>But "darkie" could easily be an insult derived naturally from Elanthian experience with races of darker hues. For non-dark elves in particular, whose skin cannot be nearly as dark as that of a Dhe'nar or Faendryl (that's correct, isn't it?), it makes perfect sense that the term "darkie" would arise as a derogatory term for dark elves.

Humans can. I reference Sayori for this (and add a rawr.)




Nick, Aasterinian's Taskmaster
He who thinks by the inch and talks by the yard deserves to be kicked by the foot.

<<[Racism] has become so cliche and boring.>>

To me, that would depend upon how it's treated. Just standing around and slinging insults does get boring and repetitive, but incorporating racism into every area of life can have interesting effects.

Lisera, for example, has no problem with someone of another race helping pick her boxes or getting her to safety in the few times she's been killed. They've finally made themselves useful to her. She would not, however, allow most races to heal or raise her, as it would require much closer contact, and that's highly distasteful to her.

If someone of another race should happen to offer help with healing or restoring life, she would thank them but request someone of her own people. With very few exceptions, the other person would understand, and some have even tried to get help for her.

In this case and in most others, it's all about how you play the racism. If you do nothing but spout racial epithets and broadcast hate, you'll find yourself the target of hate in return, if you're not outright ignored. It's the subtle racism that makes life interesting.

<<It seems like racism within the game is just an easy cop-out for people to be rude to other people. It has become so cliche and boring.>>

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with this in the strongest terms, at least for myself.

It's certainly true that a number of people hide behind racism as an excuse to be a pain and general annoyance or just to be able to sling a couple insults at someone before (or after) they kill them. I find them just as exasperating as most people, if not more so, since these people often turn other people away from solid RP based upon race.

I play characters of varying shades of racism. Nilandia has enough awareness to know that people of certain races look down upon her Her personal tastes for a man (if she can ever find a good one) require that he be a Sylvan because he would most likely share her background, but a man with Elven blood who's not Faendryl or Dhe'nar could possibly capture her attention as well. Past that, race doesn't figure into the equation for her.

My cleric can appreciate the contributions of other races, but she still has enough of the lingering biases to feel sorry that they cannot achieve the greatness of her own race. Lisera and my rogue have definite racial biases, but they are social manipulators and will not openly speak of them unless they are in like-minded company. Lastly, my polearmer has strong racial and cultural biases and has few qualms about making them known in her home town.

In every case, the grade of racism is carefully thought out to fit the character, and when racism comes up in RP, my first concern is to ensure the other person or people are enjoying themselves while still keeping true to my character's own RP. To me roleplay is as much, if not more, about the other person's fun as it is about mine.

It makes my week to find someone who understands the nature of racism and plays along with it. In most cases, people are scared of confronting racism, even though it's firmly written into (almost) every racial document. The Half-Elf document even has a list of how the different cultures react to a Half-Elf coming from that culture, and I'd adore to see similar lists of the prevailing attitudes each race or culture has of the others.

Still, if I find that someone isn't enjoying racial RP, I'll either whisper that it's all RP and nothing personal is meant, to see if they're still willing to play, or I'll move off to another topic or find someone else to RP with. RP based upon race isn't for everyone, and it's hardly my place to force it on anyone. This game is about everyone else's enjoyment, more so than mine.

Gretchen

PS: Somewhat interesting to note that characters and players can tease each other based upon profession or which in-game town their characters live in, yet if you bring race into the equation, you've touched a nerve and people immediately become nervous.

Nilandia's GS4 Info Repository: http://www.nilandia.com
AIM: Lady Nilandia

>>But again I ask, why? Why is skin color any more of an issue in Elanthia than hair color or eye color? In real life, people have been discriminating against each other based on skin color since time immemorial, but where does the documentation state that this is the case in Elanthia?

"Dark elves can be distinguished by their sharper features and usually dark brown or black skin color."
That's the first line of dark elf documentation: http://www.play.net/gs4/info/races/darkelf.asp

What's physically different about dark elves? Sharp features and dark skin. Skin color is readily apparent and difficult to hide. It's a defining physical feature of the race. This is not a leap.

>>This is why I believe that people bringing this into game are using the knowledge of real-life distaste for others of a different skin color to convey contempt in an in-character way (and please note, I'm not saying that players are doing this consciously or maliciously). In other words, my dark elf isn't expected to be offended when called a darkie because that's what dark elves have historically been called in denigrating Elanthian terms. She's supposed to be offended because of how this word is used in real life. Without the real life basis, no one would use this slur any more than they would remark on someone's hair or eye color.

I would support official documentation of racial slurs and discrimination in Elanthia. It just doesn't seem likely to hit high on anyone's priorities. So until then we're forced to build our own terms.

>>This has been my question all along. Why is skin color a factor in Elanthia?

Read post #345.

>>But based on that rationalization, none of my dark elves would be offended at being called a darkie. Dark elves are proud of the fact that they are the greatest masters of sorcery, and the transformation they underwent in Rhoska-Tor only made them stronger in this regard. The Faendryl are also pretty tickled that they're powerful enough to wipe out an entire elven house. So none of that is insulting to them.

Who says your Faendryl needs to be offended? Turn thier slur around on them and take pride in the fact that you are different, and better then the others.


-player of hakwea

"Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him" ~Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
The demonologists Handbook: http://www.geocities.com/gsdemonologist/

>>In Elanthia, skin color is merely one of the ways to tell the difference between a dark elf and an elf. At least, that's the inference I draw from that particular document.

Thats the thing though, insults, slurs or anything else used to "attack" another thing verbal usually focuses on the differences. You don't focus on the similarites because then you would be attacking yourself. Another elf would call a dark elf long ears. Some would focus on dark skin as an insult as proof of a dark elfs twisted nature, their evilness.

Its the nature of insults, and has nothing really to do with real life other then people in real life focus on skin color as a difference.


-player of hakwea

"Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him" ~Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
The demonologists Handbook: http://www.geocities.com/gsdemonologist/

A bigot doesn't hate black people because of the color of their skin. It's a marker. If you're going to insult someone because of their race, wouldn't it be useful to use one of the defining features of that race?

Oh, really? I've seen studies done where two similar resumes were submitted for a job and when the people actually showed up, the black person was discriminated against (and sometimes the resume of the black person was better than or significantly better than that of the white person). The candidates didn't act any differently from each other, and there weren't notable differences in language, diction or dress. (And when there were, the behavior, language etc. of the white person was adjusted negatively.) If that isn't bigotry based on skin color, what is it?

>>In Elanthia, skin color is merely one of the ways to tell the difference between a dark elf and an elf. At least, that's the inference I draw from that particular document.

Thats the thing though, insults, slurs or anything else used to "attack" another thing verbal usually focuses on the differences. You don't focus on the similarites because then you would be attacking yourself. Another elf would call a dark elf long ears. Some would focus on dark skin as an insult as proof of a dark elfs twisted nature, their evilness.

Its the nature of insults, and has nothing really to do with real life other then people in real life focus on skin color as a difference.

-player of hakwea

And why is skin color so prevalent in the real world? Skin is a physical feature. It is a marker of ancestry. It's the cultures that clash, not the melanin.

Just like in Elanthia.

PRICKLIES

This still doesn't answer the question of why an Elanthian would find slurs about skin color insulting. Unlike real-life humans, who generally hate to stand out, the races in Elanthia are very proud of their differences. The skin of dark elves marks them out as masters of spiritual and elemental magic because the mani foci at Rhoska-Tor that transformed their skin also made them these masters. Halflings are proud of their abnormally large feet. Dwarves love being hairy; the more hair, the better. Giants revel in being big and strong and tall. Elves like the fact that they have pointy ears.

Why should a physical characteristic that I'm proud of make me feel ashamed because someone points out that I have it? Real life humans have been conditioned to be ashamed of anything that makes them different. Not so the races of Elanthia. In fact, I would say that they've been conditioned to be proud of those differences.

-wyn

I've got to go with Pricklies on that one; skin color is merely a marker. I'm of mixed and, at first glance, indeterminate ethnicity. I have had conversations with people who were perfectly amicable and polite-- until something I said or another member of my family caused them to realize that I wasn't white. In an instant, the entire mood of the conversation changed and the other person found something else to do. LIke I said, there was an episode of Law and Order about this. A white woman married a light-skinned black man who was passing for white. They had a child together, lived together for something like 12 years and then one day the man's sister showed up to visit him for some reason. Upon learning that her husband and her son were "black," she immediately filed for divorce and tried to disown the child (the husband ended up paying triple alimony because he traveled often for business and he didn't feel that he'd provide a stable home for the kid). The husband was (to me) very obviously mixed; the boy was (to me) very obviously mixed-- but he looked white, and the woman in the show was fine before she knew. My children look white to most people, and I've seen complete demeanor changes when they hear my children call me "mamma."

Of course there is discrimination based on skin tone, but in general, I'd have to say that the skin itself is merely a marker. Even in the absence of, for example, obviously black features most racists will still behave negatively toward "black" people.




~*Onzeleya's Imaginary Friend

"Would I spend forever here, and not be satisfied?"-- SM

Speaking to Onzeleya, Kishtrim says, "Your opinion is noted and summarily dismissed."

<<If it's so common to use differences as a way to insult characters, then why aren't other cultures discriminated against because of their obviously different features?

Well... they are. Wings, hairy feet, short height, tall height, slim effiminate build, krolvin face, etc. I've seen all of them used for "racism."

<<I'll tell you why: Because skin color is a hot-button issue in real life and you're assured of your zinger hitting home.

What, you've never seen racial stereotypes based on anything other than skin color? If so, it sounds like you're rather sheltered and have a view of racism that comes more from TV [shrug]. Skin color is a big one certainly, but it's hardly the only one. Why is it bigger than lips, eyes, ears, facial build, height, etc? Mostly because it's pretty easy to see from a difference and impossible to conceal, in my opinion.

<<So they use something that that person is ashamed or self-conscious of. My contention is that there's no broad basis for saying that dark elves are ashamed of or self-conscious about their skin color.

I've never known someone to be ashamed by their skin color except when others have forced that viewpoint on them by repetition. I doubt that <racial group X> is ever ashamed of being <skin color Y>, but some "superior" group tries to make it out as a badge of dishonor and sometimes forces a pseudo-shame-ness on the other person. Of course dark elvse aren't ashamed of their skin color, but when they're in an area populated by blond-haired lily-white humans, that skin color will make them stand out and provide an obvious target.

<<I think they have probably been conditioned to be very conscious of it, though. Therefore, if someone levels a slur at them based on their skin color, they're going to feel ashamed. Being revolted is not even remotely the same as being ashamed. Choose your words more carefully.

...I think you need to choose your own words more carefully. I've never known a black (African isn't necessarily black by the way) to be ashamed of dark skin, and if someone uses a slur based on it, they tent to get angry, or perhaps ignore it. Shame? Ha!

-Grendeg

<<It seems like racism within the game is just an easy cop-out for people to be rude to other people. It has become so cliche and boring.>>

I totally disagree with this. People RPing documented racism in the game are by far the exception and not the norm. So much so that those people who do play it and come across as rude really stand out. I think it's too bad that more people don't follow the documentation to at least some degree on this in the game.

Even if they want to play a non-racist character, their character should still understand it and know it's normal, rather than speak out against it with our 20th Century Earth attitudes. Some people do attempt to RP racism in a boring and cliche manner, that is certainly true. But that's not a problem with racism in the game, it is due to lack of ability in the individual RPer.

<<What I do think is that the term is an unconscious reflection of the fact that here on Earth, skin color matters. But I don't understand why skin color matters in Elanthia.

-wyn>>

I don't think skin color really matters in Elanthia. But what matters is rarely a reason for why a word becomes a racial epithet. As others pointed out, it's based on an easily discernable difference between Faendryle elves and other elves. The Faendryl are dark because of what they did and what happened to them after they did it. It's a sign of their sin I guess you could say. <grin>

People are lazy and find a word that comments on an obvious difference and then use that word in a perjorative manner. I've never once thought that comments on Faendryl skin color meant that people were prejudiced against skin color in Elanthia. I don't recall anyone calling Kanshael dwarves darkies for instance, probably because dwarves have other more notable characteristics. And note that we're talking about the word "darkie" specifically, which not only references dark skin, but is a diminisher with the "ie" ending. I doubt the dark part offends any Faendryl.

Let me ask it this way, within a purely Elanthian context, what's the difference between calling a Faendryl a darkie and an aelotoi a bug?

Zyllah

Did you ever notice how dark skinned humans are never the target of those terms that folks find objectional? What about dark skinned dwarves? The reason that they aren't is because there is technically no such thing as racism in Elanthia. We area talking about totally seperate species, for the most part, who are competing for the same resources. If you need to equate real life race into elanthia then it would be what we term cultures. Those are the real races, the intraspecies differences that we are used to dealing with in real life.


Salim

>>Force without justice is violence,
>>Justice without force is weakness.

<<As you just said, though -- we're adventurers. We're the William Walkers, the Daniel Boones, the Buffalo Bills, the Calamity Janes. We're expected to deviate from the norm -- anyone crazy enough to go kill troll kings for fun instead of opening a bakery is obviously going to have wild social ideas as well. We aren't normal and following the documentation by definition of our occupation [grin].>>

Adventurers deviate from the norm, certainly, but that does not mean they are not products of the culture they grew up in. If someone is exposed to a particular view for their entire life, only those with incredible willpower and self-awareness would be able just to make a dent in ridding themselves of that view, even if they would want to. Just because someone is an adventurer doesn't mean they reject the worldview their home accepts.

As a side note, William Walker appealed to the South for support for his conquests in Central America, claiming it could expand slave territory. Courtesy of Wikipedia, Walker was a Southern Presbyterian "who believed in the superiority of the Anglo-Saxon race and in its civilizing mission in the world." It would seem that being an adventurer doesn't mean you can't be racist. ;)

<<Two hundred years ago, there were people speaking out against racism in our 20th Century earth attitudes -- 200 years ahead of the time.>>

Keep in mind that a good part of the anti-slavery lobby in the US were just as racist as the pro-slavery lobby. During the 19th Century, the North and South were increasingly polarized to the point where almost any action taken by one side was immediately contradicted by the other. Since both North and South acknowledged that the Southern economy depended heavily upon slave labor, a good number opposed slavery just to get at the South, not for any ideals of racial equality.

Gretchen

PS: Given how many people play being an orphan raised by another race, it might be interesting to see those orphans exhibit the racist tendencies of their adopted race.

Nilandia's GS4 Info Repository: http://www.nilandia.com
AIM: Lady Nilandia

><heh> Probably not enough-- though I have no doubt that for Leya, being raised by a dwarf certainly made her a little less receptive when she started meeting other elves (particularly high-society sorts). She doesn't hate elves, per se, but she tends to think of herself as a "bad elf" because "good elves" are people she doesn't want to emulate.

That wounds me :(



Nick, Aasterinian's Taskmaster
He who thinks by the inch and talks by the yard deserves to be kicked by the foot.

>I totally disagree with this. People RPing documented racism in the game are by far the exception and not the norm. So much so that those people who do play it and come across as rude really stand out. I think it's too bad that more people don't follow the documentation to at least some degree on this in the game. ~Zyllah

No kidding. I've always played my main as a closet racist (Being too open about it didn't seem prudent to him, so he pretends to cosmopolitanism in front of elves, ordlyn, and hathlyn), and only in the recent storyline have non-humans started to notice what some of the other 'Havenite humans have been seeing for years. It's actually tough, since not only does the 21st century chap at the keys has serious guilt-issues, but it definitely makes socializing harder.

As far as adventurers being different, that can be true. Myself, I play it that Gode has developed a respect for certain members of different races, while he maintains a healthy disdain for non-human cultures.

I would say skin tone is less of an issue because there are so many other things that are even more specific. Pointy ears, hair feet, blue fur... way more distinctive.

~Godefroy

"We are the Hokies. We will prevail. We will prevail. We will prevail. We are Virginia Tech."
~Professor Nikki Giovanni

My first character in the game was a half-elf. I came up with a backstory that involved the idea that, as pushed in the docs, she would be at least somewhat discriminated against. Then I started playing her and found out that no one really RPs that discrimination. It was incredibly disappointing and the whole character ended up seeming hollow.

My point? I think the game is infinitely more enjoyable when people at least adhere somewhat to the official docs, including those that hint at negative feelings toward another race. As far as using physical characteristics to indicate that racism, it doesn't bother me in the least, though I have to say it's even more enjoyable when it's done in a subtle fashion.

-Vaedalis, et. al.

<<So they use something that that person is ashamed or self-conscious of. My contention is that there's no broad basis for saying that dark elves are ashamed of or self-conscious about their skin color.

I've never known someone to be ashamed by their skin color except when others have forced that viewpoint on them by repetition. I doubt that <racial group X> is ever ashamed of being <skin color Y>, but some "superior" group tries to make it out as a badge of dishonor and sometimes forces a pseudo-shame-ness on the other person.

That's exactly my point. People aren't self-conscious of their skin color unless they're conditioned to be. Call it conditioning or repetition, they learn to be self-conscious. And in order for this kind of conditioning to be effective, it has to begin at a young age. I feel no compulsion whatsoever to look like a stick, even though it's everywhere I look: magazines, movies, television, even the Internet. That's because I wasn't conditioned to be that way. Dark elves haven't been conditioned to be ashamed of their skin color.

Of course dark elvse aren't ashamed of their skin color, but when they're in an area populated by blond-haired lily-white humans, that skin color will make them stand out and provide an obvious target.

Dark elves are probably the most arrogant and proud of any of the races. Standing out is what they do. They scramble to stand out even in their own communities. Again, insults are based on either exploiting your target's weakness or diminishing that which your target is most proud of, not pointing out something totally irrelevant to them.

<<I'll tell you why: Because skin color is a hot-button issue in real life and you're assured of your zinger hitting home.

What, you've never seen racial stereotypes based on anything other than skin color? If so, it sounds like you're rather sheltered and have a view of racism that comes more from TV [shrug]. Skin color is a big one certainly, but it's hardly the only one. Why is it bigger than lips, eyes, ears, facial build, height, etc? Mostly because it's pretty easy to see from a difference and impossible to conceal, in my opinion.

Yes, I've seen racial stereotypes based on things other than skin color. I'm not sure what in my post would have suggested that I haven't. What I haven*'*t seen is this kind of insult in game on nearly the scale that I see the skin color issue with dark elves. And I'm sorry, how is skin color any more difficult to conceal than lips, eyes, etc.? If you're close enough to interact with and insult someone, then surely you're close enough to notice their lips, eyes, ears, facial build, and most certainly, their height.

<<I think they have probably been conditioned to be very conscious of it, though. Therefore, if someone levels a slur at them based on their skin color, they're going to feel ashamed. Being revolted is not even remotely the same as being ashamed. Choose your words more carefully.

...I think you need to choose your own words more carefully. I've never known a black (African isn't necessarily black by the way) to be ashamed of dark skin, and if someone uses a slur based on it, they tent to get angry, or perhaps ignore it. Shame? Ha!

-Grendeg

I choose my words very carefully, especially in a discussion of this nature. From Dictionary.com (American Heritage dictionary) - http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ashamed:

a?shamed
adj.

1. Feeling shame or guilt: Are you ashamed for having lied?
2. Feeling inferior, inadequate, or embarrassed: ashamed of my torn coat.
3. Reluctant through fear of humiliation or shame: ashamed to ask for help.

I can't be 100% sure, but I'm extremely doubtful that you've polled every black person you've ever met about how they'd feel at being the target of a racial slur; and I'm even more doubtful that you've been present with all of them when they've been the targets of racial slurs. And since you can't possibly know all black people, you can only speculate on what they're actually feeling.

Furthermore, if you'll refer back to my previous words, I said that black people (in this case, African blacks) have been conditioned to be very conscious of their skin, not ashamed of it. The attempt at shaming comes from slinging the racial slur. So I do believe that the vast majority of people who are the focus of a racial slur will feel shamed, inferior, inadequate or embarrassed. They'll probably also be angry because it isn't as if humans can only feel one emotion at a time.

Regarding Africans, I only used that example because that was what the player of Hakwea referenced. I don't remember the exact quote, but he said something such as "Do you think an African is going to be revolted by his black skin?" I am well aware of the fact that not all Africans are black, as shown in the second part of the post you responded to. Perhaps you should direct your comment to the player of Hakwea.

Let me ask it this way, within a purely Elanthian context, what's the difference between calling a Faendryl a darkie and an aelotoi a bug?

Zyllah

I was under the impression that aelotoi were a mixture of kiramon and possibly elves. Kiramon are bugs, aren't they? Also, it's well-known that the aelotoi were slaves of the kiramon, so calling them something that identifies them with their oppressors (whom they hated passionately) would be insulting.

There's no shame/embarassment/self-consciousness to a dark elf in being dark-skinned. I understand everyone wanting to say that you only insult someone based on a difference, but that's just not true. Insults are a way to try and hurt someone, so you use something you know (or think with high probability) they're sensitive about.

Did you ever notice how dark skinned humans are never the target of those terms that folks find objectional? What about dark skinned dwarves? The reason that they aren't is because there is technically no such thing as racism in Elanthia. We area talking about totally seperate species, for the most part, who are competing for the same resources. If you need to equate real life race into elanthia then it would be what we term cultures. Those are the real races, the intraspecies differences that we are used to dealing with in real life.

Salim

You ask an excellent question, but I disagree with your conclusion. The argument thus far has been that skin is an easy differentiator and that's why the slur is leveled at dark elves. So if darky is perfectly acceptable as an in-game slur for dark elves, wouldn't it be much more so for humans? I mean, you're hitting them on two levels: 1) you're commenting on that which makes them different from not only the other races, but also the rest of humankind, and 2) you're associating them with the dreaded "darky dark elves." If I'm an elf, I know that humans feel the same disdain for me that I feel for them, so associating them with a dark elf (who we probably both hate) would be an effective insult.

I'm sorry, I just don't buy any of the attempts at rationalizing the use of this slur. If players feel that it would be inappropriate to call a human by that term (especially if their skin color is dark), what does that say about the background of the usage of the term and what it truly means when characters use it?

Players are commenting on the color of the skin not the "dark nature" of the character. They use skin not because it's a differentiator, but because it's a differentiator that can bring shame in real life, and thus will supposedly bring shame within the game. Again, let me emphasize that I don't think anyone is doing this on a conscious level, and I don't think that anyone is trying to be malicious. But I do think that it's a RL slur being used in an OOC way.

-wyn

<<That's exactly my point. People aren't self-conscious of their skin color unless they're conditioned to be. Call it conditioning or repetition, they learn to be self-conscious. And in order for this kind of conditioning to be effective, it has to begin at a young age.

You must think that most people have fairly weak minds to be "conditioned" in the way that you claim. I don't know many people who are "self-conscious" about any of their physical traits, whether skin color, weight, or things along that line. Or maybe it's simply that I have more assured friends than you do [shrug].

<<Dark elves are probably the most arrogant and proud of any of the races. Standing out is what they do. They scramble to stand out even in their own communities. Again, insults are based on either exploiting your target's weakness or diminishing that which your target is most proud of, not pointing out something totally irrelevant to them.

I don't think you get it. It doesn't matter what the dark elf thinks, it's what the people being racist think. Why would a bigoted halfling care how the dark elf reacted? Ideally with anger, but the racism is more of a display for friends, or a way of enhancing their own ego than it is intended to actually hurt the dark elf.

<<What I haven*'*t seen is this kind of insult in game on nearly the scale that I see the skin color issue with dark elves.

...how about based on actual race? Most of the racism I see is directly based on <x> being of race <y> without any reference to physical features of any sort -- except from the actual racial type, of course.

<<I can't be 100% sure, but I'm extremely doubtful that you've polled every black person you've ever met about how they'd feel at being the target of a racial slur; and I'm even more doubtful that you've been present with all of them when they've been the targets of racial slurs.

Turn that back on yourself. If I say that most of the black people I know have no "shame" at their skin color when exposed to a racial slur, it should be more than enough for you to realize that your generalization is wrong.

<<I was under the impression that aelotoi were a mixture of kiramon and possibly elves. Kiramon are bugs, aren't they?

It was just genetic engineering, or the magical equivalent. It isn't literally an elf-kiramon hybrid race.

<<I'm sorry, I just don't buy any of the attempts at rationalizing the use of this slur. If players feel that it would be inappropriate to call a human by that term (especially if their skin color is dark), what does that say about the background of the usage of the term and what it truly means when characters use it?

It means that dark elves acquired the nickname first. There are all sorts of racial slurs that could easily be applied to other groups, except that one managed to acquire it first.

-Grendeg

>>They use skin not because it's a differentiator, but because it's a differentiator that can bring shame in real life, and thus will supposedly bring shame within the game. Again, let me emphasize that I don't think anyone is doing this on a conscious level, and I don't think that anyone is trying to be malicious. But I do think that it's a RL slur being used in an OOC way.


Eh? Its may be similar to a RL slur, but its being used in an IC way to reference an IC race who is set apart from the other races by their dark skin. Its a difference, not a shame thing. As you said Faendryl are one of the most arrogant and proudest cultures, why would they be ashamed of their dark skin? Because someone thinks they are when they call them darky(ie)? Hogwash.

>>So if darky is perfectly acceptable as an in-game slur for dark elves, wouldn't it be much more so for humans?

Not really, as not all humans are dark skinned. Some humans maybe called darkie. But 99.9% of dark elves are dark skinned. It seems like you are looking for a RL correlation between the IG slur and the RL Slur and will stop at nothing to make that connection.




-player of hakwea

"Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him" ~Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
The demonologists Handbook: http://www.geocities.com/gsdemonologist/

I completely agree with Wyn on this topic.

No matter how much we argue that this game is comepletely seperate from RL, it isn't. It seems like this topic is about people wanting to plug their ears to real life issues and say "It isnt' there, it isn't there!" :P. I find it really incredible that one of the arguments is that people aren't self concious of their physical traits, that is so absolutely absurd. Eating disorders, Gyms, Acne treatment, breast implants, diets... to only name a few of the ways people try to change their physical appearance because of self conciousness, their physical appearnce dictating their self esteem/worth.

Someone calling a light skinned elf in game something along the lines of "Paley" won't be taken as seriously as an insult as "darkie" would be because of OOC reasons.

My biggest complaint apart from the few "RP"'s who just like to dish out racial insults. Is that it seems like Elven pride is the most supported and backed up in game, while the other races aren't as built up as a race to support each other and be as proud of their race as the elves might be. I do support documentation and have really tried to get into my particular character's races, dating within one's race, and having kids within your own race makes the most sense to me.

<<I'm sorry. You're so right. What was I thinking? Everyone in this world is completely happy with themselves and conditions such as anorexia and bulimia do not exist. No one ever goes on a diet and all of those weight loss centers, dieting programs, and self-help books are going unused.

A quick logic lesson. Your statement basically translated to "everyone." My statement gave several examples to translate to "not everyone." Not "not everyone" does not translate to "everyone." In other words, of course there are people with the above issues. But it isn't 100% or 90% or even 50% that have anorexia or follow weight-loss programs, or so on. The same with your claim about conditioning. Some people, yes. Most people, no.

<<No one is self-conscious about blemishes or gray hair or baldness...

See above. Some people yes, most people no.

<<I don't think you get it. The enjoyment comes from making the other person squirm.

No, it comes from putting them down. If they're worse than you, it elevates you by comparison. Idiots on the street will yell racist comments at passing <racial group X> and not care in the least bit about whether they even notice -- it makes them feel bigger than they are, and it displays that same attitude to their friends around them. The reaction is a bonus, but it isn't the primary goal.

<<Please elaborate because I don't know what you mean. Now you're claiming that calling an elf an elf is insulting?

...yes...

Look, it's all in intent. Calling somebody a "Jew" is a plain statement of fact (assuming that they are, in fact, Jewish). Yet it's used in a derogatory manner and doesn't require any other words if spoken with the right tone to be insulting (which is pretty much the same with any other racial or culture type) If you sneered while calling somebody an "elf" in the proper tone, you get the same effect. As a matter of fact, it doesn't really matter what the word is, so long as it can be tied to a specific person.

<<What? How do you know that there is no shame going on in their minds?

You're the one making the claim, so I humbly suggest that you try to prove your own assertation first instead of asking me to prove a negative.

<<So says you. The documentation sure seems to suggest that the kiramon mixed the original aelotoi with other kiramon.

No, the documentation says quite clearly that they were modified by the kiramon. I don't see any sort of inter-breeding implication. You're overlooking the simple answer -- something that has fairly delicate and translucent wings is going to bring up images of a bug.

-Grendeg