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>Lets bring in the changes now!
I'm going to so hurt you....
the loving wifey,
Weedie
"No dictator, no invader, can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against that power, governments and tyrants and armies, cannot stand."
MANNC1
PETERSONP1
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 01:45 PM CST
<<<<Currently, its hammeer the enter key to drop as many critters as I can so in a room with 75 level 50 beasts, ONE level 75 wizard cones them all in safety.-Khal
Isn't that why critters such as Hags were introduced into most invasions? To bounce cone?
~guarr's funk
<<<<GSS will be moving into it's final chapter this year.
Melissa
Isn't that why critters such as Hags were introduced into most invasions? To bounce cone?
~guarr's funk
<<<<GSS will be moving into it's final chapter this year.
Melissa
MAXMANJ
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 01:46 PM CST
<< "If a target is attacked by more than one attacker within a short period (less than 10 seconds), the target's defenses may be reduced. The amount of reduction in the target's defenses is based on the number of attackers, the level of the attackers compared to the defender, and the defender's skill in Multi-Opponent Combat...For every effective attacker beyond the first, the defender's effective stance is reduced by 25%, similar to the way that ambushing from hiding currently modifies a defender's effective stance. If the total reduction would go below 0 (full offensive stance), then the remainder percentage will be applied to the defender's offensive-stance Parry, Evade, and Block DS. It will not reduce those values below 0" >>
You know, I went back and re-read this and I think you're right. Even with a 4 on 4 situation if two attack one person there is a reduction. I think I no longer am as supportive of this.
Josh
You know, I went back and re-read this and I think you're right. Even with a 4 on 4 situation if two attack one person there is a reduction. I think I no longer am as supportive of this.
Josh
CLEWIS2592
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 01:51 PM CST
I really cannot add anything that has not already been said by other players, so I will just make sure my voice is heard for what it is worth. This is a horrible idea. I have played DR, if you want to do an engagement system, then do so, don't put forth a half baked system that is going to hurt the majority of your players. If ANYTHING, and you are insisting upon implementing this ridiculous system, you should reduce the number of trainings in this skill from 15/20 to 5/10. That is still an awful lot more than most of your player base already has. Let me tell you exactly what you are encouraging with this change. You are encouraging people to use multi accounts to hunt. Now, I have a few accounts, and I admit I do get spells from them etc, but what you are encouraging is people to sign on 3 or 4 characters and hunt. You will not force people to hunt together if they do not want to, and you will not slow down those hell bent on advancing at warp speed. This will only hurt the casual player who just wants to spend a couple hours a day playing and hunting. You are making going for a hunt a major ordeal, versus something fun.
I guess that is more than I was going to say, but I hope you do take it into consideration. I can't say that any other time I have voiced my opinion that it was actually heard by the powers that be, but I hope you do listen this time.
Jade's player
~Jade emits a deep throaty purr that sounds remarkably like a contented panther cub.~
I guess that is more than I was going to say, but I hope you do take it into consideration. I can't say that any other time I have voiced my opinion that it was actually heard by the powers that be, but I hope you do listen this time.
Jade's player
~Jade emits a deep throaty purr that sounds remarkably like a contented panther cub.~
BOGARRAGOB
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 01:51 PM CST
No, Kitrina posted that players are assigned 1 point each and creatures at +/- 10 levels are assigned 1 point each. She also said that when the number of creature points reaches 2-1 you see the DS pushdown. 1 person will see it with 2 creatures, 2 people will see it with 4 because it rounds. It is also based on actuall attacks within a 10 second period, so if those 4 creatures don't all attack the same person in that period, no one will see a pushdown.
Not quite Josh, you should re-read the annoucment.
2 people will see it with 2 creatures, its just there is two targets for those creatures to pick. So you have a better chance.
Here's parts from the annoucment:
>>Attackers within +/- 10 levels of the defender are considered one attacker. Attackers more than 10 levels below the defender are treated as half of an attacker. Attackers more than 10 levels above the defender are treated as 1.5 attackers. The total number of attackers is tallied and rounded to determine how many effective attackers are engaging the defender. (Even if an attacker is 20 levels higher than the defender, no multi-attacker penalty applies to the defender unless there is another attacker.)
>>Q. How can I avoid being beat up by creatures?
A. There are many ways to offset the potential for multiple attackers beating up your character. These include, 1) training in Multi-Opponent Combat, 2) hunting with a buddy, which will reduce the chances of enemies taking all of their attacks out on you, 3) retreating to another room so you can fight where you are not outnumbered, and 4) doing something to stop the attackers from attacking (e-wave, Lullabye, hitting one hard enough to stun it, etc.). No defenses are lost just for a potential attacker being present in the room. Attackers are only considered "engaged" if they physically attack the defender.
So as you see, even if there are 5 people in the room, and 5 critters. If those 5 creatures all decide to attack you instead of splitting their attack on the 4 other people, you will feel the full effects of it.
The only thing a group does is 2) hunting with a buddy, which will reduce the chances of enemies taking all of their attacks out on you.
You do not get a bonus just for being in a group. Group lowers your chance of getting hit, but it does not lower your penalty from the new MOC changes, if you happen to get attack by two creatures.
So as you see you fail to understand the change, thus anything you make on the subject until you understand it, is highly flawed...
~Jeff
Why do people look at the name ascendent, and say the first syllable, or part of it makes me look like something? As hardly means what the try to make it be, and only proves their level of maturity is low, and besides the first part is ascend
Not quite Josh, you should re-read the annoucment.
2 people will see it with 2 creatures, its just there is two targets for those creatures to pick. So you have a better chance.
Here's parts from the annoucment:
>>Attackers within +/- 10 levels of the defender are considered one attacker. Attackers more than 10 levels below the defender are treated as half of an attacker. Attackers more than 10 levels above the defender are treated as 1.5 attackers. The total number of attackers is tallied and rounded to determine how many effective attackers are engaging the defender. (Even if an attacker is 20 levels higher than the defender, no multi-attacker penalty applies to the defender unless there is another attacker.)
>>Q. How can I avoid being beat up by creatures?
A. There are many ways to offset the potential for multiple attackers beating up your character. These include, 1) training in Multi-Opponent Combat, 2) hunting with a buddy, which will reduce the chances of enemies taking all of their attacks out on you, 3) retreating to another room so you can fight where you are not outnumbered, and 4) doing something to stop the attackers from attacking (e-wave, Lullabye, hitting one hard enough to stun it, etc.). No defenses are lost just for a potential attacker being present in the room. Attackers are only considered "engaged" if they physically attack the defender.
So as you see, even if there are 5 people in the room, and 5 critters. If those 5 creatures all decide to attack you instead of splitting their attack on the 4 other people, you will feel the full effects of it.
The only thing a group does is 2) hunting with a buddy, which will reduce the chances of enemies taking all of their attacks out on you.
You do not get a bonus just for being in a group. Group lowers your chance of getting hit, but it does not lower your penalty from the new MOC changes, if you happen to get attack by two creatures.
So as you see you fail to understand the change, thus anything you make on the subject until you understand it, is highly flawed...
~Jeff
Why do people look at the name ascendent, and say the first syllable, or part of it makes me look like something? As hardly means what the try to make it be, and only proves their level of maturity is low, and besides the first part is ascend
BOGARRAGOB
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 01:54 PM CST
You know, I went back and re-read this and I think you're right. Even with a 4 on 4 situation if two attack one person there is a reduction. I think I no longer am as supportive of this.
Josh
Good to see you re-read it as you were wrong in your understanding. Oh and Just to be clear I didn't want to be condescending in my last post, if I was forgive me.
If it was the way you thought it was, then I would be more in favor of it going in, as it lowers the impact alot by simply finding a group. But its not, and yeah its impact is just as bad.
~Jeff
Why do people look at the name ascendent, and say the first syllable, or part of it makes me look like something? As hardly means what the try to make it be, and only proves their level of maturity is low, and besides the first part is ascend
Josh
Good to see you re-read it as you were wrong in your understanding. Oh and Just to be clear I didn't want to be condescending in my last post, if I was forgive me.
If it was the way you thought it was, then I would be more in favor of it going in, as it lowers the impact alot by simply finding a group. But its not, and yeah its impact is just as bad.
~Jeff
Why do people look at the name ascendent, and say the first syllable, or part of it makes me look like something? As hardly means what the try to make it be, and only proves their level of maturity is low, and besides the first part is ascend
LORDCARANORN
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 01:55 PM CST
Okay, this comes as a shock, no other word for it.
I have long been in favour of getting a real system using MoC as it was always intended. I was really looking forward to it too.
But having that sytem rolled in on a few hours notice is pure and simple murder, obviously of characters not players but still murder. I don't think I even have a single character set up to defend him/herself under this system. With some forewarning I could probably have made some of them ready, but obviously at a seriou cost to other skills.
But that's not enough, not only was this system rolled in without warning (it will not affect any of my characters for a week, but that's not enough time to migrate skills etc.), it also requires raher extreme skill levels. I was always expecting MoC to require something like O.5x level training to face something like 5 critters at once (relatively reasonable to stand there, none of my characters would fight under the situation). But this current system requires massive training, particularly at low levels when defenses are already pretty weak. It doesn't even compare skill to level (35 ranks at cap have the exact same value as 35 ranks at 16th level).
So I will ask these changes.
1) Cancel the immediate introduction of this system.
2) Give every character a free fixskill the day the system is rolled in.
3) Make the skill rank/level dependend.
4) Make it so that facing 3 foes is affordable for most people. But obviously increasing cost per critter (for instance 0.2x for 2 critters, 0.3x for 3, 0.45x for 4, 0.68x for 5, 1x for 6, 1.52x for 7, 2x for 8 (all but the last a multiplication of the previous by 1.5)).
5) Obviously tweak invasions and such accordingly, but I expect that's planned anyhow and I do look forward to that.
In general, pull the current project. Take a breatehr and rethink it all in a way our characters can actually survive.
Marc aka Caran... ministerialis
P.S.: Sorry I haven't read more then two dozen of the previous posts.
I have long been in favour of getting a real system using MoC as it was always intended. I was really looking forward to it too.
But having that sytem rolled in on a few hours notice is pure and simple murder, obviously of characters not players but still murder. I don't think I even have a single character set up to defend him/herself under this system. With some forewarning I could probably have made some of them ready, but obviously at a seriou cost to other skills.
But that's not enough, not only was this system rolled in without warning (it will not affect any of my characters for a week, but that's not enough time to migrate skills etc.), it also requires raher extreme skill levels. I was always expecting MoC to require something like O.5x level training to face something like 5 critters at once (relatively reasonable to stand there, none of my characters would fight under the situation). But this current system requires massive training, particularly at low levels when defenses are already pretty weak. It doesn't even compare skill to level (35 ranks at cap have the exact same value as 35 ranks at 16th level).
So I will ask these changes.
1) Cancel the immediate introduction of this system.
2) Give every character a free fixskill the day the system is rolled in.
3) Make the skill rank/level dependend.
4) Make it so that facing 3 foes is affordable for most people. But obviously increasing cost per critter (for instance 0.2x for 2 critters, 0.3x for 3, 0.45x for 4, 0.68x for 5, 1x for 6, 1.52x for 7, 2x for 8 (all but the last a multiplication of the previous by 1.5)).
5) Obviously tweak invasions and such accordingly, but I expect that's planned anyhow and I do look forward to that.
In general, pull the current project. Take a breatehr and rethink it all in a way our characters can actually survive.
Marc aka Caran... ministerialis
P.S.: Sorry I haven't read more then two dozen of the previous posts.
MAXMANJ
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 02:07 PM CST
<< Not quite Josh, you should re-read the annoucment.
2 people will see it with 2 creatures, its just there is two targets for those creatures to pick. So you have a better chance. >>
Yep. Already saw that and retracted my stance on this. I still maintain that people can and should move out of a swarm rather than implode the area. As for fighting a swarm however, I think the system is poor and should be more like what I initially thought was right.
Josh
2 people will see it with 2 creatures, its just there is two targets for those creatures to pick. So you have a better chance. >>
Yep. Already saw that and retracted my stance on this. I still maintain that people can and should move out of a swarm rather than implode the area. As for fighting a swarm however, I think the system is poor and should be more like what I initially thought was right.
Josh
CARABELE
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 02:26 PM CST
>There are some places where even if your the only person in the area its not unusual to see 3 to 7 creature swarms. Pinefar, thurfels cellar.. im sure theres more but thats where i know for certain about. Fighting just 2 at once is a rarity in pinefar with glacies sliding all over the place.<
Yup. The area right before the boulder in the tundra of Pinefar is infamous for critters "stacking up" in there. Even if you are just running through the area to get over the boulders, it's hell there.
As for Thurfel's Cellar, geeze that area was always the height of dangerous because of the huge swarms. Now it will just be a suicide run.
Yup. The area right before the boulder in the tundra of Pinefar is infamous for critters "stacking up" in there. Even if you are just running through the area to get over the boulders, it's hell there.
As for Thurfel's Cellar, geeze that area was always the height of dangerous because of the huge swarms. Now it will just be a suicide run.
SORUS
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 02:31 PM CST
>I mean a 3 soft-second solution to the problem, as per E-waves, Quakes, mass holdings, mass calms, your new Nature's Touch-- even the ability to hide is a way to handle a swarm.
Who has a mass holding spell? You named two ranger spells (mass calm, nature's touch) but the rest of the things you mentioned are Elemental in nature. Face it, spiritual casters (clerics and empaths) lack swarm mangagment spells. They've been asked for, and have been denied, repeatedly. Tell us, oh guru of spell combat wisdom, what the hell we are supposed to do?
-- Nick, Aasterinian's Taskmaster
There is no innocence, only degrees of guilt.
Who has a mass holding spell? You named two ranger spells (mass calm, nature's touch) but the rest of the things you mentioned are Elemental in nature. Face it, spiritual casters (clerics and empaths) lack swarm mangagment spells. They've been asked for, and have been denied, repeatedly. Tell us, oh guru of spell combat wisdom, what the hell we are supposed to do?
-- Nick, Aasterinian's Taskmaster
There is no innocence, only degrees of guilt.
LORDOMENS
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 02:45 PM CST
That is definitely passed my bed time, but I'll hunt with you at a different time!
~Kitrina
I dont know who you are in game. So if you see me grab me. I'm always in the Dais. Or the Sentinels.
I mainly stick to the duct's or the west woods, anything over scouts is a bit of a reach, and after this change, I wont be reaching that far anymore.
Omens.
We trained him wrong on purpose. You know, As a joke.
~Kitrina
I dont know who you are in game. So if you see me grab me. I'm always in the Dais. Or the Sentinels.
I mainly stick to the duct's or the west woods, anything over scouts is a bit of a reach, and after this change, I wont be reaching that far anymore.
Omens.
We trained him wrong on purpose. You know, As a joke.
CLINTMIRE
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 02:58 PM CST
>I'm noticing a trend here. The few people not opposed to this are warriors. The rest of us are trying to figure out what Wardens smoking and if he's willing to share. It'll help deaden the pain of multiple decays.
One reason you do not hear many warriors or rogues bitching is because of years they have had to cull thier quarry out and take them on one at a time. Most warriors and rogues could never handle a swarm. This change effects very little because they will still have to take on one critter at a time.
Isle Goatherder
One reason you do not hear many warriors or rogues bitching is because of years they have had to cull thier quarry out and take them on one at a time. Most warriors and rogues could never handle a swarm. This change effects very little because they will still have to take on one critter at a time.
Isle Goatherder
TARTELLB
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 02:58 PM CST
Okay, I got the ranting and raving out of my system.
But, for clarifications sake, I still think this system is one of the stupidest and idiotic systems ever to come down the Simu pipeline.
And that's saying a lot.
Now...
SUGGESTION
Give EVERY pure a spell on their list (not a new spell... add this effect to an existing spell) that will surround them in something that will slightly negate this MoC penalty.
For Sorcerers, this could be airwall and a self-cast version of maelstrom.
For Wizards, this could be a self-cast version of sandstorm.
For clerics, it could be vortex of swirling spiritual energy.
For empaths, it could be... umm... a vortex of gaudy clothing.
Do the same thing for semi's.
For rangers, it could be a self-cast version of call swarm, and thorny barrier should definitely also help.
For bards, add the effect to their mirror song.
Squares have redux and thick armor, they don't need anything.
.
You obviously cannot expect pures (and semis to a lesser degree) to actually train in MoC. That's a square skill, it's always been a square skill. The cost is absurdly high for pures, and even at a reduced cost, you must realize that pures have an insane amount of crap to train in, what with lores, harness power, and all those other training point toilets you chucked at us with GSIV. We simply cannot afford to train in MoC. I'm starving for points as is, and I can't even train in everything I want to.
.
Honestly... I'm flabbergasted. I don't understand how this system was ever viewed as a good idea. How does this make the game more fun? Hunting is boring enough as it is. Maneuver attacks simply added frustration (nobody likes cheap deaths.) This system will pile even further frustration on top of that.
I'm all for realism. I'm all for challenge. But you cannot have realism in one thing while forgoing it entirely in another. As other people have constantly stated, pures are not supposed to be up-close fighters. If this game were as realistic as you're trying to make it, pures would never BE in the position to get swung at. We'd pick apart our target before they even reached us.
And for everyone touting the "use disabling spells!" and "hunt in a group!" argument.
No.
You're wrong.
But, for clarifications sake, I still think this system is one of the stupidest and idiotic systems ever to come down the Simu pipeline.
And that's saying a lot.
Now...
SUGGESTION
Give EVERY pure a spell on their list (not a new spell... add this effect to an existing spell) that will surround them in something that will slightly negate this MoC penalty.
For Sorcerers, this could be airwall and a self-cast version of maelstrom.
For Wizards, this could be a self-cast version of sandstorm.
For clerics, it could be vortex of swirling spiritual energy.
For empaths, it could be... umm... a vortex of gaudy clothing.
Do the same thing for semi's.
For rangers, it could be a self-cast version of call swarm, and thorny barrier should definitely also help.
For bards, add the effect to their mirror song.
Squares have redux and thick armor, they don't need anything.
.
You obviously cannot expect pures (and semis to a lesser degree) to actually train in MoC. That's a square skill, it's always been a square skill. The cost is absurdly high for pures, and even at a reduced cost, you must realize that pures have an insane amount of crap to train in, what with lores, harness power, and all those other training point toilets you chucked at us with GSIV. We simply cannot afford to train in MoC. I'm starving for points as is, and I can't even train in everything I want to.
.
Honestly... I'm flabbergasted. I don't understand how this system was ever viewed as a good idea. How does this make the game more fun? Hunting is boring enough as it is. Maneuver attacks simply added frustration (nobody likes cheap deaths.) This system will pile even further frustration on top of that.
I'm all for realism. I'm all for challenge. But you cannot have realism in one thing while forgoing it entirely in another. As other people have constantly stated, pures are not supposed to be up-close fighters. If this game were as realistic as you're trying to make it, pures would never BE in the position to get swung at. We'd pick apart our target before they even reached us.
And for everyone touting the "use disabling spells!" and "hunt in a group!" argument.
No.
You're wrong.
MDB7282
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 03:11 PM CST
--Its' insane at what rank the benefits start for MOC training and worse for when the next benefit rank kicks in. This totally waxes pures, semi's and hell even rogues. My warriors barely single in MOC due to the high cost of the skill even for them.--
I for once agree with Jim. First off this idea was originally stated as revolving around a bare minimum of 5 ranks, now you have ludacrous costs as in 15 and 20? Is MOC going to be decreased in costs? It really makes no sense since GS4 rolled in I have been getting up to 5 ranks of MOC, for the specific reason of countering this release. Which as we were told would be enough for a couple of critters.
Oh and do you plan on completely redesigning hunting areas with this in mind? Here let me list a few for you..
Stronghold
Blighted Forest
Giant Rats
Kobolds
Roltons
Krolvin Warfs
Tegu's/Hunter Trolls
Gryphons/Yeti's
Roa'ters
Hell least once a hunt I see more than 1 critter in a room in all of these places, K Thnx.
-Mike/Galesmight AIM: Galesmight
Long live the guilds.
-if life's not beautiful without the pain well i'd just rather never ever even see beauty again well as life gets longer awful feels softer and it feels pretty soft to me--
-Modest Mouse
I for once agree with Jim. First off this idea was originally stated as revolving around a bare minimum of 5 ranks, now you have ludacrous costs as in 15 and 20? Is MOC going to be decreased in costs? It really makes no sense since GS4 rolled in I have been getting up to 5 ranks of MOC, for the specific reason of countering this release. Which as we were told would be enough for a couple of critters.
Oh and do you plan on completely redesigning hunting areas with this in mind? Here let me list a few for you..
Stronghold
Blighted Forest
Giant Rats
Kobolds
Roltons
Krolvin Warfs
Tegu's/Hunter Trolls
Gryphons/Yeti's
Roa'ters
Hell least once a hunt I see more than 1 critter in a room in all of these places, K Thnx.
-Mike/Galesmight AIM: Galesmight
Long live the guilds.
-if life's not beautiful without the pain well i'd just rather never ever even see beauty again well as life gets longer awful feels softer and it feels pretty soft to me--
-Modest Mouse
KRAKII
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 03:11 PM CST
"No, Kitrina posted that players are assigned 1 point each and creatures at +/- 10 levels are assigned 1 point each. She also said that when the number of creature points reaches 2-1 you see the DS pushdown." -- Josh
Errr... the post that I read didn't say anything at all about a ratio (such as the 2:1 that you're talking about).
What I read was, "For every effective attacker beyond the first, the defender's effective stance is reduced by 25%".
.
.
Now, I did read where creatures that are <my level minus 11> or lower only count as half-creatures, so there four of them would be required before I saw that first -25%.
Could that be what you're talking about?
Errr... the post that I read didn't say anything at all about a ratio (such as the 2:1 that you're talking about).
What I read was, "For every effective attacker beyond the first, the defender's effective stance is reduced by 25%".
.
.
Now, I did read where creatures that are <my level minus 11> or lower only count as half-creatures, so there four of them would be required before I saw that first -25%.
Could that be what you're talking about?
CLINTMIRE
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 03:16 PM CST
>Squares have redux and thick armor, they don't need anything.
Warriors have redux and thick armor.
Rogues have some redux and most wear light armor now (and more will when the hiding and ambushing changess take place.)
I hate rogues being classified as squares.
Isle Goatherder
Warriors have redux and thick armor.
Rogues have some redux and most wear light armor now (and more will when the hiding and ambushing changess take place.)
I hate rogues being classified as squares.
Isle Goatherder
MDB7282
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 03:18 PM CST
Oh BTW I will also take a FIXSKILL so that I can unlearn my MOC ranks if the costs remain the same. K, THNX.
-Mike/Galesmight AIM: Galesmight
Long live the guilds.
-if life's not beautiful without the pain well i'd just rather never ever even see beauty again well as life gets longer awful feels softer and it feels pretty soft to me--
-Modest Mouse
-Mike/Galesmight AIM: Galesmight
Long live the guilds.
-if life's not beautiful without the pain well i'd just rather never ever even see beauty again well as life gets longer awful feels softer and it feels pretty soft to me--
-Modest Mouse
TARTELLB
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 03:19 PM CST
<<I hate rogues being classified as squares.>>
Sorry, you're right. I forgot about those armor changes for rogues.
But, then again, rogues are the best hiders in the game.
But, hell, throw'em a bone and give them enhanced evade chances.
Sorry, you're right. I forgot about those armor changes for rogues.
But, then again, rogues are the best hiders in the game.
But, hell, throw'em a bone and give them enhanced evade chances.
KRAKII
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 03:20 PM CST
"So as you see, even if there are 5 people in the room, and 5 critters. If those 5 creatures all decide to attack you instead of splitting their attack on the 4 other people, you will feel the full effects of it." -- Jeff
.
Kitrina, Jeff re-states the situation that I was trying to describe very well. What I'd like to know--and I suspect others would, too--is this:
When, in his example, all five of the creatures in the room swing at me... what DS do I get against them?
.
Now, since it should not be possible for a creature to know before it swings that another creature is going to swing at the same target, I'm going to assume
a) sequential swings (in very quick order, such as Celtar described) and
b) each creature only gets the benefit for the creatures that swung before it did, and
c) that I am cowering back in Defensive stance:
Creature 1, 100% DS
one second passes
Creature 2, 75% DS
one second passes
Creature 3, 50% DS
one second passes
Creature 4, 25% DS
one second passes
Creature 5, 0% DS
So in five seconds, I see five different swings, with radically decreasing DS.
.
Is this accurate?
.
.
.
.
Lastly, to all the nervous folks out there: recall that Kitrina's announcement said that E/B/P DS would be reduced, if there were any additional stance reductions required.
Your percentage chance of an outright Evasion, Block, or Parry should remain unchanged (according to what was posted; whether it was coded that way or not remains to be seen).
.
Kitrina, a clarification on EBP (not DS): are your percentage chances when subject to MultiFoe Penalties based on your set stance [in my example above, "Defensive"] or on your perceived stance [in my example above, depending on which critter, anywhere from 100 to 75 to 50 to 25 to 0]?
.
Kitrina, Jeff re-states the situation that I was trying to describe very well. What I'd like to know--and I suspect others would, too--is this:
When, in his example, all five of the creatures in the room swing at me... what DS do I get against them?
.
Now, since it should not be possible for a creature to know before it swings that another creature is going to swing at the same target, I'm going to assume
a) sequential swings (in very quick order, such as Celtar described) and
b) each creature only gets the benefit for the creatures that swung before it did, and
c) that I am cowering back in Defensive stance:
Creature 1, 100% DS
one second passes
Creature 2, 75% DS
one second passes
Creature 3, 50% DS
one second passes
Creature 4, 25% DS
one second passes
Creature 5, 0% DS
So in five seconds, I see five different swings, with radically decreasing DS.
.
Is this accurate?
.
.
.
.
Lastly, to all the nervous folks out there: recall that Kitrina's announcement said that E/B/P DS would be reduced, if there were any additional stance reductions required.
Your percentage chance of an outright Evasion, Block, or Parry should remain unchanged (according to what was posted; whether it was coded that way or not remains to be seen).
.
Kitrina, a clarification on EBP (not DS): are your percentage chances when subject to MultiFoe Penalties based on your set stance [in my example above, "Defensive"] or on your perceived stance [in my example above, depending on which critter, anywhere from 100 to 75 to 50 to 25 to 0]?
FIZZAN
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 03:25 PM CST
<<Face it, spiritual casters (clerics and empaths) lack swarm mangagment spells. They've been asked for, and have been denied, repeatedly. Tell us, oh guru of spell combat wisdom, what the hell we are supposed to do?
-- Nick>>
Take a deep breath, first.
Second, read a few more posts and see where I say "poor clerics and empaths", who I agree are suffering the most from this system.
Third, when compared with warriors in the same problem, up until the addition of the MoC nonsense, your situation is laughably easy compared to someone who suffers hard RT's for every last one of their activities.
And to get nit-picky and satisfy a curiosity, I thought there was some mass clerical attack spell these days-- Divine Wrath, is it?
Lastly, who are you again? I thought I was talking to Ody about warriors, suddenly I'm a self-proclaimed spell master... ::shrugs:: Confused.
--Fizzan's Player
-- Nick>>
Take a deep breath, first.
Second, read a few more posts and see where I say "poor clerics and empaths", who I agree are suffering the most from this system.
Third, when compared with warriors in the same problem, up until the addition of the MoC nonsense, your situation is laughably easy compared to someone who suffers hard RT's for every last one of their activities.
And to get nit-picky and satisfy a curiosity, I thought there was some mass clerical attack spell these days-- Divine Wrath, is it?
Lastly, who are you again? I thought I was talking to Ody about warriors, suddenly I'm a self-proclaimed spell master... ::shrugs:: Confused.
--Fizzan's Player
TSORAN
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 03:29 PM CST
| ><<Face it, spiritual casters (clerics and empaths) lack swarm mangagment spells. They've been asked for, and have been denied, repeatedly. Tell us, oh guru of spell combat wisdom, what the hell we are supposed to do? |
On the plus side, empaths and clerics will have a field day picking up the pieces of everyone else who is getting the crap kicked out of them. ;)
--Tsoran
Koldeen's shop (Cool Stuff!) http://www.playershops.com/Koldeen
Erindril's shop (Enchanted gear) http://www.playershops.com/Erindril
http://www.tsoran.com/
tsoran@tsoran.com
AIM: GSTsoran
MDB7282
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 03:31 PM CST
Oh, and also some things to check out when the system goes live.
1. Swarms around dead bodies.
My wouldn't that be fun to have ten folks go on every rescue.
2. Swarms when more folks are in the area
At least make sure that they don't stick together as they often do in current game mechanics.
Basically, y'kno get rid of swarms. It's fun spending an hour trying to fry.
-Mike/Galesmight AIM: Galesmight
Long live the guilds.
-if life's not beautiful without the pain well i'd just rather never ever even see beauty again well as life gets longer awful feels softer and it feels pretty soft to me--
-Modest Mouse
1. Swarms around dead bodies.
My wouldn't that be fun to have ten folks go on every rescue.
2. Swarms when more folks are in the area
At least make sure that they don't stick together as they often do in current game mechanics.
Basically, y'kno get rid of swarms. It's fun spending an hour trying to fry.
-Mike/Galesmight AIM: Galesmight
Long live the guilds.
-if life's not beautiful without the pain well i'd just rather never ever even see beauty again well as life gets longer awful feels softer and it feels pretty soft to me--
-Modest Mouse
KEEFA
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 03:31 PM CST
>>On the plus side, empaths and clerics will have a field day picking up the pieces of everyone else who is getting the crap kicked out of them. ;)<<
It's about time they took the initiative to get those silly empaths back in town where they belong! ::ducks and runs::
Kithus Norrak Faendryl and his dragon
A kobold points at you and yells, "Mine! Chasin!"
blink
You blink.
It's about time they took the initiative to get those silly empaths back in town where they belong! ::ducks and runs::
Kithus Norrak Faendryl and his dragon
A kobold points at you and yells, "Mine! Chasin!"
blink
You blink.
MANNC1
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 03:35 PM CST
>Lastly, who are you again? I thought I was talking to Ody about warriors, suddenly I'm a self-proclaimed spell master... ::shrugs:: Confused.
You are Master of all you survey, Fiz. :)
Just don't be doin' any surveying at the feet of a construct, k? wink
Will Rangers get the ability to have our companions now drag our own dead bodies? Since there will be far fewer people now willing to risk their own lives to come get us when we croak, I think that would be a good skill for our companions to have.
Odysia
"No dictator, no invader, can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against that power, governments and tyrants and armies, cannot stand."
You are Master of all you survey, Fiz. :)
Just don't be doin' any surveying at the feet of a construct, k? wink
Will Rangers get the ability to have our companions now drag our own dead bodies? Since there will be far fewer people now willing to risk their own lives to come get us when we croak, I think that would be a good skill for our companions to have.
Odysia
"No dictator, no invader, can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against that power, governments and tyrants and armies, cannot stand."
FIZZAN
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 04:02 PM CST
<<Will Rangers get the ability to have our companions now drag our own dead bodies? Since there will be far fewer people now willing to risk their own lives to come get us when we croak, I think that would be a good skill for our companions to have.
Odysia>>
I'd like to point out the fact that I will rescue you from any swarm and expect you to do the same for me. So ha!
::cackles::
--Fizzan's Player
Odysia>>
I'd like to point out the fact that I will rescue you from any swarm and expect you to do the same for me. So ha!
::cackles::
--Fizzan's Player
ETANNIDOMHNAILL
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 04:16 PM CST
<<On the plus side, empaths and clerics will have a field day picking up the pieces of everyone else who is getting the crap kicked out of them. ;)>>
You say that like we'd all enjoy that.
<<It's about time they took the initiative to get those silly empaths back in town where they belong! ::ducks and runs::>>
Someone wants to get hurt, doesn't he?
Nilandia
Nilandia's GS4 Info Repository: http://www.geocities.com/ladynilandia
AIM: Lady Nilandia
You say that like we'd all enjoy that.
<<It's about time they took the initiative to get those silly empaths back in town where they belong! ::ducks and runs::>>
Someone wants to get hurt, doesn't he?
Nilandia
Nilandia's GS4 Info Repository: http://www.geocities.com/ladynilandia
AIM: Lady Nilandia
CELTARLOMION
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 04:17 PM CST
On the plus side, empaths and clerics will have a field day picking up the pieces of everyone else who is getting the crap kicked out of them. ;)
--Tsoran <--
Yeah but can you imagine what happens to a fogging cleric/empath now on a rescue? heh. I think that locates before fogging are about to increase alot. To many foggers tend to blindly fog in, this should change I'm betting.
Jim
--Tsoran <--
Yeah but can you imagine what happens to a fogging cleric/empath now on a rescue? heh. I think that locates before fogging are about to increase alot. To many foggers tend to blindly fog in, this should change I'm betting.
Jim
CELTARLOMION
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 04:21 PM CST
Warden just posted this a few cat's up...
Jim
GS4-WARDEN
Ignore Author
Email Author
Re: True MoC: concerns and questions. ? on 11/30/2004 5:05:00 PM 734
Reply
1. Do dead creatures count as attackers? [GREDGEWIZ]
Yes. If you are fighting a creature that has attacked you and you kill it, you are still considered to have been engaged with that creature for a few seconds.
2. Does a failed swing ('clean miss'...) count? [UTGARHOTH]
Yes.
3. Does an EBPed swing count? [Drumpy]
Yes.
4. Do prone/wounded creatures count as attackers? [Somebody]
Prone creatures count half their normal amount. Wounds on the creature do not reduce their count unless they are reducing their stance in response to their wounds (see below).
5. Does the stance of the attacker matter? [Somebody else]
Yes. The attacker's value is scaled based on their stance. An attacker in defensive stance is completely disregarded as an additional attacker.
6. If I move to another room, do I count as completely disengaging? [Somebody third!]
No, such a design would be too easily abused. We will be enhancing the PEER verb to allow players to look into adjacent rooms in hunting areas, though, to help allow players to pick their fights. (PEERing into adjacent rooms is currently only possible in the Rift, in town areas, and rooms that are specifically designed to allow it.)
Warden
Jim
GS4-WARDEN
Ignore Author
Email Author
Re: True MoC: concerns and questions. ? on 11/30/2004 5:05:00 PM 734
Reply
1. Do dead creatures count as attackers? [GREDGEWIZ]
Yes. If you are fighting a creature that has attacked you and you kill it, you are still considered to have been engaged with that creature for a few seconds.
2. Does a failed swing ('clean miss'...) count? [UTGARHOTH]
Yes.
3. Does an EBPed swing count? [Drumpy]
Yes.
4. Do prone/wounded creatures count as attackers? [Somebody]
Prone creatures count half their normal amount. Wounds on the creature do not reduce their count unless they are reducing their stance in response to their wounds (see below).
5. Does the stance of the attacker matter? [Somebody else]
Yes. The attacker's value is scaled based on their stance. An attacker in defensive stance is completely disregarded as an additional attacker.
6. If I move to another room, do I count as completely disengaging? [Somebody third!]
No, such a design would be too easily abused. We will be enhancing the PEER verb to allow players to look into adjacent rooms in hunting areas, though, to help allow players to pick their fights. (PEERing into adjacent rooms is currently only possible in the Rift, in town areas, and rooms that are specifically designed to allow it.)
Warden
BOGARRAGOB
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 04:29 PM CST
>>No, such a design would be too easily abused. We will be enhancing the PEER verb to allow players to look into adjacent rooms in hunting areas, though, to help allow players to pick their fights. (PEERing into adjacent rooms is currently only possible in the Rift, in town areas, and rooms that are specifically designed to allow it.)
So dead things fight back and from multiple rooms? wow cool, why can't I be like critters...
Even retreating will be a hard thing to do. You get hit five times while trying to retreat and bam your dead. Hmmm I guess the safest and surest bet is to just set a gold ring and everytime 2 or more creatures enter the room ring back to safety.
If it can be too easily abused, then maybe thats saying that the system is flawed. As retreating should always be an option, and last time I checked If I'm running my arse off, I'm not engaged in combat.
The system is not set up for engament. Any attempt to do it half way is horribly flawed. This is a half way attempt.
~Jeff
Why do people look at the name ascendent, and say the first syllable, or part of it makes me look like something? As hardly means what the try to make it be, and only proves their level of maturity is low, and besides the first part is ascend
So dead things fight back and from multiple rooms? wow cool, why can't I be like critters...
Even retreating will be a hard thing to do. You get hit five times while trying to retreat and bam your dead. Hmmm I guess the safest and surest bet is to just set a gold ring and everytime 2 or more creatures enter the room ring back to safety.
If it can be too easily abused, then maybe thats saying that the system is flawed. As retreating should always be an option, and last time I checked If I'm running my arse off, I'm not engaged in combat.
The system is not set up for engament. Any attempt to do it half way is horribly flawed. This is a half way attempt.
~Jeff
Why do people look at the name ascendent, and say the first syllable, or part of it makes me look like something? As hardly means what the try to make it be, and only proves their level of maturity is low, and besides the first part is ascend
FOREVERLOST
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 04:35 PM CST
I have two characters that train in MoC, they do because it fits them as characters. both are warrior's and both hunt efectively and i am not really worried about them. They are also characters i rarely play. I mention this because i think it is important to note something, My other characters do not train in MoC because it does not fit them, and basically SIMU has offered me this choice for my main.
"Train in something your character would not train in and have a better chance to live at a very high cost, lose some very important skills i have to migrate the points to do so, basically train in it for the mechanics not the IC reason OR don't train in it and likely die"
Now with that said, the system DOES make sense, if my character does not train to fight off more than one critter at a time, then he should not fight as well against more than one critter, pretty simple logic. However, My character does not, and will not ever group hunt, he is a jerk and an unliked outcast and prefers it that way.
He is also a sniper, so here is a question that should be looked into. If critters can have a range based system, why can't characters? For example Raptors in Gyldmar fly around, my Rogue hides they sniff him out and attack, he goes back into hiding, TRIES to attack them but they are out of range, the messaging is similiar to this "The raptor is out of range, maybe you should try casting or throwing something at it"
So basically, for pures and bow users i would suggest trying to find a way to incrperate range, i know it has been brought up before, i also know it would be very tough to do, but now your forcing the need for such a system. SIMU should never make a skill required in order for the average person to go hunt. And before all you people who love to point out that it isn't required, go hunt alone and get jumped by four critters...or better yet take a trip from one town to another and get jumped by three critters in passing and tell me you don't need it to live.
In closing i have to say, great concept and it makes sense, but quite frankly a lot more work should be put into this system before its release, listen to your player base. We don't need to "try it out" to understand the implications of this sytem on our characters. We also don't like having to revamp our characters every six months or so when you try something new that you (SIMU) think is great but the majority of players strongly dislike. In the end i know Simu tends to do the right thing, we all get worked up and they fix what they need to, So everyone be patient, have a little faith that they will get it right, and hopefully it won't be half bad. If not then we deal with them then
"Train in something your character would not train in and have a better chance to live at a very high cost, lose some very important skills i have to migrate the points to do so, basically train in it for the mechanics not the IC reason OR don't train in it and likely die"
Now with that said, the system DOES make sense, if my character does not train to fight off more than one critter at a time, then he should not fight as well against more than one critter, pretty simple logic. However, My character does not, and will not ever group hunt, he is a jerk and an unliked outcast and prefers it that way.
He is also a sniper, so here is a question that should be looked into. If critters can have a range based system, why can't characters? For example Raptors in Gyldmar fly around, my Rogue hides they sniff him out and attack, he goes back into hiding, TRIES to attack them but they are out of range, the messaging is similiar to this "The raptor is out of range, maybe you should try casting or throwing something at it"
So basically, for pures and bow users i would suggest trying to find a way to incrperate range, i know it has been brought up before, i also know it would be very tough to do, but now your forcing the need for such a system. SIMU should never make a skill required in order for the average person to go hunt. And before all you people who love to point out that it isn't required, go hunt alone and get jumped by four critters...or better yet take a trip from one town to another and get jumped by three critters in passing and tell me you don't need it to live.
In closing i have to say, great concept and it makes sense, but quite frankly a lot more work should be put into this system before its release, listen to your player base. We don't need to "try it out" to understand the implications of this sytem on our characters. We also don't like having to revamp our characters every six months or so when you try something new that you (SIMU) think is great but the majority of players strongly dislike. In the end i know Simu tends to do the right thing, we all get worked up and they fix what they need to, So everyone be patient, have a little faith that they will get it right, and hopefully it won't be half bad. If not then we deal with them then
CLEWIS2592
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 04:40 PM CST
Actually, I have decided this is all fine. I am just going to do like Brimz and use my level 93 cleric to baby my other characters. She can bind everything, then there is no problem for me.
Way to go Simutronics! Excellent idea Warden! I always felt that was unnecessary, and kind of not right. Now I see it is exactly what they want me to do.
Jade's player, with her zombie cleric in tow
~Jade emits a deep throaty purr that sounds remarkably like a contented panther cub.~
Way to go Simutronics! Excellent idea Warden! I always felt that was unnecessary, and kind of not right. Now I see it is exactly what they want me to do.
Jade's player, with her zombie cleric in tow
~Jade emits a deep throaty purr that sounds remarkably like a contented panther cub.~
MANNC1
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 04:46 PM CST
>I'd like to point out the fact that I will rescue you from any swarm and expect you to do the same for me. So ha!
laugh
I'll happily send my companion into the room to grab ya by the scruff of the neck and drag ya away from the constructs :)
He won't do much damage, you'd already be dead :P
Odysia and Roheryn, the barrier's fierce feline
"No dictator, no invader, can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against that power, governments and tyrants and armies, cannot stand."
laugh
I'll happily send my companion into the room to grab ya by the scruff of the neck and drag ya away from the constructs :)
He won't do much damage, you'd already be dead :P
Odysia and Roheryn, the barrier's fierce feline
"No dictator, no invader, can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against that power, governments and tyrants and armies, cannot stand."
TSORAN
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 05:12 PM CST
| >Yeah but can you imagine what happens to a fogging cleric/empath now on a rescue? heh. |
Bah. That ain't how ya does it, son!
Lotsa folks can do rescues! No more self-service injuries and deaders, nope, not anymore. We deliver now! Sit back and let them come to you. The GM's will make sure you got plenty of business, if that's your cup of tea.
--Tsoran
Koldeen's shop (Cool Stuff!) http://www.playershops.com/Koldeen
Erindril's shop (Enchanted gear) http://www.playershops.com/Erindril
http://www.tsoran.com/
tsoran@tsoran.com
AIM: GSTsoran
CLEWIS2592
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 05:20 PM CST
>>Lotsa folks can do rescues! No more self-service injuries and deaders, nope, not anymore. We deliver now! Sit back and let them come to you. The GM's will make sure you got plenty of business, if that's your cup of tea. Tsoran
I get it now!! This is Simutronics way of keeping game balance! They figured that maybe too many clerics will convert to paladins when they allow, therefore, they will instead provide enhanced raising opportunities, so really, this is a cleric perk! Really! It is a matter of game balance, keeping the cleric profession attractive and all that.
Jade's player
~Jade emits a deep throaty purr that sounds remarkably like a contented panther cub.~
I get it now!! This is Simutronics way of keeping game balance! They figured that maybe too many clerics will convert to paladins when they allow, therefore, they will instead provide enhanced raising opportunities, so really, this is a cleric perk! Really! It is a matter of game balance, keeping the cleric profession attractive and all that.
Jade's player
~Jade emits a deep throaty purr that sounds remarkably like a contented panther cub.~
KHANASP
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 05:21 PM CST
Looks fine to me, however one or two adjustments.
First, 1 creature at 15 ranks, an additional 1 every 10 trains afterwards.
Second, reduce the 25% down to something more along the lines of 10-15%.
Reasoning, multiple oppoents generally end up confusing themselves unless they've been trained to work together. At a certain point, you just can't crowd somebody any more.
An addition, cap the amount of creatures that can effect one person. However, have the cap adjustable by size. So many tiny, so many small, so many medium, so many large. Perfectly, this would be done with a proper sorting of creature/race sizes as well.
~Wulfhen
Laleena says, "Before Mekthros curses Wulfhen's pants again, I'm goin' to bed."
First, 1 creature at 15 ranks, an additional 1 every 10 trains afterwards.
Second, reduce the 25% down to something more along the lines of 10-15%.
Reasoning, multiple oppoents generally end up confusing themselves unless they've been trained to work together. At a certain point, you just can't crowd somebody any more.
An addition, cap the amount of creatures that can effect one person. However, have the cap adjustable by size. So many tiny, so many small, so many medium, so many large. Perfectly, this would be done with a proper sorting of creature/race sizes as well.
~Wulfhen
Laleena says, "Before Mekthros curses Wulfhen's pants again, I'm goin' to bed."
AGLEG
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 05:30 PM CST
I dont see why they didnt just follow the same progression as the attacks. 5 ranks for 2 swings 15 ranks for 3 swings 35 ranks for 4 swings .. replace swings with critters. Either way rogues are going to be hard hit as i know of one with more than 5 ranks of MOC. 10/3 a rank is pretty costly, i wont get 30 or 40 ranks at that cost
MAERIT
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 05:54 PM CST
Yay! My warrior is finally useful to all those mages. Ha! No longer will warriors be the only ones asking for help! "I need a spell-up please!" All you wizards and sorcerers will need US to help YOU handle swarms. Maybe we'll start seeing thoughts from the "pures" (which I hate saying because I feel that I am a "pure" warrior) which could be along the lines of -- I need a warrior companion to help me in my hunt! That would be ironic, now wouldn't it!
As a warrior, no wizard or sorcerer has ever sought my assistance in combat, but now... oh NOW I can guard them with our new guard/protect ability which will take 50% of your attacks and put them on me... and I hunt in mostly offensive stance which means (if I have translated correctly) the push-down on my defense is Zero. Not to mention that my manuevers are very effective in disabling at least one critter at a time... Spectactular!
My advice -- Find yourself a friendly neighborhood warrior to guard you in your combat, and those pesky swarms will still be simple, maybe even invasions! We even have a few manuevers and skills that will help you finish the job just that much faster. See... us poor warriors have been overlooked for so long. What was the typical response to the "usefulness" of a warrior? Oh yeah, "they're good for assessing and bashing" they'd say, "and some of them are good for dragging heavy corpses out of a good invasion". Welp, now we're good for something else... saving the skin of all you pure spellcasters when five critters show up and you would just rather not flee for fear of having your defenses halved.
__________________________________________________________________________________________
Banter aside... its not balanced, but has a potential to be. Training in MOC is tough even for a warrior. I'd say the system is a "fair" idea, but the tweaking needs to be along the lines of less percentage of DS decrease (say 15% for two opponents, and 30% for three), and decreasing the MOC requirement a touch (10 for one - 20 for more than one) is more reasonable.
Another thought would be to designate certain spells for each major spell-casting group as a way to help defend against swarms. I could see spirit servants, demons, singing sword, animate dead, and familiars (both ranger/wizard) providing a service much like a warrior's guard and eliminating some of this threat. That would be perfect, and would provide less risk to the solo hunters of the spell-casting sort, but not eliminate it (which I believe is the point of the system).
All in all, I can't see this as being so devastating as many have expressed, but that's probably because I'm in the mindset of a warrior. I might suggest everyone provide some more "helpful" insight instead of just ranting on thier dislike, though I find myself greatly entertained by the over-statements in so many of the posts. Good luck in finding your balance, and do let me know if any of my ideas (besides the rant of course) seem logical or reasonable.
-- Maerit Blackhail
As a warrior, no wizard or sorcerer has ever sought my assistance in combat, but now... oh NOW I can guard them with our new guard/protect ability which will take 50% of your attacks and put them on me... and I hunt in mostly offensive stance which means (if I have translated correctly) the push-down on my defense is Zero. Not to mention that my manuevers are very effective in disabling at least one critter at a time... Spectactular!
My advice -- Find yourself a friendly neighborhood warrior to guard you in your combat, and those pesky swarms will still be simple, maybe even invasions! We even have a few manuevers and skills that will help you finish the job just that much faster. See... us poor warriors have been overlooked for so long. What was the typical response to the "usefulness" of a warrior? Oh yeah, "they're good for assessing and bashing" they'd say, "and some of them are good for dragging heavy corpses out of a good invasion". Welp, now we're good for something else... saving the skin of all you pure spellcasters when five critters show up and you would just rather not flee for fear of having your defenses halved.
__________________________________________________________________________________________
Banter aside... its not balanced, but has a potential to be. Training in MOC is tough even for a warrior. I'd say the system is a "fair" idea, but the tweaking needs to be along the lines of less percentage of DS decrease (say 15% for two opponents, and 30% for three), and decreasing the MOC requirement a touch (10 for one - 20 for more than one) is more reasonable.
Another thought would be to designate certain spells for each major spell-casting group as a way to help defend against swarms. I could see spirit servants, demons, singing sword, animate dead, and familiars (both ranger/wizard) providing a service much like a warrior's guard and eliminating some of this threat. That would be perfect, and would provide less risk to the solo hunters of the spell-casting sort, but not eliminate it (which I believe is the point of the system).
All in all, I can't see this as being so devastating as many have expressed, but that's probably because I'm in the mindset of a warrior. I might suggest everyone provide some more "helpful" insight instead of just ranting on thier dislike, though I find myself greatly entertained by the over-statements in so many of the posts. Good luck in finding your balance, and do let me know if any of my ideas (besides the rant of course) seem logical or reasonable.
-- Maerit Blackhail
MANNC1
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 06:00 PM CST
>I could see spirit servants, demons, singing sword, animate dead, and familiars (both ranger/wizard) providing a service much like a warrior's guard and eliminating some of this threat.
Our companions do have the ability to guard us. Giving us DS at the cost of AS, based on our affinity with our companions.
Odysia and Roheryn, who will be guarding this weedmage in the near future
"No dictator, no invader, can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against that power, governments and tyrants and armies, cannot stand."
Our companions do have the ability to guard us. Giving us DS at the cost of AS, based on our affinity with our companions.
Odysia and Roheryn, who will be guarding this weedmage in the near future
"No dictator, no invader, can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against that power, governments and tyrants and armies, cannot stand."
GARYBME
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 06:08 PM CST
>>... and I hunt in mostly offensive stance which means (if I have translated correctly) the push-down on my defense is Zero.<<
Not exactly. After it takes you down to offensive, it starts taking away the DS you get from evade (dodging ranks), block (shield ranks), and parry (weapon ranks) along with all the stat and other bonuses that go along with them. Your defense will ba about as good as someone fresh off the turnip farm.
Gary
Not exactly. After it takes you down to offensive, it starts taking away the DS you get from evade (dodging ranks), block (shield ranks), and parry (weapon ranks) along with all the stat and other bonuses that go along with them. Your defense will ba about as good as someone fresh off the turnip farm.
Gary
KLASER
Re: RSN: Multi-Opponent Combat
11/30/2004 07:17 PM CST
This is by far the worst system you've ever implemented, good job screwing yourselves.
