Huh. I'm suprised more people are not aware of the RM underpinings of the original GS3. It's why many systems are like they are today. Even the concept of hybrid casters.

Oh, and the concept of Arcane was from RMC 1, with (I think) the actual Archmage class from RMC 2.

RM is still alive and well today, by the way.


-Taakhooshi, and Me

>>Fascinating... so... the system this game is born from actually had a class that was hybrid of three realms.... hmmm... how could we do that here? ahem -- Virilneus

There's already a class that is kind of a mix of three. Empaths! Healing, Spirit, Mental.

~ The girl behind Debia, fleeing

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Contribute to the economy of Debia! You too can make a difference!
http://www.virilneus.com/shops/myshops/26

There were actually two, Robert. :) Archmage and Arcist. And yes, the theory was hybrid all three realms (interesting, eh V? And part of the reason why I had no real issue with minor elemental for sorcs -- even though it doesn't achieve what sorcs need).

But, Robert, they also had discrete arcane magic lists that only the two listed professions could learn as base lists. And that's where my commentary applies. Double the disaster, but twice the fun. :)

And Oscuro, yep, understood. Wouldn't suggest we do it because it was done in ICE Rolemaster and that's where we started. But would point out it worked there, and that worked here. So there's nothing wrong "conceptually" with such a hybrid class.

You might even get me to roll a new character at that point. :)

Doug

Ugh ;/

Correct that "no real issue with minor elemental" to "no real issue with minor mental" and it reads so much more like I had intended.

Doug

>>Sorcerers are currently the closest to Archmage concept in the GS. The are currently the only ones that have access to two realms (since Empaths are going to stick with MnS and MjS and not get MnM, even though they are considered hybrids), and even more so, many of the arcane spells we have seen so far are considered native to sorcerers.

Empaths also have Mental lore thresholds for their spells, part of their whole hybrid status.


~ The girl behind Debia

---

Contribute to the economy of Debia! You too can make a difference!
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>>Empaths are not real hybrids. It is known.

They most certainly are. That's like calling a Bard a pure. It's simply not true by definition.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Rogue Team
Cleric/Empath Team

It seems to me empaths are a hybrid when it is convenient, and not when its not.

In anycase, they are not as hybrid as sorcerers.




Virilneus
Fix Sorcerer Training Costs
http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2009/05/14/sorcerer-training-costs/
Math Doesn't Lie.
Give Sorcerers Minor Mental
http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2009/07/05/give-sorcerers-minor-mental/

>I agree that they don't have two minor circles, but their primary circle is a hybrid of both Mental and Spiritual magic. That, by definition, makes them a hybrid, just like Bards are hybrids for Mental and Elemental magic.

Except we do it better!

Go, Go 1030 Nerfstick!

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-- dan/gnimble

Well, if we go back to the RM roots, then you get the definition where all the hybrids had actual spell list access to two separate realms.

That's how I would define a hybrid, but that's only my opinion.


-Taakhooshi, and Me

>The definition that fits for all of them would be: a professional circle that is the combination of two different spheres. <MCLLOYD>

That is necessary but insufficient. It describes them all, but does not help to address the functional differences between them.

Random thoughts from a... non-pure bard who hunts with nothing but CS spells. (last swing at the end of a hunt was me goofing off... and I had 11 seconds RT with a falchion)

I like the spells, both in concept and implimentation. As it is the only comparable ability I have to actually prevent casting would be that unprep function of 417... which is underwhelming and expensive by merit of being a side effect of the spell and not its primary purpose.

Is the duration longer then it 'needs' to be? Yes. But looking at it from a PvE perspective that part is really unimportant. Is the fact its unpreventable like level odd? I cant ward a sorcerer's 703 (let alone 720) I cant ward a clerics silence... I cant 'ward' a warriors feign and no one can prevent my 1005 from hitting like level so it seems pretty much in line there.

It 'might' be an issue if I ever hunt a creature that ever has access to both spells at the same time, though the odds of that one are pretty slim and even as it is, song of depression in the temple is almost as much of a show stopper for squares with an even longer duration.

For the ability to NOT die to DC, or even 702 for that matter, I'll take the negatives with a smile.

Tal, player of

1005 is purely level based with the only modifiers I'm aware of being spellsong ranks (I'm 1x) and influence bonus (I'm a pure elf with a bonus higher then most races can hit without enhansives). So it falls under the... you go on to the ground in offensive with no movement possible for 30 seconds 90%+ of the time side of it. No warding rolls required.

I personally don't care if there's a warding roll if I have a 100% chance to fail it outside of the target fumbling or open ended rolling negative. Sure, I could 'pretent' I have a chance to ward the stuff but really, the end result is exactly the same.

Tal.

Dgry

No 1005 is a hidden CS/TD roll. If you have enough elemental TD spells up, then you'll pretty much be immune to it.

Incorrect. It doesn't use the warding system at all and no elemental spells help against it.

GameMaster Estild
Cleric/Empath Team

>I can't currently replicate any of my test results from the past, so I guess I'm wrong.

You guess?

I'm not even sure why you thought it worked the way you assumed.

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-- dan/gnimble

Well, my personal knowledge of the spell comes from GM posts that predate both krakipedia and GS4 and a number of personal experiences as both a pure and swinging bard using the spell to great effect against targets of various level ranges and spell up situations.

Outside of that though, it could be argued the spell just falls into the realm of 'needs to be adjusted' but I was merely bringing it up as an example of things that aren't realistically defendable against for my non-post cap bard self. 1708 and 1720 being added to that list has little initial impact on me.

Tal, player of.

I can definitely appreciate your intentions in that. Sorry for the defensive tone myself.. in general I've been subject to a lot of minor corrections after being gone for years and it makes me feel the need to stand fast on the things I'm sure of, heh.

Tal, player of.

<<You guess?

I'm not even sure why you thought it worked the way you assumed.

-- dan/gnimble>>

This coming from the guy that claimed 1011 never fell due to environment interference (OTF)...

Don't gimme that SMARTER THAN U mess.

>Additionally, a fully stacked GWE is nearly impossible to ward with 522 Bardic CS and I can 1005 to sleep almost ever time.

I once posted on the boards how I could web a griffin every time. Guess what happened.

Sounds to me like you just put 1005 on the nerf list.


Virilneus
Fix Sorcerer Training Costs
http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2009/05/14/sorcerer-training-costs/
Math Doesn't Lie.
Give Sorcerers Minor Mental
http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2009/07/05/give-sorcerers-minor-mental/

dan/gnimble

I suppose I should clarify; I took issue with someone saying 'they guess' when a GM explicitly stated that's not how it worked.

In all fairness, we're not infallible. Just be willing to test the issue if you think we're wrong.

GameMaster Estild
Cleric/Empath Team

1030, dagger ambushing, unwardable 700's CS's, paladin AS, (insert your personal favorite style of empath here), cant we all just get along?

Tal.