There seems to be a lot of emphasis on scenarios where one player locks down another player's spell-casting ability. In general, we don't balance spells with Player vs. Player scenarios in mind. The situation described, where a warrior with a paltry eight ranks of Magic Item Use and, presumably, sufficient levels to actually succeed locks down a ranger and prevents Nature's Fury from being cast, isn't a concern for the design of the spell. Frankly, if you're concerned about being locked down by another player, I question why you are playing this game, which isn't even remotely PvP friendly and certainly not designed to be a PvP battleground.

That aside, the spell is certainly targeted for use by any character of any profession who has devoted significant training points into either Magic Item Use or Arcane Symbols. That an important distinction from strictly considering high level pure professions. In either case, it allows such characters to lock down lower level spells which are what creatures actually cast.

As for the conceptual underpinnings of the spell, it makes complete sense to me, and I had nothing to do with its design. The easiest way to prevent or block something is find its point of weakness or a bottle neck. Conceptually, the spell makes preparing spells difficult or impossible, which is the weak spot or bottle neck of the spell-casting process. Remember, Sounds can pretty easily distract a character and ruin a spell, regardless of how long it took for that character to learn it. Presumably, higher level spells are more difficult and complex to cast, and as a result more easily disrupted and ruined.

--

TLDR; It's a neat spell and isn't the end of the world.

--
Naos

I'm immune to fire! Now with more banhammer! You sense the bond between you and your grey cat grow stronger.

>As for the conceptual underpinnings of the spell, it makes complete sense to me, and I had nothing to do with its design.

Does it make sense to you that all casters of equal level, regardless of all individual traits concerning skills and stats, are equally vulnerable to this? For an analogy, that while under the effect of this spell, a person who theoretically spends 10 hours a day practicing his spells by rote, has no better chance of overcoming it than someone who spends no time doing same?

That certainly makes no sense to me.


Virilneus
Fix Sorcerer Training Costs
http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2009/05/14/sorcerer-training-costs/
Math Doesn't Lie.
Give Sorcerers Minor Mental
http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2009/07/05/give-sorcerers-minor-mental/

<< See shattered, for one. >>

I doubt this will change how we design spells. If you're playing in the Shattered instance, then you better be ready to deal with griefers.

As for the duration, I don't rightly know.

<< 60 ranks of CM ... 8 ranks in MIU >>

I don't think this is a good comparison.

Locking down high level spells isn't nearly the same handicap for a spell-caster as entirely removing a weapon from a weapon-user's hand. Losing a weapon can effectively neuter the offensive capability of a warrior at lower levels, and is still a pretty big hindrance at higher levels where one might have access to more combat maneuvers. Not being able to cast level 20+ spells is unlikely to make a pure so much as bat an eyelash, even 10+ isn't a deal breaker.

--
Naos

I'm immune to fire! Now with more banhammer! You sense the bond between you and your grey cat grow stronger.

a warrior need not wait 3 min if disarmed naos, merely type "get backup sword"

can i type "get backup memory'?


Virilneus
Fix Sorcerer Training Costs
http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2009/05/14/sorcerer-training-costs/
Math Doesn't Lie.
Give Sorcerers Minor Mental
http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2009/07/05/give-sorcerers-minor-mental/

*20% varies by training, void where prohibited.

>I know this is going to be a shock, but some of us have actual roundtime - and don't just instantly vaporize critters with a single cast, loot it with no time waited, and move on. Sometimes, get this, cause this is really out there, slightly more than 20% of the time actually - our first swing doesn't kill the critter and we have to take even longer to kill something.

At 180 seconds, if your swing RT was 6 seconds, you could swing 30 times.

To quote Estild, if you're taking 30 swings to kill something, you're doing it wrong.




Virilneus
Fix Sorcerer Training Costs
http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2009/05/14/sorcerer-training-costs/
Math Doesn't Lie.
Give Sorcerers Minor Mental
http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2009/07/05/give-sorcerers-minor-mental/

>>This. A simple level 8 spell that prevents all 'complex' magic from working doesn't fit at all in the gemstone world, and I'm at a loss how anyone could think otherwise.

But a level 3 spell that prevents all magic, i.e. Corrupt Essence, is fine.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Rogue Team
Cleric/Empath Team

Corrupt essence...

A. requires a warding roll
B. only lasts 15 seconds

If this spell merely had one of those two features, I wouldn't have made a peep.

Virilneus
Fix Sorcerer Training Costs
http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2009/05/14/sorcerer-training-costs/
Math Doesn't Lie.
Give Sorcerers Minor Mental
http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2009/07/05/give-sorcerers-minor-mental/

<<At 180 seconds, if your swing RT was 6 seconds, you could swing 30 times.>>

It was stated pretty clearly that the goal was 1 charge used per critter. The duration is obviously set with that in mind.

Don't forget hiding time too. And things that don't crit can take 10+ swings easily.

-Keleborrn.

And things that don't crit can take 10+ swings easily

And some things take more than one or two casts, as well, which is why I think 703 is under-durationed. But I got told to take that to the sorcerer folder.


-Taakhooshi, and Me

>>15-30 seconds is entirely too short considering its level and reduced subset of spells it affects. <<

This logic sums up why many of the spells in the game need to be revamped. The max duration for sympathy, a 20th level spell and the only crowd control spell available to empaths, doesn't have this duration possible. Sympathy also does not affect many creatures without a significant investment in lore training.

To be honest, this statement upsets me a little because players have been making arguments against spells' percieved impotency for years based on this logic. These arguments are generally refuted in the name of game balance. I don't disagree with the logic of the original statement, there are just many spells within the game that this logic is not currently applied to.

Wil

>This effect is extremely weak compared to most other disabling spells. Its strength is its duration and its ease to hit.

I don't think it's extremely weak at all. Can this be the new 502? How about 504? 512? All of these are underpowered in comparison.

Mandy

>>Sympathy's effect is far stronger than this one. Not only does it affect multiple targets and prevents creatures from attacking you, but they also then attack their allies. This merely causes one creature to be incapable of using a subset of its spells. The creature can still take other actions and cast other spells. They're hardly comparable.<<

>>It absolutely applies. Stronger effects typically have shorter durations. This effect is extremely weak compared to most other disabling spells. Its strength is its duration and its ease to hit.<<

Sympathy has significant restrictions based on lore training in order to reach it's maximum effectiveness. What you get from that is basically the critter attacking other critters in the room ONCE, assuming the creature attacks while under the spell's duration. In my experience hunting my empath, this rarely results in any significant effects above level 50 or so. The effect is absolutely underwhelming compared to almost every other crowd controll spell in existence, all of which are a considerable LOWER level, with considerably less lore requirements.

You're correct, these spells are NOT comparable. Sympathy has a higher mana cost, more restictions, and more training requirements, for the effect of the critters in the room swinging at each other once or twice if you're lucky. 1708 has very few training requirements for absolute success and a significant duration, giving GUARANTEED prevention of any high level spell for a substantial period of time. That doesn't strike me as a weak effect, and to me being prevented from casting regenerate or nature's fury is a MUCH stronger effect than my enemy taking a single swing at another critter in the room, especially when you take away any chance of failure. That's the sort of disabling effect that significantly impairs a caster, and can end or significantly impact a hunt.

>because they are more powerful they also require considerably more effort, training, and skill on the part of the caster and thus are more easily subject to interference from outside forces... -Hal

If we are so easily distracted, why can you cast while missing a leg? Wouldn't that impact concentration quite a bit? How about with 10 creatures in the room, each taking a swing, casting or in general moving around? How about again, with a void ripped open above our heads?

This whole concentration bit is not buyable, considering all the other impairments we can still cast under.

Mandy

>If we are so easily distracted, why can you cast while missing a leg?

You shouldn't be able to. Its just that taking away the ability to cast from a legged critter would make the game too easy for rogues.

>>I, personally, think this is a good idea. A sliding scale with benefits that echo the investment of the user. That is not unlike the paradigm that 1750 was set up to (and yes I realize they are entirely different spells), and I think it is something most of the arcane circle should be geared towards. Benefits from being familiar with the arcane, nominal effects for being unfamiliar.

That design paradigm is already achieved with 1708 since the number of spells it affects is profoundly based on those skills. It's a matter of if we want to proliferate that to every aspect of the spell, and we previously decided it was unnecessary.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Rogue Team
Cleric/Empath Team

So, I'm just curious. . .

How much real experience do we have against creatures with this spell, to date?

I ask because I'm initially of the impression that the spells are good ones, and I didn't trigger on some of these points initially. Yet, I can see they are specifically (and quite passionately) defended in theory.

But I want to know what real experience we have. I'm actually digging on the fact that Dionket might be able to flip the proverbial elemental bird to the vaespilon / sentry crew. And might maybe stand a small chance against liches.

Nice, I say! Now I just need to get the elf to screw down the courage enough to try it.

Your mileage may vary.

Doug

P.S. Please don't remove these spells from the game based on the commentary until we've seen sufficient use?

>And might maybe stand a small chance against liches. <Doug>

Aren't liches immune to all spells below level 10?

>>We might consider basing the duration off of MIU/AS ranks, though...

A straight duration based off MIU/AS ranks I would not be for, as I explained before I mainly see this spell being a problem MvC at higher levels because that's the point where it affects spells a player will be regularly using at that level. Making the duration longer in the areas it hurts the most is just adding insult to injury.

Make the duration based on the runestaff defense of the defender: the more the defender knows about overall magic skills the more able they are to concentrate on their use of magic and resist the effect. I don't know how fleshed out a creature's skills are to know how well this would work though, but you can cap the duration at the current 3 minutes so it wouldn't affect the 'intended use' at all.

>Actually, Doug, in RM the Arcane spellcaster (there was only one, from RM Companion... maybe #3, I think?) was the ArchMage. And he was a hybrid spellcaster of all three Realms (Essence/Elemental, Channeling/Spirit, and Mentalism/Mental), in the same manner that the Sorcerer was a hybrid of only two.

Fascinating... so... the system this game is born from actually had a class that was hybrid of three realms.... hmmm... how could we do that here? ahem


Virilneus
Fix Sorcerer Training Costs
http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2009/05/14/sorcerer-training-costs/
Math Doesn't Lie.
Give Sorcerers Minor Mental
http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2009/07/05/give-sorcerers-minor-mental/