C. Fields
SUGARSNOUT
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
04/07/2009 12:31 PM CDT
>It's hard to test things vs. shield like that because of the inherent "in the right place factor" of shields. Even a novice would have a base chance to just purely randomly block those blades. It's unfortunate that it's impossible to determine whether a shield block is from skill or this random chance aspect
I obviously don't have access to the code, but I'm fairly certain that's inaccurate.
I obviously don't have access to the code, but I'm fairly certain that's inaccurate.
VEE-REX
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
04/07/2009 12:32 PM CDT
>>It's hard to test things vs. shield like that because of the inherent "in the right place factor" of shields. Even a novice would have a base chance to just purely randomly block those blades.
Anyone with 400's in both shield and evasion can be very difficult for me to hit with my LT. Shield eats thrown like an ocular eats halflings. A buffed up mage with mid 300's in both shield and evasion can sometimes be difficult for me to hit with thrown, even if I'm dancing Dragon. 530 in any bow, and most melee weapons would destroy 400's in defenses, especially if the attacker was dancing Dragon. Not to mention that heavy armor with LT in particular is extremely noticable currently.
Anyway, I'm pretty used to the way things currently are, so it's no skin off my back. I'm hoping one day the effect of shield against thrown weapons is evaluated, though.
Vinjince
Anyone with 400's in both shield and evasion can be very difficult for me to hit with my LT. Shield eats thrown like an ocular eats halflings. A buffed up mage with mid 300's in both shield and evasion can sometimes be difficult for me to hit with thrown, even if I'm dancing Dragon. 530 in any bow, and most melee weapons would destroy 400's in defenses, especially if the attacker was dancing Dragon. Not to mention that heavy armor with LT in particular is extremely noticable currently.
Anyway, I'm pretty used to the way things currently are, so it's no skin off my back. I'm hoping one day the effect of shield against thrown weapons is evaluated, though.
Vinjince
DANFORDS2
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
04/07/2009 12:32 PM CDT
>I obviously don't have access to the code, but I'm fairly certain that's inaccurate.
It's been stated by multiple GMs that shields have a small percent chance to block an attack even if you fail the skill check.
Elemancer Opieus, Warrior Mage of Elanthia
>Aren't I pretty, now fall down on my ice, fool! ~ Axillus
It's been stated by multiple GMs that shields have a small percent chance to block an attack even if you fail the skill check.
Elemancer Opieus, Warrior Mage of Elanthia
>Aren't I pretty, now fall down on my ice, fool! ~ Axillus
JMF90
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
04/07/2009 12:38 PM CDT
>It's been stated by multiple GMs that shields have a small percent chance to block an attack even if you fail the skill check.
Yes, recently even.
Yes, recently even.
NJP
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
04/07/2009 12:46 PM CDT
>>I obviously don't have access to the code, but I'm fairly certain that's inaccurate.
A pox upon you for making me search through these intuitive and easy to navigate forums! :P Here's one of the relevant extracts/posts:
"Shields are very different than either evasion or parry. For one thing, they have protection ratings -- you'll see that on appraisals as fair to impressive protection, for example. Without going into details, what that basically means is that shields have some built-in bonuses that parry and evasion lack. On top of that, shields have a default chance to just accidently be in the right place at the right time."
-Dartenian
Here's the original post I pulled that from: https://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=11&topic=2&message=5942
Ogdaro
"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it." - W. C. Fields
A pox upon you for making me search through these intuitive and easy to navigate forums! :P Here's one of the relevant extracts/posts:
"Shields are very different than either evasion or parry. For one thing, they have protection ratings -- you'll see that on appraisals as fair to impressive protection, for example. Without going into details, what that basically means is that shields have some built-in bonuses that parry and evasion lack. On top of that, shields have a default chance to just accidently be in the right place at the right time."
-Dartenian
Here's the original post I pulled that from: https://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=11&topic=2&message=5942
Ogdaro
"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it." - W. C. Fields
VEE-REX
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
04/07/2009 01:19 PM CDT
I'm pretty certain that his shield blocks were not pure luck, since I usually have similar problems with people in his defensive skill range.
Vinjince
Vinjince
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
04/07/2009 01:38 PM CDT
>>I'm pretty certain that his shield blocks were not pure luck, since I usually have similar problems with people in his defensive skill range.
Thrown weapons are the only weapons in the game available immediately in combat (besides pre-loaded crossbow): no advancing, no prepping and targeting, no loading, no hiding. Just wield the weapon and throw. That's one reason why Malkien is HT primary.
I am very aware of this advantage. That said, I agree thrown weapons could definitely use a couple more perks. The entanglement weapons sounded good. I'd also enjoy dual thrown weapons; I think their power would easily be offset by the requirement of training an entirely different weapon skill (offhand) to throw them both at once.
-Joshua, player of Malkien
Thrown weapons are the only weapons in the game available immediately in combat (besides pre-loaded crossbow): no advancing, no prepping and targeting, no loading, no hiding. Just wield the weapon and throw. That's one reason why Malkien is HT primary.
I am very aware of this advantage. That said, I agree thrown weapons could definitely use a couple more perks. The entanglement weapons sounded good. I'd also enjoy dual thrown weapons; I think their power would easily be offset by the requirement of training an entirely different weapon skill (offhand) to throw them both at once.
-Joshua, player of Malkien
RAIST
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
04/07/2009 02:45 PM CDT
>>Thrown weapons are the only weapons in the game available immediately in combat
Unfortunately, for me, that seems like racing in a car with faster acceration but lower top speed. It might help in the short run, but in the long run, you lose.
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Unfortunately, for me, that seems like racing in a car with faster acceration but lower top speed. It might help in the short run, but in the long run, you lose.
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
NJP
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
04/07/2009 02:48 PM CDT
>>I'm pretty certain that his shield blocks were not pure luck, since I usually have similar problems with people in his defensive skill range.
Yeah, I wasn't really trying to insinuate that they were. What I meant to imply is that it's an impossible goal to seek, to ask that a character be incapable of blocking with a shield at that skill spread, because it's always possible, at any spread.
Ogdaro
"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it." - W. C. Fields
Yeah, I wasn't really trying to insinuate that they were. What I meant to imply is that it's an impossible goal to seek, to ask that a character be incapable of blocking with a shield at that skill spread, because it's always possible, at any spread.
Ogdaro
"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it." - W. C. Fields
WISECRACKDRAGON
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
04/07/2009 02:50 PM CDT
<<Unfortunately, for me, that seems like racing in a car with faster acceration but lower top speed. It might help in the short run, but in the long run, you lose.>>
I have three cars, and one of them's a repeater. HT+HX is fun!
Maulem exclaims, "Stop shootin da wimmins!"
Gene Police! You, outta the pool!
I have three cars, and one of them's a repeater. HT+HX is fun!
Maulem exclaims, "Stop shootin da wimmins!"
Gene Police! You, outta the pool!
JMF90
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
04/07/2009 03:04 PM CDT
>Unfortunately, for me, that seems like racing in a car with faster acceration but lower top speed. It might help in the short run, but in the long run, you lose.
Unless you're racing in the city, or a really curvy road.
Unless you're racing in the city, or a really curvy road.
SUGARSNOUT
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
04/07/2009 03:19 PM CDT
>"Shields are very different than either evasion or parry. For one thing, they have protection ratings -- you'll see that on appraisals as fair to impressive protection, for example. Without going into details, what that basically means is that shields have some built-in bonuses that parry and evasion lack. On top of that, shields have a default chance to just accidently be in the right place at the right time."
> -Dartenian
Interesting. Thanks for the quote, NJP, I guess I missed that one. I shall now eat my words.
Like Vinjince said, though - I'm pretty sure it's not really relevant in this scenario.
> -Dartenian
Interesting. Thanks for the quote, NJP, I guess I missed that one. I shall now eat my words.
Like Vinjince said, though - I'm pretty sure it's not really relevant in this scenario.
GORDONS7
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
04/07/2009 06:14 PM CDT
>>graze-to-lock
Admittedly I was piggybacking on Vinnie's terminology. However, I have seen a noticeably quicker time to lock with these blades and their relatively low hit power (most hits are grazing, light or good) as compared to other light weapons (LB, short staff, slings). I'm nowhere near able to throw 5 at once, but I'll admit I can throw 10 (with reapeated throws for the ones that don't lodge) in a relatively short amount of time. That's probably the reason it seems that LT locks a lot quicker than other light hitting weapons do.
~Mammoth Rider Maulem Akavame, Death Dealer in training
Admittedly I was piggybacking on Vinnie's terminology. However, I have seen a noticeably quicker time to lock with these blades and their relatively low hit power (most hits are grazing, light or good) as compared to other light weapons (LB, short staff, slings). I'm nowhere near able to throw 5 at once, but I'll admit I can throw 10 (with reapeated throws for the ones that don't lodge) in a relatively short amount of time. That's probably the reason it seems that LT locks a lot quicker than other light hitting weapons do.
~Mammoth Rider Maulem Akavame, Death Dealer in training
DWARB-POWER
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
06/10/2009 07:32 PM CDT
I know the GM who ran Osgeth left, however, what was the reason as to why the only tent that sells warpaint is always closed?
- Simon
- Simon
DR-AURDUN
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
06/10/2009 08:03 PM CDT
The theory was that it should be rare. I agree with that, to a degree. It has a good chance of being a bit more relaxed, though.
~GM Aurdun
Barbarians' Guild Advocate
Gor'Tog Co-Champion
History Guru
"Don't use logic on scientists. That's just mean." ~ GM Zeyurn
~GM Aurdun
Barbarians' Guild Advocate
Gor'Tog Co-Champion
History Guru
"Don't use logic on scientists. That's just mean." ~ GM Zeyurn
DWARB-POWER
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
06/10/2009 08:11 PM CDT
<<The theory was that it should be rare. I agree with that, to a degree. It has a good chance of being a bit more relaxed, though.>>
What are your plans with warpaint?
- Simon
What are your plans with warpaint?
- Simon
DR-AURDUN
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
06/11/2009 12:47 AM CDT
>What are your plans with warpaint?
It has a good chance of being a bit more relaxed, though.
The only real change I see is removing the possibility of a negative charisma mod.
~GM Aurdun
Barbarians' Guild Advocate
Gor'Tog Co-Champion
History Guru
"Don't use logic on scientists. That's just mean." ~ GM Zeyurn
It has a good chance of being a bit more relaxed, though.
The only real change I see is removing the possibility of a negative charisma mod.
~GM Aurdun
Barbarians' Guild Advocate
Gor'Tog Co-Champion
History Guru
"Don't use logic on scientists. That's just mean." ~ GM Zeyurn
LAUGHINGGOD
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
06/11/2009 02:36 AM CDT
I understand there's some mechanic in place regarding warpaint; if you wear a certain design on a certain body part, there's some sort of bonus. However, with the scarity of warpaint and the thousands (I think) of possible combinations, I'm not taking my few existing paints and just experimenting willy-nilly.
Quest or something would be nice to figure how to show off your warpaint the best.
Jusy sayin'
Kalkomar Axebiter
Grimis Stok
Quest or something would be nice to figure how to show off your warpaint the best.
Jusy sayin'
Kalkomar Axebiter
Grimis Stok
WISECRACKDRAGON
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
06/11/2009 08:38 AM CDT
Better yet, allow us to choose the spot and pattern (quest or no).
The pulzone lands a powerful strike that pokes the steel-tipped pulzone into the gryphon's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
The steel-tipped pulzone lodges itself shallowly into the forest gryphon!
The pulzone lands a powerful strike that pokes the steel-tipped pulzone into the gryphon's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
The steel-tipped pulzone lodges itself shallowly into the forest gryphon!
DWARB-POWER
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
06/11/2009 10:42 AM CDT
<<The only real change I see is removing the possibility of a negative charisma mod.>>
There should be a lot more changes to warpaint than that, but you are on the right thought process here. I hope we all can talk about this, but in a few posts from now.
<<The theory was that it should be rare.>>
This is what I want to focus on. Not that I just completely disagree with this theory in this particular case, but the reasoning as to why.
I understand how there are costs and benefits to anything. In some instances of the game, this is applied to beautifully. As an example of how this relates to Barbarians: intimidation roar boosting helms and fear resisting cloaks. These items are infinite in usage. The cloaks have a downtime before active usage again. The helms have a short duration of active usage.
Now let's look at some Barbarian items that are finite in usage (non-replenishable by PC means at the current time). One example is warpaint. It's an entire system in itself. A system that a GM devoted a large amount of time towards creating. One of the costs is that you have to buy it from the store and if you intend on using the system or testing the system (your intention is to be using it consistently). This doesn't really work too well for non-replenishable items that are only store-bought. It doesn't make sense for non-replenishable goods such as warpaint to be limited because of the way the warpaint system is set up into tiers that unlock different/multiple aspects:
Cylinder shape (basic warpaint)
Cone shape (savage) - boosts intimidation and fear resistance with SCREAM and CONCENTRATE, respectfully.
Cube shape (berserker warpaint) - boosts intimidation, fear resistance and charisma with SCREAM, CONCENTRATE, STARE.
Brick shape (plunderer warpaint) - boosts intimidation, fear resistance, charisma and discipline with SCREAM, CONCENTRATE, STARE and MEDITATE.
The warpaint system is limited depending on which warpaint type you use AND it is already non-replenishable. It takes coins in one spot of the game currently to buy it from a shop. It is limited in the verbs used based on the type of warpaint you have. It fades away even without usage. There's a downtime when you can use the verb again to have the full affects of the verb. There's duration for when the verb is in use. There's a possibility to get a negative hex when using the verb. The fact it is a non-replenishable good by the fact you cannot refill the warpaint yourself and only go to one spot is a big enough cost.
Rarity used as a cost makes sense in some cases with the guild because of the nature if the item can be used at all times infinitely with a downtime or small duration (intimidation boosting helms/fear boosting cloaks) compared to items where the amount of times you can use them go down with a tiered system of different affects/verbs.
Hmm, but why does Simon not mention Cynr's ales as something that should be reviewed toward unlocking every type of Cynr's ale?
Easily, because Cynr's ale has ONE affect - to recover voice. ONE purpose. Based on the warpaint type, I can only have access to those verbs for that particular type. Although both are non-replenishable goods because PCs cannot renew them (apples to apples comparison), they are in fact entirely different systems to compare because one has one affect and the other system has multiple affects.
Due to the nature of the system, the rarity of warpaint needs to be reviewed. The shop is already out. The developer put a lot of time into this system and it doesn't make sense for Barbarians to not be able to use the system to the extent that the developer invested time into it.
- Simon
There should be a lot more changes to warpaint than that, but you are on the right thought process here. I hope we all can talk about this, but in a few posts from now.
<<The theory was that it should be rare.>>
This is what I want to focus on. Not that I just completely disagree with this theory in this particular case, but the reasoning as to why.
I understand how there are costs and benefits to anything. In some instances of the game, this is applied to beautifully. As an example of how this relates to Barbarians: intimidation roar boosting helms and fear resisting cloaks. These items are infinite in usage. The cloaks have a downtime before active usage again. The helms have a short duration of active usage.
Now let's look at some Barbarian items that are finite in usage (non-replenishable by PC means at the current time). One example is warpaint. It's an entire system in itself. A system that a GM devoted a large amount of time towards creating. One of the costs is that you have to buy it from the store and if you intend on using the system or testing the system (your intention is to be using it consistently). This doesn't really work too well for non-replenishable items that are only store-bought. It doesn't make sense for non-replenishable goods such as warpaint to be limited because of the way the warpaint system is set up into tiers that unlock different/multiple aspects:
Cylinder shape (basic warpaint)
Cone shape (savage) - boosts intimidation and fear resistance with SCREAM and CONCENTRATE, respectfully.
Cube shape (berserker warpaint) - boosts intimidation, fear resistance and charisma with SCREAM, CONCENTRATE, STARE.
Brick shape (plunderer warpaint) - boosts intimidation, fear resistance, charisma and discipline with SCREAM, CONCENTRATE, STARE and MEDITATE.
The warpaint system is limited depending on which warpaint type you use AND it is already non-replenishable. It takes coins in one spot of the game currently to buy it from a shop. It is limited in the verbs used based on the type of warpaint you have. It fades away even without usage. There's a downtime when you can use the verb again to have the full affects of the verb. There's duration for when the verb is in use. There's a possibility to get a negative hex when using the verb. The fact it is a non-replenishable good by the fact you cannot refill the warpaint yourself and only go to one spot is a big enough cost.
Rarity used as a cost makes sense in some cases with the guild because of the nature if the item can be used at all times infinitely with a downtime or small duration (intimidation boosting helms/fear boosting cloaks) compared to items where the amount of times you can use them go down with a tiered system of different affects/verbs.
Hmm, but why does Simon not mention Cynr's ales as something that should be reviewed toward unlocking every type of Cynr's ale?
Easily, because Cynr's ale has ONE affect - to recover voice. ONE purpose. Based on the warpaint type, I can only have access to those verbs for that particular type. Although both are non-replenishable goods because PCs cannot renew them (apples to apples comparison), they are in fact entirely different systems to compare because one has one affect and the other system has multiple affects.
Due to the nature of the system, the rarity of warpaint needs to be reviewed. The shop is already out. The developer put a lot of time into this system and it doesn't make sense for Barbarians to not be able to use the system to the extent that the developer invested time into it.
- Simon
VEE-REX
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
06/11/2009 10:54 AM CDT
All you gotta do is stock up when it opens. I still have tons of warpaint from when it was first released in the game. It's not like it's expensive. I don't use it every day, but I never thought War Paint was something designed for every day use.
Vinjince
Vinjince
WISECRACKDRAGON
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
06/11/2009 11:14 AM CDT
The contest for applying warpaint is pretty lame. Mech lore (which is going to be divided up at some point anyway), random modifier (I think), and penalty when applying it to yourself, plus whatever else goes into it...
Agility modified by reflex would be better, I think. I just dislike how strange and complex Barbarian contests seem to be in general (roars anyone?).
The pulzone lands a powerful strike that pokes the steel-tipped pulzone into the gryphon's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
The steel-tipped pulzone lodges itself shallowly into the forest gryphon!
Agility modified by reflex would be better, I think. I just dislike how strange and complex Barbarian contests seem to be in general (roars anyone?).
The pulzone lands a powerful strike that pokes the steel-tipped pulzone into the gryphon's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
The steel-tipped pulzone lodges itself shallowly into the forest gryphon!
NJP
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
06/11/2009 11:21 AM CDT
>>I just dislike how strange and complex Barbarian contests seem to be in general
/agree
Ogdaro
"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it." - W. C. Fields
/agree
Ogdaro
"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it." - W. C. Fields
DR-AURDUN
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
06/11/2009 12:35 PM CDT
>/agree
~GM Aurdun
Barbarians' Guild Advocate
Gor'Tog Co-Champion
History Guru
"Don't use logic on scientists. That's just mean." ~ GM Zeyurn
~GM Aurdun
Barbarians' Guild Advocate
Gor'Tog Co-Champion
History Guru
"Don't use logic on scientists. That's just mean." ~ GM Zeyurn
DWARB-POWER
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
06/11/2009 01:55 PM CDT
<<All you gotta do is stock up when it opens.>>
Kind of a moot point if it doesn't open.
- Simon
Kind of a moot point if it doesn't open.
- Simon
VEE-REX
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
06/11/2009 02:24 PM CDT
It has opened several times already. I agree it has been awhile since the last time, which I believe was at the festival of the gods.
Vinjince
Vinjince
DWARB-POWER
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
06/11/2009 02:28 PM CDT
<<It has opened several times already. I agree it has been awhile since the last time, which I believe was at the festival of the gods.>>
Just think of that policy for a moment. The whole "stock up" at least one time thing.
Is that a good policy for a guild wide ability to use? What if dances, berserks, roars, khri, spells were only available at a one time thing and were not replenishable - still a good policy for a guild wide ability to use?
- Simon
Just think of that policy for a moment. The whole "stock up" at least one time thing.
Is that a good policy for a guild wide ability to use? What if dances, berserks, roars, khri, spells were only available at a one time thing and were not replenishable - still a good policy for a guild wide ability to use?
- Simon
JMF90
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
06/11/2009 02:30 PM CDT
The stock up philosophy is also annoying if you don't have an alt to dump items on.
VAWN
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
06/11/2009 02:32 PM CDT
>>Is that a good policy for a guild wide ability to use? What if dances, berserks, roars, khri, spells were only available at a one time thing and were not replenishable - still a good policy for a guild wide ability to use?
My opinion is that this is the intended flavor of warpaint. I have no problem with one aspect of the guild having limited availability, especially when it is not intended to be used daily anyhow. I view warpaint much the same as roar helms, which I am also okay with being not as widely available.
~Talo, Prydaen Barbarian~
My opinion is that this is the intended flavor of warpaint. I have no problem with one aspect of the guild having limited availability, especially when it is not intended to be used daily anyhow. I view warpaint much the same as roar helms, which I am also okay with being not as widely available.
~Talo, Prydaen Barbarian~
VEE-REX
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
06/11/2009 02:35 PM CDT
>>Is that a good policy for a guild wide ability to use? What if dances, berserks, roars, khri, spells were only available at a one time thing and were not replenishable - still a good policy for a guild wide ability to use?
For main abilities? No. War Paint isn't one of our main abilities. I know War Paint needs a little work on different areas, but I don't see why it needs to be available all the time. The shop should be opened up more often but I'd like for it to close often as well.
Vinjince
For main abilities? No. War Paint isn't one of our main abilities. I know War Paint needs a little work on different areas, but I don't see why it needs to be available all the time. The shop should be opened up more often but I'd like for it to close often as well.
Vinjince
DWARB-POWER
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
06/11/2009 02:36 PM CDT
<<My opinion is that this is the intended flavor of warpaint. I have no problem with one aspect of the guild having limited availability, especially when it is not intended to be used daily anyhow. I view warpaint much the same as roar helms, which I am also okay with being not as widely available.>>
But, they are not the same. This is EXACTLY what I was addressing two posts ago in this folder.
One can be used infinitely used (roar helms) and one is a consumable (warpaint). The infinite usage of roar helms allows the limited amount of them in the game to be a viable feature as a COST. The same cannot be said for something that is already a consumable.
Comparison of the two is the same as comparing apples to oranges.
- Simon
But, they are not the same. This is EXACTLY what I was addressing two posts ago in this folder.
One can be used infinitely used (roar helms) and one is a consumable (warpaint). The infinite usage of roar helms allows the limited amount of them in the game to be a viable feature as a COST. The same cannot be said for something that is already a consumable.
Comparison of the two is the same as comparing apples to oranges.
- Simon
WISECRACKDRAGON
Re: Where to buy Warpaint?
06/11/2009 02:37 PM CDT
<<The stock up philosophy is also annoying if you don't have an alt to dump items on.>>
I've been wondering whether I wanna deal with no vault space or having to transfer the paint to and from an alt on my only account.
Come to think of it I'd rather do neither, heh.
This does raise a valid point though - releasing it from a shop like this doesn't make it rare, just inconvinient and inaccessible to some unlucky people. Rich folks can still buy a metric ton of paint, but someone who wants some after the shop has closed is outta luck unless one of those rich folks decides to sell.
So, what I get from this is that rarity of warpaint is a bit of a myth - some people have plenty - and yet it hasn't broken the game. Given that observation, perhaps opening it up at a higher price but with infitite supply, or better yet making it player-craftable, wouldn't be such a bad thing.
The pulzone lands a powerful strike that pokes the steel-tipped pulzone into the gryphon's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
The steel-tipped pulzone lodges itself shallowly into the forest gryphon!
I've been wondering whether I wanna deal with no vault space or having to transfer the paint to and from an alt on my only account.
Come to think of it I'd rather do neither, heh.
This does raise a valid point though - releasing it from a shop like this doesn't make it rare, just inconvinient and inaccessible to some unlucky people. Rich folks can still buy a metric ton of paint, but someone who wants some after the shop has closed is outta luck unless one of those rich folks decides to sell.
So, what I get from this is that rarity of warpaint is a bit of a myth - some people have plenty - and yet it hasn't broken the game. Given that observation, perhaps opening it up at a higher price but with infitite supply, or better yet making it player-craftable, wouldn't be such a bad thing.
The pulzone lands a powerful strike that pokes the steel-tipped pulzone into the gryphon's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
The steel-tipped pulzone lodges itself shallowly into the forest gryphon!
