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>>2. You won't offer desired services at free events (or you know just without an event).
Not sure I follow here. We offered plenty of desired services. IthzirArmor, VolnArmor, and Thrown Returners were all just offered in the recent past at non-pay events.
Wyrom, PM
SIMU-WYROM
KRAKII
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/22/2017 01:39 PM CDT
Wyrom, were those raffles, or sales/auctions?
SIMU-WYROM
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/22/2017 01:40 PM CDT
Returner was a raffle, I'd have to look at the armor unlock ones, as they weren't within the last month.
Wyrom, PM
Wyrom, PM
VANKRASN39
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/22/2017 01:43 PM CDT
I don't think Ithzir happened publicly.
KITHUS
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/22/2017 01:44 PM CDT
Alright:
2. You offer desired services at a much lower frequency and in less variety at free events than you do pay events.
The point is if there's no use for silvers at all these pay events there's maybe once a year silvers MIGHT matter and only if you get picked for one of the few select services. Pay events need to charge silvers for high end stuff. Otherwise the game is basically 100% pay to win. You don't have to play at all to get the best chance at high end services. Just throw cash around.
2. You offer desired services at a much lower frequency and in less variety at free events than you do pay events.
The point is if there's no use for silvers at all these pay events there's maybe once a year silvers MIGHT matter and only if you get picked for one of the few select services. Pay events need to charge silvers for high end stuff. Otherwise the game is basically 100% pay to win. You don't have to play at all to get the best chance at high end services. Just throw cash around.
| Keith/Brinret/Eronderl |
| Keith is correct |
| -Wyrom, APM |
| Keith is correct. |
| -GameMaster Estild |
SIMU-WYROM
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/22/2017 01:49 PM CDT
We have plans to offer more variety of rare services in game. Likely won't drain silver, so it's not really relevant to this discussion.
Wyrom, PM
Wyrom, PM
KITHUS
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/22/2017 01:51 PM CDT
That's great to hear Wyrom. I still say pay events need to have silver prices attached to services and gear. Having Duskruin as the lone exception was fine but if every pay event is going to be silver free now that's a problem. Again maybe I'm misunderstanding.
| Keith/Brinret/Eronderl |
| Keith is correct |
| -Wyrom, APM |
| Keith is correct. |
| -GameMaster Estild |
ARCHSENEX
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/22/2017 01:53 PM CDT
>> I still say pay events need to have silver prices attached to services and gear.
I will flip that around. For a long time, I couldn't/wouldn't attend pay events because paying a couple hundred dollars to get to spend a thousand dollars on silver wasn't very appealing. For myself, pay events with a requirement that I contract a silver farmer just to get to access to stuff at that event was a non-starter.
I will flip that around. For a long time, I couldn't/wouldn't attend pay events because paying a couple hundred dollars to get to spend a thousand dollars on silver wasn't very appealing. For myself, pay events with a requirement that I contract a silver farmer just to get to access to stuff at that event was a non-starter.
ATALYCUS
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/22/2017 01:58 PM CDT
When simucoins first came out I was like oh interesting. Then came the removal of bmc (I know lack of people) more like lack of lots of people buying simucoins. Then came Dr DM summit etc. And now a different EG (Yes the order maybe off) I don't have a lot of personal income so with silver prices tanking my buying into things will get less and less and for me who loves to gamble/play the events I will sadly lose my love for the game. I mean 8 to 9 million silvers for a book makes doing the sewers idiotic yet i have done them probably 2000 times losing a few million silvers each book. Maybe I have the wrong priorities but that's me. I still think my unlimited raffle ticket raffles is a good idea.
PS. As we go on if silver prices stay the same the next Dr or DM or whatever will have a lot less entries. You csn take that to the bank.
KITHUS
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/22/2017 02:03 PM CDT
| to spend a thousand dollars on silver wasn't very appealing. |
What service were you getting on what item that cost you that much? I mean if you're getting an ithzir unlock on 10x ECP armor with tons of resistances and spell knowledge enhancive of 1606 it should cost 100 mil in silvers. If you're getting heavy crit weighting on a 5x weapon you probably shouldn't be paying more than like 10 mil in silvers. You should be able to save up and earn that yourself. If all you need to do is pay an event ticket what value is there to spending time actually hunting in game to acquire silvers?
| Keith/Brinret/Eronderl |
| Keith is correct |
| -Wyrom, APM |
| Keith is correct. |
| -GameMaster Estild |
TRIPLEGAME226
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/22/2017 02:04 PM CDT
>Well, as painful as this might sound, Simutronics can't protect your bottom line. We cannot govern the value at which people sell silvers. We also can't make it where each event has a profit margin to players for flipping items and silvers. Sellers need to recognize the market. Some of you generate 30 million silver a week. You know who you are. But silvers still have a use. You're just not able to move your silvers as fast anymore. It's because other players are becoming self-sufficient. Or they bought their cool item, they don't need another one. We don't raise the cap on gear every quarter like other games, forcing you to buy in to new equipment each time. That's how many other games solve this issue
What will these uses be that you say silvers will still have? Buying wands from the pawnshop or some random off the shelf vanilla gear? What am I missing here?
The reason silvers are pretty much dead now is because you made them worthless by making Simucoins the only path to high end gear or upgrades.
But I'm really curious what you mean when you say silvers will still be useful. Mind providing some examples?
~ Methais
What will these uses be that you say silvers will still have? Buying wands from the pawnshop or some random off the shelf vanilla gear? What am I missing here?
The reason silvers are pretty much dead now is because you made them worthless by making Simucoins the only path to high end gear or upgrades.
But I'm really curious what you mean when you say silvers will still be useful. Mind providing some examples?
~ Methais
TRIPLEGAME226
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/22/2017 02:20 PM CDT
>That's not how economics work. You can believe that, but there has to be a way to generate supply for price floors to drop. Either way, we cannot govern the price of silver in the player economy
But what you can do is manipulate the conditions that dictate whether or not silvers have worth. Which is, you know, exactly what you did and now GS is a pay2grind2win game.
Plenty of suggestions have been made to keep silvers relevant, but every silver spent is apparently viewed as a potential missed Simucoin sale.
Hopefully I'll see the light if given some examples on how silver will still be useful though. Because I don't think anyone's gonna come off their ebow for silvers anymore, etc.
~ Methais
But what you can do is manipulate the conditions that dictate whether or not silvers have worth. Which is, you know, exactly what you did and now GS is a pay2grind2win game.
Plenty of suggestions have been made to keep silvers relevant, but every silver spent is apparently viewed as a potential missed Simucoin sale.
Hopefully I'll see the light if given some examples on how silver will still be useful though. Because I don't think anyone's gonna come off their ebow for silvers anymore, etc.
~ Methais
AUDIOSERF
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/22/2017 02:24 PM CDT
Back in the game for the first time in around 18 months and it's pretty hilarious that I can't find any high end items for sale in silvers. It' all BoneScip all the time. So I now have to buy BS from players to then buy the items, or pay SimuCoins and then try to farm my own BS. That's leaving me struggling to find a reason to bother picking up treasure in the field at this point; if you have silver on hand for basic everyday piddly NPC charges/necessities, you probably don't need anymore in the game as its stands. It'll save a bunch of time not having to get boxes opened or do sell runs.
ARCHIGEEK
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/22/2017 02:28 PM CDT
<<That's not how economics work. You can believe that, but there has to be a way to generate supply for price floors to drop. Either way, we cannot govern the price of silver in the player economy. -Wyrom>>
Actually it is how economics work.
Economics are not simply supply and demand. Perception is just as important as supply and demand. The perception that a currency is valued by the government that controls it, has a great impact on the value in the market. When you basically throw up your hands and state that there's nothing you can do, people lose confidence in the currency, just as they would with a real world currency, or in the same way a stock goes down in the stock market when the CEO says the next quarter is going to be weak, as well as the foreseeable future, at the annual meeting.
Silver value is important to all of your customers, not just those who buy and sell stuff for cash. The lack of confidence in the silvers/cash market is just a mirror that shows the problem in clearly understandable terms, but the problem is just as real for the player who'd like to buy some new armor with silvers, as it is for the player who is comfortable buying the same item for cash. In fact, it is more real, because paying with silvers is becoming harder and harder to do.
Kerl
Actually it is how economics work.
Economics are not simply supply and demand. Perception is just as important as supply and demand. The perception that a currency is valued by the government that controls it, has a great impact on the value in the market. When you basically throw up your hands and state that there's nothing you can do, people lose confidence in the currency, just as they would with a real world currency, or in the same way a stock goes down in the stock market when the CEO says the next quarter is going to be weak, as well as the foreseeable future, at the annual meeting.
Silver value is important to all of your customers, not just those who buy and sell stuff for cash. The lack of confidence in the silvers/cash market is just a mirror that shows the problem in clearly understandable terms, but the problem is just as real for the player who'd like to buy some new armor with silvers, as it is for the player who is comfortable buying the same item for cash. In fact, it is more real, because paying with silvers is becoming harder and harder to do.
Kerl
VEYTHORNE
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/22/2017 02:29 PM CDT
>Second, if you meant that somehow said farming & selling might possibly be good for Simutronics in some way... How? Please explain. Use small words...
I'll explain this, and I'll even use small words so you understand, as requested.
Duskruin requires cash to play.
People used to sell silvers, to buy simucoins, to buy duskruin entries.
They would play duskruin, earn bloodscrip, sell bloodscrip for silvers.
Rinse. Repeat.
Simucoin events and selling silvers is a symbiotic relationship.
Since silvers have lost their value, it's no longer "worth it" for most people to do the above. Simutronics income will suffer, because less people have access to cash to play. They could previously rely on selling some silvers to play, now that's ended.
I know people like to claim that Simu is milking everyone for all they can get, but the cow has run dry for many people now.
The whole system is like spokes on a wheel, and now that wheel has broken. Thanks Daenerys.
I'll explain this, and I'll even use small words so you understand, as requested.
Duskruin requires cash to play.
People used to sell silvers, to buy simucoins, to buy duskruin entries.
They would play duskruin, earn bloodscrip, sell bloodscrip for silvers.
Rinse. Repeat.
Simucoin events and selling silvers is a symbiotic relationship.
Since silvers have lost their value, it's no longer "worth it" for most people to do the above. Simutronics income will suffer, because less people have access to cash to play. They could previously rely on selling some silvers to play, now that's ended.
I know people like to claim that Simu is milking everyone for all they can get, but the cow has run dry for many people now.
The whole system is like spokes on a wheel, and now that wheel has broken. Thanks Daenerys.
SIMU-WYROM
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/22/2017 02:56 PM CDT
>>Economics are not simply supply and demand. Perception is just as important as supply and demand. The perception that a currency is valued by the government that controls it, has a great impact on the value in the market. When you basically throw up your hands and state that there's nothing you can do, people lose confidence in the currency, just as they would with a real world currency, or in the same way a stock goes down in the stock market when the CEO says the next quarter is going to be weak, as well as the foreseeable future, at the annual meeting.
But I didn't say that, and the comparison to the game economy isn't really fair to compare to a stock market.
Wyrom, PM
But I didn't say that, and the comparison to the game economy isn't really fair to compare to a stock market.
Wyrom, PM
OM1E5GA
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/22/2017 02:58 PM CDT
Hasn't this thread run it's course and then some?
I can't believe a name in red is even bothering to reply to the concerns about the cash value of silvers since I'd always been led to believe selling silvers was a violation of ToS...
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
I can't believe a name in red is even bothering to reply to the concerns about the cash value of silvers since I'd always been led to believe selling silvers was a violation of ToS...
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
ATALYCUS
KRAKII
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/22/2017 03:44 PM CDT
Veythorne, in the cycle that you describe, all I see is the effect on the FARMERS (be it of silver, or bloodscrip, or whatever). What you describe makes it look like Simutronics has made it more likely that people will pay THEM, instead of the Farmer.
And quite frankly, I don't give a flying bloody damn about the impact on the farmers. More income for the company who actually runs the game, cannot be anything but good.
.
What you have described is not symbiosis, it's parasitism. If Simutronics gets $200 from a Farmer who sells what he finds (or creates, such as with bloodscrip customization) for $500 (I'm looking at some of the "100M" items that used to be posted, and using recent silver prices [not even gouging, at the higher rate back then!])... Why is this in Simutronics' interest to enable?
.
When Farmers can no longer reliably generate <what is desired, be it silver or bloodscrip> at a rate that lets them sell it <for whatever price> faster than they have to shell out to generate it... Then we get fewer Farmers. Note that there are several moving parts to that equation.
What is being generated (silvers, or scrip, or whatever) could happen more slowly. The price that people are willing to pay--FOR WHATEVER REASON--could drop. The price to get access to it (be it the monthly subscription or the SimuCoin) could go up.
Sounds like it has been described as one of those going on already: people are willing to pay less RL currency for their silvers.
.
.
Also... where did this sudden concern for silvers come from? The notional economy in GemStone has been broken--and known to be broken, and explicitly described by staff as broken--for fifteen plus years, because of the never-ending river of silver being created by the game.
Did these posts start showing up, solely because peoples' OOC sales were getting hurt?
And quite frankly, I don't give a flying bloody damn about the impact on the farmers. More income for the company who actually runs the game, cannot be anything but good.
.
What you have described is not symbiosis, it's parasitism. If Simutronics gets $200 from a Farmer who sells what he finds (or creates, such as with bloodscrip customization) for $500 (I'm looking at some of the "100M" items that used to be posted, and using recent silver prices [not even gouging, at the higher rate back then!])... Why is this in Simutronics' interest to enable?
.
When Farmers can no longer reliably generate <what is desired, be it silver or bloodscrip> at a rate that lets them sell it <for whatever price> faster than they have to shell out to generate it... Then we get fewer Farmers. Note that there are several moving parts to that equation.
What is being generated (silvers, or scrip, or whatever) could happen more slowly. The price that people are willing to pay--FOR WHATEVER REASON--could drop. The price to get access to it (be it the monthly subscription or the SimuCoin) could go up.
Sounds like it has been described as one of those going on already: people are willing to pay less RL currency for their silvers.
.
.
Also... where did this sudden concern for silvers come from? The notional economy in GemStone has been broken--and known to be broken, and explicitly described by staff as broken--for fifteen plus years, because of the never-ending river of silver being created by the game.
Did these posts start showing up, solely because peoples' OOC sales were getting hurt?
VEYTHORNE
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/22/2017 04:12 PM CDT
>Veythorne, in the cycle that you describe, all I see is the effect on the FARMERS (be it of silver, or bloodscrip, or whatever). What you describe makes it look like Simutronics has made it more likely that people will pay THEM, instead of the Farmer.
No, that makes it more likely that they won't participate at all. And everyone they previously traded with will also participate less.
I'm not sure you understand that not everyone has cash to spend. They get that cash by selling bloodscrip and/or silvers. That option is no longer an option. So they no longer spend cash. Simu makes less.
You want to focus on the word farmers like it's some he who must not be named person. When in reality, the farmers are the majority of players who have silvers or bloodscrip, not cash, who trade various things they do have for cash to participate in the event.
I don't enjoy going back and forth with you, so this will be my last response to you.
Simu is going to make less since people can no longer swap bloodscrip/silvers for cash. You can choose to believe whatever you want. But that is how a lot of people participated in previous duskruin runs.
No, that makes it more likely that they won't participate at all. And everyone they previously traded with will also participate less.
I'm not sure you understand that not everyone has cash to spend. They get that cash by selling bloodscrip and/or silvers. That option is no longer an option. So they no longer spend cash. Simu makes less.
You want to focus on the word farmers like it's some he who must not be named person. When in reality, the farmers are the majority of players who have silvers or bloodscrip, not cash, who trade various things they do have for cash to participate in the event.
I don't enjoy going back and forth with you, so this will be my last response to you.
Simu is going to make less since people can no longer swap bloodscrip/silvers for cash. You can choose to believe whatever you want. But that is how a lot of people participated in previous duskruin runs.
VANKRASN39
FUDGEHJ
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/22/2017 05:24 PM CDT
There is a variety of reasons that silvers are now perceived as having less value.
A lot of it is because of the aging player base...not aging players, but how most folks have capped or near capped characters that are very active in the game. This...skews perceptions.
Another thing that skews this discussion is there is a group of players who have overinvested in silvers and who have decided to monetize their game experience and this change devalues silvers...so they are mad and unreasonable.
The third issue is that any change will need to take time and research...and that will have to take away from other projects. Which is fine as long as its a project you dont care about it...but not fine if its one you do!
Fourth: No matter what they change, someone is gonna get the raw end of the deal here. 100% of people will not feel its fair nor will they feel its equitable. So they are kinda in a bind here, cause cmon...things are taken to extremes by this community that boggle the mind.
I've given several ideas I think would up the perceived silver value issue. But I dont have the data nor the economic background to know just what effect these changes would have on the game.
But I am not shedding a tear for people who can't sell their silver for $$$ now. Woe, woe, woe is you. Did you learn a lesson?
Berbels shrilly exclaims, "Ise takings hims tos secretses lairses!"
Berbels grabs you and drags you east.
A lot of it is because of the aging player base...not aging players, but how most folks have capped or near capped characters that are very active in the game. This...skews perceptions.
Another thing that skews this discussion is there is a group of players who have overinvested in silvers and who have decided to monetize their game experience and this change devalues silvers...so they are mad and unreasonable.
The third issue is that any change will need to take time and research...and that will have to take away from other projects. Which is fine as long as its a project you dont care about it...but not fine if its one you do!
Fourth: No matter what they change, someone is gonna get the raw end of the deal here. 100% of people will not feel its fair nor will they feel its equitable. So they are kinda in a bind here, cause cmon...things are taken to extremes by this community that boggle the mind.
I've given several ideas I think would up the perceived silver value issue. But I dont have the data nor the economic background to know just what effect these changes would have on the game.
But I am not shedding a tear for people who can't sell their silver for $$$ now. Woe, woe, woe is you. Did you learn a lesson?
Berbels shrilly exclaims, "Ise takings hims tos secretses lairses!"
Berbels grabs you and drags you east.
ARCHIGEEK
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/22/2017 05:40 PM CDT
Sure. I can't quote you as saying exactly that, but you're giving the impression that you don't have confidence in the currency, and you talk about an inability to solve the problem, and you did in fact say that the silver market was likely headed down, and for the foreseeable future. I could go snag the exact quote, but that's the gist. You've done nothing to indicate that the future of your game's currency looks good. That's pretty much the same as what I described.
Kerl
Kerl
SIMU-WYROM
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/22/2017 05:43 PM CDT
If that's your takeaway from what I said, I'll work on clarifying that.
Wyrom, PM
Wyrom, PM
ARCHIGEEK
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/22/2017 05:46 PM CDT
I've said repeatedly that the problem is not for those who sell silvers for cash. I don't much care about that either. The problem is much worse for those who would rather pay silvers, but items are no longer available for silvers, because silvers are worthless. Those who buy and sell cor cash will continue to do so and will go about their merry way. It's people who like to hunt and earn a decent number of silvers and then spend them. Those are the ones who will be left holding the bag.
Kerl
Kerl
SIMU-WYROM
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/22/2017 06:03 PM CDT
I think what you're saying, Kerl, is getting drowned out by those who are worried about the profit margins and monetization of their gaming experience.
Wyrom, PM
Wyrom, PM
JOEKUPS
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/22/2017 06:17 PM CDT
I think most people are saying that. Its just easier to point to the external price as the best indication of the loss of confidence in the in-game currency. This then makes others rise up and muddy the water with "well don't engage in the external market", which misses the whole point of the problem and sends it off in the wrong direction.
Wyrom says, "Ordim is the reason savants won't be coded as well."
Wyrom says, "Ordim is the reason savants won't be coded as well."
KITHUS
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/22/2017 06:21 PM CDT
| I've said repeatedly that the problem is not for those who sell silvers for cash. I don't much care about that either. The problem is much worse for those who would rather pay silvers, but items are no longer available for silvers, because silvers are worthless. Those who buy and sell cor cash will continue to do so and will go about their merry way. It's people who like to hunt and earn a decent number of silvers and then spend them. Those are the ones who will be left holding the bag. |
| Kerl |
I'm just going to quote this because it really covers my concern. I don't buy or sell things for cash in GS as a rule. What I do it hunt my little brain out to get silvers and then use those silvers to get ahead. That's getting harder and harder to do. That said the silvers for books thing is fantastic and exactly the kind of thing I've been hoping to see.
| Keith/Brinret/Eronderl |
| Keith is correct |
| -Wyrom, APM |
| Keith is correct. |
| -GameMaster Estild |
ALLENM20
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/22/2017 06:44 PM CDT
Offering slips, tokens, etc for silvers after a set period of time is a perfectly reasonable compromise in my opinion. The players willing to pay cash get first dibs at limited items and cheaper scaling price but it doesn't shut out the players unable or unwilling to spend cash from these events.
As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear.
AIM: Kaight (Matt) GS4
As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear.
AIM: Kaight (Matt) GS4
AGONY42
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/22/2017 07:17 PM CDT
>>I'm just going to quote this because it really covers my concern. I don't buy or sell things for cash in GS as a rule.
Where was that rule when Fjalar cashed out? ;)
~Issalya
You see High Inquisitor Brinret Ithillote the Executor of Vengeance.
She appears to be of elven descent.
He is very tall and appears to be full grown.
You whisper aloud, "I'm so confused right now."
Where was that rule when Fjalar cashed out? ;)
~Issalya
You see High Inquisitor Brinret Ithillote the Executor of Vengeance.
She appears to be of elven descent.
He is very tall and appears to be full grown.
You whisper aloud, "I'm so confused right now."
TRIPLEGAME226
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/22/2017 08:15 PM CDT
>I can't believe a name in red is even bothering to reply to the concerns about the cash value of silvers since I'd always been led to believe selling silvers was a violation of ToS...
People are complaining about silvers becoming useless in game and the detrimental effect it's going to have on the game over time. Not everyone who buys things with silvers are buying their silvers. People do still farm their own. I'd even say that there are much more people who farm their own silvers vs. people who buy them. For the most part, at least in my experiences, it's the same group of people who buy silvers over and over, as opposed to some gamewide epidemic like some are trying to paint it as.
>Why is this in Simutronics' interest to enable?
Do you not see a problem with never being able to buy and/or upgrade anything high end with silvers and instead being expected to spend hundreds of dollars in Simucoins as the only option? Do you think people will continue to sell old existing gear for silvers? I don't, I expect those all to become cash only any day now if it hasn't already happened.
The reason why silvers are so out of control is because there's nothing to spend them on, and Simu is exacerbating the problem both by flooding even more silvers into the game in apparently ridiculously high amounts in DR while simultaneously complaining about too many silvers with no drain and then making Simucoins the only avenue to getting anything going forward. The flooding of silvers via DR contradicts any claims Simu is making that they're not trying to phase out silvers and makes the whole thing look very deliberate, which I believe is the case regardless of how they try to spin it.
>name changes for silvers
This would probably be a pretty effective sink. A lot of people really hate their characters' names that seemed cool to them years ago when they rolled them up, and you could get away with charging a ton for it.
Take it even further and allow all kinds of cosmetic changes for silvers. Throw in some automated alteration machine that operates on silvers, but charges much more than what you'd pay at a GM merchant. I'm sure checks could be put in place to prevent people from abusing it and creating vultite Playstations or whatnot.
Most services that GM merchants currently offer, either cosmetic or mechanical, could be converted to an automated system, but with a much higher price tag than getting merchant work done the normal way. Or sell different merchant service tickets from an automated NPC for X inflated silver price and call it a convenience charge if automation .
"But why should we do that for silvers when we could do it for Simucoins???"
Do both then. Each will have their respective market. Someone spending silvers on something doesn't mean they would have otherwise bought Simucoins for the same item/service if that were their only option. Most would just do neither and then their coins just stay in the bank, slowly piling up because they can't find anything worthwhile to spend their coins on anymore.
It's very possible for both a silver and Simucoin economy to coexist and both flourish. Simu just has to not be actively against it or take steps to devalue silvers.
>If that's your takeaway from what I said, I'll work on clarifying that.
That's also my takeaway. I think just giving us some examples on how silvers will still be useful would tell a lot.
>It's people who like to hunt and earn a decent number of silvers and then spend them. Those are the ones who will be left holding the bag. -Kerl
>I think what you're saying, Kerl, is getting drowned out by those who are worried about the profit margins and monetization of their gaming experience. -Wyrom
Some people sell silvers to make rent or whatever, sure. But you're also overlooking the fact that there are others who do it not because they NEED the cash, because there's nothing worthwhile for them to spend their silvers on, which makes it really pointless to just sit on them. Which I'm sure some have sat on them in hopes something cool would come out to spend them on, and are probably full of regret for not just cashing them out when they had the chance.
Silvers for books is a step in the right direction. I saw a blip on TownCrier mentioning it, though it said it was a limited time thing. Why not just make it permanent? Nobody will be able to generate enough silver to sustain burning through book after book at 10.5 per or whatever it's currently set to. And if prices need to be increased or whatever, adjust accordingly, and then world peace will ensue.
>I've said repeatedly that the problem is not for those who sell silvers for cash. I don't much care about that either. The problem is much worse for those who would rather pay silvers, but items are no longer available for silvers, because silvers are worthless. Those who buy and sell cor cash will continue to do so and will go about their merry way. It's people who like to hunt and earn a decent number of silvers and then spend them. Those are the ones who will be left holding the bag. -Kerl
I wish I saw this before I already typed everything else up. :(
~ Methais
People are complaining about silvers becoming useless in game and the detrimental effect it's going to have on the game over time. Not everyone who buys things with silvers are buying their silvers. People do still farm their own. I'd even say that there are much more people who farm their own silvers vs. people who buy them. For the most part, at least in my experiences, it's the same group of people who buy silvers over and over, as opposed to some gamewide epidemic like some are trying to paint it as.
>Why is this in Simutronics' interest to enable?
Do you not see a problem with never being able to buy and/or upgrade anything high end with silvers and instead being expected to spend hundreds of dollars in Simucoins as the only option? Do you think people will continue to sell old existing gear for silvers? I don't, I expect those all to become cash only any day now if it hasn't already happened.
The reason why silvers are so out of control is because there's nothing to spend them on, and Simu is exacerbating the problem both by flooding even more silvers into the game in apparently ridiculously high amounts in DR while simultaneously complaining about too many silvers with no drain and then making Simucoins the only avenue to getting anything going forward. The flooding of silvers via DR contradicts any claims Simu is making that they're not trying to phase out silvers and makes the whole thing look very deliberate, which I believe is the case regardless of how they try to spin it.
>name changes for silvers
This would probably be a pretty effective sink. A lot of people really hate their characters' names that seemed cool to them years ago when they rolled them up, and you could get away with charging a ton for it.
Take it even further and allow all kinds of cosmetic changes for silvers. Throw in some automated alteration machine that operates on silvers, but charges much more than what you'd pay at a GM merchant. I'm sure checks could be put in place to prevent people from abusing it and creating vultite Playstations or whatnot.
Most services that GM merchants currently offer, either cosmetic or mechanical, could be converted to an automated system, but with a much higher price tag than getting merchant work done the normal way. Or sell different merchant service tickets from an automated NPC for X inflated silver price and call it a convenience charge if automation .
"But why should we do that for silvers when we could do it for Simucoins???"
Do both then. Each will have their respective market. Someone spending silvers on something doesn't mean they would have otherwise bought Simucoins for the same item/service if that were their only option. Most would just do neither and then their coins just stay in the bank, slowly piling up because they can't find anything worthwhile to spend their coins on anymore.
It's very possible for both a silver and Simucoin economy to coexist and both flourish. Simu just has to not be actively against it or take steps to devalue silvers.
>If that's your takeaway from what I said, I'll work on clarifying that.
That's also my takeaway. I think just giving us some examples on how silvers will still be useful would tell a lot.
>It's people who like to hunt and earn a decent number of silvers and then spend them. Those are the ones who will be left holding the bag. -Kerl
>I think what you're saying, Kerl, is getting drowned out by those who are worried about the profit margins and monetization of their gaming experience. -Wyrom
Some people sell silvers to make rent or whatever, sure. But you're also overlooking the fact that there are others who do it not because they NEED the cash, because there's nothing worthwhile for them to spend their silvers on, which makes it really pointless to just sit on them. Which I'm sure some have sat on them in hopes something cool would come out to spend them on, and are probably full of regret for not just cashing them out when they had the chance.
Silvers for books is a step in the right direction. I saw a blip on TownCrier mentioning it, though it said it was a limited time thing. Why not just make it permanent? Nobody will be able to generate enough silver to sustain burning through book after book at 10.5 per or whatever it's currently set to. And if prices need to be increased or whatever, adjust accordingly, and then world peace will ensue.
>I've said repeatedly that the problem is not for those who sell silvers for cash. I don't much care about that either. The problem is much worse for those who would rather pay silvers, but items are no longer available for silvers, because silvers are worthless. Those who buy and sell cor cash will continue to do so and will go about their merry way. It's people who like to hunt and earn a decent number of silvers and then spend them. Those are the ones who will be left holding the bag. -Kerl
I wish I saw this before I already typed everything else up. :(
~ Methais
RISHIB1
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/23/2017 01:24 AM CDT
>I've said repeatedly that the problem is not for those who sell silvers for cash. I don't much care about that either. The problem is much worse for those who would rather pay silvers, but items are no longer available for silvers, because silvers are worthless. Those who buy and sell cor cash will continue to do so and will go about their merry way. It's people who like to hunt and earn a decent number of silvers and then spend them. Those are the ones who will be left holding the bag. - Kerl
Quoting what Kerl said. This is an effective summary of the true problem. The external price indicator just makes the problem visible to everyone.
Rishi
- Player of Kembal
Speaking to Plur, Belnia says, "You're no Kembal."
[Roll result: -2112 (open d100: 82)]
A giantman thief crouches and sweeps a leg at you, but only manages to trip himself.
Quoting what Kerl said. This is an effective summary of the true problem. The external price indicator just makes the problem visible to everyone.
Rishi
- Player of Kembal
Speaking to Plur, Belnia says, "You're no Kembal."
[Roll result: -2112 (open d100: 82)]
A giantman thief crouches and sweeps a leg at you, but only manages to trip himself.
AUDIOSERF
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/23/2017 08:34 AM CDT
Co-signing what Kerl said.
<I've said repeatedly that the problem is not for those who sell silvers for cash. I don't much care about that either. The problem is much worse for those who would rather pay silvers, but items are no longer available for silvers, because silvers are worthless. Those who buy and sell cor cash will continue to do so and will go about their merry way. It's people who like to hunt and earn a decent number of silvers and then spend them. Those are the ones who will be left holding the bag.
Kerl>>
<I've said repeatedly that the problem is not for those who sell silvers for cash. I don't much care about that either. The problem is much worse for those who would rather pay silvers, but items are no longer available for silvers, because silvers are worthless. Those who buy and sell cor cash will continue to do so and will go about their merry way. It's people who like to hunt and earn a decent number of silvers and then spend them. Those are the ones who will be left holding the bag.
Kerl>>
KRAKII
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/23/2017 08:42 AM CDT
"The problem is much worse for those who would rather pay silvers, but items are no longer available for silvers, because silvers are worthless." -- Kerl, echoed by many
WHICH items are no longer available for silvers? Ones bought from other players? Or ones bought from NPCs?
WHICH items are no longer available for silvers? Ones bought from other players? Or ones bought from NPCs?
AUDIOSERF
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/23/2017 09:03 AM CDT
High end items from players. Nowadays a large percentage of people are capped or close to it and 4x off the shelf gear is pretty much not used/pointless. I'd be surprised if many people except the rare true legit newbie player buy gear from NPCs.
ARCHIGEEK
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/23/2017 09:11 AM CDT
The answer right now at this moment is "some of each" with a strong trend towards more than before, in both cases. The main point though is that when silvers have less value, this is a bigger problem for those who buy and sell things with silvers than it is for those who don't. That should be your take away, not an exercise in statement parsing.
Kerl
Kerl
MAARIKAI
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/23/2017 10:30 AM CDT
>>I've said repeatedly that the problem is not for those who sell silvers for cash. I don't much care about that either. The problem is much worse for those who would rather pay silvers, but items are no longer available for silvers, because silvers are worthless. Those who buy and sell cor cash will continue to do so and will go about their merry way. It's people who like to hunt and earn a decent number of silvers and then spend them. Those are the ones who will be left holding the bag.
Kerl<<
Saving that perfect explanation from getting drowned out. Hope it's heard loud and clear.
Kerl<<
Saving that perfect explanation from getting drowned out. Hope it's heard loud and clear.
LEAFIARA
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/23/2017 01:07 PM CDT
Just gonna say what I've said elsewhere:
1 - Enhancive recharging for silvers being offered more frequently would help.
2 - Whenever GMs finish implementing post-cap goals, that could be another good spot to put silvers to use. Maybe those post-cap abilities are learned in the Adventurer's Guild Elite Branch or in a secret wing of Hearthstone and there could be a silver upkeep for membership, for new training, for tapping into powerful new magic, etc.
1 - Enhancive recharging for silvers being offered more frequently would help.
2 - Whenever GMs finish implementing post-cap goals, that could be another good spot to put silvers to use. Maybe those post-cap abilities are learned in the Adventurer's Guild Elite Branch or in a secret wing of Hearthstone and there could be a silver upkeep for membership, for new training, for tapping into powerful new magic, etc.
KANDOR
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/23/2017 02:57 PM CDT
>I've said repeatedly that the problem is not for those who sell silvers for cash. I don't much care about that either. The problem is much worse for those who would rather pay silvers, but items are no longer available for silvers, because silvers are worthless. Those who buy and sell cor cash will continue to do so and will go about their merry way. It's people who like to hunt and earn a decent number of silvers and then spend them. Those are the ones who will be left holding the bag.
If silvers can be sold for cash, and SimuCoins can be purchased with cash, then SimuCoins can be effectively purchased with silvers. It's not easy because you can't just redeem your silvers in-game, and selling them isn't officially sanctioned. More to the point, silvers have no intrinsic value. They are "printed" by the game, in massive quantities, without consideration of the long-term effect. Because of this, there is no point in trying to accept silvers as real currency. Players may pay for silvers at a market rate, but Simu cannot unless they, too, sell silvers for the cash they need. Unless the pool of available silver is reduced, and while silver can be farmed in such quantities, silver must eventually continue to lose value. I think most players understand this. Most of the inflation discussion is more around why can't there be big event bumps in the value as there were in the past, so that silver speculators can buy low and sell high. Unfortunately, as others have pointed out, many of the older players now treat the game and the time in it as an investment more than entertainment. While it's an admirable way to keep players coming back, in the long run this is dangerous, both to the players and to the company.
In theory, every silver represents one iota of someone's playing time, so the value of 1 silver comes from their subscription fee (F2P excluded). As I understand it, most of the silvers in the game originally appeared this way. However, silver isn't logged. It's not clear who earns it, who owns it, how much is transferred between players. This may work differently for scrip. Scrip also represents playing time, coming from an event, and it is clearer who earns and who owns it. I could be wrong about this, but as I understand it this makes scrip preferable to silver. Having a mechanism to buy scrip with silver might be good, but you still run into the "no intrinsic value" issue. Leaving scrip between events to be bought and sold on an aftermarket will eventually make all scrip just like silvers, and it causes the obscene prices in the high-end shops at the events. I appreciate that it allows casual players to trade/buy for scrip they can't earn in-game, but it's going to continue to compound the problem over time. Better to allow the casual players to trade within the event, and null out the scrip afterward.
It'd be great if everything was done with silvers, instead, but this hurts the company. I'll point out again that in many games now, you don't get any high-end items with the standard currency. Instead, there is a premium currency that is used to buy high-end items. You get one or two of the premium currency as a teaser, and maybe on occasion, but for any decent high-end items or upgrades you need to pay real money. I agree, however, that there should be useful things to spend silvers on -- enough that you never need to worry about having nothing to buy with it. I don't think that's where we are now. Making player shops more ubiquitous would help change this, both for buyers and sellers. People have made some other good suggestions. I just don't feel that high-end items should be one of them. The company should be a gatekeeper for high-end items, just as they are for character transfers. It should cost extra. Expectations have been set very high over time. Maybe it's not yesterday's game anymore, but I'd like to see Simu earning enough money to hire more staff and make some upgrades. How can we make that compatible with a game that's fun to play?
If silvers can be sold for cash, and SimuCoins can be purchased with cash, then SimuCoins can be effectively purchased with silvers. It's not easy because you can't just redeem your silvers in-game, and selling them isn't officially sanctioned. More to the point, silvers have no intrinsic value. They are "printed" by the game, in massive quantities, without consideration of the long-term effect. Because of this, there is no point in trying to accept silvers as real currency. Players may pay for silvers at a market rate, but Simu cannot unless they, too, sell silvers for the cash they need. Unless the pool of available silver is reduced, and while silver can be farmed in such quantities, silver must eventually continue to lose value. I think most players understand this. Most of the inflation discussion is more around why can't there be big event bumps in the value as there were in the past, so that silver speculators can buy low and sell high. Unfortunately, as others have pointed out, many of the older players now treat the game and the time in it as an investment more than entertainment. While it's an admirable way to keep players coming back, in the long run this is dangerous, both to the players and to the company.
In theory, every silver represents one iota of someone's playing time, so the value of 1 silver comes from their subscription fee (F2P excluded). As I understand it, most of the silvers in the game originally appeared this way. However, silver isn't logged. It's not clear who earns it, who owns it, how much is transferred between players. This may work differently for scrip. Scrip also represents playing time, coming from an event, and it is clearer who earns and who owns it. I could be wrong about this, but as I understand it this makes scrip preferable to silver. Having a mechanism to buy scrip with silver might be good, but you still run into the "no intrinsic value" issue. Leaving scrip between events to be bought and sold on an aftermarket will eventually make all scrip just like silvers, and it causes the obscene prices in the high-end shops at the events. I appreciate that it allows casual players to trade/buy for scrip they can't earn in-game, but it's going to continue to compound the problem over time. Better to allow the casual players to trade within the event, and null out the scrip afterward.
It'd be great if everything was done with silvers, instead, but this hurts the company. I'll point out again that in many games now, you don't get any high-end items with the standard currency. Instead, there is a premium currency that is used to buy high-end items. You get one or two of the premium currency as a teaser, and maybe on occasion, but for any decent high-end items or upgrades you need to pay real money. I agree, however, that there should be useful things to spend silvers on -- enough that you never need to worry about having nothing to buy with it. I don't think that's where we are now. Making player shops more ubiquitous would help change this, both for buyers and sellers. People have made some other good suggestions. I just don't feel that high-end items should be one of them. The company should be a gatekeeper for high-end items, just as they are for character transfers. It should cost extra. Expectations have been set very high over time. Maybe it's not yesterday's game anymore, but I'd like to see Simu earning enough money to hire more staff and make some upgrades. How can we make that compatible with a game that's fun to play?
CHIVERST
Re: Where oh where has our GSIV game gone?
08/24/2017 03:44 AM CDT
I've followed this thread with interest as I'm not a particular fan of the trend towards micro-transactions and changes to beloved pay events either. I do understand why it's becoming a necessary evil, however, and that it's not going away. The effects on the silver economy aside for a moment though, there's another aspect to this discussion that I'd like to throw into the mix.
Wyrom, you stated in an earlier post - sorry but I'm not wading back through to quote you directly - that there would be at least? 6 pay events a year. If these events are going to last for 2 weeks each time, which seems to be the norm, then this is where I have an issue.
As a HUGE advocate of the CHE and MHO system, I feel I need to point out that this will likely have an adverse effect on their ability to thrive - I hesitate to say survive because it feels a little overdramatic. We already struggle with dwindling attendance at events and a lack of general interest from the playerbase because we simply cannot compete with the "rewards" offered at GM-run and pay-to-enter events. Add to that the fact that we now have to compete for slots in the calendar to maximise our chances of attendance numbers that meet the minimum requirements and I fear we will see a further decline in regular player-run activities. In order to have events scheduled on the calendar and supported with props, raffles etc. (the only things that seem to draw the crowds), we must submit our requests at least a month in advance. It is so disheartening to have events planned out with considerable effort involved by the organisers and supporting GM, only then to see Duskruin overshadow it because it kills any chance we have of a successful turnout; I know from experience, I witnessed it myself last weekend.
If this is the way of things going forward, can I make a plea for some consideration to be given to:
1. Scheduling: please can you give enough advance warning of dates so that CHEs and MHOs can try to work around them.
2. Balance the effort put into pay events with some additional support to the Subscription side so that those of us who choose not to participate in Duskruin, Delirium Manor etc. - which you have rightly pointed out is our choice - feel the love too.
3. Consider new ideas that would promote, and ideally improve, the status of CHEs and MHOs in the general scheme of things. There is an interesting example currently being discussed in the MHO folder.
They are an amazing player resource that underpin a lot of the RP values some of us hold dear and I would hate to see them overlooked in the rush to bring in the $$$.
Rohese (flying the CHE/MHO banner)
>>You slay me woman! ~ Wyrom
https://gswiki.play.net/Rohese_Bayvel-Timsh'l
Wyrom, you stated in an earlier post - sorry but I'm not wading back through to quote you directly - that there would be at least? 6 pay events a year. If these events are going to last for 2 weeks each time, which seems to be the norm, then this is where I have an issue.
As a HUGE advocate of the CHE and MHO system, I feel I need to point out that this will likely have an adverse effect on their ability to thrive - I hesitate to say survive because it feels a little overdramatic. We already struggle with dwindling attendance at events and a lack of general interest from the playerbase because we simply cannot compete with the "rewards" offered at GM-run and pay-to-enter events. Add to that the fact that we now have to compete for slots in the calendar to maximise our chances of attendance numbers that meet the minimum requirements and I fear we will see a further decline in regular player-run activities. In order to have events scheduled on the calendar and supported with props, raffles etc. (the only things that seem to draw the crowds), we must submit our requests at least a month in advance. It is so disheartening to have events planned out with considerable effort involved by the organisers and supporting GM, only then to see Duskruin overshadow it because it kills any chance we have of a successful turnout; I know from experience, I witnessed it myself last weekend.
If this is the way of things going forward, can I make a plea for some consideration to be given to:
1. Scheduling: please can you give enough advance warning of dates so that CHEs and MHOs can try to work around them.
2. Balance the effort put into pay events with some additional support to the Subscription side so that those of us who choose not to participate in Duskruin, Delirium Manor etc. - which you have rightly pointed out is our choice - feel the love too.
3. Consider new ideas that would promote, and ideally improve, the status of CHEs and MHOs in the general scheme of things. There is an interesting example currently being discussed in the MHO folder.
They are an amazing player resource that underpin a lot of the RP values some of us hold dear and I would hate to see them overlooked in the rush to bring in the $$$.
Rohese (flying the CHE/MHO banner)
>>You slay me woman! ~ Wyrom
https://gswiki.play.net/Rohese_Bayvel-Timsh'l
