An obvious stance is going to be blessed weapons.

Magically imbued with a temporary enchantment, anyone can use.

I wouldn't expect to see any guild restrictions regarding enchanted weapons.

I once knew a barb that had a vigil-inducing mantle. He'd wear it and regenerate spirit much faster than normal. There is also a suit of precious metal plate armor that can give Traders invulnerability for a limited time (or so the GM said at the auction). There is definately a grey area here that can be exploited if need be.

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>>So unless pure-elemental mobs are introduced,

I think some plans are in the works for that (think Sentinel hunting areas). Furthermore, elemental damage dealing weapons would be the only practical way a barbarian could ever do fire, cold or electrical damage to something. So if you didn't let them use these weapons, they'd lose out on quite a bit of versatility which is not made up for with their guild abilities.

Wythor and company has absolutely no problem letting NMU's and barbs use passively enchanted items in their 2004 proposal. It was a very open discussion and I can't think of a good reason why we shouldn't let playability trump the other option (ie, never getting enchanting) in this situation :P I mean geesh, if we cut barbs (and NMUs) out of using all enchanted weapons then we're bound to have a lot of other problems down the road.

Anhoo.. I think its been discussed to death. Hopefully we hear more about Enchanting come Con-time!

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>>I don't think it's quite equal; bless is required to even hit non-corp undead. So unless pure-elemental mobs are introduced, that can only be tagged if you have a WM enchanted weapon, deys b difrnt. <<


Not really. Magic, in whatever form, is applied to a weapon that is released upon hitting a creature. The only difference is a "fire" based weapon would hit the other 90% of the creatures out there hypothetically.

Magic is magic, as far as a barbarian standpoint is concerned. The magic is "released" upon striking the creature in both cases. All requirements to damage something aside, they are in fact, equal.

>Magic is magic,

No. Just no. Requiring any enchantment to hit a critter is a far and away cry from generic 'bonus damage afer hit' enchantment.

If I told you you had to wear green underwear to start your car, would you then tell me it was the same as requiring all-green clothing to ride the bus/metro/mass transit unit of choice?

I personally don't even think barbs should be able to use gweths or go through moongates, but maybe I just don't understand what their guild's all about.

Axillus - Halfling Warrior Mage
>You charge your steel-toed footwrap at a musk hog.

I agree Thilian, can we adjust blessed weapons, gweths, moongates, etc along with this? I have a decent sized barb as well, and can say I'd support more stringant inner fire hits in regards to anything magical.

>> a Barbarian using a magical sword will be more effective than a Barbarian using an amazingly forged, weapon

It is really like apples and oranges. A sword delivering cold damage instead of slice is just "different". It isn't necessarily better or worse. But to limit barbs to never having access to these 3 damage types (while all other guilds will) doesn't seem fair or fun. At least until they get Blizzard Dance or Lightning Zerk or something giving them similar inherant properties to their damage. I don't see that happening though :P

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You have to look at the fun side of things when you suggest changes like that... How fair is it has to be glanced at to... How does a barb being able to use a gweth, moongate or a blessed weapon hurt us? If them being able to do something, doesn't hurt us at all... why do we care? Its a minor convenance in the case of a gweth and a moongate, and very close to the same for a bless. On the flipside of the coin you'd hope the same sort of convenance would be provided to the magic users when there are such cases. Mmmm barbs not effecting your spells if they are in your group! Anyways lets not get off topic here.


I asked my friend(who is a barb) the other day if he thought barbarians should be able to use enchanted weapons, his response was, 'If it just sets on fire or something simular sure, but if casts a spell heck no'. I thought about that for a moment, and yeah thats pretty fair... it is just fire, ice, earth.. Mmm but perhaps things like aether for sure would not be a thing they could use as its not all that natural. Also wind and electricity, they would be slightly more magical in nature or should be, as how does one harness those two without being a mage. (I said ice above instead of water, as water would definately need some aether in their to keep it held to the weapon)


Lets also look at it like this, if it is just a weak flame/whatever... and even weaker because it has less effectiveness in a barbs hands. How many critters would have decent enough natural armor/real armor that the fire damage would just get absorbed?


Just some thoughts.



~Worrclan, Dwarf of the Ralms-

I was under the passive enchantments would look as follows:


Normal blade:

low puncture
moderate slice
fair impact

Enchanted blade:

poor puncture
fair slice
low impact
some additional cold damage

The new damage about equal, but the benefit is in the versatility and "possibility" of exceeding the previous item's stat-point-total if you are a good enchanter.

Active Enchantments would be visible via focusing, and accessed by magic using guilds only using focus 100, rub, etc. Passive enchantments just seem pretty trivial to not let barbs use.

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>Then can I get access to roars and dances, please?

Sure!

Roars? Vertigo, Ice patch, Thunderclap, Arc Light, shockwave.

Dances? YS, Sure footing, SW, zephyr, Earth sense.

You can even replicate Whirlwind! Static discharge, or mantle of flame.

Dual load? Multiple fire shard/gar zengs/CL/etc.

And guess what? None of your abilities will cause a stun, reduce your movement/visability, and are drawn from a power pool that doesn't require any action to refil!

<<But to limit barbs to never having access to these 3 damage types (while all other guilds will) doesn't seem fair or fun. At least until they get Blizzard Dance or Lightning Zerk or something giving them similar inherant properties to their damage. I don't see that happening though :P

I won't respond to that, Ren, because I like you. But that is one of the most outrageous things I've seen someone post in awhile.

<<I asked my friend(who is a barb) the other day if he thought barbarians should be able to use enchanted weapons, his response was, 'If it just sets on fire or something simular sure, but if casts a spell heck no'. I thought about that for a moment, and yeah thats pretty fair... it is just fire, ice, earth.. Mmm but perhaps things like aether for sure would not be a thing they could use as its not all that natural. Also wind and electricity, they would be slightly more magical in nature or should be, as how does one harness those two without being a mage. (I said ice above instead of water, as water would definately need some aether in their to keep it held to the weapon)

Just like those Barb Inner Fire weapons can only be used by Barbs...real fair for everyone else. I'm not saying they shouldn't be able to use magical weapons, but, if they do - they should hurt their inner fire and possibly be completely blocked/nullified by their MR. To my knowledge, Barb's can't use MM CJ's - an item imbued with Lunar magic, that is activated using MD. Last I checked, the Weapon Enchanting process would be creating a magical device. Last I checked, Barbs were very limited in what Magical Devices they can and cannot use (With most of the ones they can use for playability...gweths, MG's, etc). Last I checked, it is not neccesary for flaming or icy swords. It just doesn't make sense to me, considering their Guild Focus, for them to use a magical weapon just as well as a Magic user, let alone an NMU without super-charged allergies towards Magic. That was the trade off for the ability to do super-human things without the use of Mana.

<<There's a very distinct line that puts barbarians on one side of, that everyone else is on the other side of. And that's their disdain of magic. Cast a Zephyr w/ a barbarian in the room who's MR you can overcome. They scowl. They hate magic. A magical sword is, well, magic. Fun should never trump guild theory, and I just can't see how magically-imbued weaponry could be made to fit into the life of a barbarian. If you wanted magic and you joined the barbarian guild, well, you joined the wrong guild. But like I said before, I don't think they should use gweths or moongates either. Gweths, MAYBE I could see an argument for it just amplifying an inherent ability everyone has to project their thoughts.

I like you more and more with each post. And I normally don't like people who play Olvi. But yes, I agree. Barbs are given a break on Gweths (they don't require MD to use) and MG's, for playability. Enchanted magical weapons? Gimme a break guys. They don't need them. Neither do we, technically. But, it makes infinite more sense for us to have them and not them.


<<And guess what? None of your abilities will cause a stun, reduce your movement/visability, and are drawn from a power pool that doesn't require any action to refil!

And here comes the "Grass is always Greener..." - look, I'm not and I doubt anyone else is trying to make this GvG. But, none of your abilities rely on Mana and Mana streams (something that many a Mage has died because of backfiring a spell in a stupidly low mana room because the spell didn't go off and wham, they're dead because their get out of combat card was lost). None of your abilities require targetting, or preping a spell, or thinking about the MR of creatures/yourself, or if it is resistant to a certain element. And incorrect, MANY of our abilities (spells) will cause a stun, reduce movement/visability to ourselves in certain scenarios - so you're wrong. The only difference is you know exactly what will happen. Sometimes, we catch ourselves between a rock and a hard place. Thunderclap, CL, Fire Rain, etc. all have negative drawbacks. I can't count the number of times my FR or CL nuked me. MOF makes it impossible to go stealth. Think about what you're saying before you post, please. And don't make it about GvG - if Thieves/Traders had magical allergies, I'd say the same thing: They don't deserve the right to use enchanted weapons.

~The Fire Lion Magmus Bloodston, Blackfire Enthusiast

>>But that is one of the most outrageous things I've seen someone post in awhile

But you know if they don't let barbs use enchanted weapons (in some way) there will be hell to pay :P I just want some form of enchanting out this decade, and appeasing the masses seems like the best way to acheive that goal!

The axe really can't cut both ways. Either barbs can't use magic items at all (including gweths and polo cloaks and vigil mantles, etc) Or - there are certain grey-area items that act passively and are ok for them to use. Right now the magic devices system is a mixed breed with little to no theory governing it :( Maybe Magic Devices 2.0 needs to happen before enchanting can even begin to be discussed?

Weapon enchanting can't get terribly complex. It might be resource exhaustive to have a bunch of special cases just for barbarians. Anything to keep it simple is a good thing. I dunno, the original proposal made sense. Barbs and NMUs can use blades providing mixed damage types. Everyone else can use those AND the blades actually containing potent magical effects...

I like the idea of a continual IF hit though. That might work, if it isn't too resource intense.

We'll just have to wait for the GMs to explain their thoughts on the matter, and go from there.

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>Is our fire for example really real fire or is it all magical... it seems to be used either way in various examples.

Since MR applies to all current instances of our fire, I'd say that it's magical by nature.

I feel that everybody should be able to use enchanted weapons, and the extent to which they can use them is largely dependent on their magic resistance. BMR, the strongest MR, will hinder the effects of a flaming blade. The flames, which normally leap off the tip of the blade a foot and a half for magic users, may only extend six inches for a barbarian, doing less fire damage.

However, to ban enchanted weapons from them entirely is like giving them no benefit from zephyr, or ES, or any other spell. In order to make use these spells, they take an IF hit. I feel like using an enchanted weapon will give a continual IF hit or perhaps a hit to their IF cap. Both of these would result in the sacrifice of some effectiveness of barbarian abilities in exchange for making use of war mage abilities. The degree of the tradeoff, whether they should me more or less hindered than benefited, I'm not sure about.

There is no doubt in my mind that anything with strong magic resistance should glean less benefit from an enchanted item than something with less magic resistance. However, I think that completely banning the ability to use enchanted items from anybody simply results in bad blood. I want enchanted weapons to be awesome and if another guild is wholly denied a piece of that awesome, the game balance and morale is disrupted.

Those are my thoughts after two all-nighters.

-Durnil

I'm holding my opinions until we get an updated "here's what enchanting is going to be"

Having that ASAP would be wonderful.

::cough::

Perfectly acceptable.


As something to consider, can we have it be slightly dangerous for NMU on the second option, with the potential of backlash and minor damage dealt to the wielder, say something akin to the fireball splatter damage?

>>Armifer, that post seemed slightly sarcastic. Do you feel that our debate has merit?

I think the issue was being debated in too broad of strokes. The issue isn't "Should Barbarians use magical devices?" or even "Should Barbarians be able to use Warrior Mage enchantments?" Instead, I think the relevant question is "What sort of enchantments does it make sense for Barbarians to use, and how do we design them so magic users get more use out of them?"

The Barbarian disadvantage, in this context at least, doesn't need to explored just in terms of categorical denial or permission.

-Armifer
"You can't trust a magician, Jimmy." Fox had told him. "All magicians are liars. And when magicians lie, their lies become real."

Good stuff Armifer, I agree 100%.

Compromise and balance are virtues afterall.

>But if a barbarian is to be penalized on the passive effects as well, then your suggestion would be an acceptable way of dealing with it I think.

Honestly, I think I'm comfortable with a 'clumsy' enchantment and a 'refined' enchantment system. Perhaps a Barbarian has a greater chance of burning excess charges, so as to reflect their anti-magical nature, but I don't feel like they should be terribly penalized. The advent of enchanted weapons will set a new standard not unlike the way that forged weapons did, and the damage potential of an enchanted blade must be available to everybody in order to keep the playing field level in terms of per-weapon damage.

I think that literally casting a spell on strike is a little... I dunno, unoriginal as far as the guild goes. I can already do all of those things, and don't particularly feel the need to give my spells to other folks. I'd rather have a weapon with a lightning effect, or a fire effect, etc than an actual spell.

-Durnil

>Why does everything need to have charges?

Because if something has no charges, there is no decay, and once everybody has one, they'll never need another one unless they lose it. Then, it will quickly lose any market value that it had, reducing the process of learning to enchant to a waste of time and materials.

-Durnil