>>Then we have 1720, which seems woefully underpowered compared to 1708. At 202 ranks 1708 will knock you down 43 levels in spells, nothing between 7 and 50. At 202 ranks 1720 will get you up to level 11. This is not balanced.<<

Look on the bright side. With those numbers, 1720 will make you immune to 1708 :-)

---

27 authors on ignore and counting.

>>I see, so anyone with 8 ranks in MIU can now start screwing with every cleric in the game, one wave and they're guaranteed to not be able to fog or raise for three minutes.

As long as that Cleric is within a certain level margin of them, yes. But then that Cleric can also turn around and accuse them of assault since 1708 is a spell of war. This is no worse than if a Rogue Cutthroated them.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Rogue Team
Cleric/Empath Team

Cutthroat, as ridiculous as it is (why can my empath not cast while cutthroated but can cast with no arms, legs, or head?)... requires a roll Oscuro, it can be defended against, it is not purely level based. It also doesn't have a three minute duration, and lasts only as long as you need to eat some stem.

This has no defense, other than being significantly older, and lasts for 3 minutes whenever successful.

I see a big difference.


Virilneus
Fix Sorcerer Training Costs
http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2009/05/14/sorcerer-training-costs/
Math Doesn't Lie.
Give Sorcerers Minor Mental
http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2009/07/05/give-sorcerers-minor-mental/

<<I see, so anyone with 8 ranks in MIU can now start screwing with every cleric in the game, one wave and they're guaranteed to not be able to fog or raise for three minutes.

I do not like the sound of this. No warding check, and forget justice. The person will probably be free to go before the duration is up.

Would you consider having it affect combat only (aggressive) spells?

Kaedra

>>Cutthroat, as ridiculous as it is (why can my empath not cast while cutthroated but can cast with no arms, legs, or head?)... requires a roll Oscuro, it can be defended against, it is not purely level based. It also doesn't have a three minute duration, and lasts only as long as you need to eat some stem.

A 2x CM Rogue with 5 ranks of Cutthroat is going to be able to slit any pure's throat just like any high level pure can ward any square. PvP combat is simply not balanced and we're not going to waste time trying to do that. Mystic Impedance, just like Cutthroat, Silence, and Corrupt Essence, are meant as PvC (player vs creature) combat primarily, if not exclusively, and the balancing lies in that realm.

Mystic Impedance's duration is longer than other spells because not just does it only prevent a subset of spells to be cat, but the number of times a caster can cast native spells is only limited by mana. 1708, being in the Arcane Circle, is limited by charges on items, which are far more valuable than mana. If Silence runs out on a target (I know, this is unlikely to happen when you're capped, but it does happen in low-mid level hunting), the player can always cast Silence again. However, 1708 would require another valuable charge from their wand. We wanted a charge:target ratio of 1.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Rogue Team
Cleric/Empath Team

Virilneus

Incorrect Estild.

703 buys you so little time you're really only guaranteed 1 cast, maybe 2 if you're really quick. If you're able to kill something so quickly, 703 becomes irrelevant, why not just kill the thing to begin with?

After the cast roundtime from casting Corrupt Essence expires, you have 12 seconds. If you can't cast 3 spells in that time, then you're doing something wrong. And yes, most Pures can kill their targets in 3 casts.

GameMaster Estild
Cleric/Empath Team

>>But then that Cleric can also turn around and accuse them of assault since 1708 is a spell of war. This is no worse than if a Rogue Cutthroated them.

Like Virilneus pointed out this is FAR different from cutthroat: the roll that can be defended against and a duration which can be reduced to <10 seconds with FA training or a GoS ability.

Cutthroat I can deal with, I keep single doses of stem in my cloak for when bandits use it on me.. I eat it and a few seconds later move on. This would send me back to town for three minutes (hooray for more waiting in the game?): My staple combat spells for tough fights are web bolt and Sympathy, which are both guaranteed to be affected by this at levels 18 and 20. The duration is what perplexes me the most, if you didn't design it specifically to be used against players than a 30-60 second duration would be plenty.

And town justice may keep it from being completely abused, but it's after the fact and does not address the actual spell itself.

>After the cast roundtime from casting Corrupt Essence expires, you have 12 seconds. If you can't cast 3 spells in that time, then you're doing something wrong. And yes, most Pures can kill their targets in 3 casts.

You are thinking 1 on 1, Virilneus is thinking swarm. Several of those 4 possible casts are 703 on other creatures. The duration here is important for the size of swarm that can be kept under control with it.

>>Cutthroat, as ridiculous as it is (why can my empath not cast while cutthroated but can cast with no arms, legs, or head?)...

A leftover feature from when Empaths had the 800 spell circle, which was primarily only healing spells and thus kind of made it necessary for them to be able to cast from that circle regardless of injury. The new spell circle, IMO, shouldn't have that feature for non-healing spells. It makes Empaths unbalanced.


~ The girl behind Debia

---

Contribute to the economy of Debia! You too can make a difference!
http://www.virilneus.com/shops/myshops/26

<<Just like how 213 doesn't require a warding check, but can prevent any offensive spells being cast in the room? Mystic Impedance is hardly a new tool for mayhem. If griefers want to grief, they'll grief...and be subject to the same policy as existed before this spell became available. = - GM Oscuro - =

Yeah, but if I don't like the fact that I can't cast offensive spells in a room where 213 is active, I can just leave and go about my business somewhere else. You're comparing apples to oranges here.

I see the spell as an invitation for harassment. The offset of someone only needing to train 8 ranks in MIU to effectively neuter a rescuing cleric is ridiculous.

>>Would you consider having it affect combat only (aggressive) spells?

<<It's been considered and rejected.

And this, I really don't get. If someone is using this to stop a caster from harming them with spells, then preventing combat spells seems like the obvious way to go. What is the point of stopping someone from using non-combat spells, except to grief them?

Kaedra

<<I see the spell as an invitation for harassment. The offset of someone only needing to train 8 ranks in MIU to effectively neuter a rescuing cleric is ridiculous.>>

There's a million ways for us to harass each other. I don't think it'll be a problem, and the focus should be on the CvM for these spells.

-Keleborrn.

To offset the torrent of negativity coming from some quarters, I'd like to offer that I like both spells, and look forward to using them. The wand looks especially useful. (considering I die from Dark Catalyst too often.)

Rishi
- Player of Kembal

---

Speaking to Plur, Belnia says, "You're no Kembal."

[tab;e]
Sorry, I didn't mean for it to be harsh, just that if people want to discuss how non-Arcane spells are bad or need to be improved, they should take it to their profession's folder. I'd like to keep the discussion on 1708/1720.
[/table]

I understand that, and my comment was somewhat of a snide one. However, you know durn well that the sorcerer folder gets little official attention, aside from some very recent stuff from Taliq that seems to have (unhappily) died off.

Given that you were using 703 as a comparison for these new spells, I felt it more than appropriate to discuss the relative usefulness of 703 and its duration.


-Taakhooshi, and Me

>and the spell that most needs its duration trimmed is Curse.

Curse can be dispelled and neutralized.

This spell can't be, unless you... I don't know... took a swim in the rift.


Virilneus
Fix Sorcerer Training Costs
http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2009/05/14/sorcerer-training-costs/
Math Doesn't Lie.
Give Sorcerers Minor Mental
http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2009/07/05/give-sorcerers-minor-mental/

>A leftover feature from when Empaths had the 800 spell circle, which was primarily only healing spells and thus kind of made it necessary for them to be able to cast from that circle regardless of injury. The new spell circle, IMO, shouldn't have that feature for non-healing spells. It makes Empaths unbalanced.

It isn't just 1106 you can't cast while cutthroated debia, you also can't cast healing spells. I'm not sure you can even REGENERATE either.


Virilneus
Fix Sorcerer Training Costs
http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2009/05/14/sorcerer-training-costs/
Math Doesn't Lie.
Give Sorcerers Minor Mental
http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2009/07/05/give-sorcerers-minor-mental/

Seriously silver? You've never heard of 309 and 315? You were just asking on Lichnet about this, and I was the one who answered you, and then you come on here and with bold words and all pretend to educate me on the issue? The person who just explained how the spells work to you? Like irony much?

I didn't say curse can be removed by 417 or 119. Did I? I said it can be dispelled.

Here, allow me to help you

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dispel

As you can see what I said was perfectly accurate.

Now, as for your claim that "any magic user you run across can dispel 1708" that is true... but you'd still need to find one. And you couldn't cast it yourself, even if you had such on a scroll or a wand, it'd likely take you all your charges before you get the spell removed, unless your a square hunting without spells, in which case why would you care that 1708 is on you?

No, if you're a pure, you'll have to weed through all your existing spells. Maybe you'll get lucky, maybe not, but it'll cost hundreds of mana to dispel it, then hundreds of mana putting the spells you wanted to keep back up.

If you get cursed, you can invoke 315 off a scroll once, or 309, or use a pure potion. It is a scapel. 417/119 are axes.

But yes, any magic user you run across that has probably on average 200 mana to use can return you to a state where you'll need maybe 500 mana or more to spell up, which makes this more desirable than just waiting the 180 minute duration because.....?

Believe me, if there was a spell called "Remove impedance" out there I'm sure neither myself, nor kithor, nor kaedra, nor whomever else does not relish having a 3 minute timeout, would not be complaining.

Virilneus
Fix Sorcerer Training Costs
http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2009/05/14/sorcerer-training-costs/
Math Doesn't Lie.
Give Sorcerers Minor Mental
http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2009/07/05/give-sorcerers-minor-mental/

>Seriously silver? You've never heard of 309 and 315? You were just asking on Lichnet about this, and I was the one who answered you, and then you come on here and with bold words and all pretend to educate me on the issue? The person who just explained how the spells work to you? Like irony much? <Virilneus>

I love irony. Here, let me grab the rest of the quote that I didn't originally include.

>Curse can be dispelled and neutralized.

I left out the "neutralized" part because it can, in fact be neutralized. But I'm pretty sure that 417/119 do not, in fact, dispel it. It came up during a forum debate awhile ago where it was explained that a "15th level pure professional spell should not be overcome by a minor circle spell that most PCs have access to".

>I didn't say curse can be removed by 417 or 119. Did I? I said it can be dispelled.

I think perhaps you should verify the names of those two spells you just cited. You can save the dictionary link.

Perhaps if you wanted to refer to 315, you should have said "removed". As in "Remove Curse". But in a game with a system that includes not one but two spells specifically called "Dispel", perhaps you should avoid the disingenuous position of saying that the spell can be "dispelled" when it can't be affected by either of those spells.

The fact of the matter is, there are more options for getting rid of 1708/1720 than there are for getting 715 off of oneself.

>But yes, any magic user you run across that has probably on average 200 mana to use can return you to a state where you'll need maybe 500 mana or more to spell up, which makes this more desirable than just waiting the 180 minute duration because.....?

Or, as you already know, any bard can just remove it with 1013.

~ Lumi

>So, Lumi, if I said "Racial prejudice in Ta'illistim should be abolished" you'd come up and say "535 and 235 have NOTHING to do with racial profiling, noob, here, let me bold the words, so you understand" <Virilneus>

Strawman much? Justice has nothing to do with the magic system.

>Talk about splitting hairs, and again, you didn't even know that 417/119 couldn't dispel curse, you can to go on lichnet and ask me.

That was actually me wanting to verify something I was already 99% certain of, based on 1) trying to 417 a curse off of myself many years ago, and 2) the previously referenced forum debate about professional vs. minor spells. The fact that you were the one to confirm it for me was simple irony.

>How about a compromise? We toss a potion in the alchemists shop that can remove this spell when drunk? Dealio? Or heck, make it an alchemy recipe even. It might get me to pull out my cauldron for the first time in months.

I kinda doubt that would happen, but I'd have no problem with it. Anything they want to add to alchemy, I'm probably okay with (barring silliness like a "corpse revival potion" or a "1030/635/etc. amulet").

>>My level 13 sorceress has a good chance of not warding things the same level as she. Forget higher. But she could take her 15 ranks of MIU and prevent a meteor swarm from occuring? Right.

Your level 13 Sorceress is going to fail to affect most people that can cast Meteor Swarm and will fail against anyone who can cast Nature's Fury. It's not auto-success. It's auto-success within a certain level range.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Rogue Team
Cleric/Empath Team

>That's exactly the point - you're preventing your enemy from using only the most devastating attacks. They can still blast you with whatever low-mid level offensive spells they have, though, so watch out!

I think, Oscuro, her point was that she doesn't think it is logical that a sparsely trained laymen, as far as 15 levels your junior, could, without fail, neuter the most powerful magic of the most powerful pures ever to walk elanthia. Theoretically, someone could have waved this wand at Despana and saved the elves a lot of grief.

I guess, the point being, when you train to say rank, 21 in a spell circle, it says "Researching Meteor Swarm", and again at 22, and 23, and 24, and then 25 you finally finish learning it. 5 ranks of learning and practice.

I have of course read your posts where you say because of the complexity of higher level magic, it is easier to forget... if that may be true, why do other spell hindering effects not have an equivalent bias? And, as well, why is what you forget based on the ATTACKER's magic, than your own?

Surely Bob the Wizard and Sam the Sorcerer and Jenny the Cleric aren't all equally intelligent with equal memories and equal disciplines, and have all practiced their spells equally? So that when Urkle the Rogue waves a wand at them they all forget the exact same numbers of their spells, because their knowledge is based on Urkle's abilities?

Tell me how that makes any sense whatsoever.

Now, I get the fact that you don't want this ability, to use 1708, to be pure only. It is obvious, might as well be explicit about it, you want rogues and warriors to get use out of this spell.

Fine... so... how about we make a bit of a compromise? Right now you have absolutely 0 acknowledgement in the spell formula to the knowledge or magical abilities of the target. It makes no sense. If we compare it to the CMAN system, squares still almost always have a guaranteed hit on any pure, but nevertheless, there ARE things pures can do to defend. So... why do squares need a guaranteed hit with no chance for any sort of defense or mitigation here? I can't think of any equivalent game system.

Even unsanctifying, which is perhaps a similar magic affect, requires a roll comparing skills to see whom has the more powerful magic.

So, if not a TD roll, why not a roll based on something else? Urkle's MIU vs. Jenny's knowledge. I would propose a combination of Discipline (as a proxy for memory), and something to recognize your dedication to a spell circle. Something perhaps like total ranks in a spell circle (uncapped)/10, or on a logarithmic scale based on a summation chart seed.

So Urkle waves at Jenny and she has 130 ranks in the 300's, and forgets none of them, 70 ranks of 100s and forgets down to 15, and 40 ranks of 200s, and forgets down to 7.

And if Urkle wants to hurt Jenny more, he needs to train in more MIU, like a pure would have to train in CM.

Then let the duration be based on a combination of say, Intuition (your ability to figure out how things go), and maybe mana control in the specific sphere of origin of the spell.


Virilneus
Fix Sorcerer Training Costs
http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2009/05/14/sorcerer-training-costs/
Math Doesn't Lie.
Give Sorcerers Minor Mental
http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2009/07/05/give-sorcerers-minor-mental/