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>>That's my opinion as well. Skills should exist for the utility of the skill itself. It should be okay to ignore a skill if it has no intrinsic value to you.<<
I mean, in all due respect, isn't that how it is already? If you have the skills, you can utilize them. You can already ignore a swath of skills that have no intrinsic value to you. What's the plan for already accumulated TDPs if you do whatever it is you are thinking of doing?
TDPs are an integral part of the game for many players.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
SQUANTO
TOTLIIO
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 07:34 PM CST
Seems to me like the problem is in the skillset (armor in this case) being garbage, not the training. Or is training all of your weapons (or many of them) or all of your magic skills or lore also going to be penalized? Seems pretty stupid IMO to penalize for training harder than someone who didnt. Unless you are planning to massively overhaul skill values and make ranks mean a whole lot more than they do to compensate for the TDP loss.
Either way, This seems like a path that is going to lead to many people leaving the game if it is done incorrectly. Just pointing that out.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 07:36 PM CST
>>Either way, This seems like a path that is going to lead to many people leaving the game if it is done incorrectly. Just pointing that out.
You know, I totally hear "I'm quitting/selling" arguments.
It's just not very long ago I watched someone deliver a, I kid you not, "I will take ~25 premium accounts with me unless you don't enforce harassment rules against me" argument. At that moment, like a spiritual awakening, I realized how little it actually moves me.
Any argument is going to need to be framed around why it's better or worse for the game. What you do with your wallet is totally on you.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
You know, I totally hear "I'm quitting/selling" arguments.
It's just not very long ago I watched someone deliver a, I kid you not, "I will take ~25 premium accounts with me unless you don't enforce harassment rules against me" argument. At that moment, like a spiritual awakening, I realized how little it actually moves me.
Any argument is going to need to be framed around why it's better or worse for the game. What you do with your wallet is totally on you.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
CATHLULU2
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 07:37 PM CST
I haven't read anywhere that you must train all skills to have a good character. Now what you are talking about is punishing those that have put the time in to train all the skills they can to service those who did not. Is that really the path of encouragement this game is going to take? Now if we are talking about PvP then the more tdps the better. Why is that? Because debilitation relies entirely on stat contests, skill is nowhere involved. That is the product of 3.0. The only way to win is to disable or avoid being disabled.
The fact that the game is so cookie cutter has nothing to do with how people train. It's because this mentality that all guilds should be able to do the same thing which removed a lot of the uniqueness of a lot of guilds with the exception of a few abilities here and there.
Removing tdps from those who went out of their way to train all the skills the GM's put into the game instead of fixing the core problem is pretty typical in DR. Throw a bandaid on it and make future promises.
CATHLULU2
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 07:43 PM CST
>>It's just not very long ago I watched someone deliver a, I kid you not, "I will take ~25 premium accounts with me unless you don't enforce harassment rules against me" argument. At that moment, >>like a spiritual awakening, I realized how little it actually moves me.
Did you really just compare someone wanting special treatment to people complaining that you want to change the fundamental way the game has worked since it's birth? I'm happy that someone threatening to cancel 25 premium accounts in a for profit game doesn't bother you. That speaks volumes about the business model.
UFTIM
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 07:44 PM CST
As a barb who has every weapon higher than any non primary skill, I'm probably going to be dramatically affected by this change.
But I still think it's very worthwhile. The pressure, even though it's silly, to train lots of weapons and armors for TDPs does make the game less fun. I'd love to train a heavy plate wearing Paladin for thematic reasons, but the power gamer in me hears the voice telling me I'm not playing optimally.
But I still think it's very worthwhile. The pressure, even though it's silly, to train lots of weapons and armors for TDPs does make the game less fun. I'd love to train a heavy plate wearing Paladin for thematic reasons, but the power gamer in me hears the voice telling me I'm not playing optimally.
TOTLIIO
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 07:45 PM CST
<<You know, I totally hear "I'm quitting/selling" arguments.
It's just not very long ago I watched someone deliver a, I kid you not, "I will take ~25 premium accounts with me unless you don't enforce harassment rules against me" argument. At that moment, like a spiritual awakening, I realized how little it actually moves me.
Any argument is going to need to be framed around why it's better or worse for the game. What you do with your wallet is totally on you.>>
Oh I think you are misreading what I said as a threat. I'm pointing out the reality that this is mostly going to affect your more hardcore player base who chooses to min-max and has less interest in RP and more interest in seeing large numbers and killing stuff. Maybe you don't care about that and feel that it makes the game better, and thats your school of thought and I can respect it. But the reality is you will lose subs with a massive sweeping change like that. I hope you have another spiritual awakening and think about that too and move with a careful, practiced hand. Not a gigantic mallet, which is what I fear you are wielding.
THAYET
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 07:46 PM CST
maybe y'all should wait to see how the numbers, which aren't even hammered down GM-side, shake out before threatening to ragequit
just sayin
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
just sayin
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
FAMEBRIGHT
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 07:53 PM CST
>This proposal was roundly met with distaste by the community rit large as you are taking away one of the only carrots left for a lot of people. Its your call obviously and not mine, but I can't see how this will lead to anything other than a lot of people walking away.
If raising stat points is the only fun thing about DR for some (or even a lot) of players, and the rest of the game is all stick... I would strongly advise those players stop playing DR at least for awhile. They are not getting their money's worth at all and their testimonials are probably driving away more players than they're attracting. That's just a bad time for everyone.
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
If raising stat points is the only fun thing about DR for some (or even a lot) of players, and the rest of the game is all stick... I would strongly advise those players stop playing DR at least for awhile. They are not getting their money's worth at all and their testimonials are probably driving away more players than they're attracting. That's just a bad time for everyone.
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
SARAGOS
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 08:16 PM CST
Honestly, I feel that this sort of change will be good for the game - getting a handle on TDP's and not making everyone train all skills to be optimal would be very nice. I even agree that if TDP's are the only reason you've trained something then that's likely a problem. This sort of change would also benefit my character, since I only train 6 weapons and wouldn't drop any of them, and I really wasted no time training 4 armors. So please don't think I'm a partisan here.
That said, there are a number of people that have been training all weapons since 3.0. They were playing the game presented to them, in the way that was the most effective, and it seems really unjust to me to take away the benefit of perhaps hundreds or more hours of training just because we may not like the way they were doing it, or even the people who are doing it. My suggestion would be to allow some sort of one-time conversion of perhaps some skills that fall outside the number that will benefit TDP's into a bonus pool for that skillset. So, for example, outside of masteries, parry, etc, if only 4 weapons will be eligible for TDP's, people could be allowed to convert a number of weapon skills down to 0 ranks and get a bonus pool to the weapon skillset in exchange.
- Saragos
That said, there are a number of people that have been training all weapons since 3.0. They were playing the game presented to them, in the way that was the most effective, and it seems really unjust to me to take away the benefit of perhaps hundreds or more hours of training just because we may not like the way they were doing it, or even the people who are doing it. My suggestion would be to allow some sort of one-time conversion of perhaps some skills that fall outside the number that will benefit TDP's into a bonus pool for that skillset. So, for example, outside of masteries, parry, etc, if only 4 weapons will be eligible for TDP's, people could be allowed to convert a number of weapon skills down to 0 ranks and get a bonus pool to the weapon skillset in exchange.
- Saragos
URITEL
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 08:20 PM CST
As someone who trains a lot of useless stuff in order to maximize TDPs, I'm in favor of something like this. I do not believe that someone training 10 different types of weapons should be substantially better than someone who focuses on just three. I do think that a bit better or maybe even somewhat better.. but I think the actual skills should be more of the factor there than the stats accrued from training many different weapons/armors/etc but are all at a similar skill range.
I'd be in favor of a system working like this:
Top three skills in each skillset give 2x TDPs than they give right now.
The following top two skills (after the top three [so #4 and #5) in each skillset give 0.5x TDPs than what they give right now.
The rest give 0.2x TDPs than what they give right now.
This means the people who a) play less and/or b) RP more aren't at such a disadvantage stat wise vs the people who train exponentially more than they do. However, those that train more will still benefit more (the gap just won't be nearly as large.)
This would also help fix the NMU vs MU tdp gap that we currently have.
I would also think that this would be a good time to introduce an experience drain reward.. first few hours each week players get 300% experience drain (or maybe instead a higher gain from each drain), then 200%, then 100%.. then when you're trickling down to 50+ hours a week you're instead learning at a 75% rate.
Again, people who play/train more will still GET more, just the gap won't be as LARGE all the time. Because, well.. it's still a game, so maybe focus on that more than it being a job? IDK. I understand that's a far reaching idea for some of the posters on this forum.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 08:26 PM CST
>>I would also think that this would be a good time to introduce an experience drain reward.. first few hours each week players get 300% experience drain (or maybe instead a higher gain from each drain), then 200%, then 100%.. then when you're trickling down to 50+ hours a week you're instead learning at a 75% rate.
GS4 has something sort of like this and we have been taking notes. I donno if/when/how but it has been on our radar.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
GS4 has something sort of like this and we have been taking notes. I donno if/when/how but it has been on our radar.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
FAMEBRIGHT
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 08:34 PM CST
>I would also think that this would be a good time to introduce an experience drain reward.. first few hours each week players get 300% experience drain (or maybe instead a higher gain from each drain), then 200%, then 100%.. then when you're trickling down to 50+ hours a week you're instead learning at a 75% rate
Just recycle the mindstate messaging to keep track of it!
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
Just recycle the mindstate messaging to keep track of it!
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
URITEL
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 08:37 PM CST
>>GS4 has something sort of like this and we have been taking notes. I donno if/when/how but it has been on our radar.
It's like this in a lot of games as well, to, well.. encourage people to play and not discourage the people that don't have as much time to play. But yeah, the fact that it's offered in a game in the same COMPANY of DragonRealms but not offered here is a bit of sadface.
I like the TDP direction but I don't think "nerfing" it down to giving NOTHING for those that want to game "the game" is the best idea. Making it 0.2x tdp rate though gives enough of an edge to maybe make them happy (or whine less) while encouraging others to participate more and not feel like they're falling behind.
As far as the meltdown of certain people feeling like they're getting nerfed from this ordeal I kind of see it as a scenario like this:
uritel: the government decides to hand out a large sum of money to the population
uritel: the rich each get $100
uritel: middle class $300
uritel: poor $1000
uritel: rich people are like: "WE GOT SCREWED"
uritel: "TIME TO LEAVE THE USA"
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 07:18 PM CST
>>If the only (or primary) carrot for training a skill is TDPs, that's an indictment of the skill and not an argument for leaving runaway skill-based TDP generation untouched.
That's my opinion as well. Skills should exist for the utility of the skill itself. It should be okay to ignore a skill if it has no intrinsic value to you.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
That's my opinion as well. Skills should exist for the utility of the skill itself. It should be okay to ignore a skill if it has no intrinsic value to you.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
DR-RAESH
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 05:57 PM CST
>>However, at this stage of the game, it doesn't sound like Simu or the GMs have the stomach for the outrage that would come with capping TDPs or restricting the number of skills that grant TDPs.
The intention with 3.0 was to do exactly that. The outrage from the playerbase was... intense.
I still think people would enjoy the game more had we done that. With the existing system it's clearly the "optimal" way to play the game is to train everything to maximize TDP gain, even at the expense of fun. Many players will feel engage in unfun gameplay if they see it as giving them an advantage even at the expense of their enjoyment. This is much the same thing that the new EXP system was suppose to resolve, but mostly failed at. (Time spent RPing is time lost gaining skills etc.)
I know Mark Rosewater has written an article (Or a podcast? I think it was a podcast) that expands on this topic if someone wants to dig it up.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
The intention with 3.0 was to do exactly that. The outrage from the playerbase was... intense.
I still think people would enjoy the game more had we done that. With the existing system it's clearly the "optimal" way to play the game is to train everything to maximize TDP gain, even at the expense of fun. Many players will feel engage in unfun gameplay if they see it as giving them an advantage even at the expense of their enjoyment. This is much the same thing that the new EXP system was suppose to resolve, but mostly failed at. (Time spent RPing is time lost gaining skills etc.)
I know Mark Rosewater has written an article (Or a podcast? I think it was a podcast) that expands on this topic if someone wants to dig it up.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 06:32 PM CST
I will simply say, again, that TDPs are a problem to be fixed. I have a different stomach lining than Socharis did.
More details will be forthcoming when they're closer to iron-clad.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
More details will be forthcoming when they're closer to iron-clad.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
DISCOTEQ21
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 06:39 PM CST
Armifer can you please give a hint as to what you are thinking? I think everyone at endgame would want to know or is going to freak out.
Don't forget to vote for dragonrealms:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
Don't forget to vote for dragonrealms:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 06:44 PM CST
>>Armifer can you please give a hint as to what you are thinking? I think everyone at endgame would want to know or is going to freak out.
The bare bones summary is "Reduction in skills contributing to TDPs, increase in TDPs awarded per skill."
Actual numbers/skills/etc are still under discussion.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
The bare bones summary is "Reduction in skills contributing to TDPs, increase in TDPs awarded per skill."
Actual numbers/skills/etc are still under discussion.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
DBABIASH
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 06:46 PM CST
>>I still think people would enjoy the game more had we done that. With the existing system it's clearly the "optimal" way to play the game is to train everything to maximize TDP gain, even at the expense of fun. Many players will feel engage in unfun gameplay if they see it as giving them an advantage even at the expense of their enjoyment.
I know I fall into this category. I know those in favor of the current system like to point out that no one is forcing people to train as many different skills as they can, but as you point out, a lot of us will do what we need to do in order to make our characters optimal, and we'll sacrifice from other places in order to do so. There would be very, very few players training multiple armor types if it weren't for the TDPs. I can't think of a character I have that would train more than 2, and most of them would train just 1 (along with defending and shield of course). Honestly, though I still think TDPs need to be fixed for balance and gameplay reasons, the armor skillset is really the only place I feel stupid for training the way I do. I can't remember what GM it was or is, or the quote exactly, but I fully agree that we shouldn't be expected to do anything no sane adventurer would do in order to advance in the game. Clown suits is literally at the top of my list.
>>I will simply say, again, that TDPs are a problem to be fixed. I have a different stomach lining than Socharis did.
Woo.
I know I fall into this category. I know those in favor of the current system like to point out that no one is forcing people to train as many different skills as they can, but as you point out, a lot of us will do what we need to do in order to make our characters optimal, and we'll sacrifice from other places in order to do so. There would be very, very few players training multiple armor types if it weren't for the TDPs. I can't think of a character I have that would train more than 2, and most of them would train just 1 (along with defending and shield of course). Honestly, though I still think TDPs need to be fixed for balance and gameplay reasons, the armor skillset is really the only place I feel stupid for training the way I do. I can't remember what GM it was or is, or the quote exactly, but I fully agree that we shouldn't be expected to do anything no sane adventurer would do in order to advance in the game. Clown suits is literally at the top of my list.
>>I will simply say, again, that TDPs are a problem to be fixed. I have a different stomach lining than Socharis did.
Woo.
BADGOPHER
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 07:03 PM CST
>The bare bones summary is "Reduction in skills contributing to TDPs, increase in TDPs awarded per skill."
If this works out the way I hope it does, I'll be excited. I don't really relish having to train 50 weapons and 400 armors and 20 magics to farm TDPs, and it encourages a bland 'sameness' for characters that I've always thought was sad.
If this works out the way I hope it does, I'll be excited. I don't really relish having to train 50 weapons and 400 armors and 20 magics to farm TDPs, and it encourages a bland 'sameness' for characters that I've always thought was sad.
DISCOTEQ21
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 07:08 PM CST
This proposal was roundly met with distaste by the community rit large as you are taking away one of the only carrots left for a lot of people. Its your call obviously and not mine, but I can't see how this will lead to anything other than a lot of people walking away.
>>Armifer can you please give a hint as to what you are thinking? I think everyone at endgame would want to know or is going to freak out.
The bare bones summary is "Reduction in skills contributing to TDPs, increase in TDPs awarded per skill."
Actual numbers/skills/etc are still under discussion.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino>>>>>
Don't forget to vote for dragonrealms:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
>>Armifer can you please give a hint as to what you are thinking? I think everyone at endgame would want to know or is going to freak out.
The bare bones summary is "Reduction in skills contributing to TDPs, increase in TDPs awarded per skill."
Actual numbers/skills/etc are still under discussion.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino>>>>>
Don't forget to vote for dragonrealms:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
ISHARON
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 07:16 PM CST
>>Discoteq21: This proposal was roundly met with distaste by the community rit large as you are taking away one of the only carrots left for a lot of people. Its your call obviously and not mine, but I can't see how this will lead to anything other than a lot of people walking away.
If the only (or primary) carrot for training a skill is TDPs, that's an indictment of the skill and not an argument for leaving runaway skill-based TDP generation untouched.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Paladin new player guide: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Paladin_new_player_guide
Armor and shield player guide: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Armor_and_shield_playe
If the only (or primary) carrot for training a skill is TDPs, that's an indictment of the skill and not an argument for leaving runaway skill-based TDP generation untouched.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Paladin new player guide: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Paladin_new_player_guide
Armor and shield player guide: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Armor_and_shield_playe
DBABIASH
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 08:44 PM CST
>>My suggestion would be to allow some sort of one-time conversion of perhaps some skills that fall outside the number that will benefit TDP's into a bonus pool for that skillset. So, for example, outside of masteries, parry, etc, if only 4 weapons will be eligible for TDP's, people could be allowed to convert a number of weapon skills down to 0 ranks and get a bonus pool to the weapon skillset in exchange.
I think that is completely fair. You spent all this time working X extra skills just for the TDPs, so now you have the option to make it as if you had been training the fewer skills all along. No time investment lost.
I'd like to add my voice to those in favor of any sort of change to the TDP system, since those opposed always seem so loud. There are a lot of us who put up with the way things are now for years and years, we're paying customers too. The difference between those who like it now, and those who want it to change, is some of those who like it now threaten to quit if anything changes. Whereas those who want to see it change have put up with a system we don't like for years, and keep playing anyway because we love everything else in aggregate more.
I think what the largest issue here is, really, is that those who are close to circle and skill caps have nothing else to do. They have a sense of progression by training more and more skills, and getting more and more TDPs, while stockpiling obscene amounts of coin along the way. I don't know if there is a better model for it, but MMOs have an end-game gear progressions gotten through grinding raids. It seems to work to keep those players coming back for more month after month, even after they reached the level cap a week after the last level-cap increase came out.
I think that is completely fair. You spent all this time working X extra skills just for the TDPs, so now you have the option to make it as if you had been training the fewer skills all along. No time investment lost.
I'd like to add my voice to those in favor of any sort of change to the TDP system, since those opposed always seem so loud. There are a lot of us who put up with the way things are now for years and years, we're paying customers too. The difference between those who like it now, and those who want it to change, is some of those who like it now threaten to quit if anything changes. Whereas those who want to see it change have put up with a system we don't like for years, and keep playing anyway because we love everything else in aggregate more.
I think what the largest issue here is, really, is that those who are close to circle and skill caps have nothing else to do. They have a sense of progression by training more and more skills, and getting more and more TDPs, while stockpiling obscene amounts of coin along the way. I don't know if there is a better model for it, but MMOs have an end-game gear progressions gotten through grinding raids. It seems to work to keep those players coming back for more month after month, even after they reached the level cap a week after the last level-cap increase came out.
URITEL
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 08:47 PM CST
Because of posts being merged into this thread, I encourage people to read back a little bit since some of the old posts (compare timestamps) are now showing up as the "newer" posts.. and some of the actual newer posts (based on timestamp) might get missed.
Like my previous one, for example. Not that I'm being selfish or anything..
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 08:51 PM CST
I ended up deleting one of my own posts, simply because it no longer made sense out of context of what I was responding to.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
NINEVAH1
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 08:59 PM CST
My only issue with this is how the TDPs that were earned from skills that will no longer earn TDPs, or earn less TDPs, will be handled. Are characters that have trained all skills into high ranks going to go into a TDP debt like the plan from 3.0 had them doing? Having my main go negative tens of thousands of TDPs would be pretty upsetting.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 09:03 PM CST
Thanks to Javac for doing math so I didn't have to:
Right now you can potentially gain up to 792,486 TDPs.
The big question isn't "Should less skills apply to TDPs?" The question we should be asking is "What happens to the number 792,486?"
I don't have an answer to that yet and while I'm happy to read opinions about it, nothing should be presumed yet.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
Right now you can potentially gain up to 792,486 TDPs.
The big question isn't "Should less skills apply to TDPs?" The question we should be asking is "What happens to the number 792,486?"
I don't have an answer to that yet and while I'm happy to read opinions about it, nothing should be presumed yet.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
FAMEBRIGHT
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 09:12 PM CST
So who has the math on hand for what maximum stats are with 792,486 TDPs?
Is staff still looking at the stat paradigm in general? Is this conversation about how many stat points you should have and when?
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
Is staff still looking at the stat paradigm in general? Is this conversation about how many stat points you should have and when?
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 09:14 PM CST
I was just telling another GM that I'm prepared to wait and deal with the issue of runaway stat growth another year. I'm not happy with it but I'm willing to live with it, possibly forever if we make certain adjustments to how stats are used in our systems.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
ILLIENA
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 09:16 PM CST
> Thanks to Javac for doing math so I didn't have to:
> Right now you can potentially gain up to 792,486 TDPs.
Might want to double check those numbers.
5217501751/400 + 8*50 + 141*100 + (150*151/2 - 1) + 600 = 424776
> Right now you can potentially gain up to 792,486 TDPs.
Might want to double check those numbers.
5217501751/400 + 8*50 + 141*100 + (150*151/2 - 1) + 600 = 424776
ILLIENA
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 09:17 PM CST
> 52 * 1750 * 1751/400 + 8*50 + 141*100 + (150*151/2 - 1) + 600 = 424776
Stupid forums messing up my post...
Stupid forums messing up my post...
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 09:20 PM CST
It is possible we made a mistake, but it is also possible that GSL Math is giving a fundamentally different answer than Actual Math. I believe the number we came up with is from a practical test ("Set all numbers appropriately and have it recalc TDPs.")
For purposes of our discussion we can just call it X, though.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
For purposes of our discussion we can just call it X, though.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 09:20 PM CST
Totally armchairing it here, I feel like the "we need to make sure the TDPs equal out the same" stance is less for game balance and more so people don't think they're worse as a result of the change.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
DR-JAVAC
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 09:21 PM CST
>Thanks to Javac for doing math so I didn't have to:
>Might want to double check those numbers.
In all honesty, I didn't do the math. I used GM hax. Also, for a human 10 -> 100 costs 14,715 and 10 -> 200 costs 238,965. Raising one skill 0 -> 1750 grants 7660 TDPs, currently.
Javac
That one guy
If you have questions or comments in regard to this post please email me at DR-JAVAC@play.net.
>Might want to double check those numbers.
In all honesty, I didn't do the math. I used GM hax. Also, for a human 10 -> 100 costs 14,715 and 10 -> 200 costs 238,965. Raising one skill 0 -> 1750 grants 7660 TDPs, currently.
Javac
That one guy
If you have questions or comments in regard to this post please email me at DR-JAVAC@play.net.
THAYET
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 09:23 PM CST
If stats of that level are genuinely only a boon to PvP (a claim I find dubious, but hey) then a net loss in TDPs on the highest ends won't really affect very much anyway since it's already allegedly irrelevant in PvE and all the other PvPers of the same level will lose roughly the same amounts, ensuring parity more or less.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
URITEL
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 09:23 PM CST
I came up with..
Total TDPs: 398352
Total Ranks: 91000
Skill Average: 1750
Skills Included: 52
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 09:24 PM CST
>>Totally armchairing it here, I feel like the "we need to make sure the TDPs equal out the same" stance is less for game balance and more so people don't think they're worse as a result of the change.
That's completely correct, but it is a concession I'm willing to make if necessary. The goal is to reduce the burden on optimal play into something that is less time-consuming and also more heavily rewards an "organic" style of still growth (insofar as skill growth is ever organic). The actual implications of X TDPs on stat growth is something we can approach in other ways if necessary, and can be an entirely separate conversation if it helps keep things here clearer and less panicky.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
That's completely correct, but it is a concession I'm willing to make if necessary. The goal is to reduce the burden on optimal play into something that is less time-consuming and also more heavily rewards an "organic" style of still growth (insofar as skill growth is ever organic). The actual implications of X TDPs on stat growth is something we can approach in other ways if necessary, and can be an entirely separate conversation if it helps keep things here clearer and less panicky.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 09:30 PM CST
>>If stats of that level are genuinely only a boon to PvP (a claim I find dubious, but hey)
IMO, in the context of PvE, and with the exception of SvS things, if stats enhance skill-based checks then you just need more skill to beat the check. Right now if you can't dodge X you can invest in more reflexes or train more evasion. Some people might argue that it's easier to train three more weapons two combat tiers down to get that reflex, but at the same time you could just train more evasion.
Really, the major advantage to boosting stats to win checks vs boosting skills to win checks is that it's easier to lock/drain 20 skills and get TDPs from those to pass a check than it is to really focus on training one skill really well (also, skills lock rather fast and drain rather slow, so why not make the most of your time).
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
IMO, in the context of PvE, and with the exception of SvS things, if stats enhance skill-based checks then you just need more skill to beat the check. Right now if you can't dodge X you can invest in more reflexes or train more evasion. Some people might argue that it's easier to train three more weapons two combat tiers down to get that reflex, but at the same time you could just train more evasion.
Really, the major advantage to boosting stats to win checks vs boosting skills to win checks is that it's easier to lock/drain 20 skills and get TDPs from those to pass a check than it is to really focus on training one skill really well (also, skills lock rather fast and drain rather slow, so why not make the most of your time).
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
FAMEBRIGHT
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 09:33 PM CST
If keeping the stat ceiling where it is now is fine, it should just be easy(ish) enough to take the number of stat points someone should get per chunk-of-circling-requirements and do the math backwards. Or something. I moved to Dragonrealms from Gemstone after it opened because there was no visible math to scare me.
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
