>>but it's a simple enough test if anyone wants to give it a shot. Just take an unhidden dual-loaded shot and then snipe and poach

Yeah, if you do it a thousand times. On fresh creatures, with the same balance.

Samsaren

>I don't think it's unreasonable to say Barbs can't use ALL their buffs simultaneously, because many guilds can't, but Barbs by far have the heaviest restrictions in place, in terms of IF, slot cost, and number of abilities they can use simultaneously.

This is especially true at low levels without masteries. My low circle barbarian feels so weak I just can't play him anymore.

Yes, at low levels barbs really struggle. Without any of the masteries it's a real pain to get buffs going.

Jhalia: I count 17 cleric buffs (1 cyclic debil + 16 buffs). Of those, 7 are useless in most hunting areas (think: dr, undead-focused, anti-magic), and one exists only as a vehicle for additional buffs.

My barb normally hunts with 12 buffs (5 form, 5 zerk, 2 meditations) + 6 maseteries for 18 total buffs active. Let's compare the buff suites, the ones I had active above and what appears to be all clerical ones:


Difference:
Cleric: +defending, +anti-magic, +barrier vs spirit, +barrier vs ranged and tm, emergency knockback, light, charisma, undead specific buffs
vs
Barb: +weapon, +stamina, +power/balance of weapon +reduced critical miss, +armor skill, +improved WW, +vit heal, +weapon speed, +roar area, +stealth

The rest is overlap. I'd rather have the barb buff suite -- and that's without some of the other berserks I could run. If I could also run the rest of my forms, that hard limit didn't exist, my buff suite would be ridiculous in comparison.

To compare these, defending and +armor skills are roughly equivalents.
Emergency knockback and roar area are similar in value.
So it's 3 barriers, a light source, undead specific buffs, and +charisma -- which aren't used vs most critters vs significant weapon buffs, stam, vitheal, and stealth or whatever I have in that utility 5th slot (I keep it as anti-magic vs magic users obviously).

Guilds are different, but honestly I don't find my buffset to be lacking. It doesn't feel lacking as someone who's leveled decently high alts in other guilds as well. It's not general PvE that concerns me as a barb player, it's the speed killing that other classes can get from passive AOE damage sources.

>Cleric: +defending, +anti-magic, +barrier vs spirit, +barrier vs ranged and tm, emergency knockback, light, charisma, undead specific buffs

Respectfully, I think you're not using all your Clerical buffs by a long shot - lets just put aside the +UndeadCombat stuff, for the sake of comparison -

Auspice, Benediction, Centering, HYH-MALE/COZ or GhS, GG, MAPP, MPP, POM, SaP buffing (which is kind of optional and irrelevant actually I'd say for this), SoL, and SoS. That results in -

+Charisma, +Agility, +Reflex, +Strength, +Balance, -OF/DF or Gear or -TM/Ranged Damage, +Wisdom, +Defending, +Evasion, +Barrier, +AttunementRegen, +Warding/Utility/Augmentation/Debilitation oomph, +Shield (and a snazzier, larger shield than armor terts should get!), and +vsSpirit.

That is... incredible. Yes, Clerics cannot natively buff +WeaponSkill or +TMAgainstLiving (they can against the undead!), but Sorcery covers this. Communes ALSO provide for no spellslot cost some of the perks that Barb abilities provide - Blood Staunching and Athletics for example. And where Clerics don't have a +WeaponSkill, they have +Agility and +Strength! And where they don't have +TMAgainstTheLiving, they have both Immortal Alignment, a Commune for +TMAgainstUndead, native buffing of Wisdom, and access to Sorcery!

Mind you, Benediction is admittedly one of the games most potent self-buffs, and HYH-MALE is a super solid debuffs (along with DALU), but Benediction is TWO spellslots for THREE stat buffs. To match Agility, Reflex, and Strength, Barbs must run a berserk and two forms, which represents a sizable chunk of the total number of buffs they can run, AND, this will cost them more than two training sessions. HYH-MALE will cost a Cleric four slots, but compare that to most of the Barb roars, which aren't mind you general OF/DF debuffs, and can cost anywhere from 1-4 training sessions.

Mind you, at 80th, my Cleric doesn't even have all these buffs - I didn't pick up GG or SoS.

Jhalia, I think you missed the word 'unique'. All the buffs you added to that list don't fit that criteria. Except.. wisdom and immortal alignment?

It doesn't really make sense to say 'both have +str' when making a comparison of the unique buffs.

Yes, their individual abilities as part of that buffset are different, and benediction is obviously incredible. That doesn't change that the buffset I'm comparing it to (happily, the one I posted) still buffs those same stats.

I'd stand by my prior comparison, even missing those two. The barb buffset doesn't feel lacking. The biggest thing they miss out on is sorcery & symboisis to let them use other guilds buffs and fill in weak spots. But even that isn't major as they can buff pretty much every major ability, and certainly every important combat ability.

Are the cleric buffs incredibly good? Of course, they're among if not the best. So given that barb doesn't feel lacking in comparison when you look at the full suite of available buffs that can be run simultaneously then says something.

But why compare just uniques? Ultimately this all breaks down to +offense or +defense, and how much you can run. Barbs have great access, but cannot run many simultaneously. I don't think talking about uniques is that useful, for the same reason I don't think paladin's having divine armor inherently makes them better off than anyone else defensively. Not all stats and skills are equivalent.

Ultimately I feel like my Barb needs more offensive oomph because his defenses peeled ahead of his primary weapons with all the side training he was doing. Unfortunately, running the full suite of offensive abilities means he has very little room for running much else. Imagine telling a cleric they could only have two augs, two wards, and one utility spell up.

Sorry, perhaps I still wasn't clear enough:

Every other buff you mentioned for cleric, I have an equivalent ACTIVE buff on the barb. Sure, if you want to compare the full list, it looks like this:

---

centering (balance)
auspice (cha, spirit)
mpp (phy damage reduc)
pfe (undead only)
mapp (defending, evasion)
SL (anti-magic)
soul shield (barrier vs spirit)
ghost shroud (cyclic, barrier vs ranged and tm)
bene (+agi ref str)
halo (knockback, dmg vs undead?)
sol (+shield)
bless (+dmg vs undead)
dr (light source)
sap (+one of aug ward debil util)
pom (+attunement, regen)
om - stores some of these spells
Whatever gives +wis
Cyclic debil
Immortal alignment (buff 2 magic skills, debuff 3)

Total - 16 buffs.
Of these, 1 is useful only in dark rooms as a buff (DR), 1 is useful only to carry some of the others (OM), 2 are undead only (pfe/bless), and 1 is not particularly useful for pve (auspice)

That leaves you with 11 pre-sorcery.

You have: balance, phys dam reduction, +defending, +evasion, anti-magic, barrier vs spirit, barrier vs ranged and tm, +agi, + ref + str, +shield, +one magic skill, +attunement (and regen), and an emergency knockback. You'll also have cyclic debil. Note: I missed wisdom and immortal alignment when I did this mapping originally.

On the other hand, I have:

Powermonger (+IF, IF regen limit)
Yogi (Med in combat, -cost)
Titan (-berserk cost)
Stragos (+IF from kills, roar area)
Tribalist (+debil, -form cost)
Dervish (imp WW)
Contemplation (+Augmentation, +all armors)
Tenacity (physical damage reduc)
Famine (vit heal)
Tsunami (+power and balance of weapon; reduced crit miss)
Wildfire (+agi, weapon speed)
Earthquake (cyclic AOE debil)
Tornado (+shield, +stam)
Monkey (+ref, balance)
Piranha (+eva)
Dragon (+all melee)
Bear (+ward, +str)
Panther (+Stealth)

balance, phys dam reduc, +evasion, +agi, +ref, +str, +shield, +3 magic skills, + attunement and regen equivs, +stealth, +weapon, +stamina, +power/balance of weapon, reduced critical miss, +armor skill, improved WW, med in combat.

Difference:
Cleric: +defending, +anti-magic, +barrier vs spirit, +barrier vs ranged and tm, emergency knockback,
vs
Barb: +weapon, +stamina, +power/balance of weapon +reduced critical miss, +armor skill, +improved WW, +vit heal, +weapon speed, +roar area, 2 buffed magic skills.

---

I don't think that adding the whole list, to get down to the summary at the bottom was particularly meaningful, if two guilds have the same active buffs, what distinguishes between them is what they have that's different, not what they have that is the same. I guess you could look at how many of them are in the primary SOI vs secondary and see how good the buffs are relative to eachother, but that is more effort than I'm willing to go down.

It sounds to me like your barb is missing masteries, and should be focused on getting those so that s/he can better maintain the buff suite. I would agree that the amount of time it takes before you can maintain a lot of the buffs consistently is extreme. However, if you could maintain all of the barb buffs, they would frankly be too strong.

I would agree that my defenses are ahead of my weapons (as I train all weapons). However, weapon masteries pull my weapon ranks up.

Ah, I see what you mean. I disagree with some specifics, but see your point. My Barb is missing Titan, which would pendant let him run the full allowance of berserks. What circlel are you ?

Still unaddressed is why barbs lack the damage source everyone but thieves and traders enjoy, and why it take such heavy mastery investment to use the abilities.

Heh. By addressed I didnt mean 'summarize what we all agree is a problem', but yes, what you said.

132 circle. How many is the full allowance of berserks? I know I can have 6 going at a time, but I only have 6 and don't think there are really any more worth learning for non-situational purposes (or pvp). Similarly, I only have 2 meditations worth using all the time in combat.

I agree -- the mastery investment is extreme to just be able to get on the same level as other guilds were 60-70 circles ago. That said, we are at least room agnostic for our abilities, we don't need to worry about good or bad rooms, and we don't need to worry about killing our attunement by putting up all our buffs one after another. I don't think that barbs necessarily need AOE damage the way that most guilds have. I would be happy with an expertise-based attack that did extreme damage, similar to backstab :).

>Out of curiosity, is the complaint related to training or just killing in general. If the former, I can't think of too many reasons why anyone would want to kill extremely fast.

Barbs regenerate Inner Fire on the kill shot in PVE. It is important to barbs to "kill" their enemies as fast as possible to not drop their buffs (in general).

Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!

Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0

I believe kodius stated that if gain from kills is limited to 'one kill grants credit per minute's or something like that. If you whirlwind four critters dead, I think you only get credit for killing one.

In my case, if management feels pretty weird.

Would argue compeititive killing is everything in an MMO especially relative to other players. Right now the real essence of the problem is that I'm putting in the same amount of time into the game and getting out much less than some other guilds. This is a deal breaker for me, everything else I don't mind too much.

>Would argue compeititive killing is everything in an MMO especially relative to other players. Right now the real essence of the problem is that I'm putting in the same amount of time into the game and getting out much less than some other guilds. This is a deal breaker for me, everything else I don't mind too much.

I usually dislike when someone responds to a post with "switch guilds" because there's rarely just one reason someone chooses a guild. However, in this case it sounds like the most important thing to you is killing as fast as possible, and... Thing is even if cyclic TM is reevaluated and the one or two overpowered spells are brought in line, barbs are likely still going to kill slower than warrior mages because it's just always been that way and the trend continues in that direction. It's just their thing, I guess.

I think you might really enjoy trying out the warrior mage guild. Just give it a shot for a few weeks and see how it feels. You might really enjoy their playstyle, and you can always come back to your barb if it turns out to not be your cup of tea. There's no point rushing to 150 because passed a certain point the game doesn't get better the higher you go in circle.

Alternatively, and I know I've stated this already, please make sure you're using the best weapon setup to fit your goals. For barbs that's at least a stick bow, a thrown weapon and a heavy melee weapon, but preferably every freakin' weapon because you're a barb. If you don't keep all three of those weapon types at least somewhat close to your main and your goal is killing fast, you need to rework your weapon setup if you want to stick with barb. Otherwise, you're probably going to stay unhappy. Also, crafted weapons are more important than crafted armor. If you're 100th circle and you're not sporting at least kertig/haralun/glaes metal weapons and comparable tier wood weapons, you need to work toward investing in those ASAP.

Also, start learning how to PvP on your barb. It may suck losing initially, but when you start to learn how your guild works and how to counter other guilds' stuff, you'll probably find a greater appreciation for your abilities. Log your fights and revisit your wins and losses to think about what you can do differently next time. That goes for all guilds, really.

Is Kodius our barb GM programmer?

Lanival: If you feel like you're getting less out of your time than others, you're probably doing something wrong.

Reality check; if you're circle chasing as you've said you have been, you're going through the hunting ladders significantly faster than any other guild. If you're hunting wyverns after 1,000 hours of effort and someone else is doing it after 2,000 hours of effort, but kills them more rapidly than you did, are you getting more or less out of your time? I'd say you're getting more out of your time because you've moved through the game more rapidly. If you're not circle chasing, you're training weapons wide and it gives you a ton of options and makes you highly effective at pvp.

Btw, this is in no way a judgement against the programmers or staff. The staff here is 100 times more player friendly and logical than the staff of GSIV which I started up a few months back. In fact, if this was GSIV I wouldn't even be able to post here. I have absolutely no confidence in the staff over at GSIV. Anyhow, DR staff is just plain awesome especially with events and the way they approached the monetization of F2P. 10/10 for DR Staff, Programmers, Assistants, events people, mentors etc.

As someone with Altitis, and find playing multiple guilds to be a lot of fun, and indeed, what keeps me in DR. Bouncing between characters helps ward off the doldrums!

As for how to fix it - Barbs need an additional damage source. A berserk or form or meditation that either pulse hits whatever your facing or whatever youre engaged with, or randomly counter attacks, etc.

Ranks basically at this point mostly just help everyone to hit. You have to grossly outclass to see some serious bump in damage, otherwise. I think a simple solution to balance things out would be make weapon primaries hit hardest with weapons in a way that is in line with how hard the best MUs can hit with magic, secondaries hit lower with weapons than primaries, and terts lower than secondaries.

"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade

Sorry, one more suggestion that may be easier to implement.

> Overloading offensive stats.

Let everyone increase their offensive stance to 110% at the cost of reducing defensive points. May be tied to weapon skills some how like defensive stance points are tied to the defense skill. Barbarians get 110%. Secondaries get 105%. This would be a nice perk to paladins too. Defensive skills can go up to 110%. Armor secondaries can go to 105%.