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I don't support a change to the entire bolting system because that would break even more things at the pre-cap level. The disparity only exists in the post-cap power ceiling. Pre-cap, both the warding system and bolting system have their own tradeoffs, as someone who has leveled non-wizard pures both ways.
That's why the suggestions I make are for a limited duration booster or other effect that would increase the effectiveness of our existing bolt spells such that they achieve the same effect only at a post-cap level.
LADYFLEUR
BLSLOVE
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/05/2017 06:06 PM CDT
>>I don't support a change to the entire bolting system because that would break even more things at the pre-cap level. The disparity only exists in the post-cap >>power ceiling. Pre-cap, both the warding system and bolting system have their own tradeoffs, as someone who has leveled non-wizard pures both ways.
>>That's why the suggestions I make are for a limited duration booster or other effect that would increase the effectiveness of our existing bolt spells such that >>they achieve the same effect only at a post-cap level.
I'd like to see details or specifics of your idea. If you've already posted it, I apologize for missing it.
>>That's why the suggestions I make are for a limited duration booster or other effect that would increase the effectiveness of our existing bolt spells such that >>they achieve the same effect only at a post-cap level.
I'd like to see details or specifics of your idea. If you've already posted it, I apologize for missing it.
LADYFLEUR
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/05/2017 06:19 PM CDT
>I'd like to see details or specifics of your idea. If you've already posted it, I apologize for missing it.
There are a couple that have been thrown out there. The easiest to adapt and test would be a single-target 950 that only functions with single-target spells (not mass disablers, knockdowns, cone, etc.) and that has no cooldown. The spell is already built, and it would be the easiest path to add a couple limitations with an evoke option. 950 works because, like 240, a primary component is scaling AS/CS and it involves a slew of simultaneous bolts. With bolt kill probability being what it is even at a CHANNELed level, you need 5 casts to guarantee a kill. As 950 isn't channeled, this number is actually higher, and there are instances where 6 bolts don't result in a kill, but I'll concede it is effective enough to do the job if it doesn't have a cooldown.
Another option I had suggested before is a 525 storm of bolts, which would basically need to incorporate the simultaneous multi-casting and a boosted AS. One could have different flavors of elements unlocked via the same lore thresholds as 518. Being a lower level spell though, I'm not sure the mana cost would be sufficient for the parity of power I'd want, but I'm sure Dev could always find ways to compensate by allowing wizards to infuse extra mana into the power of the boost/cast based on EMC, etc.
Other options are a 940 limited duration booster (30 seconds) that would boost AS/CS and cast a slew of 6 of the same spell with no cooldown. This would be less flexible than a 950 in terms of spell usage but should still get the job done.
Basically the two components necessary are multi-cast (6 bolts) and a comparable AS/CS boost to 950 on a single target level with no cooldown. I don't care if the mana cost is 50 per creature. I just want the option for the same cast time/cast per kill parity that the other pure professions enjoy.
There are a couple that have been thrown out there. The easiest to adapt and test would be a single-target 950 that only functions with single-target spells (not mass disablers, knockdowns, cone, etc.) and that has no cooldown. The spell is already built, and it would be the easiest path to add a couple limitations with an evoke option. 950 works because, like 240, a primary component is scaling AS/CS and it involves a slew of simultaneous bolts. With bolt kill probability being what it is even at a CHANNELed level, you need 5 casts to guarantee a kill. As 950 isn't channeled, this number is actually higher, and there are instances where 6 bolts don't result in a kill, but I'll concede it is effective enough to do the job if it doesn't have a cooldown.
Another option I had suggested before is a 525 storm of bolts, which would basically need to incorporate the simultaneous multi-casting and a boosted AS. One could have different flavors of elements unlocked via the same lore thresholds as 518. Being a lower level spell though, I'm not sure the mana cost would be sufficient for the parity of power I'd want, but I'm sure Dev could always find ways to compensate by allowing wizards to infuse extra mana into the power of the boost/cast based on EMC, etc.
Other options are a 940 limited duration booster (30 seconds) that would boost AS/CS and cast a slew of 6 of the same spell with no cooldown. This would be less flexible than a 950 in terms of spell usage but should still get the job done.
Basically the two components necessary are multi-cast (6 bolts) and a comparable AS/CS boost to 950 on a single target level with no cooldown. I don't care if the mana cost is 50 per creature. I just want the option for the same cast time/cast per kill parity that the other pure professions enjoy.
DOUG
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/05/2017 06:28 PM CDT
>>Creating an analog spell to open MSTRIKE, such as single-target 950
It won't, though. You could quite nearly drain a post cap wizard of all mana and never 'guarantee' (to within some 1% likelihood) that the target will die on a single cast. I find it amusing since Immo builds, even on their best days, didn't hit 1%, but . . . here we are.
I do have to say, I'm enjoying the present well post cap capabilities of the wizard profession in the Scatter. With judicious use of Call WInd, Rapid Fire, Earthen Fury, Cold Snap, impact critical producing spells, fire critical producing spells, the occasional Mana Leech or Elemental Disjunction, even the infrequent Core Tap, yeah - it's no contest. Life as a well-post cap wizard is good. And that's just the pure wizard spell capabilities.
Doing the 'roman candle' spell on a single creature isn't my idea of wizardry. Wizards would be far more inventive and far more devastating than the wizardly equivalent of dropping a bundle of arrows and sucking really hard. Single target 950 will create more problems than it will solve because the problem is not in the number of spells cast at the creature.
Instead, I'd like to see something that includes linking to the creature's elemental attunement (remember, we all have them) and assaulting it there. Now THAT would be epic, and could lead to cool scenes of wizard duels that might remind us of the media briefing from the movie Scanners. . .
And don't forget to RPA Nominate YOUR Methais today! He needs your vote!
Doug
It won't, though. You could quite nearly drain a post cap wizard of all mana and never 'guarantee' (to within some 1% likelihood) that the target will die on a single cast. I find it amusing since Immo builds, even on their best days, didn't hit 1%, but . . . here we are.
I do have to say, I'm enjoying the present well post cap capabilities of the wizard profession in the Scatter. With judicious use of Call WInd, Rapid Fire, Earthen Fury, Cold Snap, impact critical producing spells, fire critical producing spells, the occasional Mana Leech or Elemental Disjunction, even the infrequent Core Tap, yeah - it's no contest. Life as a well-post cap wizard is good. And that's just the pure wizard spell capabilities.
Doing the 'roman candle' spell on a single creature isn't my idea of wizardry. Wizards would be far more inventive and far more devastating than the wizardly equivalent of dropping a bundle of arrows and sucking really hard. Single target 950 will create more problems than it will solve because the problem is not in the number of spells cast at the creature.
Instead, I'd like to see something that includes linking to the creature's elemental attunement (remember, we all have them) and assaulting it there. Now THAT would be epic, and could lead to cool scenes of wizard duels that might remind us of the media briefing from the movie Scanners. . .
And don't forget to RPA Nominate YOUR Methais today! He needs your vote!
Doug
LADYFLEUR
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/05/2017 06:37 PM CDT
>You could quite nearly drain a post cap wizard of all mana and never 'guarantee' (to within some 1% likelihood) that the target will die on a single cast.
That's not true with 950.
>I find it amusing since Immo builds, even on their best days, didn't hit 1%, but . . . here we are.
The combination of pre-nerf 519 and 515 with 0 CT only as band-aids to bolting delivered nearly the same result. So yes, here we are. No more band-aids and no parity.
>because the problem is not in the number of spells cast at the creature.
Actually, it is.
>Doing the 'roman candle' spell on a single creature isn't my idea of wizardry.
It is my idea, however. As it is many others. Which is why we were immolation wizards to begin with. Instant death is powerful and cool, and the holy grail for a post-cap pure in my view. It's certainly why I played a wizard to the post-cap level before all the nerfs, and it's the same ability any other post-cap profession besides monks still enjoys.
That's not true with 950.
>I find it amusing since Immo builds, even on their best days, didn't hit 1%, but . . . here we are.
The combination of pre-nerf 519 and 515 with 0 CT only as band-aids to bolting delivered nearly the same result. So yes, here we are. No more band-aids and no parity.
>because the problem is not in the number of spells cast at the creature.
Actually, it is.
>Doing the 'roman candle' spell on a single creature isn't my idea of wizardry.
It is my idea, however. As it is many others. Which is why we were immolation wizards to begin with. Instant death is powerful and cool, and the holy grail for a post-cap pure in my view. It's certainly why I played a wizard to the post-cap level before all the nerfs, and it's the same ability any other post-cap profession besides monks still enjoys.
DOUG
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/05/2017 07:47 PM CDT
>>only as band-aids
The situation is never fixed by band-aids - and in fact it will simply lead to further discussions in a decade or two. The several times in the past the GMs allowed themselves to be 'squeaky wheeled' into a middle of the road position, it just delayed what was necessary anyway, and hurt that much more.
>>Instant death is powerful and cool, and the holy grail for a post-cap pure in my view.
Yes. I acknowledge your view. I even hope you get a well-designed way to do it - be it a new non-band-aid spell or a conversion token so you can go enjoy elsewhere. Insisting on a band-aid helps, not at all. That's the anchor position, not the overachiever position. If it's worth fighting for, it's worth sticking for, and fighting for it to be done the right way - not the convenient way.
FYI - the Immo instant death didn't look like a roman candle. In fact, it was kind of boring, frankly. ;) And for more than just the fact that it was a kill / loot / move macro spell.
Come hunt the Sanctum with the crew. Good times.
Doug
The situation is never fixed by band-aids - and in fact it will simply lead to further discussions in a decade or two. The several times in the past the GMs allowed themselves to be 'squeaky wheeled' into a middle of the road position, it just delayed what was necessary anyway, and hurt that much more.
>>Instant death is powerful and cool, and the holy grail for a post-cap pure in my view.
Yes. I acknowledge your view. I even hope you get a well-designed way to do it - be it a new non-band-aid spell or a conversion token so you can go enjoy elsewhere. Insisting on a band-aid helps, not at all. That's the anchor position, not the overachiever position. If it's worth fighting for, it's worth sticking for, and fighting for it to be done the right way - not the convenient way.
FYI - the Immo instant death didn't look like a roman candle. In fact, it was kind of boring, frankly. ;) And for more than just the fact that it was a kill / loot / move macro spell.
Come hunt the Sanctum with the crew. Good times.
Doug
LADYFLEUR
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/05/2017 08:16 PM CDT
>The situation is never fixed by band-aids
>Insisting on a band-aid helps, not at all.
Um, the pre-nerf 515 and 519 were the band-aids. I'm asking for a booster fix, to achieve the same end result that every other pure profession enjoys.
>In fact, it was kind of boring, frankly.
And that's your opinion, which we all understand also. You didn't have to use it. Just like you don't have to use any potential new tools.
I don't understand spending all the energy arguing against potential positive tools though. I'm here for positive development that add options, NOT nerfs or things that force a character to take one tedious path.
I don't find aspiring to underachieve to be my idea of fun, but neither did I argue against war mages getting their improvements. If we can grant the mutant build the tools to make their preferred combat style fun though, there should be no reason that the same tools that post-cap pure wizards enjoyed should be denied, even if it's at a higher mana cost.
>Insisting on a band-aid helps, not at all.
Um, the pre-nerf 515 and 519 were the band-aids. I'm asking for a booster fix, to achieve the same end result that every other pure profession enjoys.
>In fact, it was kind of boring, frankly.
And that's your opinion, which we all understand also. You didn't have to use it. Just like you don't have to use any potential new tools.
I don't understand spending all the energy arguing against potential positive tools though. I'm here for positive development that add options, NOT nerfs or things that force a character to take one tedious path.
I don't find aspiring to underachieve to be my idea of fun, but neither did I argue against war mages getting their improvements. If we can grant the mutant build the tools to make their preferred combat style fun though, there should be no reason that the same tools that post-cap pure wizards enjoyed should be denied, even if it's at a higher mana cost.
TRIPLEGAME226
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/06/2017 10:53 AM CDT
>If your post is you casting a vote to make bolt spells CS based, it would have been easier, and more effective, to simply say that.
My post was to point out the incredible inaccuracy of the claim being made.
>It won't, though. You could quite nearly drain a post cap wizard of all mana and never 'guarantee' (to within some 1% likelihood) that the target will die on a single cast.
It's pretty rare that I have to cast 950 more than once to make everything dead. And usually when that does happen, it's usually due to the target winning the RNG lottery with a bunch (like a lot, to where these critters should be in a casino instead of running around trying to eat people) of consecutive EBP happening.
>I find it amusing since Immo builds, even on their best days, didn't hit 1%
And yet it still got treated by dev as if all you had to do was prep the spell and everything in the room died instantly. gg
>Doing the 'roman candle' spell on a single creature isn't my idea of wizardry.
Your primary form of attack is shooting a bow. How wizardly do you consider that?
>Wizards would be far more inventive and far more devastating than the wizardly equivalent of dropping a bundle of arrows and sucking really hard.
Well...this is ironic. :P
>The situation is never fixed by band-aids - and in fact it will simply lead to further discussions in a decade or two.
Yeah well...unfortunately out of all the dev that took place over the past couple years, the underlying issues with bolting were largely ignored while the band-aids we did have in place for them were taken away. The last thing we were really told by Estild that he wanted some "quick win" ideas, which he then eventually clarified as meaning he just meant small quality of life improvements, like bards being able to wear their sonic shields (that is one of the actual examples Estild gave me) as opposed to something like a single target 950, which he does not consider a quick win.
>The several times in the past the GMs allowed themselves to be 'squeaky wheeled' into a middle of the road position, it just delayed what was necessary anyway, and hurt that much more.
How can something be delayed if it's not on the table to begin with though? Pretty sure fixing bolts not being on the table was proven beyond all doubt with the ELR. Unless fixing bolts consists of "We're nerfing your other stuff now so we can shoehorn you into bolting, but we're not going to actually improve how bolting works. Have fun bolting guys, this is what we want you to do." and then calling it a day.
So here we are, asking for band-aids since it doesn't appear that a true cure is incoming for the underlying problem. I wouldn't say band-aids are my first choice, but if steak's not on the menu and probably won't be for several years if ever, I'll settle for a decent burger, as it's still better than the current burger we're eating, which is two pieces of stale bread that had the meat removed from the middle.
>Instead, I'd like to see something that includes linking to the creature's elemental attunement (remember, we all have them) and assaulting it there. Now THAT would be epic, and could lead to cool scenes of wizard duels that might remind us of the media briefing from the movie Scanners. . .
Do critters even have an elemental attunement? I've never heard of this. And even if they did, how is one supposed to tell? Especially with the current "role" mechanics, it's not even safe to assume a fire mage is attuned to fire. They could be water lore enchanters who are just protecting their secret fire mage workshop turf.
>And don't forget to RPA Nominate YOUR Methais today! He needs your vote!
Getting an RPA is as simple as just roleplaying all over the place.
>FYI - the Immo instant death didn't look like a roman candle.
It did with heavy fire lore.
>FYI - the Immo instant death didn't look like a roman candle. In fact, it was kind of boring, frankly. ;) And for more than just the fact that it was a kill / loot / move macro spell.
It's a good thing you don't have to hunt that way if you don't want to. Plenty of wizards had barrels of fun with it though, just like the other pures do with their big kill spells.
Just out of curiosity...what do you consider a fun fight to consist of vs. your average critter with your wizard? How does your typical 1v1 fight go? I'm guessing you choose to not just AIM RIGHT EYE and call it a day even though you have the capability to do so. So what do you do instead?
>I don't understand spending all the energy arguing against potential positive tools though.
It is rather mind boggling. I gave up on trying to figure it out.
~ Methais
My post was to point out the incredible inaccuracy of the claim being made.
>It won't, though. You could quite nearly drain a post cap wizard of all mana and never 'guarantee' (to within some 1% likelihood) that the target will die on a single cast.
It's pretty rare that I have to cast 950 more than once to make everything dead. And usually when that does happen, it's usually due to the target winning the RNG lottery with a bunch (like a lot, to where these critters should be in a casino instead of running around trying to eat people) of consecutive EBP happening.
>I find it amusing since Immo builds, even on their best days, didn't hit 1%
And yet it still got treated by dev as if all you had to do was prep the spell and everything in the room died instantly. gg
>Doing the 'roman candle' spell on a single creature isn't my idea of wizardry.
Your primary form of attack is shooting a bow. How wizardly do you consider that?
>Wizards would be far more inventive and far more devastating than the wizardly equivalent of dropping a bundle of arrows and sucking really hard.
Well...this is ironic. :P
>The situation is never fixed by band-aids - and in fact it will simply lead to further discussions in a decade or two.
Yeah well...unfortunately out of all the dev that took place over the past couple years, the underlying issues with bolting were largely ignored while the band-aids we did have in place for them were taken away. The last thing we were really told by Estild that he wanted some "quick win" ideas, which he then eventually clarified as meaning he just meant small quality of life improvements, like bards being able to wear their sonic shields (that is one of the actual examples Estild gave me) as opposed to something like a single target 950, which he does not consider a quick win.
>The several times in the past the GMs allowed themselves to be 'squeaky wheeled' into a middle of the road position, it just delayed what was necessary anyway, and hurt that much more.
How can something be delayed if it's not on the table to begin with though? Pretty sure fixing bolts not being on the table was proven beyond all doubt with the ELR. Unless fixing bolts consists of "We're nerfing your other stuff now so we can shoehorn you into bolting, but we're not going to actually improve how bolting works. Have fun bolting guys, this is what we want you to do." and then calling it a day.
So here we are, asking for band-aids since it doesn't appear that a true cure is incoming for the underlying problem. I wouldn't say band-aids are my first choice, but if steak's not on the menu and probably won't be for several years if ever, I'll settle for a decent burger, as it's still better than the current burger we're eating, which is two pieces of stale bread that had the meat removed from the middle.
>Instead, I'd like to see something that includes linking to the creature's elemental attunement (remember, we all have them) and assaulting it there. Now THAT would be epic, and could lead to cool scenes of wizard duels that might remind us of the media briefing from the movie Scanners. . .
Do critters even have an elemental attunement? I've never heard of this. And even if they did, how is one supposed to tell? Especially with the current "role" mechanics, it's not even safe to assume a fire mage is attuned to fire. They could be water lore enchanters who are just protecting their secret fire mage workshop turf.
>And don't forget to RPA Nominate YOUR Methais today! He needs your vote!
Getting an RPA is as simple as just roleplaying all over the place.
>FYI - the Immo instant death didn't look like a roman candle.
It did with heavy fire lore.
>FYI - the Immo instant death didn't look like a roman candle. In fact, it was kind of boring, frankly. ;) And for more than just the fact that it was a kill / loot / move macro spell.
It's a good thing you don't have to hunt that way if you don't want to. Plenty of wizards had barrels of fun with it though, just like the other pures do with their big kill spells.
Just out of curiosity...what do you consider a fun fight to consist of vs. your average critter with your wizard? How does your typical 1v1 fight go? I'm guessing you choose to not just AIM RIGHT EYE and call it a day even though you have the capability to do so. So what do you do instead?
>I don't understand spending all the energy arguing against potential positive tools though.
It is rather mind boggling. I gave up on trying to figure it out.
~ Methais
DOUG
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/06/2017 11:47 AM CDT
Thank you for the well-reasoned post, Fleur. I want to share a couple of perceptions. I hope to continue the same reasoned posting style.
Pre-nerf 515 and 519 weren't band-aids. They were exploits, just as Haste I / Haste II (and all subsequent 'war prof' build type) was. The difference between band-aid and exploit is - they weren't 'designed with the intent' to fill this gap. The 'war prof' builds were all tweaked to limit the exploitation, the war mage specifically no less than three times. None of the tweaks 'increased' the power of the build. Likewise, the Rapid Fire and Immo builds were tweaked. So far, all three have had attempts at adjusting the tweaks based on our feedback. War mages got it in early, mostly because of approach I would suggest. Rapid Fire won through when reasoned discourse began to prevail. Neither of these are nearly as 'powerful' as once they were, but they're better. The Immo build was adjusted with Earthen Fury - but the true depth of the gap isn't yet addressed.
The gap of well post cap pure killing power (or power ceiling, or any other label we put on it) is fairly well defined now, and in very large part thanks to your efforts and the efforts of several others who enjoy that build. I have the greatest respect for that, because while it doesn't affect me like it does you, it is also clearly defined and very real.
There've been several attempts at suggestions for ways to handle this. I feel as though the vast majority of these has been rejected by you. One suggestion you do support, I feel would be nothing more than a band-aid. In this case, it would be 'designed with intent', but it does nothing to address the underlying weaknesses that cause the gap to begin with, instead it tries simply to 'overpower' (or I would say 'hide') those weaknesses. I want no less than you - but I do want it to become a sustainable part of our profession.
To accomplish that, I think we need to invite and encourage dialog, amongst ourselves and with the GMs. I'm convinced that's what helped the war mage build early in the 2015 (?!?) changes, I'm pretty sure that's what helped tip over the Rapid Fire discussion - and I'm fairly sure it will help us here.
Doug
Pre-nerf 515 and 519 weren't band-aids. They were exploits, just as Haste I / Haste II (and all subsequent 'war prof' build type) was. The difference between band-aid and exploit is - they weren't 'designed with the intent' to fill this gap. The 'war prof' builds were all tweaked to limit the exploitation, the war mage specifically no less than three times. None of the tweaks 'increased' the power of the build. Likewise, the Rapid Fire and Immo builds were tweaked. So far, all three have had attempts at adjusting the tweaks based on our feedback. War mages got it in early, mostly because of approach I would suggest. Rapid Fire won through when reasoned discourse began to prevail. Neither of these are nearly as 'powerful' as once they were, but they're better. The Immo build was adjusted with Earthen Fury - but the true depth of the gap isn't yet addressed.
The gap of well post cap pure killing power (or power ceiling, or any other label we put on it) is fairly well defined now, and in very large part thanks to your efforts and the efforts of several others who enjoy that build. I have the greatest respect for that, because while it doesn't affect me like it does you, it is also clearly defined and very real.
There've been several attempts at suggestions for ways to handle this. I feel as though the vast majority of these has been rejected by you. One suggestion you do support, I feel would be nothing more than a band-aid. In this case, it would be 'designed with intent', but it does nothing to address the underlying weaknesses that cause the gap to begin with, instead it tries simply to 'overpower' (or I would say 'hide') those weaknesses. I want no less than you - but I do want it to become a sustainable part of our profession.
To accomplish that, I think we need to invite and encourage dialog, amongst ourselves and with the GMs. I'm convinced that's what helped the war mage build early in the 2015 (?!?) changes, I'm pretty sure that's what helped tip over the Rapid Fire discussion - and I'm fairly sure it will help us here.
Doug
DOUG
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/06/2017 11:49 AM CDT
>>Your primary form of attack is shooting a bow. How wizardly do you consider that?
>>>>Just out of curiosity...what do you consider a fun fight to consist of vs. your average critter with your wizard? How does your typical 1v1 fight go? I'm guessing you choose to not just AIM RIGHT EYE and call it a day even though you have the capability to do so. So what do you do instead?
I think we all suffer perception challenges. Focusing only on wizards, and even more narrowly only on the Elf for a moment, I use whatever attack works best for the situation. The game framework allows for me to portray the Elf as an archer-mage. Elves and archery I think have a long-standing precedent.
The key point is, the Elf is far enough post cap to be able to portray the best of pure wizardry, and the best of elven archery (as permitted by the profession). And the attack I choose to use with the Elf is the one that I feel best meets the situation - which may or just as frequently may not include the mystical elven bow. In all, I personally consider it very elvish, very wizardly, a good challenge and a lot of fun.
I will respect your perception that for you it isn't as much fun as your chosen course. Thanks for asking!
And most importantly. . .
>>So here we are, asking for band-aids since it doesn't appear that a true cure is incoming for the underlying problem. I wouldn't say band-aids are my first choice, but if steak's not on the menu and probably won't be for several years if ever, I'll settle for a decent burger
I understand that perspective. I, however, won't partake - and will continue to aspire to non-band-aid solutions. That's likely to create some disagreement between us, and for my part, I'm sorry in advance.
Doug
>>>>Just out of curiosity...what do you consider a fun fight to consist of vs. your average critter with your wizard? How does your typical 1v1 fight go? I'm guessing you choose to not just AIM RIGHT EYE and call it a day even though you have the capability to do so. So what do you do instead?
I think we all suffer perception challenges. Focusing only on wizards, and even more narrowly only on the Elf for a moment, I use whatever attack works best for the situation. The game framework allows for me to portray the Elf as an archer-mage. Elves and archery I think have a long-standing precedent.
The key point is, the Elf is far enough post cap to be able to portray the best of pure wizardry, and the best of elven archery (as permitted by the profession). And the attack I choose to use with the Elf is the one that I feel best meets the situation - which may or just as frequently may not include the mystical elven bow. In all, I personally consider it very elvish, very wizardly, a good challenge and a lot of fun.
I will respect your perception that for you it isn't as much fun as your chosen course. Thanks for asking!
And most importantly. . .
>>So here we are, asking for band-aids since it doesn't appear that a true cure is incoming for the underlying problem. I wouldn't say band-aids are my first choice, but if steak's not on the menu and probably won't be for several years if ever, I'll settle for a decent burger
I understand that perspective. I, however, won't partake - and will continue to aspire to non-band-aid solutions. That's likely to create some disagreement between us, and for my part, I'm sorry in advance.
Doug
LADYFLEUR
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/06/2017 12:17 PM CDT
>Pre-nerf 515 and 519 weren't band-aids. They were exploits, just as Haste I / Haste II (and all subsequent 'war prof' build type) was. The difference between band-aid and exploit is - they weren't 'designed with the intent' to fill this gap.
I disagree that they were exploits. By using the term "exploit", it insinuates a sinister motive behind player actions, when actually we were playing within the framework approved for the game at the time. Everything is intended, until it isn't. The same applies to Haste I / Haste II, which we've now reverted to, by the way, with the split of Haste into Celerity (506) and Haste (535).
>The 'war prof' builds were all tweaked to limit the exploitation, the war mage specifically no less than three times. None of the tweaks 'increased' the power of the build.
I have to thoroughly disagree here. ALL of the ELR changes and wizard "updates" since the nerfs were to benefit war mages and vastly increased the power of the build. The changes allowed war mages to be the one wizard build, ironically the mutant one, to have their cake and eat it too. War mages can now enjoy all the benefits of their speedy physical combat with none of the tradeoffs previously experienced with a physical AS penalty for using 513. 902 for free enhancive boosts, 411 with attuned crit weighting - these are all purely physical attack benefits.
>The Immo build was adjusted with Earthen Fury - but the true depth of the gap isn't yet addressed.
I don't consider a DoT spell of any kind to be the solution to the post-cap, single target instant kill. So I agree, the gap isn't yet addressed.
>The gap of well post cap pure killing power (or power ceiling, or any other label we put on it) is fairly well defined now
Thanks for acknowledging this.
>I feel as though the vast majority of these has been rejected by you.
That's because most of the solutions put forth didn't address the issues with bolts at the post-cap level.
>One suggestion you do support, I feel would be nothing more than a band-aid. In this case, it would be 'designed with intent', but it does nothing to address the underlying weaknesses that cause the gap to begin with, instead it tries simply to 'overpower' (or I would say 'hide') those weaknesses.
I disagree that it's a band-aid. Both the warding and bolting system have their own strengths and weaknesses at the pre-cap level and are balanced, so this is the part you still don't seem to understand. It's much more difficult for the pre-cap, mana constrained pures to summon additional CS whether via 240 or maximized spell ranks to achieve the same kind of power they can attain post-cap. If a pre-cap spiritual pure cannot ward a creature, it's going to deal zero damage. It's much easier for a pre-cap character to acquire access to bolt AS boosters (211, 513, blue crystals) to overcome this, in addition to having access to wizard wands. So leveling with CS-based spells is more difficult, but the ceiling is capped much higher post-cap.
At the same time, while it's easier for a wizard to natively level with bolts, they will never have the same access to the level of effective CS-based spells that the spiritual pures do at a post-cap level. Spiritual CS imbeds are a non-factor, because without native spell ranks, an outsider would never be able to summon sufficient CS to make use of such a spell. This brings the disparity to the post-cap level. Post-cap, spiritual pures have all of their hard-earned, CS-based offensive lethality while still enjoying the option to use wizard wands to their full power in group settings. Post-cap, wizards are left with only one side of the toolbox at hand, since our one effective CS-based spell has been severely handicapped to such a level that it is barely comparable with baseline 317/1115 even with 1x lore, which is the correct way to interpret the data that Dev has presented to us.
The underlying weakness only occurs in the post-cap disparity. There is no need to break the entire system to attempt to address the one area with quantified, proven weakness and disparity. Every other pure profession has a targeted way to address this for the warding system, and it doesn't include an overhaul of the entire warding system to achieve it. The solution YOU suggest, in trying to apply the problem to everyone equally, without acknowledging the other pros and cons of both systems, is what would be the band-aid and would break more things to solve one targeted problem. Just because a problem is not universal does not mean it does not exist for a set of post-cap pure wizards. Just because a problem applies to post-cap pure wizards does not mean it applies to every wizard, pre-cap and post-, without reservation. To suggest otherwise is a logical fallacy.
I disagree that they were exploits. By using the term "exploit", it insinuates a sinister motive behind player actions, when actually we were playing within the framework approved for the game at the time. Everything is intended, until it isn't. The same applies to Haste I / Haste II, which we've now reverted to, by the way, with the split of Haste into Celerity (506) and Haste (535).
>The 'war prof' builds were all tweaked to limit the exploitation, the war mage specifically no less than three times. None of the tweaks 'increased' the power of the build.
I have to thoroughly disagree here. ALL of the ELR changes and wizard "updates" since the nerfs were to benefit war mages and vastly increased the power of the build. The changes allowed war mages to be the one wizard build, ironically the mutant one, to have their cake and eat it too. War mages can now enjoy all the benefits of their speedy physical combat with none of the tradeoffs previously experienced with a physical AS penalty for using 513. 902 for free enhancive boosts, 411 with attuned crit weighting - these are all purely physical attack benefits.
>The Immo build was adjusted with Earthen Fury - but the true depth of the gap isn't yet addressed.
I don't consider a DoT spell of any kind to be the solution to the post-cap, single target instant kill. So I agree, the gap isn't yet addressed.
>The gap of well post cap pure killing power (or power ceiling, or any other label we put on it) is fairly well defined now
Thanks for acknowledging this.
>I feel as though the vast majority of these has been rejected by you.
That's because most of the solutions put forth didn't address the issues with bolts at the post-cap level.
>One suggestion you do support, I feel would be nothing more than a band-aid. In this case, it would be 'designed with intent', but it does nothing to address the underlying weaknesses that cause the gap to begin with, instead it tries simply to 'overpower' (or I would say 'hide') those weaknesses.
I disagree that it's a band-aid. Both the warding and bolting system have their own strengths and weaknesses at the pre-cap level and are balanced, so this is the part you still don't seem to understand. It's much more difficult for the pre-cap, mana constrained pures to summon additional CS whether via 240 or maximized spell ranks to achieve the same kind of power they can attain post-cap. If a pre-cap spiritual pure cannot ward a creature, it's going to deal zero damage. It's much easier for a pre-cap character to acquire access to bolt AS boosters (211, 513, blue crystals) to overcome this, in addition to having access to wizard wands. So leveling with CS-based spells is more difficult, but the ceiling is capped much higher post-cap.
At the same time, while it's easier for a wizard to natively level with bolts, they will never have the same access to the level of effective CS-based spells that the spiritual pures do at a post-cap level. Spiritual CS imbeds are a non-factor, because without native spell ranks, an outsider would never be able to summon sufficient CS to make use of such a spell. This brings the disparity to the post-cap level. Post-cap, spiritual pures have all of their hard-earned, CS-based offensive lethality while still enjoying the option to use wizard wands to their full power in group settings. Post-cap, wizards are left with only one side of the toolbox at hand, since our one effective CS-based spell has been severely handicapped to such a level that it is barely comparable with baseline 317/1115 even with 1x lore, which is the correct way to interpret the data that Dev has presented to us.
The underlying weakness only occurs in the post-cap disparity. There is no need to break the entire system to attempt to address the one area with quantified, proven weakness and disparity. Every other pure profession has a targeted way to address this for the warding system, and it doesn't include an overhaul of the entire warding system to achieve it. The solution YOU suggest, in trying to apply the problem to everyone equally, without acknowledging the other pros and cons of both systems, is what would be the band-aid and would break more things to solve one targeted problem. Just because a problem is not universal does not mean it does not exist for a set of post-cap pure wizards. Just because a problem applies to post-cap pure wizards does not mean it applies to every wizard, pre-cap and post-, without reservation. To suggest otherwise is a logical fallacy.
LADYFLEUR
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/06/2017 12:27 PM CDT
>I use whatever attack works best for the situation. The game framework allows for me to portray the Elf as an archer-mage. Elves and archery I think have a long-standing precedent.
>The key point is, the Elf is far enough post cap to be able to portray the best of pure wizardry, and the best of elven archery (as permitted by the profession). And the attack I choose to use with the Elf is the one that I feel best meets the situation - which may or just as frequently may not include the mystical elven bow. In all, I personally consider it very elvish, very wizardly, a good challenge and a lot of fun.
The difference here is you seem to suggest only you have the right to say what is the acceptable chosen course, which is to use all forms available to you. Yet you refuse to acknowledge that certain post-cap pure wizards, who don't believe that the war mage build is "wizardly" by our definitions (and Estild's posted definition of a wizard), deserve to have the same level of tools available to other post-cap pures to make choices.
Your definition of "the best of pure wizardry" is purely subjective and negates all the post-cap wizards who enjoyed the actual "best of pure wizardry" offered before the nerfs, because you didn't even use those tools to begin with. Which is your choice and perfectly fine, until you try to rail against other people having those tools.
Every player's definition of fun is different, and the whole situation would be a lot more productive and less like Groundhog Day if instead of coming in to tell people that what they're trying to advocate for, more positive tools, is going to harm your enjoyment, you ignored it because you wouldn't even need to use those tools if you didn't so choose. To try to forcibly limit players from taking one path, available to all other pures, is both design without regard for precedent and poor treatment of other paying customers who also pay for and enjoy the game in different ways that would have no effect on your own enjoyment.
>The key point is, the Elf is far enough post cap to be able to portray the best of pure wizardry, and the best of elven archery (as permitted by the profession). And the attack I choose to use with the Elf is the one that I feel best meets the situation - which may or just as frequently may not include the mystical elven bow. In all, I personally consider it very elvish, very wizardly, a good challenge and a lot of fun.
The difference here is you seem to suggest only you have the right to say what is the acceptable chosen course, which is to use all forms available to you. Yet you refuse to acknowledge that certain post-cap pure wizards, who don't believe that the war mage build is "wizardly" by our definitions (and Estild's posted definition of a wizard), deserve to have the same level of tools available to other post-cap pures to make choices.
Your definition of "the best of pure wizardry" is purely subjective and negates all the post-cap wizards who enjoyed the actual "best of pure wizardry" offered before the nerfs, because you didn't even use those tools to begin with. Which is your choice and perfectly fine, until you try to rail against other people having those tools.
Every player's definition of fun is different, and the whole situation would be a lot more productive and less like Groundhog Day if instead of coming in to tell people that what they're trying to advocate for, more positive tools, is going to harm your enjoyment, you ignored it because you wouldn't even need to use those tools if you didn't so choose. To try to forcibly limit players from taking one path, available to all other pures, is both design without regard for precedent and poor treatment of other paying customers who also pay for and enjoy the game in different ways that would have no effect on your own enjoyment.
TRIPLEGAME226
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/06/2017 12:35 PM CDT
>There've been several attempts at suggestions for ways to handle this. I feel as though the vast majority of these has been rejected by you. One suggestion you do support, I feel would be nothing more than a band-aid. In this case, it would be 'designed with intent', but it does nothing to address the underlying weaknesses that cause the gap to begin with, instead it tries simply to 'overpower' (or I would say 'hide') those weaknesses. I want no less than you - but I do want it to become a sustainable part of our profession.
One thing to consider though, especially when operating under Simu timelines, is that sometimes it's better to just patch that hole in the wall as opposed to rebuilding the entire wall.
Ideally, you would patch the hole in the wall as a short term fix, so that you don't have to live with a hole in your wall, and then when you eventually get around to rebuilding the wall, the patch is no longer needed.
Right now we have a big hole in the wall after the patch that was there was punched out, no replacement patch, and what seems to be no plans to rebuild the wall either.
Proactive response to your possible response: You refer to old 519/515 as exploits instead of band-aids. Even if that is/was the case, they still served a "band-aid" like purpose by "exploiting" them to fill in a gap, which is probably why they were left alone for so long, even while Haste II was being gutted and Haste in general was set to 1 RT minimum while Rapid Fire was left at 0 for over a decade.
>To accomplish that, I think we need to invite and encourage dialog, amongst ourselves and with the GMs. I'm convinced that's what helped the war mage build early in the 2015 (?!?) changes, I'm pretty sure that's what helped tip over the Rapid Fire discussion - and I'm fairly sure it will help us here.
I mean...it's been going on for almost 2 years now and despite probable claims, most of it hasn't been people raging and foaming at the mouth. Most of it has just been the same stuff being repeated over and over because as soon as it gets done being explained in great detail, 2 days later it's "hey guys what's wrong with wizards I'm level 37 and I do fine u guys suk" (hyperbole) all over again and the cycle repeats.
I think there have been a plethora (More info on plethoras can be found here: http://www.learningfromlyrics.org/guapo3B%5B1%5D.jpg) of well thought out reasonable ideas that would alleviate our post-nerf problems without requiring a gigantic system rewrite that I'm pretty sure nobody at Simu wants to do in the first place.
TLDR: If we build the wall we can make wizards great again. And stuff.
~ Methais
One thing to consider though, especially when operating under Simu timelines, is that sometimes it's better to just patch that hole in the wall as opposed to rebuilding the entire wall.
Ideally, you would patch the hole in the wall as a short term fix, so that you don't have to live with a hole in your wall, and then when you eventually get around to rebuilding the wall, the patch is no longer needed.
Right now we have a big hole in the wall after the patch that was there was punched out, no replacement patch, and what seems to be no plans to rebuild the wall either.
Proactive response to your possible response: You refer to old 519/515 as exploits instead of band-aids. Even if that is/was the case, they still served a "band-aid" like purpose by "exploiting" them to fill in a gap, which is probably why they were left alone for so long, even while Haste II was being gutted and Haste in general was set to 1 RT minimum while Rapid Fire was left at 0 for over a decade.
>To accomplish that, I think we need to invite and encourage dialog, amongst ourselves and with the GMs. I'm convinced that's what helped the war mage build early in the 2015 (?!?) changes, I'm pretty sure that's what helped tip over the Rapid Fire discussion - and I'm fairly sure it will help us here.
I mean...it's been going on for almost 2 years now and despite probable claims, most of it hasn't been people raging and foaming at the mouth. Most of it has just been the same stuff being repeated over and over because as soon as it gets done being explained in great detail, 2 days later it's "hey guys what's wrong with wizards I'm level 37 and I do fine u guys suk" (hyperbole) all over again and the cycle repeats.
I think there have been a plethora (More info on plethoras can be found here: http://www.learningfromlyrics.org/guapo3B%5B1%5D.jpg) of well thought out reasonable ideas that would alleviate our post-nerf problems without requiring a gigantic system rewrite that I'm pretty sure nobody at Simu wants to do in the first place.
TLDR: If we build the wall we can make wizards great again. And stuff.
~ Methais
LADYFLEUR
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/06/2017 12:46 PM CDT
>"Excellent at acquiring knowledge of magical lore and magical devices, Wizards are among the poorest in the use of weapons and gain skill at arms only at great expense."
I'll go so far as to say that under GM Estild's posted definition of a wizard, currently the wizard profession is flip-flopped in priority with respect to pure wizard and war mage development at the post-cap level.
>Excellent at acquiring knowledge of magical lore and magical devices
With a 4-way lore split vs. a sorcerer's 2-way split and a cleric/empath's 3-way split, wizards are by far the worst of the pures at acquiring knowledge of magical lore or attaining similar levels of results at the same thresholds as other pures. Wizards can't possibly be excellent, if no other profession is worse, in terms of lore effectiveness for the rank thresholds achieved.
>Wizards are among the poorest in the use of weapons and gain skill at arms only at great expense.
Wizards are ironically the best at the use of weapons among the pures, and war mages now get to have their cake and eat it too.
This is all great, but it's not what I as a player of a post-cap pure wizard enjoyed about wizardry, nor is it why I played a post-cap wizard pre-nerfs. I enjoyed playing a post-cap wizard pre-nerf because of the post-cap, single target, effectively instant kill result enjoyed by every other post-cap pure as the holy grail of magical prowess. I want to be Gandalf coming in to mow individual creatures down, not just wondering whether it's within my cooldown window or I should go turtle up and hide. The current design path is inconsistent with the objectives and definition of a wizard laid out in Estild's statement above.
I'll go so far as to say that under GM Estild's posted definition of a wizard, currently the wizard profession is flip-flopped in priority with respect to pure wizard and war mage development at the post-cap level.
>Excellent at acquiring knowledge of magical lore and magical devices
With a 4-way lore split vs. a sorcerer's 2-way split and a cleric/empath's 3-way split, wizards are by far the worst of the pures at acquiring knowledge of magical lore or attaining similar levels of results at the same thresholds as other pures. Wizards can't possibly be excellent, if no other profession is worse, in terms of lore effectiveness for the rank thresholds achieved.
>Wizards are among the poorest in the use of weapons and gain skill at arms only at great expense.
Wizards are ironically the best at the use of weapons among the pures, and war mages now get to have their cake and eat it too.
This is all great, but it's not what I as a player of a post-cap pure wizard enjoyed about wizardry, nor is it why I played a post-cap wizard pre-nerfs. I enjoyed playing a post-cap wizard pre-nerf because of the post-cap, single target, effectively instant kill result enjoyed by every other post-cap pure as the holy grail of magical prowess. I want to be Gandalf coming in to mow individual creatures down, not just wondering whether it's within my cooldown window or I should go turtle up and hide. The current design path is inconsistent with the objectives and definition of a wizard laid out in Estild's statement above.
DOUG
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/06/2017 01:06 PM CDT
Two quick corrections:
>>it insinuates a sinister motive behind player actions
That wasn't my intent - thanks for calling that out. By exploit, I simply intended to convey that it was not intended by the design of the spell / game's framework. It took all the way to 2005, and well post cap (defined even more broadly than the narrow discussion we used earlier) to even begin to realize that this could occur. (Thanks, O'Methais!) It didn't become a 'mainstream' wizard training choice until 2007 or later. Rapid Fire came even a bit later. The reason they came later was simple - wizards had to work damned hard to get there, and there were few wizards at the time actively portrayed that were in that position in their training / experience.
To be fair - it's not clear to me that the 240 / 1115, or 1117 / 111 or etc., etc., were ever intended to be as powerful as they are, either. Time will tell depending on what course corrections are applied. But I am honoring the covenant not to suggest weakening another profession's abilities. I think we're all better for that suggestion - so again, thank you.
>>The solution YOU suggest
I feel I've made several - and I know others have made even more some of which I like, and have supported / suggested minor changes to. To which are you referring?
And one acknowledgement:
>>ALL of the ELR changes and wizard "updates" since the nerfs were to benefit war mages and vastly increased the power of the build.
While I don't agree that all of the ELR changes and wizard updates were made with the war-mage in mind and I'm quite sure you didn't mean it, I do acknowledge that the addition of Elemental Blade did have some basic utility for all wizards early on, and war mages before starting the second third of the game, and that 902 with the EVOKE version did in fact improve the war-mage build. 902 was an interesting change, because it also helped wizards overall in the 'cheaty-face' type approach to the game, and then did help modestly anyone who wanted to pursue that line of the profession long term. At well post cap, the best benefit it provides is some relief in the upkeep / maintenance of enhancives.
I would advocate for like spells (or same spells when cast on runestaves) for pure mages, as well - perhaps based on acuity or mana flare, or even lore +10 skill? Not sure how best to position it. But I am sure that this context specifically doesn't solve the well post cap power ceiling discussion. So we still have that to solve for.
Doug
>>it insinuates a sinister motive behind player actions
That wasn't my intent - thanks for calling that out. By exploit, I simply intended to convey that it was not intended by the design of the spell / game's framework. It took all the way to 2005, and well post cap (defined even more broadly than the narrow discussion we used earlier) to even begin to realize that this could occur. (Thanks, O'Methais!) It didn't become a 'mainstream' wizard training choice until 2007 or later. Rapid Fire came even a bit later. The reason they came later was simple - wizards had to work damned hard to get there, and there were few wizards at the time actively portrayed that were in that position in their training / experience.
To be fair - it's not clear to me that the 240 / 1115, or 1117 / 111 or etc., etc., were ever intended to be as powerful as they are, either. Time will tell depending on what course corrections are applied. But I am honoring the covenant not to suggest weakening another profession's abilities. I think we're all better for that suggestion - so again, thank you.
>>The solution YOU suggest
I feel I've made several - and I know others have made even more some of which I like, and have supported / suggested minor changes to. To which are you referring?
And one acknowledgement:
>>ALL of the ELR changes and wizard "updates" since the nerfs were to benefit war mages and vastly increased the power of the build.
While I don't agree that all of the ELR changes and wizard updates were made with the war-mage in mind and I'm quite sure you didn't mean it, I do acknowledge that the addition of Elemental Blade did have some basic utility for all wizards early on, and war mages before starting the second third of the game, and that 902 with the EVOKE version did in fact improve the war-mage build. 902 was an interesting change, because it also helped wizards overall in the 'cheaty-face' type approach to the game, and then did help modestly anyone who wanted to pursue that line of the profession long term. At well post cap, the best benefit it provides is some relief in the upkeep / maintenance of enhancives.
I would advocate for like spells (or same spells when cast on runestaves) for pure mages, as well - perhaps based on acuity or mana flare, or even lore +10 skill? Not sure how best to position it. But I am sure that this context specifically doesn't solve the well post cap power ceiling discussion. So we still have that to solve for.
Doug
DOUG
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/06/2017 01:33 PM CDT
While the hyperbole, jealousy and AFE run their course, let's tackle some of yours, Methais!
>>One thing to consider though, especially when operating under Simu timelines, is that sometimes it's better to just patch that hole in the wall as opposed to rebuilding the entire wall.
An apt metaphor. Extending it a bit - if one sees only the hole, and misses (or worse, chooses to ignore) the termites, the hole never stays patched. Said differently, sometimes it isn't better. Is this one of those cases? We disagree - but that's ok!
>>Proactive response to your possible response
Sorry to disappoint. I would try to provide some response, but I honestly don't get what you're driving towards.
>>TLDR: If we build the wall we can make wizards great again. And stuff.
Heh. Nice!
Doug
>>One thing to consider though, especially when operating under Simu timelines, is that sometimes it's better to just patch that hole in the wall as opposed to rebuilding the entire wall.
An apt metaphor. Extending it a bit - if one sees only the hole, and misses (or worse, chooses to ignore) the termites, the hole never stays patched. Said differently, sometimes it isn't better. Is this one of those cases? We disagree - but that's ok!
>>Proactive response to your possible response
Sorry to disappoint. I would try to provide some response, but I honestly don't get what you're driving towards.
>>TLDR: If we build the wall we can make wizards great again. And stuff.
Heh. Nice!
Doug
TRIPLEGAME226
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/06/2017 02:25 PM CDT
>That wasn't my intent - thanks for calling that out. By exploit, I simply intended to convey that it was not intended by the design of the spell / game's framework. It took all the way to 2005, and well post cap (defined even more broadly than the narrow discussion we used earlier) to even begin to realize that this could occur. (Thanks, O'Methais!) It didn't become a 'mainstream' wizard training choice until 2007 or later. Rapid Fire came even a bit later. The reason they came later was simple - wizards had to work damned hard to get there, and there were few wizards at the time actively portrayed that were in that position in their training / experience.
The actual reason I tried out an Immo build (not having the first clue how awesome it was at the time) was because bolts seriously weren't getting the job done anymore. I had no grand plans other than to try something else besides bolting since bolting was accomplishing nothing, and Immolate was the only direct damage warding spell we had at the time, not counting 409/415. 915 might have been out, but I don't really even acknowledge 915's existence it's so bad, and it's only good for one cast anyway so it still wouldn't apply even if it wasn't a steaming pile.
And Immolate was complete garbage without lore too. So I was like ok let's see what happens if I go all in on fire lore with Immolate. And the rest is history.
Make no mistake though. It was bolts being garbage that prompted me to explore other builds in the first place, and that was literally the only reason.
~ Methais
The actual reason I tried out an Immo build (not having the first clue how awesome it was at the time) was because bolts seriously weren't getting the job done anymore. I had no grand plans other than to try something else besides bolting since bolting was accomplishing nothing, and Immolate was the only direct damage warding spell we had at the time, not counting 409/415. 915 might have been out, but I don't really even acknowledge 915's existence it's so bad, and it's only good for one cast anyway so it still wouldn't apply even if it wasn't a steaming pile.
And Immolate was complete garbage without lore too. So I was like ok let's see what happens if I go all in on fire lore with Immolate. And the rest is history.
Make no mistake though. It was bolts being garbage that prompted me to explore other builds in the first place, and that was literally the only reason.
~ Methais
TRIPLEGAME226
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/06/2017 02:32 PM CDT
>An apt metaphor. Extending it a bit - if one sees only the hole, and misses (or worse, chooses to ignore) the termites, the hole never stays patched. Said differently, sometimes it isn't better. Is this one of those cases? We disagree - but that's ok!
Except it wasn't termites. Someone dressed in all red just walked up, punched a big hole in the wall, and then left.
>While the hyperbole, jealousy and AFE run their course, let's tackle some of yours, Methais!
Most of your snipes really make no sense. If there's any jealousy happening, it's being jealous of what wizards used to be before January 15, 2016.
>Sorry to disappoint. I would try to provide some response, but I honestly don't get what you're driving towards.
That was just in case your response was gonna be, "But it's not a band-aid I said it's an exploit!" :|
~ Methais
Except it wasn't termites. Someone dressed in all red just walked up, punched a big hole in the wall, and then left.
>While the hyperbole, jealousy and AFE run their course, let's tackle some of yours, Methais!
Most of your snipes really make no sense. If there's any jealousy happening, it's being jealous of what wizards used to be before January 15, 2016.
>Sorry to disappoint. I would try to provide some response, but I honestly don't get what you're driving towards.
That was just in case your response was gonna be, "But it's not a band-aid I said it's an exploit!" :|
~ Methais
DOUG
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/06/2017 02:37 PM CDT
>>Most of your snipes really make no sense.
It wasn't a snipe. It was a simple statement of fact. That might be why it's so confusing to you. :| If it helps, though - it's not you.
>>Someone dressed in all red just walked up, punched a big hole in the wall, and then left.
yep, looking for termites. ;P Found some, too, and made some structural improvements. But, yes - the hole is still there.
Doug
It wasn't a snipe. It was a simple statement of fact. That might be why it's so confusing to you. :| If it helps, though - it's not you.
>>Someone dressed in all red just walked up, punched a big hole in the wall, and then left.
yep, looking for termites. ;P Found some, too, and made some structural improvements. But, yes - the hole is still there.
Doug
TRIPLEGAME226
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/07/2017 01:40 PM CDT
>It wasn't a snipe. It was a simple statement of fact. That might be why it's so confusing to you. :| If it helps, though - it's not you.
Sure if you say so. Not wasting anymore time on this nonsense when I could be wasting my time on other nonsense like...
>yep, looking for termites. ;P Found some, too, and made some structural improvements. But, yes - the hole is still there.
Red just arrived.
Red says, "Looks like you have termites. I understand that you've found your own way to deal with them and it's been working fine for you for over a decade. I'm here to tell you that all ends today even though you never actually put in a service call for this. Don't worry though. This is a good thing, because now we can develop new and better things, which may or may not happen at some point in the future."
You say, "But..."
Red punches a hole in the wall.
Red says, "See ya later."
Red just left.
A year later...
Red just arrived.
Red says, "Hey man, I brought you something to help with those termites that have been crawling out of the hole I put in your wall and made your termite problem worse with. What? No I'm not going to rebuild your wall, are you nuts? You asked for this hole 15 years ago."
You say, "No I didn't."
Red says, "Well it wasn't actually you who asked for it, it was the person who lived here before you. They moved away a long time ago. I hear that they're living in a mental institution now."
Red offers you a can of wasp spray.
You accept Red's can of wasp spray.
You say, "This works great on wasps."
Red says, "Glad I could help fix your house!"
You say, "But it only works against wasps."
Red says, "I also upgraded your home security system."
You say, "Well that's pretty cool and I really appreciate that. Unfortunately though, I still have that big hole you put in my wall, and termites everywhere. Can you at least patch the hole you put in the wall for now until a more permanent solution can be worked? I mean my house wasn't perfect before by any means, but it was still in much better shape before you put this big hole in the wall. Now it's just a disaster and living here isn't nearly as nice as it used to be."
Red says, "No. But something I could do would be to put some WD-40 on that creaky door down the hallway. It won't address the termite problem, but at least you won't have to listen to that door anymore when it opens and closes. Quick fixes like that are what we want now."
You say, "This doesn't make sense."
Red says, "You can also paint your house different colors now too, but it requires a primer made with ultra rare ingredients from another planet."
You ask, "What are we going to do about the termites though?"
Red says, "See ya later!"
Red just left.
You say, "I should have gotten an apartment."
On topic: Attune should grant phantom lore ranks and we should be able to switch 502's element at will.
~ Methais
Sure if you say so. Not wasting anymore time on this nonsense when I could be wasting my time on other nonsense like...
>yep, looking for termites. ;P Found some, too, and made some structural improvements. But, yes - the hole is still there.
Red just arrived.
Red says, "Looks like you have termites. I understand that you've found your own way to deal with them and it's been working fine for you for over a decade. I'm here to tell you that all ends today even though you never actually put in a service call for this. Don't worry though. This is a good thing, because now we can develop new and better things, which may or may not happen at some point in the future."
You say, "But..."
Red punches a hole in the wall.
Red says, "See ya later."
Red just left.
A year later...
Red just arrived.
Red says, "Hey man, I brought you something to help with those termites that have been crawling out of the hole I put in your wall and made your termite problem worse with. What? No I'm not going to rebuild your wall, are you nuts? You asked for this hole 15 years ago."
You say, "No I didn't."
Red says, "Well it wasn't actually you who asked for it, it was the person who lived here before you. They moved away a long time ago. I hear that they're living in a mental institution now."
Red offers you a can of wasp spray.
You accept Red's can of wasp spray.
You say, "This works great on wasps."
Red says, "Glad I could help fix your house!"
You say, "But it only works against wasps."
Red says, "I also upgraded your home security system."
You say, "Well that's pretty cool and I really appreciate that. Unfortunately though, I still have that big hole you put in my wall, and termites everywhere. Can you at least patch the hole you put in the wall for now until a more permanent solution can be worked? I mean my house wasn't perfect before by any means, but it was still in much better shape before you put this big hole in the wall. Now it's just a disaster and living here isn't nearly as nice as it used to be."
Red says, "No. But something I could do would be to put some WD-40 on that creaky door down the hallway. It won't address the termite problem, but at least you won't have to listen to that door anymore when it opens and closes. Quick fixes like that are what we want now."
You say, "This doesn't make sense."
Red says, "You can also paint your house different colors now too, but it requires a primer made with ultra rare ingredients from another planet."
You ask, "What are we going to do about the termites though?"
Red says, "See ya later!"
Red just left.
You say, "I should have gotten an apartment."
On topic: Attune should grant phantom lore ranks and we should be able to switch 502's element at will.
~ Methais
PEREGRINEFALCON
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/07/2017 05:01 PM CDT
Back from our St. Louis trip and they definitely have the best BBQ of anywhere I have been to date (I personally recommend Sugarfire Smokehouse BBQ).
Catching up on the forums but don't think I'm going to get involved in the current wizard debates. One quick note from my review:
>> LADYFLEUR
>> There is no enchant bonus for using a familiar. There is a penalty for not having the familiar with you when you enchant if you have one summoned.
>> CURTIS
>> Hmm... if that's true, the wiki is wrong. But either way, 920 is a cool spell that I've certainly found useful.
>> GS4-ESTILD
>> The wiki is exactly correct in regard to the bonus and penalty for familiars.
NAOS 01/03/2011
If you do not have a familiar summoned, there is no bonus or penalty to Enchanting success. Having a familiar summoned and in the same room as your character contributes a bonus to Enchanting success. Having a familiar summoned but in a different room than your character contributes a penalty to Enchanting success.
-- Robert
Catching up on the forums but don't think I'm going to get involved in the current wizard debates. One quick note from my review:
>> LADYFLEUR
>> There is no enchant bonus for using a familiar. There is a penalty for not having the familiar with you when you enchant if you have one summoned.
>> CURTIS
>> Hmm... if that's true, the wiki is wrong. But either way, 920 is a cool spell that I've certainly found useful.
>> GS4-ESTILD
>> The wiki is exactly correct in regard to the bonus and penalty for familiars.
NAOS 01/03/2011
If you do not have a familiar summoned, there is no bonus or penalty to Enchanting success. Having a familiar summoned and in the same room as your character contributes a bonus to Enchanting success. Having a familiar summoned but in a different room than your character contributes a penalty to Enchanting success.
-- Robert
DRUMPEL
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/08/2017 07:27 AM CDT
>Catching up on the forums but don't think I'm going to get involved in the current wizard debates.
But....but....it's the same argument that's been going on for the past couple of years now. You get a small group saying there is no problem and blah, blah, blah and you get the small group saying there is a problem and blah, blah, blah.
It reminds me of going to the wife's side of the family for holidays and listening to all of them having the same conversations every single time they get together. Talk about the odd foods they've ate in the past with their parents (wife's mom's side is Armanian - they have some odd foods if you ask me), how most of them are trying to remember how to say grace in Armenian before dinner (they have cheat sheets that they always seem to forget and only one can say grace from memory, the other few that remember parts sound like this when trying to say it: https://youtu.be/iDt1VLn58e8?t=85 ).
While I can find some posts infuriating to read or some posts that just seem to disagree just to disagree, this is my entertainment on some days at work. So, help fuel the fire here and keep me entertained!
-Drumpel
But....but....it's the same argument that's been going on for the past couple of years now. You get a small group saying there is no problem and blah, blah, blah and you get the small group saying there is a problem and blah, blah, blah.
It reminds me of going to the wife's side of the family for holidays and listening to all of them having the same conversations every single time they get together. Talk about the odd foods they've ate in the past with their parents (wife's mom's side is Armanian - they have some odd foods if you ask me), how most of them are trying to remember how to say grace in Armenian before dinner (they have cheat sheets that they always seem to forget and only one can say grace from memory, the other few that remember parts sound like this when trying to say it: https://youtu.be/iDt1VLn58e8?t=85 ).
While I can find some posts infuriating to read or some posts that just seem to disagree just to disagree, this is my entertainment on some days at work. So, help fuel the fire here and keep me entertained!
-Drumpel
UMBDAY
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/08/2017 08:06 AM CDT
>some posts that just seem to disagree just to disagree
Outrageous, I 100% disagree that this ever happens.
Outrageous, I 100% disagree that this ever happens.
TRIPLEGAME226
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/08/2017 09:01 AM CDT
>how most of them are trying to remember how to say grace in Armenian before dinner (they have cheat sheets that they always seem to forget and only one can say grace from memory
Grace? She passed away 30 years ago!
https://youtu.be/Aoj5qIZvwWA
>Outrageous, I 100% disagree that this ever happens.
I disagree with this disagreement
https://youtu.be/XNkjDuSVXiE
~ Methais
Grace? She passed away 30 years ago!
https://youtu.be/Aoj5qIZvwWA
>Outrageous, I 100% disagree that this ever happens.
I disagree with this disagreement
https://youtu.be/XNkjDuSVXiE
~ Methais
LADYFLEUR
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/08/2017 10:13 AM CDT
>NAOS 01/03/2011
Thanks for digging out this nugget!
Thanks for digging out this nugget!
GS4-ESTILD
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/08/2017 12:44 PM CDT
| LADYFLEUR |
| With a 4-way lore split vs. a sorcerer's 2-way split and a cleric/empath's 3-way split... |
Sorcerers have 8 lores to train in, broken down into 3 different spheres and with each sphere only affecting one of their spell circles. Empaths have 5 lores to train in, and we have plans to add another in the future, broken down into 2 different spheres and with one sphere (which is more than half the lores they train in) only affecting one of their spell circles. Clerics have 3 lores to train in with but one of those only affects 1 spell circle. Wizards have 4 lores to train in but each lore affects all 3 of their spell circles.
If you want to rephrase your statement down to the level of "sorcerers only have 2 lores to train in for their sorcerer spell circle", that's fine, but that's not what you're claiming above (in which case, stop using hyperbole) and even if you do that, it's not proving that wizards are training in any more lores than hybrids, because they're not. In no scenario, is 4 more than 8.
More so, comparing lores against just the number of possible lores to train in and not looking at the actual benefits is also misleading. Even if I accept that empaths had "3" lores to train in it (which I don't, since they don't), look at Wither vs Immolation. Empaths have to train in 2 different lores and spend twice as many training points to get the same lore benefits out of 1115 that wizards get out of 519 for just training in Elemental Lore, Fire.
No discussion to date has illustrated a problem with wizards and their lore setup. We've created a lot of benefit to training in each of the elemental lores, to the point that most wizards want to train in all of them to the maximum benefit, which is not possible and that's the intended design. Deciding what to train in is supposed to be a difficult, personal decision. Lastly, even if we did decide there was a problem, it would be addressed through changing the existing numbers for lore progression and not through some mechanism of phantom lore ranks.
GameMaster Estild
LADYFLEUR
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/08/2017 01:24 PM CDT
Thank you for the lengthy response, Estild. This provides some good insight into your thought process and prevents us from just throwing spaghetti at the walls because we don't know what your perspective is.
Let me start by saying that the lore comparison I'm making is at the post-cap level. I'm talking about the ultimate power ceiling achievable for each pure class, not what number of total lores a profession has available to them.
I agree that sorcerers have 8 total lores they can train in, but simplifying it to just one number is also losing sight of what the tradeoffs really are. Their 8 lores are split into 2 sorcerous, 3 elemental, 3 spiritual, and I know you'll agree that within each lore type, this reduces the choices to a 2 or 3-way split. From all the other capped sorcerers I speak with, there is agreement that elemental lore has little impact on anything but 719. This effectively makes it a no choice option. Sorcerous lores are split two ways with decent thresholds coming for both demonology and necromancy around 90 ranks, which gives them the option to have their cake and eat it too. Further, Ensorcell does not require any necromancy lore whatsoever to begin gaining energy. Despite theoretically having a 3-way split with spiritual lores, in reality, religion lore doesn't affect sorcerer spells at all. Blessings lore only provides minor defensive boosts to 107/115 and a chance at self-refreshing casts for 117. So in reality, it's mostly a 1-way split choice for spiritual lores should sorcerers decide to train in it. It affects Curse for the Sorcerer spell circle, but in reality, it's also mostly used to mitigate sickness from 130, or for 118/125 for setup or utility spells. While on paper, it looks like sorcerers have 8 lores in which they can train, and this is certainly true, the reality is that they only mostly need to train in necromancy and one elemental lore for offensive purposes.
>More so, comparing lores against just the number of possible lores to train in and not looking at the actual benefits is also misleading.
I... don't know where to start except to pose this statement back at you.
>Even if I accept that empaths had "3" lores to train in it (which I don't, since they don't), look at Wither vs Immolation. Empaths have to train in 2 different lores and spend twice as many training points to get the same lore benefits out of 1115 that wizards get out of 519 for just training in Elemental Lore, Fire.
Within a lore class, empaths have a 3-way split with mental lores, since for all practical purposes, transference only affects monk spells and divination isn't even implemented in any spell in the game. Within the spiritual lore class, empaths have an effective 2-way split because religion lore again affects only cleric and paladin spells. Summoning lore only affects 1115 for offensive purposes (and 1118) within the Empath spell circle, and as it is also the lore sub-type that affects 240, this lets empaths have their cake and eat it for no sacrifice. While it is true that 1115 theoretically requires both summoning lore and manipulation lore, the reality is that summoning lore provides the chance for an extra 4th cycle and manipulation lore is the chance for the instant kill.
In all the current discussions, there is no point in comparing base 1115 to base 519, which are not equivalent even by the data in the spreadsheet you provided. 519 at 1x lore is roughly equivalent to 1115 with zero lore, according to that data presented. But the reality is in the discussion of the post-cap power ceiling, 240 renders lores unnecessary even for 1115 because the sheer excessive warding margin alone, with the 1% fumble rate of failure, is sufficient to render the creature dead from the first few damage cycles alone. The same is true for 240 and 317. 519 has no such boost, and being entirely crit-based except the first, much lower, concussion cycle of damage, it doesn't even compare to baseline 317 because of the additional lottery factor. If a spell isn't going to reliably kill, then I am just not going to use it when it costs 2-4 mana more than a cleric or empath's spell option already.
>it's not proving that wizards are training in any more lores than hybrids
My intent was not to prove that wizards are training in more lores than hybrids. That's certainly never been the point that I've raised. My point is that wizards have to train more within their lore class (elemental) than any other spiritualist has to train in a single lore class and receive less meaningful benefits for their training than the spiritualists do, precisely because of having to split their one lore class 4-ways vs. a 3-way or 2-way split that allows a spiritualist to reach 60-70 of each lore in a 3-way split class or 90-100 ranks in a 2-way split lore class. This lets spiritualists have their cake and eat it too.
>We've created a lot of benefit to training in each of the elemental lores, to the point that most wizards want to train in all of them to the maximum benefit
I think you misunderstand here that it's not because wizards want to train in all of them to the maximum benefit. We have to train as much as possible in each to even approach some of the parity we enjoyed before.
>which is not possible and that's the intended design. Deciding what to train in is supposed to be a difficult, personal decision.
As illustrated above, this isn't the effective design for any of the other pures due to the choices they face in reality. The other spiritual pures get to have their cake and eat it too, at nearly every level.
>it would be addressed through changing the existing numbers for lore progression
Our request for this has also fallen on deaf ears, so we assumed that it was a cost issue.
Pointing all this out isn't to suggest that we nerf spiritualists or anything. I mean this with absolutely no disrespect, but it's factually clear to me from your arguments here that you're a spiritualist at heart. And that's great, for you and all my spiritual pures, for which I absolutely love the direction of development you've taken them. I just wish it was possible to get you to acknowledge the post-cap disparity that wizards and the other spiritual pures face. Honestly, if the post-cap, single-target instant kill issue was solved for wizards with no cooldown on a comparable cast/kill and cast time parity level as the other spiritual pures, I would have no more to say about the state of wizards because believe it or not, posting on the forums every day about this isn't the kind of thing I or any other post-cap wizard player enjoys doing instead of playing the game.
Let me start by saying that the lore comparison I'm making is at the post-cap level. I'm talking about the ultimate power ceiling achievable for each pure class, not what number of total lores a profession has available to them.
I agree that sorcerers have 8 total lores they can train in, but simplifying it to just one number is also losing sight of what the tradeoffs really are. Their 8 lores are split into 2 sorcerous, 3 elemental, 3 spiritual, and I know you'll agree that within each lore type, this reduces the choices to a 2 or 3-way split. From all the other capped sorcerers I speak with, there is agreement that elemental lore has little impact on anything but 719. This effectively makes it a no choice option. Sorcerous lores are split two ways with decent thresholds coming for both demonology and necromancy around 90 ranks, which gives them the option to have their cake and eat it too. Further, Ensorcell does not require any necromancy lore whatsoever to begin gaining energy. Despite theoretically having a 3-way split with spiritual lores, in reality, religion lore doesn't affect sorcerer spells at all. Blessings lore only provides minor defensive boosts to 107/115 and a chance at self-refreshing casts for 117. So in reality, it's mostly a 1-way split choice for spiritual lores should sorcerers decide to train in it. It affects Curse for the Sorcerer spell circle, but in reality, it's also mostly used to mitigate sickness from 130, or for 118/125 for setup or utility spells. While on paper, it looks like sorcerers have 8 lores in which they can train, and this is certainly true, the reality is that they only mostly need to train in necromancy and one elemental lore for offensive purposes.
>More so, comparing lores against just the number of possible lores to train in and not looking at the actual benefits is also misleading.
I... don't know where to start except to pose this statement back at you.
>Even if I accept that empaths had "3" lores to train in it (which I don't, since they don't), look at Wither vs Immolation. Empaths have to train in 2 different lores and spend twice as many training points to get the same lore benefits out of 1115 that wizards get out of 519 for just training in Elemental Lore, Fire.
Within a lore class, empaths have a 3-way split with mental lores, since for all practical purposes, transference only affects monk spells and divination isn't even implemented in any spell in the game. Within the spiritual lore class, empaths have an effective 2-way split because religion lore again affects only cleric and paladin spells. Summoning lore only affects 1115 for offensive purposes (and 1118) within the Empath spell circle, and as it is also the lore sub-type that affects 240, this lets empaths have their cake and eat it for no sacrifice. While it is true that 1115 theoretically requires both summoning lore and manipulation lore, the reality is that summoning lore provides the chance for an extra 4th cycle and manipulation lore is the chance for the instant kill.
In all the current discussions, there is no point in comparing base 1115 to base 519, which are not equivalent even by the data in the spreadsheet you provided. 519 at 1x lore is roughly equivalent to 1115 with zero lore, according to that data presented. But the reality is in the discussion of the post-cap power ceiling, 240 renders lores unnecessary even for 1115 because the sheer excessive warding margin alone, with the 1% fumble rate of failure, is sufficient to render the creature dead from the first few damage cycles alone. The same is true for 240 and 317. 519 has no such boost, and being entirely crit-based except the first, much lower, concussion cycle of damage, it doesn't even compare to baseline 317 because of the additional lottery factor. If a spell isn't going to reliably kill, then I am just not going to use it when it costs 2-4 mana more than a cleric or empath's spell option already.
>it's not proving that wizards are training in any more lores than hybrids
My intent was not to prove that wizards are training in more lores than hybrids. That's certainly never been the point that I've raised. My point is that wizards have to train more within their lore class (elemental) than any other spiritualist has to train in a single lore class and receive less meaningful benefits for their training than the spiritualists do, precisely because of having to split their one lore class 4-ways vs. a 3-way or 2-way split that allows a spiritualist to reach 60-70 of each lore in a 3-way split class or 90-100 ranks in a 2-way split lore class. This lets spiritualists have their cake and eat it too.
>We've created a lot of benefit to training in each of the elemental lores, to the point that most wizards want to train in all of them to the maximum benefit
I think you misunderstand here that it's not because wizards want to train in all of them to the maximum benefit. We have to train as much as possible in each to even approach some of the parity we enjoyed before.
>which is not possible and that's the intended design. Deciding what to train in is supposed to be a difficult, personal decision.
As illustrated above, this isn't the effective design for any of the other pures due to the choices they face in reality. The other spiritual pures get to have their cake and eat it too, at nearly every level.
>it would be addressed through changing the existing numbers for lore progression
Our request for this has also fallen on deaf ears, so we assumed that it was a cost issue.
Pointing all this out isn't to suggest that we nerf spiritualists or anything. I mean this with absolutely no disrespect, but it's factually clear to me from your arguments here that you're a spiritualist at heart. And that's great, for you and all my spiritual pures, for which I absolutely love the direction of development you've taken them. I just wish it was possible to get you to acknowledge the post-cap disparity that wizards and the other spiritual pures face. Honestly, if the post-cap, single-target instant kill issue was solved for wizards with no cooldown on a comparable cast/kill and cast time parity level as the other spiritual pures, I would have no more to say about the state of wizards because believe it or not, posting on the forums every day about this isn't the kind of thing I or any other post-cap wizard player enjoys doing instead of playing the game.
LADYFLEUR
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/08/2017 01:33 PM CDT
>Sorcerers have 8 lores to train in, broken down into 3 different spheres and with each sphere only affecting one of their spell circles. Empaths have 5 lores to train in, and we have plans to add another in the future, broken down into 2 different spheres and with one sphere (which is more than half the lores they train in) only affecting one of their spell circles. Clerics have 3 lores to train in with but one of those only affects 1 spell circle.
>Wizards have 4 lores to train in but each lore affects all 3 of their spell circles.
This is a design inconsistency in itself, because one of these professions is not like the others. Having a separate lore class/sphere that only affects one spell circle allows a profession to go 1x for the one that affects their offense if they so choose. For empaths, as pointed out above, 240 and 1115 are both affected by the same lore sphere and actual lore.
Meanwhile, I notice that you classified wizards as having 4 lores but they are all within the same sphere. This forced "choice" leads to nothing but sub-par results compared to any of the spiritual pures for precisely the reason that the lore thresholds are split up such that one has to train all over the place (fire, earth) to get "offensive" function, at great cost to the other defensive and utility benefits. These are not tradeoffs that the other spiritual pures have to make.
The bottom line is I don't care how many total lores a profession has available to train in. I care about the actual result of training in each *sphere of lore and the potential maximized offensive results from maximizing each sphere for each profession. There is no way to maximize the wizard profession as it stands with one sphere encompassing all 4 lore choices and the high thresholds required for each spell to function at a remotely equivalent level. This power disparity is further highlighted post-cap by the vast power ceiling gap between the warding system and the bolting system.
>Wizards have 4 lores to train in but each lore affects all 3 of their spell circles.
This is a design inconsistency in itself, because one of these professions is not like the others. Having a separate lore class/sphere that only affects one spell circle allows a profession to go 1x for the one that affects their offense if they so choose. For empaths, as pointed out above, 240 and 1115 are both affected by the same lore sphere and actual lore.
Meanwhile, I notice that you classified wizards as having 4 lores but they are all within the same sphere. This forced "choice" leads to nothing but sub-par results compared to any of the spiritual pures for precisely the reason that the lore thresholds are split up such that one has to train all over the place (fire, earth) to get "offensive" function, at great cost to the other defensive and utility benefits. These are not tradeoffs that the other spiritual pures have to make.
The bottom line is I don't care how many total lores a profession has available to train in. I care about the actual result of training in each *sphere of lore and the potential maximized offensive results from maximizing each sphere for each profession. There is no way to maximize the wizard profession as it stands with one sphere encompassing all 4 lore choices and the high thresholds required for each spell to function at a remotely equivalent level. This power disparity is further highlighted post-cap by the vast power ceiling gap between the warding system and the bolting system.
COLEMANJ
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/08/2017 01:50 PM CDT
>> Ensorcell does not require any necromancy lore whatsoever to begin gaining energy.
This is one of those times that only part of the equation (the part beneficial to the argument) is weighed and not the whole.
Energy expenditure is a prerequisite of Ensorcelling, and it is gained in only one way: Hunting.
Enchanting does not require any energy to be gained or expended. It can speed up the process, but in no shape or form is it required.
This is one of those cases, which seem to be growing more and more common, where only part of something is used because it supports our argument, where as the whole does not.
LADYFLEUR
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/08/2017 01:55 PM CDT
>Energy expenditure is a prerequisite of Ensorcelling, and it is gained in only one way: Hunting.
>Enchanting does not require any energy to be gained or expended. It can speed up the process, but in no shape or form is it required.
No, it's been repeated literally a dozen times at least by now too, but I don't find it necessary to re-paste the entire post every time. Many wizards would have preferred a hunting prerequisite and no lore to the system we were given. Further, hunting is something that every active character does and does not require extra effort. Staying logged in, under the current experience systems, for X number of hours to absorb experience in-game requires a distinctly different play style than one might normally employ and is contrary to the quality of life upgrades that the experience system was meant to introduce.
The fact remains that the necromancy lore component is optional and not required. With no necromancy lore, the amount of time it would take a sorcerer to reach a weekly cap compared to a wizard to reach a mana pool cap with 5 ranks of lore is night and day.
>Enchanting does not require any energy to be gained or expended. It can speed up the process, but in no shape or form is it required.
No, it's been repeated literally a dozen times at least by now too, but I don't find it necessary to re-paste the entire post every time. Many wizards would have preferred a hunting prerequisite and no lore to the system we were given. Further, hunting is something that every active character does and does not require extra effort. Staying logged in, under the current experience systems, for X number of hours to absorb experience in-game requires a distinctly different play style than one might normally employ and is contrary to the quality of life upgrades that the experience system was meant to introduce.
The fact remains that the necromancy lore component is optional and not required. With no necromancy lore, the amount of time it would take a sorcerer to reach a weekly cap compared to a wizard to reach a mana pool cap with 5 ranks of lore is night and day.
KOMBAT
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/08/2017 02:00 PM CDT
So you want to be able to max out your killing power lore and your money making lore?
COLEMANJ
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/08/2017 02:04 PM CDT
Whether many people prefer it to be required or not wasn't the argument made. The argument made was that Ensorcel does not require necromancy lore. The exact same is true of Enchanting.
LADYFLEUR
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/08/2017 02:04 PM CDT
I'm not even discussing enchanting here, but yes, sorcerers can do this.
LADYFLEUR
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/08/2017 02:07 PM CDT
>The exact same is true of Enchanting.
Not to approach even the same time frame of reasonable results that ensorcell delivers. I understand that we're talking about this from two different angles, but I would have liked Enchant to baseline require hunting to function and deliver a comparably timely result as Ensorcell without lore. Taking 4 months to complete a project over 3 weeks is archaic in today's game. To me, the update encompassing time savings to bring it up to 2017 mechanics should have been part of the baseline update, even if it required adding a hunting component.
Not to approach even the same time frame of reasonable results that ensorcell delivers. I understand that we're talking about this from two different angles, but I would have liked Enchant to baseline require hunting to function and deliver a comparably timely result as Ensorcell without lore. Taking 4 months to complete a project over 3 weeks is archaic in today's game. To me, the update encompassing time savings to bring it up to 2017 mechanics should have been part of the baseline update, even if it required adding a hunting component.
KOMBAT
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/08/2017 02:10 PM CDT
I think it could be argued that enchanting provides a much greater benefit in combat, since it exists on every attack whereas ensorcelling does not. It should take more time to provide that benefit.
LADYFLEUR
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/08/2017 02:12 PM CDT
>I think it could be argued that enchanting provides a much greater benefit in combat, since it exists on every attack whereas ensorcelling does not. It should take more time to provide that benefit.
It could be also argued that effective TD, which ensorcell provides on a permanent basis, is much more powerful than DS as evidenced by the disparity in costs between TD services and enchanting/AS boosts from Duskruin. Yet it takes a fraction of the time to deliver that benefit.
But let me go post in the sorcerer folder and tell them that they're getting too much benefit for what they put in and they shouldn't expect any positive development or changes. /sarcasm
It could be also argued that effective TD, which ensorcell provides on a permanent basis, is much more powerful than DS as evidenced by the disparity in costs between TD services and enchanting/AS boosts from Duskruin. Yet it takes a fraction of the time to deliver that benefit.
But let me go post in the sorcerer folder and tell them that they're getting too much benefit for what they put in and they shouldn't expect any positive development or changes. /sarcasm
COLEMANJ
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/08/2017 02:13 PM CDT
I agree with enchating times vs ensorcelling times are greatly in favor of the sorcerer.. However, the discussion was about sorcerer lore not being a prerequisite of ensorcelling. Lore isn't required for enchanting, either..
LADYFLEUR
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/08/2017 02:17 PM CDT
The point remains that sorcerers enjoy high levels of benefits at 90-100 ranks of both necromancy and demonology, which makes it no choice at all and allows them to have their cake and eat it. The wizard cake is all crumbled to pieces by the time it's done being split up.
TRIPLEGAME226
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/08/2017 02:25 PM CDT
>Fleurs' long post
I agree with everything said in this post, and am glad she beat me to the punch because I wouldn't be able to articulate it nearly as well.
~ Fleurs' Other Account That I'm Posting From Just To Agree With Myself
I agree with everything said in this post, and am glad she beat me to the punch because I wouldn't be able to articulate it nearly as well.
~ Fleurs' Other Account That I'm Posting From Just To Agree With Myself
UMBDAY
Re: Another Reason Water Lore Should Also Unlock Minor Steam
05/08/2017 02:34 PM CDT
>I agree with everything said in this post, and am glad she beat me to the punch because I wouldn't be able to articulate it nearly as well.
Don't be so hard on yourself, just talk about having cake and eating it too and see where things go.
Don't be so hard on yourself, just talk about having cake and eating it too and see where things go.
