Is there anything other then an evil necromancer?


""A reflection on a pool of water does not reveal its depth."
Do, or do not, there is no try." -Yoda

That depends on whether you consider sociopathic murderers evil or just confused.

"Is there anything other then an evil necromancer?"

In a world like Elanthia where good and evil are more defiantly defined by the existence of gods who embody those ideas...for the most part, no.

Except maybe a redeemed. Who don't train their thanatology.


-Serc

"We, the disenfranchised men and women of Elanthia do, by the publishing of this accord, cast off the oppressive yoke of all law and nations and choose for ourselves a path of loyalty unto ourselves"

Some insiteful answers. Im exploring the idea of grouping the entire RP of any necromancer as evil reguardless of which slice of the pie they wish to serve to others. Where is the argument that any necromancer guild member should not be considered evil?

Yes, there may be lesser evil of the guild when compared with others within the Necro ranks. But, Ive yet to hear a compelling counter-argument (short of me going in and searching for myself these answers Im looking for) that someone belonging to the necromancer guild is not evil.

What Im looking for is a reason why me, or anyone for that matter, should not consider any necroguild member as evil. So far, theres no argument for me, or anyone elce, to reguard the necromancers guild RP as anything short of evil. Lesser evils dont count, cause its still served from the evil pie. Just a smaller serving.


""A reflection on a pool of water does not reveal its depth."
Do, or do not, there is no try." -Yoda

>What Im looking for is a reason why me, or anyone for that matter, should not consider any necroguild member as evil. So far, theres no argument for me, or anyone elce, to reguard the necromancers guild RP as anything short of evil.

No, you pretty much nailed it. All the people trying to work the arguments like "I'm just misunderstood!" or "There's no such thing as Evil guys, a philosopher told me so!" are just making excuses.

~ Kougen

Moon Mages: Ripping reality a new one since 586 BL

I'm not sure the goal of defeating death is terribly noble, but yeah, it is what makes our guild so interesting. We aren't cackling atop Mordor as we clutch demon forged blood bracelets, we're taking, stealing, learning by any means neccesary, and doing whatever we feel will advance our cause. It's far more ambiguous, and far murkier.


I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. I live, I burn with life, I love, I slay, and am content.

>>We aren't cackling atop Mordor as we clutch demon forged blood bracelets, we're taking, stealing, learning by any means neccesary, and doing whatever we feel will advance our cause. It's far more ambiguous, and far murkier.

This, pretty much. There's not really meant to be any ambiguity on the level of "Is necromancy evil?" Well, yes. Morally, ethically, and spiritually it's as bankrupt as Elanthians get.

But as the Old Man asked, can you build a cathedral out of your sins? Is it possible that when you look at the scales, your life really is worth more than theirs? Is it actually possible that through these self-destructive acts you might rip a piece of divinity out for mankind? Is there an alchemy of the flesh and soul that can turn sin into virtue? The Philosopher is not deluded into thinking his actions are good, he thinks his actions are worth it.

And... well. In the quiet of the night, when your thoughts filter to your own mortality, perhaps the sick comfort of denying it is reason enough without any pretense.

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas

Is there an alchemy of the flesh and soul that can turn sin into virtue? The Philosopher is not deluded into thinking his actions are good, he thinks his actions are worth it.

And... well. In the quiet of the night, when your thoughts filter to your own mortality, perhaps the sick comfort of denying it is reason enough without any pretense.
____

A very interesting line of thought. My own Philosopher is a bit of an idealist. He wants to free the races from the tyranny of the Immortals, he fully believes we (or in the very least, most of us) deserve an undying life. When he reaches a point where he must begin working with the civilized races to progress the Work, he fully intends on focusing on those that wont be missed. There is no shortage of murderers or lawless scum in Elanthia, and if their lives will fuel the coming eternal dawn, even better. Even if he fails, he has removed the dangerous from the world, certainly that couldn't be a problem? ;)

Paving the road to damnation with good intentions is a lot of fun, as it turns out.

Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur

Heh, at some level from the RL perspective I think its a good thing that so many people simply can't comprehend or conceive what it really means to be sociopathic or psychopathic and understand the Necromancer mind. They may not be perfect role models in their daily life, but at least it shows the basic definition and sense of "goodness" ingrained within them that they have to brutally seek ways to "justify" their RP with the guild in a manner they can understand.

At the RL level, the people who CAN understand have such imaginative minds, its like being the protagonist in Red Dragon, sometimes you just have to ask yourself, do you simply have such an imaginative mind, such "talent", or are you one of them? Are you that philosophically mature or is there that strange part of you lurking somewhere in that brain that makes you just like them?

RPing is a great way for introspection, not just for your fictional character. You cannot ever (convincingly) RP out what does not exist within you. If you're a convincing jerk IG then at least a part of you IRL is a real jerk. I think the necromancer lore just makes it that much easier to open up these levels of intrigue.

>>Much akin to The Inquisition's methods. How can anyone believe that torture is good? However, the result justifies the method.

I think you've missed the point. The Inquisition is claiming that torture is an acceptable means to root out EVIL. Necromancers are deluded into believing EVIL is an acceptable means to accomplish 'something'. What the 'something' is is questionably moral in and of itself.

I suppose an analogy would be punching a bully before they could hurt a classmate, compared to burning the school down because you believe the curriculum could be better taught in in the janitors shed.


I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. I live, I burn with life, I love, I slay, and am content.

It is important in this case to divide social/moral/ethical evil from cosmological evil.

Cosmologically speaking, no, torture is not really that evil. We have gods for it and everything. Socially/morally/ethically speaking, sure, you can call it evil if you like.

The Inquisition and especially the Hounds of Rutilor do not seem to be designed to be particularly sympathetic. But what they (or at least the Inquisition) are doing is definitely cosmologically good.

---

Rev. Reene

"The time will come when the sun will shine only on free men who know no other master but their reason." - Nicolas de Condorcet

>> Torture's not an acceptable method for anything. People will say anything under torture including damning themselves for stuff they didn't do just to make it stop.

Most of the time they'll say what they think the torturers want to hear. Which is why it's so effective for an organization like the Temple - they get the results they want.

Torture doesn't get you any objectively reliable information, of course. But it does force someone to confirm your pre-existing suspicions, which is all the Temple (or any torturer) is really interested in.

That's also one reason why it's so dangerous.

>>Right, so how does this make the Temple any less evil than the necromancers?

Who says it does? The only difference is that many more factions support the Temple in what they are doing. Necromancers are hardly the only ones viewed as evil, but to everyone else they DO represent world-ending evil.

People will do despicable things if they believe it is for the greater good.

>>Who says it does?

Isn't everyone in this thread saying that the Temple is good and Necromancers are evil?

>>People will do despicable things if they believe it is for the greater good.

Which I believe is how the Philosphers feel. Thinking that the Temple is any better than the necromancers while they are practicing stuff like torture is hypocrisy at its finest.

Ive yet to find anyone to pointly say "No, as a necromancer, you cannot call me or my RP evil. I have, however, heard some good philosopsy attempting (and to some degree) and explaing how the ends justify the means.

What I have found in-game so far, is, that from a non-necro point of view, those opposed to necromany as just as passionate in thier arguments that the necroguild (and all its members) are evil.

I find any and all discussion on why I shouldnt consider the necroguild, and all its members, accordingly evil, something that is helping my non-necro characeter play though.



""A reflection on a pool of water does not reveal its depth."
Do, or do not, there is no try." -Yoda

Why are you all convinced torture is bad? This isn't post-Al-Qaeda Bush Administration or even post-Medieval ages; this is an entirely different time line where there was likely never a unified civil rights movement to ensure equality for all. Child labor laws? Women's Suffrage? Affirmative action? None of these things exist in Elanthia. Torture, as our PC's know it, is just a particularly unpleasant reality, not something to beat your breast about and decry the savagery.

I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. I live, I burn with life, I love, I slay, and am content.

You misunderstand my point; I'm not suggesting our characters shouldn't know that torture is bad when it happens to them, I'm pointing out that torture is likely socially normal. We grew up watching criminals be placed into stocks and beaten up by guards probably more often then we saw someone fill their hiring quota's with an equal mix of gnomes, togs, and elves.


I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. I live, I burn with life, I love, I slay, and am content.

>>Weren't you just in the other thread championing moral relativism?

I was pointing out that Good and evil are perspectives and the fact that the Temple uses Torture proves my point.

On the scale of Elanthian morality:

More Bad ->
|.....................|......................|
Good...............Evil.............Necromancy

The dark gods are more or less evil. Necromancy is worse than evil.

-pete

Well said, Reene.

Using your terms, necromancers are both morally evil and committing acts of cosmological evil, or worse, a pawn of an entity of cosmological evil.

-pete