>>Will NB still be a SvS spell?

It will be charm vs. fortitude. Here is a post with the spell contests laid out.

https://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=4&topic=37&message=5725

Melete

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[Turmis] I'm about to shoot beards in the face

>>NEW SPELL Compel:
>>Advanced Debilitation. Makes players or creatures leave the room the Empath is in, and prevents them from returning via some means for a while. This will be most effective on creatures, but will still have some utility versus players.

Riftal summons 2.0


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I'm not sure what situation Teleport or Moongate are expected to be used, if this is the case. Going to a place you've already been less than a few hours ago isn't very impressive in terms of utility.. -DANFORDS2

I really would prefer option 3, except that having no other cyclic spells allowed while it is active makes me wary of that option. It could be do-able, but I don't really want to change my playing habits.

I'd rather go with Option 1, I guess given the way they are currently stated.

Any word on if we'll still have multiple forms, or will it just be one "empath GS"? Colepexy is still my favorite.

Currently with multiple GS in the room it gets confusing. Might be a good chance to add something like moon mage servants have if we are keeping with the current fae scheme.

Also, this wasn't noted in the original post (now corrected) but Blood Staunch is basic utility, Heal is advanced utility, and Regenerate is cyclic esoteric (since Empaths aren't Bards.)

Melete

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[Turmis] I'm about to shoot beards in the face

I have a question, are there any plans to have Nissa's Binding be blocked by barrier spells?

DRPrime - Celeres Turrance
DRPrime - NecroUnknown

>>I have a question, are there any plans to have Nissa's Binding be blocked by barrier spells?

It will contest any appropriate anti-magic ability, just like every other disabler spell in the game.

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas

Due to the fact that I'll probably need some time to take in the spell list.. I may shoot off a few questions as they come to mind here.

A few GS questions that were not answered...

1) Will they have the ability to wield different types of weapons? Having them be slice only made them terrible against a significant amount of the high level hunting ladder. This is where I would like to see multiple types of GS come in. A stealthy LE wielding GS, a HE/2HE wielding GS, a blunt wielding GS, an archer GS, a tank focused GS... etc. Perhaps not all of those, but it is a wish list right?

2) I know things will be changing a bit in combat 3.0 .. but the defensive capability of avengers has been awful. I hope they won't be parry focused and have an equal resistance to debilitation spells of the empath who is summoning them. Watching my GS get dropped by a MB from a 25th circle moon mage is somewhat depressing.

>a broadly nerfed Guardian

I'm hoping by broadly nerfed you meant more that it will be the cyclic spell preventing us from casting another one, not that this will be a nerfed version of an already terrible guardian.

>Esoteric utility (option 1)

At face value this appears to be the best option, but at the same time having our only (in lieu of full empathic shock details coming out) offensive option being exponentially more difficult to improve as our TM reaches larger points on the scale is a little scary.

>Innocence/Compel

I'm hoping that these will still be able to be single targeted, the best value they have is shooing away those annoying lower level critters that inhabit the same areas as high level ones.

>>1) Will they have the ability to wield different types of weapons?

I can look into this. That may be a possibility for the different kinds of guardian spirit.

>>2)I hope they won't be parry focused

I can certainly see about them having shields

>>have an equal resistance to debilitation spells of the empath who is summoning them

Their power will be based off of the summoning Empath's TM, both offensively and defensively.

>>a broadly nerfed Guardian

I believe this is in reference to the options for the GS I laid out in my original post, specifically option one. That is, since option one is not a cyclic spell, it will be "nerfed" compared to option 3. Fewer bells and whistles and worse both offensively and defensively.

>>I'm hoping that these will still be able to be single targeted, the best value they have is shooing away those annoying lower level critters that inhabit the same areas as high level ones.

Compel will be, which is the spell which holds the former "shoo away" mechanic that used to reside in Innocence. Innocence is meant to completely prevent an Empath from being attacked by non-undead creatures so long as the Empath doesn't take aggressive actions, so it's not really possible to target it from what I am imagining. It's something that works on the Empath more than on some individual creature. Compel is what you want for crowd control.

Melete

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[Turmis] I'm about to shoot beards in the face

There will be exactly one type of guardian spirit with one weapon layout. However you can choose the other look flavors, they'll just still act the same.

As I put it to Melete, you can't come to the Empath guild expecting versatile death dealing options. They will be functional and for Empaths who seriously train TM have a higher capability than they can have now, but we made a decision in the past that Constructs are where Empaths get to participate the most in the combat system.

-Z

I haven't played an Empath in awhile. Does GS currently train TM when doing damage? Will it in the future?

Interesting. It's a lot to take in at once, so I'm kinda going to be organizing my thoughts as I go here.

Things I particularly like:

-Reliability out of Fountain of Creation
-The way Adaptive Curing is handled
-No fatigue zap from Raise Power
-Gift of Life actually boosts stamina
-More stat boosters
-Heart Link awesomeness

Things I dislike:

-Lethargy loses defense debuff
-Tranquility losing vs. Willpower defense :( Oh wait, it boosts Discipline though...maybe that's not so bad.

Things that surprised me but don't easily fall into either of the above categories:

-Aesandry Darlaeth remains cyclic
-There's not a whole lot of new effects

Questions I have:

-Heart Link acting like "vigil for vitality" means that vitality flows from whoever has the most at the moment to whoever has the least?
-Tranquility being a SvS barrier is a little confusing since that sort of contest designation won't exist anymore...it protects against anything that's vs. Fortitude?
-Awaken confuses me a little. Being a "battle spell" means that the duration of a self-cast will be much shorter, right? It'll also be quicker to cast on someone else in a pinch though, so that sounds like a wash (as long as it doesn't need a crapload of mana to actually have a chance of success, like it does now). Does "reduces duration on self" still guarantee clearing the unconscious state at maximum power?
-Does Innocence gain an actual duration greater than a few seconds?
-The asinine "but it doesn't work on undead, it makes them mad!" isn't mentioned anywhere (aside from Innocence just not keeping them at bay)...has that died a glorious death?
-Since similar effects won't be allowed to stack, how is Iron Constitution different from Manifest Force? Is it just that it's not weaker on a self-cast? Does it not become worse at reducing damage as the duration progresses or after it fires?
-Does Compel still despawn creatures, or is it just a "leave the room and don't come back" thing?
-What does "Empathy-related flavor" mean for Tranquility? Different messaging based on Empathy ranks or something?

My thoughts on Guardian Spirit:

I'm leaning toward option (2), the purely defensive version. I don't really understand why that one would be based on TM, though, if it isn't going to attack at all. I suppose if I have to choose between an extremely weak (because my TM is lightyears behind) attacker or an extremely easy-to-kill bodyguard, the crappy attacker at least has a small amount of utility, so I should probably choose (1). I'd never use a cyclic summon given the other two cyclics we have to choose from. I have a feeling I'll just end up not picking this spell.


Overall, it looks pretty good I'd say.

Thanks,
-Death's Nemesis Karthor

THE UGLY / GUARDIAN SPIRIT:

First I'll explain my position - I'm not speaking for any other empath.

1. My utility of guardian spirits is ENTIRELY for offense in non-construct situations.

2. My defenses are multiple times higher than my offenses. My TM will never, ever, ever catch my evasion.

3. If I were to start a new empath today, and focus on TM in combat, my evasion would still ultimately outpace my TM.

4. For the defensive utility of a GS to be useful to me, they would have to have an extreme defense bonus (not a bit, or somewhat) higher than my TM. They would have to be able to block spells and ranged attacks from players and from multiple opponents during invasions. Anything else, even as I focus on raising TM, will never be of any utility to me.


Option 1: -50
If their OF is only 2/3 of my TM, they are useless to me outside of killing characters and critters that pose no threat to me whatsoever. If I'm rocking 700+ defenses (to go with my 700 target), I really don't need a 450 OF GS.

With their defenses 'a bit' higher than my offense, I could not train in a way that would make them defensively more potent than me, even if I started a new empath today with TM in mind.

Option 2: -100
No offense for a TM based spell... I have nothing constructive to say about this option.

Option 3: -3
I could theoretically live with this model depending on the costs. I still go from 'very excited about GS rewrite despite having to train 400+ ranks of TM' to 'not excited about GS rewrite'.

Option 4: +5

Esoteric utility with OFF and DEF based straight off of TM OR DEF only based on a % of empathy skill capped at 200 ranks, whichever is greater.

1.You're already asking the most dedicated combat empaths to backtrain hundreds of ranks of TM; a task that will not reap the benefits of an at-level GS for years.

2. Even new combat empaths focusing on TM would struggle to keep the GS at-level. A basic utility spell with a rank-for-rank correlation will be tough enough to keep up, even outside of my personal situation.

3. The GS has traditionally been an option for empaths that don't engage in combat at all. As such, there should be some minimal protection afforded to them based on empathy. I think it's wrong to exclude empaths who don't believe in combat. Their GS would only flex defensively.




~ Purehand

Pretty sure you're reading the no contest bit into that. Also, there's already several abilities that force people out of the room, including the current form of Innocence.

-Evran

Gay, geeky, and a little bit cheeky.

If it is an offensive spell, it will:

1) Contest barriers, skills and/or stats appropriately.
2) Not function in a safe room.

This is regardless of whether it's "nice" ("Please leave my room now.") or "not nice" (a fireball to the face).

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas

One thing I don't see on the list is can/can't be cast while shocked...hoping this means they all can? ::crossing fingers::

I'm interested in how this new concentration spell will interact with Manipulate, and if it will make the ability viable again. My impression is that this is at least partly a band-aid approach.

>>this is entirely the wrong forum to continue this conversation. If you want to talk Empath spells, stay here, if you want to talk Moon Mage spells -- they have a forum for that. -DR-RAESH

noted =)

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I'm not sure what situation Teleport or Moongate are expected to be used, if this is the case. Going to a place you've already been less than a few hours ago isn't very impressive in terms of utility.. -DANFORDS2

>>Lethargy - I did not see 'will remain the same' in the description. What if anything is being tweaked? Whatever effect makes it easier to hit critters is essential to my hunting. I would urge you to leave it untouched.

It should be what it says on the tin. You make a good point though. I'll ask about it. Vigor will be castable on others, though, so if nothing else you can buff yourself or whatever is attacking on your behalf instead of just debuffing the foe.

>>Mental Focus - Is it castable on others?

Yes.

>>Adaptive Curing - Can a powerful cast cure more than one ailment before dispelling?

It will act like a cast of cure disease or flush poison, not both at once, I don't think.

Melete

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[Turmis] I'm about to shoot beards in the face

>>One thing I don't see on the list is can/can't be cast while shocked...hoping this means they all can?

Some spells will be harder to cast when shocked, but will still work even when completely insensitive. Some will not work when completely insensitive. We're still hammering out the details as far as that goes.

Melete

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[Turmis] I'm about to shoot beards in the face

<<I really hate held mana spells and find them very annoying. Regernerate and AD are not fun spells for me. I hate not being able to use other spells while holding mana for the current one.

In Magic 3.0, cyclic spells are like held mana spells in that they require some mana every pulse, but they will be changing such that you can cast other spells at the same time. Ultimately they will be made more like bard enchantes.

Nikpack