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URITEL
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 09:35 PM CST
>>"we need to make sure the TDPs equal out the same" stance is less for game balance and more so people don't think they're worse as a result of the change
I don't think it needs to come out the same, but I do agree that players getting something from all the skills they have actively been grinding for X numbers of years would be in the best interests of the community. It's literally time out of their lives that they were doing XYZ (because of the direction of the game that had been molded for them) to better their character, only to have it years later come back and potentially be for naught. I can see people's viewpoints on potentially quitting.. not just because of this, but also the concern of "Well in whatever direction we're going now, will it again be for nothing in five or seven years when new people want to change the direction then, too?"
This is usually where I would mention "Well do you think DR is a good time investment in the first place?" but that's a different story entirely.
I'm pretty steadfast (in favor of) TDPs changing, getting the most out of a few skills but still getting some out of the rest. Even if they are at a quarter of what they are worth now.
FAMEBRIGHT
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 09:43 PM CST
>Really, the major advantage to boosting stats to win checks vs boosting skills to win checks is that it's easier to lock/drain 20 skills and get TDPs from those to pass a check than it is to really focus on training one skill really well...
There's a hard limit on how fast you can train a skill, so the easiest and most optimal way is to focus on training on 20 skills really well. Which is to say that usually I can raise Reflex faster than I can raise Evasion, because there is a limit on how fast I can learn evasion, but the restriction on how fast I can raise reflex is more generous.
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
There's a hard limit on how fast you can train a skill, so the easiest and most optimal way is to focus on training on 20 skills really well. Which is to say that usually I can raise Reflex faster than I can raise Evasion, because there is a limit on how fast I can learn evasion, but the restriction on how fast I can raise reflex is more generous.
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
SHAWN255
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 10:14 PM CST
All I can say is that this can't happen soon enough. Thanks to the GMs working on this.
I know some people really hate the idea (the other thread on it was pretty ridiculous)
But as it has been said.. For the game itself, the better design doesn't force a player to train EVERYTHING in order to progress.
It is a far better design to let people train what fits their character (especially in a roleplaying game).
So thank you again for pushing forward with this! Even if I lose TDPs.. it will still be a better way to play the game. And if people still want to train lots of weapons.. nothing prevents them.
My question is if the plan is to only require 1 type of armor (would love to not have to cross train)? (not counting shield as a armor type)
I know some people really hate the idea (the other thread on it was pretty ridiculous)
But as it has been said.. For the game itself, the better design doesn't force a player to train EVERYTHING in order to progress.
It is a far better design to let people train what fits their character (especially in a roleplaying game).
So thank you again for pushing forward with this! Even if I lose TDPs.. it will still be a better way to play the game. And if people still want to train lots of weapons.. nothing prevents them.
My question is if the plan is to only require 1 type of armor (would love to not have to cross train)? (not counting shield as a armor type)
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 10:19 PM CST
>>players getting something from all the skills they have actively been grinding for X numbers of years would be in the best interests of the community
I think the argument is that they did get something: the ability to use X well. People shouldn't train outfitting so they are better at debilitation, or train small blunt so they can dodge better.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
I think the argument is that they did get something: the ability to use X well. People shouldn't train outfitting so they are better at debilitation, or train small blunt so they can dodge better.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
GORTEOUS
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 10:19 PM CST
The problem is not with TDPs earned; the problem is with lopsided generic combat that scales like crap and specialist abilities that do little more than their vanilla counterparts. People train everything because covering weak points is more efficient than reinforcing strong points, this is what people mean when they say that guilds lack uniqueness. Aside from SvS, stats past 100 don't mean jack.
I've said it once and I'll say it again - core combat is broken. A combat session is supposed to be over in 30-45 seconds, yet two players of near equal rank take upwards of 5 minutes to do any real damage to each other. At 1750, it's 10-15 minutes unless you are a Thief or Cleric.
The process for developing new abilities need to be templated and streamlined. Until this happens, every new combat release is going to be just like the last, just like it's been for the last 3 years - either DOA and worthless, or knee-jerk OP followed by a nerf into oblivion. The fact that so many new releases have been vertical OP rather than lateral shows how much of a problem this is.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
I've said it once and I'll say it again - core combat is broken. A combat session is supposed to be over in 30-45 seconds, yet two players of near equal rank take upwards of 5 minutes to do any real damage to each other. At 1750, it's 10-15 minutes unless you are a Thief or Cleric.
The process for developing new abilities need to be templated and streamlined. Until this happens, every new combat release is going to be just like the last, just like it's been for the last 3 years - either DOA and worthless, or knee-jerk OP followed by a nerf into oblivion. The fact that so many new releases have been vertical OP rather than lateral shows how much of a problem this is.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
THAYET
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 10:22 PM CST
I'd argue the problem is with both actually. That there are issues with combat scaling does not diminish that there are also issues with the TDP system. The latter probably severely compounds the former though.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
JWARK4
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 10:25 PM CST
I don't know if there is an argument for the way it is being better.
What my concern is what will happen with all those hours I spent training a skill that does nothing for me except to gain TDPs? Performance comes to mind.
Is this going to reward players who just circle chased and did not spent countless hours training everything and basically say to people who did train everything, "sorry, that was wasted time"?
This is all just speculation of course, it's hard for me to even say without knowing the details of how something like this would even be implemented but that is the concern that pops into my head when I hear things like this.
What my concern is what will happen with all those hours I spent training a skill that does nothing for me except to gain TDPs? Performance comes to mind.
Is this going to reward players who just circle chased and did not spent countless hours training everything and basically say to people who did train everything, "sorry, that was wasted time"?
This is all just speculation of course, it's hard for me to even say without knowing the details of how something like this would even be implemented but that is the concern that pops into my head when I hear things like this.
FAMEBRIGHT
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 10:31 PM CST
In a perfect world, PVP wouldn't use the PVE combat engine at all. But it's a PVE combat engine so your PVP tie-in was never going to get off the ground. I'm really equally tired of bandaid attempts trying to make it a PVP system at the cost of what could have been useful PVE development.
I expect making a good PVP game out of DR would mean a new game engine. Maybe you could make it a decent game but sheesh you're trying to mod Pokemon into Street Fighter. Let PVP die already and focus on DR's neglected core product.
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
I expect making a good PVP game out of DR would mean a new game engine. Maybe you could make it a decent game but sheesh you're trying to mod Pokemon into Street Fighter. Let PVP die already and focus on DR's neglected core product.
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
GORTEOUS
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 10:33 PM CST
>> I'd argue the problem is with both actually. That there are issues with combat scaling does not diminish that there are also issues with the TDP system. The latter probably severely compounds the former though.
The problems with TDPs are being overstated. I mentioned it above, covering weak points is more efficient than reinforcing strong points. This is a symptom of combat, not a condition in and of itself.
I've fought capped players 100k below my character in TDPs, there is very little difference. Maybe post-100-in-everything, it's less pronounced, but whatever there is, it's being exacerbated by the problems with core combat. In a fight against a player who actually stands a chance of winning, even with as many choices as Gort has, with as many cool support things as he can do, he realistic have so few options that it's ridiculous.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
The problems with TDPs are being overstated. I mentioned it above, covering weak points is more efficient than reinforcing strong points. This is a symptom of combat, not a condition in and of itself.
I've fought capped players 100k below my character in TDPs, there is very little difference. Maybe post-100-in-everything, it's less pronounced, but whatever there is, it's being exacerbated by the problems with core combat. In a fight against a player who actually stands a chance of winning, even with as many choices as Gort has, with as many cool support things as he can do, he realistic have so few options that it's ridiculous.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 10:36 PM CST
>>A combat session is supposed to be over in 30-45 seconds, yet two players of near equal rank take upwards of 5 minutes to do any real damage to each other.
A typical PvE combat session is supposed to be over in 30-45 seconds. I don't recall Kodius saying anything about PvP being that fast (could have just missed it!). Players are meant to be notably more durable, or else they'd be dying in PvE pretty quickly, too.
I might go so far to say that minor combat (you vs 4 goblins) is meant to be short, but major combat (you vs another player, you vs a boss, etc), is meant to be much longer. Otherwise killing a hard mob, or player, would be just a matter who lands the first hard hit.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
A typical PvE combat session is supposed to be over in 30-45 seconds. I don't recall Kodius saying anything about PvP being that fast (could have just missed it!). Players are meant to be notably more durable, or else they'd be dying in PvE pretty quickly, too.
I might go so far to say that minor combat (you vs 4 goblins) is meant to be short, but major combat (you vs another player, you vs a boss, etc), is meant to be much longer. Otherwise killing a hard mob, or player, would be just a matter who lands the first hard hit.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
SQUANTO
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 10:48 PM CST
I have to say I am with Gort on this one.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
GORTEOUS
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 11:01 PM CST
>> But it's a PVE combat engine so your PVP tie-in was never going to get off the ground.
"PvP is dead but nerf TDPs because some players are just too powerful."
>> I might go so far to say that minor combat (you vs 4 goblins) is meant to be short, but major combat (you vs another player, you vs a boss, etc), is meant to be much longer.
With all the discussions you've been a part of, the rage you've witnessed, and the sheer number of GM posts you've replied to/x-posted to Elanthipedia, you should know that this is clearly not the case.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
"PvP is dead but nerf TDPs because some players are just too powerful."
>> I might go so far to say that minor combat (you vs 4 goblins) is meant to be short, but major combat (you vs another player, you vs a boss, etc), is meant to be much longer.
With all the discussions you've been a part of, the rage you've witnessed, and the sheer number of GM posts you've replied to/x-posted to Elanthipedia, you should know that this is clearly not the case.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
URITEL
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 11:05 PM CST
I agree with Gort on the core combat side as well.
That being said I still think TDPs are important. Maybe meaning less towards the upper end when all stats require 1500+ per point, but obviously still important enough with the number of people still trying to squeeze out every last TDP they can.
I also find TDPs to be extraordinarily important in the mid range of characters. I'd probably say my most fun experiences (PVP wise) were in the 400-700 skill range. TDPs are very valuable there and make a significant difference due to disablers.
That being said, some of that could be because of what Gort said, core combat is broken.. so on the upper end it can be a PITA and boring. It could also be there are a lot more options of targets to choose from at the mid range than the upper end and fewer burnouts/bought characters that are closed and don't know how to play besides .script.
BAVESTTHEMADDEST
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 11:15 PM CST
Why do we have to do any changes? Why does the game have to do this or have to do that? It's doing now. It was doing 20 years ago and up until 5 years ago with the release of 3.0. I don't understand this infatuation with trying to even the playing field for something when it's clearly impossible to do so. If that's the goal then why do we have races and guilds? Why isn't everyone human, and we all have the same skills, ranks, stats and you can't do anything to change them? My character is nearly 20 years old. I've played him the way I wanted to and trained him the way I wanted to train him. I made choices when I chose his race and his guild. I've made choices all along the way in his development. Rarely have I ever complained. I've never asked for a handout. Why should I concede anything with my character? Why? I'm being asked to explain why I shouldn't have to. I don't think so. I need to have it explained to me why I should. All I'm hearing is, people want more for less and I'm expected to give up the time I've spent for them to have it.
Vote!
It does a toon good.
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
SHAWN255
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 11:16 PM CST
>>What my concern is what will happen with all those hours I spent training a skill that does nothing for me except to gain TDPs?
You will still be good at that skill. You shouldn't have had to train it in the first place, just for TDPs, if it did nothing for you. That was/is a horrible design.
You should train things because you want to or your guild requires it. If you want to branch out and be awesome at a ton of weapons.. kudos! If you don't... you shouldn't be penalized. And you definitely shouldn't have to wear a ton of different armor types just for TDPs.
>>The problems with TDPs are being overstated.
Frankly how useful TDPs aren't the issue for me. It is being forced to train a ridiculous amount of skills (that aren't even slightly balanced across skill sets) to maximize them is the issue. And if they weren't useful, people wouldn't train everything, but they do.
You will still be good at that skill. You shouldn't have had to train it in the first place, just for TDPs, if it did nothing for you. That was/is a horrible design.
You should train things because you want to or your guild requires it. If you want to branch out and be awesome at a ton of weapons.. kudos! If you don't... you shouldn't be penalized. And you definitely shouldn't have to wear a ton of different armor types just for TDPs.
>>The problems with TDPs are being overstated.
Frankly how useful TDPs aren't the issue for me. It is being forced to train a ridiculous amount of skills (that aren't even slightly balanced across skill sets) to maximize them is the issue. And if they weren't useful, people wouldn't train everything, but they do.
SHAWN255
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 11:19 PM CST
>>Why do we have to do any changes? Why does the game have to do this or have to do that? It's doing now. It was doing 20 years ago and up until 5 years ago with the release of 3.0. I don't understand this infatuation with trying to even the playing field for something when it's clearly impossible to do so. If that's the goal then why do we have races and guilds? Why isn't everyone human, and we all have the same skills, ranks, stats and you can't do anything to change them? My character is nearly 20 years old. I've played him the way I wanted to and trained him the way I wanted to train him. I made choices when I chose his race and his guild. I've made choices all along the way in his development. Rarely have I ever complained. I've never asked for a handout. Why should I concede anything with my character? Why? I'm being asked to explain why I shouldn't have to. I don't think so. I need to have it explained to me why I should. All I'm hearing is, people want more for less and I'm expected to give up the time I've spent for them to have it.
Umm.. why make new games? We had Pong! That should have been GG! why do MMOs add new areas? why can we now level to 150 and beyond when at one point you couldn't even hit 100... or get skills to 1750... or have Bards in the game at all.. etc etc etc...
Its a game. It is an online game. Online games evolve to improve the experience. It has been that way for 20+ years. Change is the only constant in life.
Umm.. why make new games? We had Pong! That should have been GG! why do MMOs add new areas? why can we now level to 150 and beyond when at one point you couldn't even hit 100... or get skills to 1750... or have Bards in the game at all.. etc etc etc...
Its a game. It is an online game. Online games evolve to improve the experience. It has been that way for 20+ years. Change is the only constant in life.
GORTEOUS
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 11:26 PM CST
>> If you don't... you shouldn't be penalized. And you definitely shouldn't have to wear a ton of different armor types just for TDPs.
You aren't being penalized and you don't have to wear 'a ton of different armor types just for TDPs'. In fact, you don't have to do any of that - your guild leader will confirm this. It's not like you can use 20 weapons at once anyways.
>> It is being forced to train a ridiculous amount of skills
So stop twisting your own arm, then.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
You aren't being penalized and you don't have to wear 'a ton of different armor types just for TDPs'. In fact, you don't have to do any of that - your guild leader will confirm this. It's not like you can use 20 weapons at once anyways.
>> It is being forced to train a ridiculous amount of skills
So stop twisting your own arm, then.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
WILTONQU
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 11:28 PM CST
curious how the TDP skills will be figured..... Will the skills that your guild requires be the TDP skills? If your guild only requires a small amount of a skill will there be skills with diminishing returns in regards to TDPs? say if your guild requires two Lore skills but requires 100 ranks of a third, do you get full tdps for all three or diminished returns for the third? Will TDP gain skills be tied to guild at all? I could see where it would make sense but just armchair pondering...
FAMEBRIGHT
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 11:28 PM CST
>"nerf TDPs because some players are just too powerful."
Nobody is talking (or cares) about this.
There's not even a nerf being talked about right now, just a straight conversion from X many skills you have to train to get max TDP growth going from 'all of them' to 'some of them.' (Though I'd prefer a nerf because the game really does lose some challenge from the number of TDPs you can grind out)
...ugh just thinking PVP is in DR makes me grumpy. To think Simutronics made Orb Wars.
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
Nobody is talking (or cares) about this.
There's not even a nerf being talked about right now, just a straight conversion from X many skills you have to train to get max TDP growth going from 'all of them' to 'some of them.' (Though I'd prefer a nerf because the game really does lose some challenge from the number of TDPs you can grind out)
...ugh just thinking PVP is in DR makes me grumpy. To think Simutronics made Orb Wars.
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
DISCOTEQ21
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 11:29 PM CST
I see 2 priblems off the top of my head.
1. It takes a long time to get good at a skill. This new game design promotes a min max approach where you have to guess at what skill is the win button perhaps many months from now. If you want to spend time being well rounded you are in a sense Nerfing yourself because you won't be moving up as fast. Sorry if I'm less than enthusiastic about game balance in dragonrealms as I've been around for a while , things change at the whim of who is in charge. I remember when all of a sudden all barbarians had to go from leather to plate for example.
2. This design will expedite true end game for many players. There are many players who will be in essence done with dragonrealms. There will be no carrot left to chase.
Don't forget to vote for dragonrealms:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
1. It takes a long time to get good at a skill. This new game design promotes a min max approach where you have to guess at what skill is the win button perhaps many months from now. If you want to spend time being well rounded you are in a sense Nerfing yourself because you won't be moving up as fast. Sorry if I'm less than enthusiastic about game balance in dragonrealms as I've been around for a while , things change at the whim of who is in charge. I remember when all of a sudden all barbarians had to go from leather to plate for example.
2. This design will expedite true end game for many players. There are many players who will be in essence done with dragonrealms. There will be no carrot left to chase.
Don't forget to vote for dragonrealms:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
DISCOTEQ21
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 11:31 PM CST
Meant to say from plate to leather for barbs.
Don't forget to vote for dragonrealms:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
RATHERDASHING
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 11:36 PM CST
Wow. The amount of anger over just the mention of a POSSIBLE change is insane. I guess 20 some-odd years is certainly enough to become very attached to the way things are though, I can see that. But in the grand scheme of things, this is fairly small change, and it would affect everyone relatively equally. I highly doubt there are many characters above level 50 in this game that don't train widely for TDPs, so really it just means the few people that don't train widely get a few extra TDPs, while those that trained EVERYTHING maybe have some TDP debt. And who knows, maybe there will be some sort of "TDP bonus pool", for those that lost out? It's way too early for people to start pointing fingers and demanding explanations, I think.
Can you imagine if this was like World of Warcraft? There have been I think 5 expansions now, and basically after each one, the slate is wiped clean. People put in insane amounts of time and effort to raid, acquire the best gear, get all the bragging rights... and then poof, next expansion comes, all that was a waste. Your big bad level 60 Blade-of-Doom is now worse than something rewarded by the first quest of the new expansion. I imagine some people still complain about it, but I think it's pretty much accepted now. Guess that's the difference, it was established early on that "this is the way its gonna go down", whereas here, the status quo has reigned supreme for sooooo long.
Also, I don't think the issue here is really people with too many TDPs being OP, it's about the fact that poor game design from waaaaay back encourages you to just train everything, RP be damned. My character wouldn't wear chain or leather armor, and certainly wouldn't swing a cutlass, or use a sling. But current design encourages this. A change like the one mentioned still allows someone who wants to train everything to do so, you just aren't double rewarded (you're already gaining ranks in the skill, the TDPs are just icing on the cake).
Can you imagine if this was like World of Warcraft? There have been I think 5 expansions now, and basically after each one, the slate is wiped clean. People put in insane amounts of time and effort to raid, acquire the best gear, get all the bragging rights... and then poof, next expansion comes, all that was a waste. Your big bad level 60 Blade-of-Doom is now worse than something rewarded by the first quest of the new expansion. I imagine some people still complain about it, but I think it's pretty much accepted now. Guess that's the difference, it was established early on that "this is the way its gonna go down", whereas here, the status quo has reigned supreme for sooooo long.
Also, I don't think the issue here is really people with too many TDPs being OP, it's about the fact that poor game design from waaaaay back encourages you to just train everything, RP be damned. My character wouldn't wear chain or leather armor, and certainly wouldn't swing a cutlass, or use a sling. But current design encourages this. A change like the one mentioned still allows someone who wants to train everything to do so, you just aren't double rewarded (you're already gaining ranks in the skill, the TDPs are just icing on the cake).
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 11:39 PM CST
>>Why do we have to do any changes?
Because bad design shouldn't remain bad design because it's been there long enough that people are begrudgingly comfortable with doing a dumb thing. Even in this thread you have people going "Why did I bother doing this dumb thing to begin with if others don't have to keep doing this dumb thing we all acknowledge is dumb."
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Because bad design shouldn't remain bad design because it's been there long enough that people are begrudgingly comfortable with doing a dumb thing. Even in this thread you have people going "Why did I bother doing this dumb thing to begin with if others don't have to keep doing this dumb thing we all acknowledge is dumb."
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
BAVESTTHEMADDEST
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 11:39 PM CST
>Umm.. why make new games? We had Pong! That should have been GG! why do MMOs add new areas? why >can we now level to 150 and beyond when at one point you couldn't even hit 100... or get skills to >1750... or have Bards in the game at all.. etc etc etc...
>Its a game. It is an online game. Online games evolve to improve the experience. It has been that >way for 20+ years. Change is the only constant in life.
Then go make a new game. Pong is still being played and enjoyed by those who choose to do so. You have not explained why my game that I've played for 20 years has to change. You're saying that you want it to change and so that's how it's going to be simply because change is the only constant in life? The only constant I've seen is, group A complains so things change. Group B complains so things change. Group C complains so things change. Group D sits back, tries to weather the changes and ultimately everyone is miserable because you can't please everybody!
Vote!
It does a toon good.
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
SHAWN255
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 11:39 PM CST
>>You aren't being penalized and you don't have to wear 'a ton of different armor types just for TDPs'.
In a game like DR.. where you can do something and get rewarded for it by making your character stronger.. if you don't do it, you are limiting the growth of your character.
Claiming anything else is just silly.
No. You don't have to do it. Just like you don't have to circle, or you don't have to train at all. But if you are looking to advance your character, currently the best way to do so is to train EVERYTHING. Saying anything else is just flat out denial.
In a game like DR.. where you can do something and get rewarded for it by making your character stronger.. if you don't do it, you are limiting the growth of your character.
Claiming anything else is just silly.
No. You don't have to do it. Just like you don't have to circle, or you don't have to train at all. But if you are looking to advance your character, currently the best way to do so is to train EVERYTHING. Saying anything else is just flat out denial.
SHAWN255
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 11:44 PM CST
>>I see 2 priblems off the top of my head.
1. No skill should be a 'win button'.. if one becomes one... that is a problem.
2. They can still level up skills.. nothing changes. If they were just chasing TDPs.. they would have been gone long before this.
>>Then go make a new game. Pong is still being played and enjoyed by those who choose to do so. You have not explained why my game that I've played for 20 years has to change. You're saying that you want it to change and so that's how it's going to be simply because change is the only constant in life? The only constant I've seen is, group A complains so things change. Group B complains so things change. Group C complains so things change. Group D sits back, tries to weather the changes and ultimately everyone is miserable because you can't please everybody!
DR has had a TON of changes made to it.. even very significant ones.. some of them made pretty recently... so your entire argument is just asinine. The game is so incredibly different than it was 20 years ago it isn't even close to the same game.
1. No skill should be a 'win button'.. if one becomes one... that is a problem.
2. They can still level up skills.. nothing changes. If they were just chasing TDPs.. they would have been gone long before this.
>>Then go make a new game. Pong is still being played and enjoyed by those who choose to do so. You have not explained why my game that I've played for 20 years has to change. You're saying that you want it to change and so that's how it's going to be simply because change is the only constant in life? The only constant I've seen is, group A complains so things change. Group B complains so things change. Group C complains so things change. Group D sits back, tries to weather the changes and ultimately everyone is miserable because you can't please everybody!
DR has had a TON of changes made to it.. even very significant ones.. some of them made pretty recently... so your entire argument is just asinine. The game is so incredibly different than it was 20 years ago it isn't even close to the same game.
SQUANTO
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 11:46 PM CST
It's a funny thing to me, this entire discussion. Only recently (within the past 3ish or so years) have people become obsessed with/more concerned with/more focused on training as many skills as humanly possible. The only thing really going through my head is: why do you suppose that is? I don't remember the game being like this before that period, to be honest.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
SHAWN255
Re: Development update request
02/16/2016 11:51 PM CST
>>It's a funny thing to me, this entire discussion. Only recently (within the past 3ish or so years) have people become obsessed with/more concerned with/more focused on training as many skills as humanly possible. The only thing really going through my head is: why do you suppose that is? I don't remember the game being like this before that period, to be honest.
Not true. Soim used to advocate it back in the 90s.
I think gamers in general have become more min/max in the last 10 years because of games like WoW where if you paid attention to the small details you could pull out a bit more DPS to achieve goals. Not saying it is a good thing.. but it is pretty typical for games these days... and the internet resources definitely help a lot more than they used to. Trying to find information like it is easy to find on Elanthipedia now, back in even the early 2000s was just not happening. But you can easily look that stuff up now.
Not true. Soim used to advocate it back in the 90s.
I think gamers in general have become more min/max in the last 10 years because of games like WoW where if you paid attention to the small details you could pull out a bit more DPS to achieve goals. Not saying it is a good thing.. but it is pretty typical for games these days... and the internet resources definitely help a lot more than they used to. Trying to find information like it is easy to find on Elanthipedia now, back in even the early 2000s was just not happening. But you can easily look that stuff up now.
SQUANTO
Re: Development update request
02/17/2016 12:04 AM CST
You pointed out a guy. I am talking about a population. If you remember, Codiax was the first guy to get all his weapons to 500 only a few years ago and it was this amazing ordeal (500 even then was not all that much in a weapon)! Nowadays, that's a lot more common. I remember like 1 trader trying to get all his weapons to 150 about 6 years ago and it was such an amazing undertaking... for anyone!
One major gateway is easier experience. The second is the safety in combat and much more ease of learning. The third may slightly have to do with less Lyras level storylines (not saying there are no storylines!!!). Stat points naturally went up when the limit on them was lifted. IDK, just some food for thought. You can probably expand even more on this stuff. New fancy weapons even make it more desirable to train yet another weapon! Nothing breaks permanently anymore, so that's good for armors and weapons, too. Hindrance was lowered on a mixed set. Yada yada yada...
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
One major gateway is easier experience. The second is the safety in combat and much more ease of learning. The third may slightly have to do with less Lyras level storylines (not saying there are no storylines!!!). Stat points naturally went up when the limit on them was lifted. IDK, just some food for thought. You can probably expand even more on this stuff. New fancy weapons even make it more desirable to train yet another weapon! Nothing breaks permanently anymore, so that's good for armors and weapons, too. Hindrance was lowered on a mixed set. Yada yada yada...
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
BAVESTTHEMADDEST
Re: Development update request
02/17/2016 12:13 AM CST
>DR has had a TON of changes made to it.. even very significant ones.. some of them made pretty >recently... so your entire argument is just asinine. The game is so incredibly different than it was >
>20 years ago it isn't even close to the same game.
Thank you. You have proven my point. Things have changed so much and who is happy with them? When will people learn to operate within the parameters given? You're never, ever, never going to please everyone. All that happens is a perpetual masking of what some conceive to be a problem. If you're trying to enjoy a game then quit looking for problems and enjoy the game. If things stayed just as they are right now, would you quit playing? If so then I have to ask, what was your reasoning for even starting to play in the first place?
Vote!
It does a toon good.
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
THAYET
Re: Development update request
02/17/2016 12:17 AM CST
>> Things have changed so much and who is happy with them?
I think DR is a way better game in many respects than it used to be.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
I think DR is a way better game in many respects than it used to be.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
ILLIENA
Re: Development update request
02/17/2016 12:18 AM CST
> Things have changed so much and who is happy with them?
Me, very much so.
Me, very much so.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Development update request
02/17/2016 12:22 AM CST
>>The only thing really going through my head is: why do you suppose that is? I don't remember the game being like this before that period, to be honest.
TBH I've heard of the concept of "sandbagging," where people trained non-circle reqs to boost TDPs higher than normal, ever since I focused more on training magic as a Paladin than actual combats. That was a solid decade+ ago. I don't think it's a new concept as much as it being proactively talked about/acknowledged as dumb thing being new.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
TBH I've heard of the concept of "sandbagging," where people trained non-circle reqs to boost TDPs higher than normal, ever since I focused more on training magic as a Paladin than actual combats. That was a solid decade+ ago. I don't think it's a new concept as much as it being proactively talked about/acknowledged as dumb thing being new.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
BAVESTTHEMADDEST
Re: Development update request
02/17/2016 12:25 AM CST
>I think DR is a way better game in many respects than it used to be.
Maybe, maybe not. Again, you're never going to please everyone. I admit that the crafting is neat, even though I don't use it or train for it. Why can't we get more new abilities or systems? How about more events that engage RP and such? What purpose does revamping the experience serve? What is the end goal? Why should I even consider giving up something I have so someone else can have? I've yet to hear a convincing reason other than, someone thinks it's broken or they're not happy with it. I am happy with it but, I guess my opinion doesn't matter.
Vote!
It does a toon good.
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
SHAWN255
Re: Development update request
02/17/2016 12:30 AM CST
>>You pointed out a guy. I am talking about a population.
It was something that came up in GEnie and early AOL days... it just wasn't practical unless you were stupid rich. (those bills still make me want to avoid my mom lol)
And like you said.. things work better these days.. the penalties aren't as bad.. they have streamlined a lot of skills, there is more information out there to help people know what IS the best way to get the most out of their character, etc etc etc.
I mean lets be real.. when DR started... most people didn't have cell phones and what we used to play DR on... are less powerful than the smartphones the majority of us carry around daily. Things have changed, especially how people game, so it isn't that surprising that more people want to get the best bang for their buck... and with the current system that means training EVERYTHING.
>>Things have changed so much and who is happy with them?
This game is FAR better as it is now. And there are a lot of things that still need to be improved.
It was something that came up in GEnie and early AOL days... it just wasn't practical unless you were stupid rich. (those bills still make me want to avoid my mom lol)
And like you said.. things work better these days.. the penalties aren't as bad.. they have streamlined a lot of skills, there is more information out there to help people know what IS the best way to get the most out of their character, etc etc etc.
I mean lets be real.. when DR started... most people didn't have cell phones and what we used to play DR on... are less powerful than the smartphones the majority of us carry around daily. Things have changed, especially how people game, so it isn't that surprising that more people want to get the best bang for their buck... and with the current system that means training EVERYTHING.
>>Things have changed so much and who is happy with them?
This game is FAR better as it is now. And there are a lot of things that still need to be improved.
THAYET
Re: Development update request
02/17/2016 12:36 AM CST
>> Why can't we get more new abilities or systems?
Several have been released just in the short time I've been back (a bit over a year). Some of them were quite large or robust, even. Crafting isn't really my cup of tea, but I'd be silly to not acknowledge them as fairly major systems that are continually being added.
>> How about more events that engage RP and such?
You should be the change you wish to see here. As important as events are, healthy communities based on mutual respect with other players rather than naked antagonism are even more so.
>> What purpose does revamping the experience serve?
A better, healthier game, with a lower barrier to entry for new players and characters. This is a problem, it's a problem I've heard echoed many times from people starting out and realizing how big the slog ahead of them is and how the systems are presently set up, even though those cries might be invisible to people because those new players generally just end up quietly quitting.
>> Why should I even consider giving up something I have so someone else can have?
You don't know that you're losing anything though. You'll still have your ranks either way. You don't know how the TDPs will shake out yet. So at this point it mainly sounds like you're bitter that other people may get a leg up in the interests of game balance, which is astonishingly self-centered.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
Several have been released just in the short time I've been back (a bit over a year). Some of them were quite large or robust, even. Crafting isn't really my cup of tea, but I'd be silly to not acknowledge them as fairly major systems that are continually being added.
>> How about more events that engage RP and such?
You should be the change you wish to see here. As important as events are, healthy communities based on mutual respect with other players rather than naked antagonism are even more so.
>> What purpose does revamping the experience serve?
A better, healthier game, with a lower barrier to entry for new players and characters. This is a problem, it's a problem I've heard echoed many times from people starting out and realizing how big the slog ahead of them is and how the systems are presently set up, even though those cries might be invisible to people because those new players generally just end up quietly quitting.
>> Why should I even consider giving up something I have so someone else can have?
You don't know that you're losing anything though. You'll still have your ranks either way. You don't know how the TDPs will shake out yet. So at this point it mainly sounds like you're bitter that other people may get a leg up in the interests of game balance, which is astonishingly self-centered.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
RATHERDASHING
Re: Development update request
02/17/2016 12:37 AM CST
<<It's a funny thing to me, this entire discussion. Only recently (within the past 3ish or so years) have people become obsessed with/more concerned with/more focused on training as many skills as humanly possible. The only thing really going through my head is: why do you suppose that is? I don't remember the game being like this before that period, to be honest.>>
I'd wager you can trace it back to the elimination of mind murk. You literally could not train all the skills! (or it was much more difficult? my mind is a bit murky on that system...) back when that existed. Think that went away about 6 years ago, perhaps? Most people probably didn't adjust the way they trained right away, but then slowly a few people did, and then more and more people realized what the new, most efficient method was; train everything.
And heck, while we're on the topic... so if change is so bad, we should have left that in place, right? A mechanic that was in place from 1996 - 2009, and yet they tore that sucker right out. Where was the outrage there? I can only imagine how I would have been laughed at, had I been around then, and championed for mind murk to stay around.
I'd wager you can trace it back to the elimination of mind murk. You literally could not train all the skills! (or it was much more difficult? my mind is a bit murky on that system...) back when that existed. Think that went away about 6 years ago, perhaps? Most people probably didn't adjust the way they trained right away, but then slowly a few people did, and then more and more people realized what the new, most efficient method was; train everything.
And heck, while we're on the topic... so if change is so bad, we should have left that in place, right? A mechanic that was in place from 1996 - 2009, and yet they tore that sucker right out. Where was the outrage there? I can only imagine how I would have been laughed at, had I been around then, and championed for mind murk to stay around.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Development update request
02/17/2016 12:38 AM CST
>>Why can't we get more new abilities or systems?
Define new system, because I'd consider things like the introduction of elemental/draining flares as a new system for DR. And the rat/kitten pets, which are a lot more robust than the pets of a few years ago. And then there are things like tier unlocks, which I feel is a game changer for how things can be introduced into the game.
>>How about more events that engage RP and such?
I don't necessarily go to my gastroenterologist to ask why my knee hurts.
>>What purpose does revamping the experience serve?
To fix something even the people who promote it feel is dumb.
>>What is the end goal?
To not incentivize turning the game into a chore.
>>Why should I even consider giving up something I have so someone else can have?
Seriously question: do you really enjoy feeling like you have to wear random bits of armor to maximize your TDP gains, train weapons you really have no interest in training to get every drop of TDPs from that skillset, etc? Wouldn't you just want to train the weapons you want to train because you like what they do and that you feel fit your character? Would you prefer a game that has to eventually scale to a playerbase's culture of maximizing TDP gain, or would you rather systems not require you to train all those skills unrelated to what you're doing just so you feel you have the stats to use that skill appropriately?
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Define new system, because I'd consider things like the introduction of elemental/draining flares as a new system for DR. And the rat/kitten pets, which are a lot more robust than the pets of a few years ago. And then there are things like tier unlocks, which I feel is a game changer for how things can be introduced into the game.
>>How about more events that engage RP and such?
I don't necessarily go to my gastroenterologist to ask why my knee hurts.
>>What purpose does revamping the experience serve?
To fix something even the people who promote it feel is dumb.
>>What is the end goal?
To not incentivize turning the game into a chore.
>>Why should I even consider giving up something I have so someone else can have?
Seriously question: do you really enjoy feeling like you have to wear random bits of armor to maximize your TDP gains, train weapons you really have no interest in training to get every drop of TDPs from that skillset, etc? Wouldn't you just want to train the weapons you want to train because you like what they do and that you feel fit your character? Would you prefer a game that has to eventually scale to a playerbase's culture of maximizing TDP gain, or would you rather systems not require you to train all those skills unrelated to what you're doing just so you feel you have the stats to use that skill appropriately?
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
BAVESTTHEMADDEST
Re: Development update request
02/17/2016 12:40 AM CST
If you're voting for more change to previously changed systems then you're not happy with the change. Sugar coat it as much as you want with saying it's a far better game or however you like. The point is, why keep changing things? Why does it have to change? I want things as they are left alone and new development. You want something that makes you happy, create instead of change and take away from others. There is only 1 argument for change and it completely ignores what others feel, want or think. Why aren't boats fixed? Oh, that's right...........
Vote!
It does a toon good.
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
IAMTHEWALRUS
Re: Development update request
02/17/2016 12:48 AM CST
>>I'd wager you can trace it back to the elimination of mind murk. You literally could not train all the skills! (or it was much more difficult? my mind is a bit murky on that system...) back when that existed.
Very frozen but alert was the worst I personally remember. Which was certainly an interesting approach to prevent people from training and highly encourage them to go role play heh.
>>Think that went away about 6 years ago, perhaps? Most people probably didn't adjust the way they trained right away, but then slowly a few people did, and then more and more people realized what the new, most efficient method was; train everything.
That seems likely, not to mention when the removal of wall ranks and gaining the same amount of experience regardless of mind state, Learning draining as well as Mind Lock these days by way of comparison to Mind Lock of old being the biggest drain possible.
- Anuind Silverspruce
Any drunken idiot can fall off a bar stool, a real man rides it to the ground.
Very frozen but alert was the worst I personally remember. Which was certainly an interesting approach to prevent people from training and highly encourage them to go role play heh.
>>Think that went away about 6 years ago, perhaps? Most people probably didn't adjust the way they trained right away, but then slowly a few people did, and then more and more people realized what the new, most efficient method was; train everything.
That seems likely, not to mention when the removal of wall ranks and gaining the same amount of experience regardless of mind state, Learning draining as well as Mind Lock these days by way of comparison to Mind Lock of old being the biggest drain possible.
- Anuind Silverspruce
Any drunken idiot can fall off a bar stool, a real man rides it to the ground.
