>>So if darky is perfectly acceptable as an in-game slur for dark elves, wouldn't it be much more so for humans?

Not really, as not all humans are dark skinned. Some humans maybe called darkie. But 99.9% of dark elves are dark skinned. It seems like you are looking for a RL correlation between the IG slur and the RL Slur and will stop at nothing to make that connection.

-player of hakwea

Convenient how you left out the part of the post referencing dark*-*skinned humans and not all humans. If skin color is such a huge way of insulting someone--regardless of whether or not it will actually hurt them--and it over-rides all other physical considerations, why wouldn't dark-skinned humans or the dark-skinned of any race be called darkies as well? After all, it's only about the skin, right? It's all about the most obvious target, isn't it?

I see rationalization on top of rationalization, none of which hold up to serious scrutiny, and many of which are pure nonsense.

And stop at nothing? Yeah, because it's such a huge stretch.

-wyn

>>Convenient how you left out the part of the post referencing dark-skinned humans and not all humans. If skin color is such a huge way of insulting someone--regardless of whether or not it will actually hurt them--and it over-rides all other physical considerations, why wouldn't dark-skinned humans or the dark-skinned of any race be called darkies as well? After all, it's only about the skin, right? It's all about the most obvious target, isn't it?

I left nothing out, as I see grendeg aptly pointed out. Dark skinned humans could be called darkie, you'r right it is an fitting insult. No one has claimed otherwise, and there is no indication that dark skinned humans in elanthia are not called such.

The thing is though they won't be called such by other humans because in elanthia skin color doesn't matter much (if your the member of the same race). Which for humans, no matter the color of their skin they are all one race.

Darky(ie) wouldn't be a fitting racial slur for a human to call another human, because well they don't usually do that as they are all human (though that does not mean another human won't be called that, it just means it is not a "fitting" insult).

>>I see rationalization on top of rationalization, none of which hold up to serious scrutiny, and many of which are pure nonsense.

I agree, but I don't think we will agree on which side is doing which.


-player of hakwea

"Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him" ~Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
The demonologists Handbook: http://www.geocities.com/gsdemonologist/

A quick logic lesson. Your statement basically translated to "everyone." My statement gave several examples to translate to "not everyone." Not "not everyone" does not translate to "everyone." In other words, of course there are people with the above issues. But it isn't 100% or 90% or even 50% that have anorexia or follow weight-loss programs, or so on. The same with your claim about conditioning. Some people, yes. Most people, no.

A quick lesson in rhetorical terms: Hyperbole is obvious and intentional exaggeration used for emphasis or effect. What did I want to emphasize? That there are a vast number of reasons why human beings can be self-conscious about themselves. Since I couldn't even come close to listing them all, I listed those that are the most prevalent in our society.

You claim that most of your friends have nothing they feel self-conscious about and extrapolate that to mean that therefore, most people in the world aren't self-conscious about themselves. You then go on to say that I must hang around with some pretty insecure people. So it only applies to the population in general if it applies to your friends? Nothing in the media means anything, nor does actual scientific research because your friends are self-secure?

Since I refuse to continue this argument on the basis of your experiences, I thought I'd look up some empirical data, and this is just on dieting. As reported in http://www.sc.edu/healthycarolina/pdf/facstaffstu/eatingdisorders/EatingDisorderStatistics.pdf:

- It has been shown that 80% of American women are dissatisfied with their appearance (Smolak, 1996).

- 42% of 1st-3rd grade girls want to be thinner (Collins, 1991).
- 46% of 9-11 year-olds are "sometimes" or "very often" on diets, and 82% of their families are "sometimes"
or "very often" on diets (Gustafson-Larson & Terry, 1992).
- 25% of American men and 45% of American women are on a diet on any given day (Smolak, 1996). 25% + 45% = 70%
- 81% of 10 year olds are afraid of being fat (Mellin et al., 1991).
- Over one-half of teenage girls and nearly one-third of teenage boys use unhealthy weight control behaviors
such as skipping meals, fasting, smoking cigarettes, vomiting, and taking laxatives (Neumark-Sztainer,
2005). 50% + 33% = 83%
- 91% of women recently surveyed on a college campus had attempted to control their weight through dieting, 22% dieted "often" or "always" (Kurth et al., 1995).

<<What? How do you know that there is no shame going on in their minds?

You're the one making the claim, so I humbly suggest that you try to prove your own assertation first instead of asking me to prove a negative.

http://www.apa.org/pi/oema/racebib/psychofrace.html

Blake, W.M. & Darling, C.A. (1994). The dilemmas of the African American male. Journal of Black Studies, 24, 402-415.

The authors examine the disappearing African-American male (AAM), substance abuse and suicide, education, economics, employment issues, crime and violence, discrimination, and family relations of the AAM. The reasons AAMs are disappearing include their shorter life expectancy (65 years) and their high mortality rates. AAMs are facing an unprecedented crisis because it is difficult for them to acquire self-confidence and self-esteem within the chaos of modern economic and social life. The tools to address the problem have been diminished. Future research should concentrate more on examining the dilemmas of the AAM instead of continuing to do research on isolated problems such as crime, violence, and unemployment. Social action is crucial to improving the image of the AAM, and African Americans themselves must help diminish the dilemmas faced by AAMs.

Landrine, H. & Klonoff, E.A. (1996). The Schedule of Racist Events: A Measure of Racial Discrimination and a Study of Its Negative Physical and Mental Health Consequences. Journal of Black Psychology, 22, 144-168.

In this article, the authors develop a brief questionnaire that assesses racist discrimination in the lives of African Americans, and describe the results of preliminary studies using the questionnaire. The Schedule of Racist Events (SRE) is an 18-item self report inventory that assesses the frequency of racist discrimination (specific, stressful racist events) in the past year (recent racist events) and in one's entire life (lifetime racist events), and measures the extent to which this discrimination was evaluated (appraised) as stressful. Results revealed that the SRE has extremely high internal consistency and split-half reliability. Racist discrimination is rampant in the lives of African Americans and is strongly related to psychiatric symptoms and to cigarette smoking. These findings highlight the negative consequences of racism and provide for the validity of the SRE as a measure of (culturally specific) stress.

Martinez, R. & Dukes, R.L. (1991). Ethnic and gender differences in self-esteem. Youth and Society, 22, 318-338.

The authors examined the differences among ethgender (ethnic and gender) groupings on esteem measures in a cohort of students in grades 7-12 in 1983 and again in 1986. The view that institutionalized racism and sexism result in lower self-esteem among minorities was supported by the data. The relationship holds even though various controls were introduced. The view that race is the primary framework within which gender operates received mixed support. The notion of ethgenders seems to be a viable one, but its exact operation still is not clear. The notion of public and private domains points to cultural differences that help to insulate the self-concepts of Black and Chicano adolescents more than those of youths in other groups. The notion supports the view that the effects of dominant group culture and institutions on the self-esteem of minorities are mediated by minority cultures.

Semons, M. (1991). Ethnicity in the urban high school: A naturalistic study of student experiences. Urban Review, 23, 137-158.

The author examined the salience of ethnicity at an urban high school from the students' perspective. Data were derived from extensive observations of students by a participant-observer whose fieldwork extended over the course of one academic year and included interviews of about 50 students. The relevancy of ethnicity tended to be variable, depending on the social situation and the individual's interpretation of the event. The judgment resulting from this interpretation was linked to structural factors in the society. For the students at this multiethnic school, the articulation of ethnicity stemmed from issues of ritual, conflict, interest, and values. The denial of one's ethnic identity centered around prejudice and internalized oppression. Reactions to the racism included denial, intimidation, and defensiveness.

So, again, how do you know what's going on in the minds of every black person you've ever known?

<<If skin color is such a huge way of insulting someone--regardless of whether or not it will actually hurt them--and it over-rides all other physical considerations, why wouldn't dark-skinned humans or the dark-skinned of any race be called darkies as well? After all, it's only about the skin, right? It's all about the most obvious target, isn't it?>>

Actually we've been saying all along that skin doesn't override all other considerations. That's been the whole point. Skin color for dark humans or dark dwarves just isn't an issue so why would anyone use it as an insult? They are obviously human or dwarf and that is what people focus on, not what color of human or dwarf they happen to be. If an elf was calling a dark-skinned human darky, then I would agree that the source of the word the player chose to use would be RL racism because it has no established Elanthian context.

Zyllah

Actually, Grendeg did say that skin color overrides every other consideration and I quote (https://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=10&topic=15&message=358):

>>Skin color is a big one certainly, but it's hardly the only one. Why is it bigger than lips, eyes, ears, facial build, height, etc? Mostly because it's pretty easy to see from a difference and impossible to conceal, in my opinion.

Dark dwarves are dark for the same reasons that dark elves are, so why is it more of an issue for dark elves than it is for dark dwarves? I don't buy that it is for a second. I do buy that you are rationalizing the usage of this term.

It doesn't appear that you or Grendeg or Hakwea are even bothering to think about and process my posts before responding. You've felt from the beginning that the term has no relation to real-life and can't even look deeper to see if what I'm saying might, in fact, be true.

-wyn

<<Since I refuse to continue this argument on the basis of your experiences, I thought I'd look up some empirical data, and this is just on dieting. As reported in..

Very nice statistics (which I don't entirely believe, by the way). Unfortunately, they don't say a thing about why people would be dissatisfied with their appearance or are on a diet, or whatever. Maybe they'd prefer to run faster and be able to climb ropes, rather than being pressured by society claiming that they're fat. I hope you'll pardon me if I go back to my experiences for a moment, but most people I know that have been on diets, it's been because they want to be in better physical shape for either health reasons (an impartial factor) or to have better physical endurance (also an impartial factor). Sometimes it's becacuse they want to look better (which is societal), I'll admit. You've done nothing to back up your claim that society has anything to do with your quoted statistics. In fact, let me respond to a few of them on my own:

<<- 42% of 1st-3rd grade girls want to be thinner (Collins, 1991).

Fine. I'll admit that 1st-3rd grade girls are particuarly vulnerable to societal pressures. Perhaps I should have specified that I was talking about people who are past puberty.

<<- 25% of American men and 45% of American women are on a diet on any given day (Smolak, 1996). 25% + 45% = 70%

Let me change that to 51% and 51%. By your math, 102% of people would be on diets then. Assuming a completely equal male/female population division, it would be 25(.5) + 45(.5) = 12.5 + 22.5 = 35%. It isn't quite a 50% gender split, but that's not terribly important.

<<- Over one-half of teenage girls and nearly one-third of teenage boys use unhealthy weight control behaviors
such as skipping meals, fasting, smoking cigarettes, vomiting, and taking laxatives (Neumark-Sztainer,
2005). 50% + 33% = 83%

Same deal on the statistics. That doesn't sum to 83%.

<<http://www.apa.org/pi/oema/racebib/psychofrace.html
...and all the assorted quotations.

Okay, so you can pull quotes from a website that are vague at best. The closest thing I see to supporting your viewpoint is "The view that institutionalized racism and sexism result in lower self-esteem among minorities was supported by the data." That isn't a very good sentance to inspire confidence. I see nothing saying that most people are affected by it (some obviously, most not).

<<So, again, how do you know what's going on in the minds of every black person you've ever known?

Every one? No. My friends? Yes. Somehow I think that they're going to be just a bit more open with me than with some researcher asking annoying questions.

<<Actually, Grendeg did say that skin color overrides every other consideration and I quote

Very nice quote from me. You even included where I said "Skin color is a big one, certainly, but it's hardly the only one." So no, it does not override every other consideration. It's bigger than the othres in my opinion, which is entirely different.

<<It doesn't appear that you or Grendeg or Hakwea are even bothering to think about and process my posts before responding. You've felt from the beginning that the term has no relation to real-life and can't even look deeper to see if what I'm saying might, in fact, be true.

Well, if you want to go down that road... in my opinion, you aren't actually bothering to think about anything the rest of us have said, and are entirely focused on proving your own point right instead of thinking about the alternative. People who are insistant on seeing racism are going to see it regardless of the evidence to the contrary. I've held this argument a hundred times over (curiously, it always focuses on drow/dark elves), and you've said nothing that I haven't seen over those hundred times. It's a common subject for the excessively politically correct to bring up for any fantasy world.

-Grendeg

<<My new tag line.

Please correct my spelling of "insistant" to "insistent" if you do use it [grin]. I really need to work on that, but when I proofread a post, my eyes just slide right over that sort of spelling error.

-Grendeg

<<I will agree with something that you or someone else stated early on and that is it would be difficult to deny that the original concept of dark-skinned elves being bad elves within fantasy literature likely had a racist component to their creation, even if subconsciously.

I do deny it [shrug]. Darkness has always been associated with evil and fear throughout history, probably because humans are day-dwelling creatures and get scared at night when we can't see anything. Legend (even African legend) is full of evil dark monsters that come in the night. In fairness, there are usually evil monsters of every hue if you go digging around enough, but nearly every human culture out there is scared of the dark in some low-level manner. Dark nights holding dark creatures is simple scary -- like how the Drow are.

-Grendeg

<<my goal in life is to be a MILF>>

huh, my goal in life is to be a mother my children love.


Misun's inner soul


swing, search, repeat....it's as easy as that.

<<It's a different argument, though, and my question still hasn't been addressed-- there is something wrong with being black that isn't based on skin color <at all>...

If that's directed to me, I can't say that I follow what you're really asking. To answer the surface question, I see nothing wrong with being of any race (except perhaps the health problems that certain groups might have). But I have a feeling there's more to it than that, and I'm just not seeing what you mean.

-Grendeg

It wasn't-- it was directed at Wyn, and references (primarily) post 363 (and, by inclusion, the post I was responding to in post 363).

---

~*Onzeleya's Imaginary Friend

"Would I spend forever here, and not be satisfied?"-- SM

Speaking to Onzeleya, Kishtrim says, "Your opinion is noted and summarily dismissed."

It's a different argument, though, and my question still hasn't been addressed-- there is something wrong with being black that isn't based on skin color <at all>. While I can't say that I see murders as a result every day, I can say that I know personally people who's lives have been affected that way. So my question, again-- why would anyone be upset that I was, in their mind, "passing" or tricking them into believing that I was something I'm not, if racism is based exclusively on skin color? How are you defining, for example, "black," in the absence of dark skin and "black" features?

~*Onzeleya's Imaginary Friend

You must have missed post 375. Here's the link to it for your reference:

https://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=10&topic=15&message=375

-wyn

>>Actually, I don't think that I've addressed the subject of half-krolvins at all. Now that you bring it up, however...


To go along with what grendeg said, half-krolvin are called bluies, monkeys, hairballs etc. At aspects of their "race". Dark elves are not the only ones that are insulted bested on differences that can be seen by the eye.


-player of hakwea

"Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him" ~Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
The demonologists Handbook: http://www.geocities.com/gsdemonologist/

<<I find this statement laughable at best considering this is a text-based game. I rarely see anyone use TONE (aside from perma-tones), and I've never seen anyone use it to sling a racial slur. So the elf is not only supposed to infer the tone from a non-existent implication, but is then supposed to be offended by it?>>

TONE is relatively recent to the game so I think is unimportant in this context. One of the things that really amazed me about playing GS was that you can infer a lot of tone from how people say things, even long before there ever was a way to use specific tones in the game. Word choice, accompanying verbs, general demeanor of the character, etc. all add together for it to usually make it quite clear how a character means something they say. I've rarely had any trouble differentiating between sarcasm, insults, pointed statements, etc. at all. The conversational context of things said also helps convey tone.

<<I'd rather they created a good game that didn't focus on skin color at all. It's supposed to be a fantasy world, after all.

-wyn>>

Well this one is fairly close. Skin tone is an issue only with half-krolvin and dark elves. And despite your statement, I do see references to half-krol skin color quite often. But as others mentioned they also have several other features to comment on. As for humans, it depends on who is commenting about them as to what stands out most. To short races and giants it's probably height. To elves it's their stunted ears and hairy bodies. To us as players humans look normal so we might not think of the things that would make them stand out oddly, but to the other races humans look as freakish compared to their own race as anyone else does.

Zyllah

Prion is the awesomeness. That is all. <3

Gretchen

Nilandia's GS4 Info Repository: http://www.nilandia.com
AIM: Lady Nilandia

>...on the other hand, there may be some players who will never be comfortable with others using slurs that reference a dark skin tone at all, even if it's something completely invented like, I don't know, "night-skin." But that's a broader issue about sensitivity I don't want to get into. -Pricklies 5/24/2007

"You have a face only a chamber pot could love." Night soil. Get it? Eh? Eh?


~Andy, player of:
Lord Aeryck Arkhannan the Brigand-Smith
Jezzerem the Sylvan Battlechanter
Ziveron Bartel, Paladin of Onar
Rhorren the Gnomish Whirlwind Warrior
And others...