Just trying to start some dialogue. I've read the documentation, seen some roleplaying which seems ot follow it and much which doesn't (and even more that isn't roleplaying at all). None of the characters I've rolled up are hard-core racists, though Leya certainly has her issues. I'm curious as to how racial biases in the game are perceived by players, particularly players of racist and/or anti-racist characters.


Loads more to follow... but real life beckons. ;)





~*Onzeleya's Imaginary Friend

"Would I spend forever here, and not be satisfied?"-- SM

Speaking to Onzeleya, Kishtrim says, "Your opinion is noted and summarily dismissed."

I am not opposed to racism in Gemstone in general. I was when I first started playing because I didn't understand that each race was actually a separate species. Once I understood that, it became more acceptable to me. Nevertheless, there is one aspect of it that disturbs me deeply.

Generally, the characters I see as the objects of racism are dark elves, and then it's usually with derogatory terms that reference the color of their skin. (And I'm not talking about heated debates that turn from being IC to PvP.) I haven't seen this happen with any other race, and don't even know if it would be considered an insult if so. Half-krolvin are hated because of their krolvin lineage and the atrocities committed by the krolvin over the centuries (millennia?). Yet, I haven't heard anyone reference the color of their skin in insults. Dark elves are hated because of demonology, yet are called darkies, mud elves, etc.

If this didn't so closely mirror real life, it would be easy to separate real-life racism from Gemstone species-ism.

-wyn

>>>How do you crudely demean a dark elf for demonology? He Who Meddles With That Which Should Not Be is more of a compliment. I absolutely invite the more inventive players (and characters) to use less shallow insults, but the defining physical features of a race are an easy and direct target for your run-of-the-mill Elanthian bigot.<<<

I think common sense should be used when thinking up racial or derogatory slurs and insults to hurl about in Gemstone. The main concept people should latch onto would be not to use actual racist expressions from reality, even if they might apply to, say, Dark Elves. Yes, they have black skin (or, most of them do, anyway). Yes, in reality we have some really horrible things we can say about people with black skin. One plus the other does not equal hurling real life racist comments at a black skinned Faendryl.

Instead, why not think of something clever, original, and most importantly not connected with real life racism?

As a side thought regarding all this, I find it interesting (as well as disturbing) that our culture so strongly associates the concept of black skin with evil, wrong, or not-favorable. Look at Gemstone itself. When a race of "evil" elves was thought up, their defining physical characteristic was descided to be the fact they have black skin. Meanwhile, the "normal" elves are genetically incapable of even being born with black skin. These elves are the race of the beautiful, the chosen of the Gods, and they are all white, or at least of fair/light skin.

---

A voice murmurs, "He's listening to the lobsters again... if we surprise him now, he'll never know we're here. We might just be able to restrain him before he does anything dangerous."

You exclaim, "Don't blame me! He told me to ASSIST!"

>>I think common sense should be used when thinking up racial or derogatory slurs and insults to hurl about in Gemstone. The main concept people should latch onto would be not to use actual racist expressions from reality, even if they might apply to, say, Dark Elves. Yes, they have black skin (or, most of them do, anyway). Yes, in reality we have some really horrible things we can say about people with black skin. One plus the other does not equal hurling real life racist comments at a black skinned Faendryl.

I agree. Which is to say, it is inappropriate to call a Faendryl the "n-word" (for the sake of this post not being pulled). But I would consider "darkie," while being a slur that has seen use in the real world, not intrinsically linked to Earth race relations - and therefore reasonable to use against a dark elf. (After all, millions of people have had thousands of years in the real world to come up with all kinds of sexist/racist/*ist slurs. If we banned them all, we would have far less crude language to work with.)

I'm fine with anti-dark elf slurs based on skin tone, but they should be legitimately grounded in Elanthia, not dominated by real-world connotations.

>>As a side thought regarding all this, I find it interesting (as well as disturbing) that our culture so strongly associates the concept of black skin with evil, wrong, or not-favorable. Look at Gemstone itself. When a race of "evil" elves was thought up, their defining physical characteristic was descided to be the fact they have black skin. Meanwhile, the "normal" elves are genetically incapable of even being born with black skin. These elves are the race of the beautiful, the chosen of the Gods, and they are all white, or at least of fair/light skin.

I thought about mentioning this too in an earlier post, but we shouldn't be too quick to blame "our culture," except in the broadest strokes. Dichotomies of white-light-good/black-dark-bad in Western society (can't speak for others from my own knowledge) date back at least to pre-Socratic Greeks and probably before that.

More proximally, there's the influence of dark elves in other fiction and gaming - particularly the drow of D&D. So this a hard archetype to buck. It's undergirded with traditions in millennia of culture and years of genre, and it would certainly stick out if it were reversed. (See, in GemStone, the light elves are evil and the dark elves are good! Ooh, egalitarian!)

Hah. I would laugh and laugh if they made it against policy to use slurs referring to the color of a dark elf's skin. It would most certainly be indicative of the times...not Elanthian times, but ours of course.

---

Evarin and his Mis'ri

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Wait...you cannot actually use the term "Darkie" in this game? My god, I was joking. It was seriously banned as offensive? That was the whole POINT!

I can see the N word, as that is inappropriate and out of genre. But Darkie? They are known as DARK ELVES. Come on, people.

---

Evarin and his Mis'ri

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That term is completely offensive both to me as a player, and to my character as an elf. I move it be banned.

---

Evarin and his Mis'ri

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>>I feel your pain there. But I also feel it was a necessary move in the end. Some players get carried up in the moment and enforce their RP on people who clearly are not enjoying it. They get told stop and the message doesn't go through. In order to play with others you can't always be the winner. You have to give half half.

>>I love the concept of racist elves etc. I only find it a problem, when people, who forget we are all people, play upon it. No one likes losing, but you can't always win. IMO, if you play, in a social game, you play to do both. To fail to lose, occasionally, to that toon you've been beating upon in an act of RP, usually leaves me a sour taste as a player.(cause then I spend the entire time worrying how the player behind the toon feels). It's a give and take.

This sounds like an issue with players going too far while roleplaying a mean character... any particular words that they might use to that effect are a symptom of their overzealousness. The term "darkie" wouldn't be the problem, it's the behavior of the jerk using it inappropriately.

oh right. Forgot to mention. Threaten the aelotoi with web. They love that. Heh-heh.

It's the stench!

Nessu

How can anyone not list "half-breed" for half-elves among their racial slurs?

I remember saying "bugger" once and an aelotoi in the area got offended. I wasn't even referring to them or anyone of their race, but it worked out so great I decided to just play off that it had been my intention to offend them all along. Good times.

---

-Farn & Co.
AIM: LastMinutePrayer
Email: play.net address

<<I guess my question is: Why is it an insult to call a dark elf a darkie unless you're drawing on real-world comparisons? Why would I, as an Elanthian, think that slinging that word at a dark elf would be an insult? And why should I, as a dark elf, feel denigrated because someone was remarking on my skin color?

So you're asking why anyone should feel offended when referred to in a pejorative manner by their skin color (or some other physical attribute)? It's all in the intent behind the words, not necessarily the words. If "darkie" is used in a pejorative sense by one race against another one, then it's an insult. Even on earth, there are all manner of insults that are nonsense words (or based on some physical attribute) that are offensive, simply because they're intended as offensive.

So yes, "darkie" can be an insult to a dark elf.

-Grendeg

It would be my opinion that entirely too much RL meaning is given to things in game. Because the reverse is inherently impossible.

When I can cast call wind and have it dust my house, or minor water to clean the toilet, or use my kids sidewalk chalk and a map of Mexico to rip a rift in reality and come out on the other side instead of paying plane fare - then I can accept that "darkie" or "halfbreed" or any other ingame insult has RL connotations.

It is not the player calling the other player a deragatory name. Remember, people have no idea what color you are sitting behind your keyboard - just because a character is a female, does not mean the player is!

Everyone playing this game has baggage. Gender, age, disability, race, ethnicity, etc etc etc. But that baggage belongs to the player, not the character. Would it surprise you to know that I am actually a one armed, 6'6" Puerto Rican ex-pro wrestler? What possible difference should that make to my character? None.

I can, however, accept and respect that some people do not want to play to a race/species bias in game, for personal reasons. I don't think anyone would tell you you have to. But many people will look askance at you if your halfling has a romantic liason with a Dhe'nar.

RheisIa's Witch

...and you will know her by the trail of limbs.

<<Dirt-elf is still a good substitute.>>

Lisera's preferred term for Dark Elves on the whole is "outcast," which I imagine to be the term she grew up with.

According to the docs, the Nalfein and the Vaalor asserted that the Faendryl are no longer Elves after the destruction of Ta'Ashrim. The Dhe'nar also are no longer Elves because they rejected Elven culture, and even now live a twisted perversion of their original culture. Both groups gave up their rights as Elves when they left the Empire, so they can no longer be called Elves, dark or otherwise. The Faendryl and the Dhe'nar are also no longer welcome into Elven society, making them an outcast.

As a Nalfein, she won't make her bias known. If she's referring to a specific individual or a group from the same culture, she's just as likely to call them Faendryl or Dhe'nar as she would call them outcasts. In my experience, however, no one's really picked up on the meaning of the term.

Gretchen

Nilandia's GS4 Info Repository: http://www.nilandia.com
AIM: Lady Nilandia

Quite possibly, Evarin. No one's picked up on it yet, though.

Pity.

Gretchen

Nilandia's GS4 Info Repository: http://www.nilandia.com
AIM: Lady Nilandia

>OK, so if characters started using the "n" word or any number of other real-life racial slurs (for Jews, Mexicans, Irish, Italians, <name your favorite heritage here>), it would be all right because they're being used in game? - wyn

I think that what was trying to be said here was, "When Elanthia becomes real life, then I'll accept that Elanthian slurs translate to real-life," not, "Using real-life racial slurs in Elanthia is acceptable." It's like those logic puzzles where they say, "If A is true, then B is true. If B is true, then C is true. If C is true, then is A true?" In case you're wondering what the answer is, it is, "Maybe?" They don't always apply in reverse, and in this case... they really don't apply in reverse at all.

Racial slurs in a game where the racial slur cannot be applied to the person behind the character (such as "blue ape" and "half-human") should only be offensive to the character and not the player. However, racial slurs that can be applied to the player ("canuck", the N-word, etc.) should never really be considered appropriate or even IC in Elanthia, since we don't really have canadians, africans, jews, or mexicans in Elanthia. Considering that there are few restrictions on skin color, it makes associating skin colors with certain races (other than, of course, a dark elf) somewhat difficult.

I don't really see racial slurs in GemStone as being negative unless they're being used to directly insult the player behind the character. However, a lot of people have issues separating the character from themselves and may take offense to the term no matter what.

I admit that it took me years to get comfortable with racism in GemStone. Though, even now, my character doesn't resort to racial slurs unless he is identified by a racial slur first. It is fun to remind people that they're not the only ones that can define people by their race. Though, I don't really consider my character racist at all due to his unusual upbringing; but he is still a dark elf.

-Andy, Divid's, who finally decided to say something about this drawn-out topic.

Knowledge is power. http://www.krakiipedia.org/

I think that what was trying to be said here was, "When Elanthia becomes real life, then I'll accept that Elanthian slurs translate to real-life," not, "Using real-life racial slurs in Elanthia is acceptable." It's like those logic puzzles where they say, "If A is true, then B is true. If B is true, then C is true. If C is true, then is A true?" In case you're wondering what the answer is, it is, "Maybe?" They don't always apply in reverse, and in this case... they really don't apply in reverse at all.

- Andy

If Ted is the same height as Bob and Bob is the same height as Jack, Ted and Jack are the same height.

"Darkie" is a real-life racial slur. I can think of some other real-life racial slurs that would fit perfectly into the Elanthian universe, but I would never dream of using them because of their real-life connotations. No player's going to get up in arms because another character called his character an orc or a troll or a thousand other insults that originated in-game.

However, this term comes from real-life and blurs the line between the game and reality. I have yet to hear a convincing argument why it should be an insult in Elanthia. Dark elves have dark skin. So what? Half-krols have blue or grayish skin. Elves are lily-white. Yet I don't hear anyone calling H-Ks "blue-boys" or elves "Whitey."

-wyn

<<If Ted is the same height as Bob and Bob is the same height as Jack, Ted and Jack are the same height.

You went the wrong way. Ted => Bob and Bob => Jack does imply Ted => Jack. It does not imply that Jack => Ted. In your example it happens to be true, but it doesn't necessarily have to be.

-Grendeg

Weighing in because I feel like people are dancing around an importance point but not saying it outright.

The difference between using "darkie" and other terms, the "n-word" in particular, is that there is NO reason whatsoever for an Elanthian character to know that word. None.

But "darkie" could easily be an insult derived naturally from Elanthian experience with races of darker hues. For non-dark elves in particular, whose skin cannot be nearly as dark as that of a Dhe'nar or Faendryl (that's correct, isn't it?), it makes perfect sense that the term "darkie" would arise as a derogatory term for dark elves.

A racial slur is meant to isolate the target from the one casting the aspersion, to emphasize a difference and cast it in such a light as to insinuate that the target is somehow inferior because of that difference. Skin tone is an immediately identifiable difference in this case, and it's perfectly natural that it could have come into being as a slur in Elanthian society, without and help from the players behind the characters.

---

And.. an empath has the chance to boneshatter someone. That's pretty violent.

Accidents happen to pacifists too, you know.

Also, there is a reason that I did not specifically use the term "darkie" as an example, though I do feel that the term fits well in GS and doesn't carry enough negative connotation on Earth to prevent its use in GS; regardless of that, none of my characters use the term. Primarily because it sounds like something a child would say right along with "oopsies" and "sowwries."

And thank you, Grendeg, for re-stating my logic puzzle. I did specifically state that the example CAN be true, but isn't always, and definately isn't in this case. The comparison of height would be an example of where it is true, yes.

-Andy, Divid's

Knowledge is power. http://www.krakiipedia.org/