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Without looking through months worth of older posts is it safe to assume that while interacting or role playing with our own kind that we need to be discreet? I haven't had much interaction with people until the past few weeks and a few times it seems that even though both parties know that we're both in the same guild they still seem.. standoffish? For lack of a better term.. I understand that it could be their RP perspective and I also understand that there are Redeemed, Philosophers, etc., but it seems to me that being a Necromancer is hard enough as it is. The way I look at it, perhaps from a strictly OOC perspective I guess, is like.. "Hey! You're a Necro? people hate you too? And you have to avoid the masses on a day to day basis?? Me too!"
Can anyone give me a quick history lesson or maybe explain how I can better go about interacting within our own guild?
"..We need those who can drink of dark power without being consumed by it."
GNOMETHIEF
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/18/2011 12:38 AM CDT
>>Can anyone give me a quick history lesson or maybe explain how I can better go about interacting within our own guild?
Some Necros might just be hermits.
Some others might have some mindset which would require the aid of others with similar mindsets
Others might function in a Professor Farnsworth vs Dr. Ogden Wernstrom manner, where they would gladly see the other fail but would also work together to accomplish something they couldn't do alone, with the hopes that the other will then fail and they can get all the credit/glory.
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
Some Necros might just be hermits.
Some others might have some mindset which would require the aid of others with similar mindsets
Others might function in a Professor Farnsworth vs Dr. Ogden Wernstrom manner, where they would gladly see the other fail but would also work together to accomplish something they couldn't do alone, with the hopes that the other will then fail and they can get all the credit/glory.
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
GERSTEINJ2
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/18/2011 08:29 AM CDT
some, like the thieves guild of old, are afraid of betrayal, even by their "own kind". This has been amplified on purpose by the GMs, when they set up "accusal" as working at decreasing your OWN SO by accusing others. Although, this could be a very fatal error on the part of someone who looks at a short-term gain of less SO vs a lifetime of hatred where one would be ostracized by owns own kind.
Also, and I'm comparing it to Thieves again - there is no "sign" language among necromancers. Although there are ways to "introduce" yourself if you think... possibly maybe... <perform cut on oneself, foraging rocks that look hideously like a corpse thats been hacked to bits, etc>. You sort of do the "is he or isn't he, or is he just a ranger or thief? or a tezirite... you sort of do the "dance around it without saying it" without coming right out and admitting what you are. To avoid accusal is the primary motivation, particularly for the up-and-coming younglings of the guild.
For one of my young characters, she is unwilling to admit to herself that she is a "necromancer" - she's far more comfortable just thinking of herself as a scholar that researches things others just don't have the stomach for. Of course, she isn't very advanced in her studies yet. Perhaps she will have a different outlook in time.
And I'm sure those who have achieved a certain notariety, or "necrolorddom", have an earned, but different, perspective.
You've seen life through distorted eyes;You know you had to learn;The execution of your mind;You really had to turn;,the book is read,The end begins to show,The truth is out, the lies are old, But you don't want to know - Black Sabbath
Also, and I'm comparing it to Thieves again - there is no "sign" language among necromancers. Although there are ways to "introduce" yourself if you think... possibly maybe... <perform cut on oneself, foraging rocks that look hideously like a corpse thats been hacked to bits, etc>. You sort of do the "is he or isn't he, or is he just a ranger or thief? or a tezirite... you sort of do the "dance around it without saying it" without coming right out and admitting what you are. To avoid accusal is the primary motivation, particularly for the up-and-coming younglings of the guild.
For one of my young characters, she is unwilling to admit to herself that she is a "necromancer" - she's far more comfortable just thinking of herself as a scholar that researches things others just don't have the stomach for. Of course, she isn't very advanced in her studies yet. Perhaps she will have a different outlook in time.
And I'm sure those who have achieved a certain notariety, or "necrolorddom", have an earned, but different, perspective.
You've seen life through distorted eyes;You know you had to learn;The execution of your mind;You really had to turn;,the book is read,The end begins to show,The truth is out, the lies are old, But you don't want to know - Black Sabbath
BIRDO
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/18/2011 08:31 AM CDT
>>Others might function in a Professor Farnsworth vs Dr. Ogden Wernstrom manner
LOL!
LOL!
DARTHIEL
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/18/2011 09:23 AM CDT
The interaction we had in the guild last night was slightly more aloof than most. My first month or so, I was struck by the politeness and camaraderie in the guildhall. Even outside the guild, to a lesser and more cautious degree. Personally, I ignore friend Necromancers in public, unless we are alone, then I limit it to a simple greeting that does not give anything away, in case we are being watched.
There's one understated greeting many of the necros use. Kinda reminds me of how I used to RP my cleric: with very understated Clint Eastwood type motions. You could almost hear the Sergio Leone composition in the background... :D
____________________________________
"4.116 Everything that can be thought at all can be thought clearly. Everything that can be said can be said clearly." ~Wittgenstein, 'Tractatus'
There's one understated greeting many of the necros use. Kinda reminds me of how I used to RP my cleric: with very understated Clint Eastwood type motions. You could almost hear the Sergio Leone composition in the background... :D
____________________________________
"4.116 Everything that can be thought at all can be thought clearly. Everything that can be said can be said clearly." ~Wittgenstein, 'Tractatus'
GNOMETHIEF
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/18/2011 06:58 PM CDT
<<Also, and I'm comparing it to Thieves again - there is no "sign" language among necromancers. Although there are ways to "introduce" yourself if you think... possibly maybe... <perform cut on oneself, foraging rocks that look hideously like a corpse thats been hacked to bits, etc>. You sort of do the "is he or isn't he, or is he just a ranger or thief? or a tezirite... you sort of do the "dance around it without saying it" without coming right out and admitting what you are. To avoid accusal is the primary motivation, particularly for the up-and-coming younglings of the guild.
Sorry I should have been a bit more specific. This happened within the guild, so there was no need to go around cutting ourselves :) And I don't know how your Necromancer can go around being jaded into not believing she's NOT a Necromancer unless she never circles or visits the guild.
<< Personally, I ignore friend Necromancers in public, unless we are alone, then I limit it to a simple greeting that does not give anything away, in case we are being watched.
This I can agree to, but again, you and I were in the guild when this happened. And I don't blame the other Necromancer in question I guess I just assumed that within the walls of our sanctuary we could all just relax, hang out, and talk about zombies and such..
"..We need those who can drink of dark power without being consumed by it."
Sorry I should have been a bit more specific. This happened within the guild, so there was no need to go around cutting ourselves :) And I don't know how your Necromancer can go around being jaded into not believing she's NOT a Necromancer unless she never circles or visits the guild.
<< Personally, I ignore friend Necromancers in public, unless we are alone, then I limit it to a simple greeting that does not give anything away, in case we are being watched.
This I can agree to, but again, you and I were in the guild when this happened. And I don't blame the other Necromancer in question I guess I just assumed that within the walls of our sanctuary we could all just relax, hang out, and talk about zombies and such..
"..We need those who can drink of dark power without being consumed by it."
FELONIOUSPI
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/18/2011 11:27 PM CDT
>>I guess I just assumed that within the walls of our sanctuary we could all just relax, hang out, and talk about zombies and such..
Im assuming your in plat , but it really doesn't matter . The scenario you are describing, that I quoted , does happen quite a bit. Don't judge too quick. Seems like you were present for a "guild" important gathering . Which means many have their RP shoes one . But I this is just taken from your statements for I was not present to experience such .
Either way the moral of my response is that such dose occur
Im assuming your in plat , but it really doesn't matter . The scenario you are describing, that I quoted , does happen quite a bit. Don't judge too quick. Seems like you were present for a "guild" important gathering . Which means many have their RP shoes one . But I this is just taken from your statements for I was not present to experience such .
Either way the moral of my response is that such dose occur
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/19/2011 12:01 AM CDT
I'm still surprised anyone would 'kick back' in the guild. I'd treat that thing like a smugglers den, and by smugglers, I mean crazy psychotic unhinged murderers, and by den, I mean hornets nest.
FELONIOUSPI
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/19/2011 12:19 AM CDT
>> I mean hornets nest.
I can see how this makes sense OOC , but the huge difference between those that gather under the Philosophers , is ; there's no reason for some sort of a explosive event to occur every time these characters come in contact .
I can see how this makes sense OOC , but the huge difference between those that gather under the Philosophers , is ; there's no reason for some sort of a explosive event to occur every time these characters come in contact .
FELONIOUSPI
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/19/2011 12:19 AM CDT
....and less reason for outsiders to understand how it works
DARTHIEL
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/19/2011 07:52 AM CDT
>I'm still surprised anyone would 'kick back' in the guild. I'd treat that thing like a smugglers den, and by smugglers, I mean crazy psychotic unhinged murderers, and by den, I mean hornets nest.
I see it as exactly the opposite. How you see it is how I see how people outside the guild would expect the Necro guildhall to be, but the truth is the exact opposite. In truth, we are a country club of the well-manner, educated, cultured elites, who have nothing to prove to our esteemed colleagues, except our willingness to be good chaps.
____________________________________
"4.116 Everything that can be thought at all can be thought clearly. Everything that can be said can be said clearly." ~Wittgenstein, 'Tractatus'
I see it as exactly the opposite. How you see it is how I see how people outside the guild would expect the Necro guildhall to be, but the truth is the exact opposite. In truth, we are a country club of the well-manner, educated, cultured elites, who have nothing to prove to our esteemed colleagues, except our willingness to be good chaps.
____________________________________
"4.116 Everything that can be thought at all can be thought clearly. Everything that can be said can be said clearly." ~Wittgenstein, 'Tractatus'
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/19/2011 08:15 AM CDT
Yeah, from an IC perspective, I would view anyone lounging at the guild as manipulative, conniving, and looking for trouble. The only thing they have to gain from idly chatting with others in a clubhall setting is having someone to throw under the proverbial bus when the time comes.
Whereas running into someone in the wilderness is a badge of mutual effort. We're both training to further the Great Work, and we'll keep our distance, but maybe trade tips, teach a class, etc.
Whereas running into someone in the wilderness is a badge of mutual effort. We're both training to further the Great Work, and we'll keep our distance, but maybe trade tips, teach a class, etc.
GERSTEINJ2
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/19/2011 01:27 PM CDT
my youngling is in prime, but only really interreacted with other necros during the "lets go throw creepy ooze at lyras" event. :-) And ran into a couple of others during the current fest. Was rather Enjoyable.
You've seen life through distorted eyes;You know you had to learn;The execution of your mind;You really had to turn;,the book is read,The end begins to show,The truth is out, the lies are old, But you don't want to know - Black Sabbath
You've seen life through distorted eyes;You know you had to learn;The execution of your mind;You really had to turn;,the book is read,The end begins to show,The truth is out, the lies are old, But you don't want to know - Black Sabbath
CRAVYD
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/19/2011 06:37 PM CDT
Mine has just been having trouble socializing as of late. Most of his friend interactions occur via ring, if he can even get ahold of them.
There's a certain mindset that starts to set in, I suppose. For the first 30 or 40 circles, mine never actually visited the common areas of the guildhall. Part of that was an OOC mindset left over from the first month or so of the guild's release. I had trouble trusting anyone in the commons area for fear they might just be a metagamer collecting names. Now, if there were this type of interaction in the Dining Hall or the Chapel, I'd probably be quite a bit more inclined to let my guard down. At least the player invested time into his character, making him easier to trust.
My necro wasn't there with you guys the other day, but that's just my perspective on in-guild amiability.
There's a certain mindset that starts to set in, I suppose. For the first 30 or 40 circles, mine never actually visited the common areas of the guildhall. Part of that was an OOC mindset left over from the first month or so of the guild's release. I had trouble trusting anyone in the commons area for fear they might just be a metagamer collecting names. Now, if there were this type of interaction in the Dining Hall or the Chapel, I'd probably be quite a bit more inclined to let my guard down. At least the player invested time into his character, making him easier to trust.
My necro wasn't there with you guys the other day, but that's just my perspective on in-guild amiability.
GERSTEINJ2
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/19/2011 08:52 PM CDT
chapel? you can get in the chapel?
You've seen life through distorted eyes;You know you had to learn;The execution of your mind;You really had to turn;,the book is read,The end begins to show,The truth is out, the lies are old, But you don't want to know - Black Sabbath
You've seen life through distorted eyes;You know you had to learn;The execution of your mind;You really had to turn;,the book is read,The end begins to show,The truth is out, the lies are old, But you don't want to know - Black Sabbath
COOPERG8
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/20/2011 02:07 PM CDT
GNOMETHIEF, I'm assuming you meant that little gathering we had. If it helps make sense of why our guildmates tend to be a little formal with each other, then think of this way.
All of our characters are competing for the same thing. They are aware of this. They are also aware of the fact that the only reason the guild hasn't exploded into an orgy of violent infighting is because Book would smack them down if they did.
So think of the attitude being a fake refined aura meant to cover up the murderous impulses of the dozens of knife wielding maniacs that tend to gather at the guildhall.
All of our characters are competing for the same thing. They are aware of this. They are also aware of the fact that the only reason the guild hasn't exploded into an orgy of violent infighting is because Book would smack them down if they did.
So think of the attitude being a fake refined aura meant to cover up the murderous impulses of the dozens of knife wielding maniacs that tend to gather at the guildhall.
CRAVYD
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/20/2011 02:27 PM CDT
>>chapel? you can get in the chapel?
::cough cough:: Did I say chapel? What chapel? I don't know what you're talking about... <a small bead of sweat forms on his eyebrow>
::cough cough:: Did I say chapel? What chapel? I don't know what you're talking about... <a small bead of sweat forms on his eyebrow>
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/20/2011 03:34 PM CDT
>>all of our characters are competing for the same thing. They are aware of this. They are also aware of the fact that the only reason the guild hasn't exploded into an orgy of violent infighting is because Book would smack them down if they did.
I feel this is an excellent way of putting it. We're maniacs, we're insane, we're narcissistic psychopaths, and seeing our kind isn't an exercise in hugs and smiles, it should cause barely contained rage at the audacity of others to thinking they're going to get there first.
I feel this is an excellent way of putting it. We're maniacs, we're insane, we're narcissistic psychopaths, and seeing our kind isn't an exercise in hugs and smiles, it should cause barely contained rage at the audacity of others to thinking they're going to get there first.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/20/2011 03:43 PM CDT
Exactly: Farnsworth vs Wernstrom
That said, my first necro more or less just wanted to take the immortals and ruling class down a peg, and was rather pleased if others were interested doing the same
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
That said, my first necro more or less just wanted to take the immortals and ruling class down a peg, and was rather pleased if others were interested doing the same
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
BIRDO
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/20/2011 03:54 PM CDT
My interactions with others in the guild area have been quite collegial.
RETZLAFFB
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/20/2011 06:24 PM CDT
>>all of our characters are competing for the same thing. They are aware of this. They are also aware of the fact that the only reason the guild hasn't exploded into an orgy of violent infighting is because Book would smack them down if they did.
I don't really understand what you believe they are competing for. While there's a wide variety of Necromancers, there is a group that are actively cooperating and sharing knowledge. This is Book's group, and it is through their efforts that PCs become Necromancers. Given this, I don't see why it's so hard to believe that the majority of PC necros would also have the notion that we should be cooperating and sharing knowledge to some degree.
I don't really understand what you believe they are competing for. While there's a wide variety of Necromancers, there is a group that are actively cooperating and sharing knowledge. This is Book's group, and it is through their efforts that PCs become Necromancers. Given this, I don't see why it's so hard to believe that the majority of PC necros would also have the notion that we should be cooperating and sharing knowledge to some degree.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/20/2011 08:09 PM CDT
>>This is Book's group, and it is through their efforts that PCs become Necromancers.
My interpretation of the Philosophers is not one of 'we're all int his together, sharing and helping one another', but rather, we're all baby squid, and the world is full of whales that are trying to eat us, and our options are either stay as far away from everything and anything as possible and avoid notice, or, stick in as large a group as possible and hope someone else gets eaten, but definitely, certain, absolutely don't hesitate to throw someone else into the gaping maw of society or the Gods.
Because if we escape, avoid detection, only then can we grow into Giant Squid, and devour our aggressors! Bahahaha.
My interpretation of the Philosophers is not one of 'we're all int his together, sharing and helping one another', but rather, we're all baby squid, and the world is full of whales that are trying to eat us, and our options are either stay as far away from everything and anything as possible and avoid notice, or, stick in as large a group as possible and hope someone else gets eaten, but definitely, certain, absolutely don't hesitate to throw someone else into the gaping maw of society or the Gods.
Because if we escape, avoid detection, only then can we grow into Giant Squid, and devour our aggressors! Bahahaha.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/20/2011 08:36 PM CDT
>>This is Book's group, and it is through their efforts that PCs become Necromancers. Given this, I don't see why it's so hard to believe that the majority of PC necros would also have the notion that we should be cooperating and sharing knowledge to some degree.
"Book's group" are arguably Star Trek red shirts and interns for life combined in the worst way possible.
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
"Book's group" are arguably Star Trek red shirts and interns for life combined in the worst way possible.
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
DARTHIEL
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/20/2011 08:47 PM CDT
>"Book's group" are arguably Star Trek red shirts and interns for life combined in the worst way possible.
Are "Star Trek red shirts" the characters who you've never seen before who beam down to the planet with the main characters, and who you know are going to inevitably die the first moment there's any trouble with the evil denizens of said planet?
I don't even have a guess for the meaning of "interns for life".
____________________________________
"4.116 Everything that can be thought at all can be thought clearly. Everything that can be said can be said clearly." ~Wittgenstein, 'Tractatus'
Are "Star Trek red shirts" the characters who you've never seen before who beam down to the planet with the main characters, and who you know are going to inevitably die the first moment there's any trouble with the evil denizens of said planet?
I don't even have a guess for the meaning of "interns for life".
____________________________________
"4.116 Everything that can be thought at all can be thought clearly. Everything that can be said can be said clearly." ~Wittgenstein, 'Tractatus'
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/20/2011 08:50 PM CDT
>>"Book's group" are arguably Star Trek red shirts and interns for life combined in the worst way possible.
This. You who think we're in this together didn't read up on the guild close enough.
This. You who think we're in this together didn't read up on the guild close enough.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/20/2011 08:59 PM CDT
>>Are "Star Trek red shirts" the characters who you've never seen before who beam down to the planet with the main characters, and who you know are going to inevitably die the first moment there's any trouble with the evil denizens of said planet?
Yes.
>>I don't even have a guess for the meaning of "interns for life".
Free labor for Book's own goals.
Granted, that's only one way of looking at it. It's just that Book isn't really the most altruistic person in my mind. I'm just sure he has his own goals for why he's recruiting more and more Philosophers into the fold. I can't imagine that goal involving someone else getting all the power and glory as opposed to Book.
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
Yes.
>>I don't even have a guess for the meaning of "interns for life".
Free labor for Book's own goals.
Granted, that's only one way of looking at it. It's just that Book isn't really the most altruistic person in my mind. I'm just sure he has his own goals for why he's recruiting more and more Philosophers into the fold. I can't imagine that goal involving someone else getting all the power and glory as opposed to Book.
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
GNOMETHIEF
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/20/2011 09:52 PM CDT
<<GNOMETHIEF, I'm assuming you meant that little gathering we had. If it helps make sense of why our guildmates tend to be a little formal with each other, then think of this way.
<<All of our characters are competing for the same thing. They are aware of this. They are also aware of the fact that the only reason the guild hasn't exploded into an orgy of violent infighting is because Book would smack them down if they did.
<<So think of the attitude being a fake refined aura meant to cover up the murderous impulses of the dozens of knife wielding maniacs that tend to gather at the guildhall.
My character isn't competing for anything. My character feels a kinship with other Necromancer's because they understand my/our plight. Maybe this is just me projecting my own thoughts into my character, and if I need to change my tune I will.
I do see the reasons for our characters to be skeptical of anyone, including other Necromancer's, so I don't deny the logic. However, this Necromancer is my only character and because of that I don't have any other in game means of communication with other characters. I enjoy talking with buddies on AIM while I play but running around an expansive MUD by yourself gets boring quick.
I'm not trying to turn this into a therapy session where I lie on a couch and cry to everyone about having no "friends" but I don't understand the logic behind sitting in our guild, invisible, while there's another Necromancer's hanging around. There's a real lack of RP in this guild and it's because everyone plays their character as an aloof member of society... which is what it is I guess, we're all pariah's, so maybe that's just something I need to accept?
"..We need those who can drink of dark power without being consumed by it."
AIM: Snert Hurter
<<All of our characters are competing for the same thing. They are aware of this. They are also aware of the fact that the only reason the guild hasn't exploded into an orgy of violent infighting is because Book would smack them down if they did.
<<So think of the attitude being a fake refined aura meant to cover up the murderous impulses of the dozens of knife wielding maniacs that tend to gather at the guildhall.
My character isn't competing for anything. My character feels a kinship with other Necromancer's because they understand my/our plight. Maybe this is just me projecting my own thoughts into my character, and if I need to change my tune I will.
I do see the reasons for our characters to be skeptical of anyone, including other Necromancer's, so I don't deny the logic. However, this Necromancer is my only character and because of that I don't have any other in game means of communication with other characters. I enjoy talking with buddies on AIM while I play but running around an expansive MUD by yourself gets boring quick.
I'm not trying to turn this into a therapy session where I lie on a couch and cry to everyone about having no "friends" but I don't understand the logic behind sitting in our guild, invisible, while there's another Necromancer's hanging around. There's a real lack of RP in this guild and it's because everyone plays their character as an aloof member of society... which is what it is I guess, we're all pariah's, so maybe that's just something I need to accept?
"..We need those who can drink of dark power without being consumed by it."
AIM: Snert Hurter
DARTHIEL
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/20/2011 09:53 PM CDT
I've almost always agreed with you on Necro matters, PB, but I very much differ in this case. It seems to me like you guys are over-thinking some things, and under-analyzing others.
First, I don't see Book as a Red Shirt. The only purpose of the red shirts was to die. They allowed for rising action in the plot without killing off a major character every week. Book is not 'merely expendable'; he is the plot. His death, though as inevitable as the Red Shirts, will bring about major change for everyone involved in the story arc. The question then becomes, "Does Book know what we know: that he is doomed?" If yes, then 'Book as ambitious manipulator' cannot be true; he would have to be recast as 'Fanatical True Believer (though perhaps with a Martyr Complex)'. I don't want to take too much time discussing that possibility now...
I think you guys are over-thinking Necromancers in that you are tying Book's motives into the whole of Necromancers' personalities. I don't think what Book thinks matters to the question of 'how sociable are Necromancers amongst each other?'
What really seems to matter is simpler: like survivors of a ship wreck, we are bonded by a profound, life-changing common experience that is not shared by others. Moreover, the in-group/out-group distinction is further delineated by the fact that "They" all HATE "Us". That's a bonding experience of the highest degree...
There's also an evolutionary selection mechanism: given the incredible and immediate pressures to learn mutual confidentiality, trust has to be developed, again 'of the highest order'. Those not capable of in-group fidelity AND the ability to trust colleagues AND the ability to be trusted, would soon be eliminated.
I don't believe the Necromancer Guild is any place for the disorganized, antisocial personality types you guys are describing. The truth, as I see it, is that Necros must be highly spiritual, intellectual, and emotionally mature altruists who are courageous enough to undertake an effort for the good of all, despite being ostracized for it.
I'm trying hard not to overstate my case while giving it due diligence.
____________________________________
"4.116 Everything that can be thought at all can be thought clearly. Everything that can be said can be said clearly." ~Wittgenstein, 'Tractatus'
First, I don't see Book as a Red Shirt. The only purpose of the red shirts was to die. They allowed for rising action in the plot without killing off a major character every week. Book is not 'merely expendable'; he is the plot. His death, though as inevitable as the Red Shirts, will bring about major change for everyone involved in the story arc. The question then becomes, "Does Book know what we know: that he is doomed?" If yes, then 'Book as ambitious manipulator' cannot be true; he would have to be recast as 'Fanatical True Believer (though perhaps with a Martyr Complex)'. I don't want to take too much time discussing that possibility now...
I think you guys are over-thinking Necromancers in that you are tying Book's motives into the whole of Necromancers' personalities. I don't think what Book thinks matters to the question of 'how sociable are Necromancers amongst each other?'
What really seems to matter is simpler: like survivors of a ship wreck, we are bonded by a profound, life-changing common experience that is not shared by others. Moreover, the in-group/out-group distinction is further delineated by the fact that "They" all HATE "Us". That's a bonding experience of the highest degree...
There's also an evolutionary selection mechanism: given the incredible and immediate pressures to learn mutual confidentiality, trust has to be developed, again 'of the highest order'. Those not capable of in-group fidelity AND the ability to trust colleagues AND the ability to be trusted, would soon be eliminated.
I don't believe the Necromancer Guild is any place for the disorganized, antisocial personality types you guys are describing. The truth, as I see it, is that Necros must be highly spiritual, intellectual, and emotionally mature altruists who are courageous enough to undertake an effort for the good of all, despite being ostracized for it.
I'm trying hard not to overstate my case while giving it due diligence.
____________________________________
"4.116 Everything that can be thought at all can be thought clearly. Everything that can be said can be said clearly." ~Wittgenstein, 'Tractatus'
GNOMETHIEF
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/20/2011 09:56 PM CDT
<<I don't believe the Necromancer Guild is any place for the disorganized, antisocial personality types you guys are describing. The truth, as I see it, is that Necros must be highly spiritual, intellectual, and emotionally mature altruists who are courageous enough to undertake an effort for the good of all, despite being ostracized for it.
This.
"..We need those who can drink of dark power without being consumed by it."
AIM: Snert Hurter
This.
"..We need those who can drink of dark power without being consumed by it."
AIM: Snert Hurter
ALGOTHI
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/20/2011 10:15 PM CDT
>First, I don't see Book as a Red Shirt.
I think he was implying that PC necromancers are Red Shirts.
Also there are some signs that Book is not as fatherly of a figure as he likes recruits to think he is. Considering his past, it wouldn't be a huge logical jump to assume that should anyone discover something about the work he already didn't know he would get it, by force if needed.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
I think he was implying that PC necromancers are Red Shirts.
Also there are some signs that Book is not as fatherly of a figure as he likes recruits to think he is. Considering his past, it wouldn't be a huge logical jump to assume that should anyone discover something about the work he already didn't know he would get it, by force if needed.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
RETZLAFFB
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/20/2011 10:15 PM CDT
>>"Book's group" are arguably Star Trek red shirts and interns for life combined in the worst way possible.
It wasn't my intention to imply that they are all following him blindly waiting to be sacrificed. What I am saying is that there is a section of Philosophers that cooperate and share ideas. It means they see the value in not being completely alone in a world populated by people that hate your existence. Considering you are taken in by this group, the "I'm going to be the first to the Great Work and I'm going to actively work against the others" outlook would not be the norm.
It wasn't my intention to imply that they are all following him blindly waiting to be sacrificed. What I am saying is that there is a section of Philosophers that cooperate and share ideas. It means they see the value in not being completely alone in a world populated by people that hate your existence. Considering you are taken in by this group, the "I'm going to be the first to the Great Work and I'm going to actively work against the others" outlook would not be the norm.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/20/2011 11:00 PM CDT
>>First, I don't see Book as a Red Shirt.
He's not.
YOU might be.
>>It wasn't my intention to imply that they are all following him blindly waiting to be sacrificed.
The people working for him may have their own aspirations and goals, but at the same time there's probably a strong chance that no matter what he openly says, Book could see the majority of them as nothing but useful idiots.
If your Necromancer's goal is to just take the gods down a peg, then you might not care who does it. On the other hand, if your Necromancer's goal is to supersede the gods, then you might not be that thrilled to see someone else in the fold do it, because now not only did someone become stronger than the gods, but that person knows a good chunk of your tricks and most likely better recognizes how big of a a threat you really are.
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
He's not.
YOU might be.
>>It wasn't my intention to imply that they are all following him blindly waiting to be sacrificed.
The people working for him may have their own aspirations and goals, but at the same time there's probably a strong chance that no matter what he openly says, Book could see the majority of them as nothing but useful idiots.
If your Necromancer's goal is to just take the gods down a peg, then you might not care who does it. On the other hand, if your Necromancer's goal is to supersede the gods, then you might not be that thrilled to see someone else in the fold do it, because now not only did someone become stronger than the gods, but that person knows a good chunk of your tricks and most likely better recognizes how big of a a threat you really are.
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
DARTHIEL
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/20/2011 11:18 PM CDT
I have the dreadful tendency to open with a throw-away point that is highly debatable, contingent, and doesn't further my argument anyway, so I deserve the fact that the only responses to my argument obliquely addressed 'that and only that' throw-away paragraph. It happens every time I do it. Perhaps someday I will break myself of the habit.
I hope someone read and considered the rest of what I was saying, which is the part I actually cared about.
____________________________________
"4.116 Everything that can be thought at all can be thought clearly. Everything that can be said can be said clearly." ~Wittgenstein, 'Tractatus'
I hope someone read and considered the rest of what I was saying, which is the part I actually cared about.
____________________________________
"4.116 Everything that can be thought at all can be thought clearly. Everything that can be said can be said clearly." ~Wittgenstein, 'Tractatus'
CRAVYD
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/21/2011 12:05 AM CDT
>>I hope someone read and considered the rest of what I was saying, which is the part I actually cared about.
Some of us did, but have been busy in the meantime to actually post on it.
As for the mutual bond, you're right, there is one. The problem you will run across is identifying the trustworthy individuals to share that bond, spark of ingenuity. RP is there, it just needs individuals to take advantage of the evil aspects of this game.
We laud the fact that the philosophers as a whole are mere scholars, attempting to derive the process behind divine secession. The underlying problem has been seen before with the lore behind the guild. Even the Old Man knows that our goals are ultimately unattainable, but continues to let us strive for it none the wiser. There are far too many references to necromancy bringing an abrupt end to the universe to ignore the fact that these monks are really just delusional, murderous, and generally loathsome by the rest of the world for good reason. Don't forget the temptation of the Hunger or the filth that penetrates your character with every spell cast. Some philosophers find it delicious, some find it disturbing, others find it as a means to an end. There are many delectably evil things associated with being a philosopher, so I 'm not surprised if the interaction you find isn't always good, even between each other. My character would most definitely throw his own under the bus if it came down to it, simply because as an evil being, he's not going to always watch out for those around him. Such is his nature, to be a survivalist.
As for Book, I consider him a means to an end. I don't consider him a father figure or leader of any sort. I see him as a formidable teacher. He knows what my character does not yet, and he is willing to teach it. This makes him tolerable for a while. Other than that, I wouldn't cry if he was murdered, or suffered death at the hands of Khurek. It would be unfortunate at best to not be able to learn anything else from him. He started this gathering with his own agenda, preserving the knowledge of the Alchemy. I don't assume that he's a caring individual, merely a Triumphant one.
If you want a bit more insight, look into the necromancer guild visions: http://elanthipedia.com/wiki/Necromancer_Guild_Visions. Thanks to Xzean for that page. Its really useful as a reminder of the lore behind the guild in its current form, not really necromancer history.
Some of us did, but have been busy in the meantime to actually post on it.
As for the mutual bond, you're right, there is one. The problem you will run across is identifying the trustworthy individuals to share that bond, spark of ingenuity. RP is there, it just needs individuals to take advantage of the evil aspects of this game.
We laud the fact that the philosophers as a whole are mere scholars, attempting to derive the process behind divine secession. The underlying problem has been seen before with the lore behind the guild. Even the Old Man knows that our goals are ultimately unattainable, but continues to let us strive for it none the wiser. There are far too many references to necromancy bringing an abrupt end to the universe to ignore the fact that these monks are really just delusional, murderous, and generally loathsome by the rest of the world for good reason. Don't forget the temptation of the Hunger or the filth that penetrates your character with every spell cast. Some philosophers find it delicious, some find it disturbing, others find it as a means to an end. There are many delectably evil things associated with being a philosopher, so I 'm not surprised if the interaction you find isn't always good, even between each other. My character would most definitely throw his own under the bus if it came down to it, simply because as an evil being, he's not going to always watch out for those around him. Such is his nature, to be a survivalist.
As for Book, I consider him a means to an end. I don't consider him a father figure or leader of any sort. I see him as a formidable teacher. He knows what my character does not yet, and he is willing to teach it. This makes him tolerable for a while. Other than that, I wouldn't cry if he was murdered, or suffered death at the hands of Khurek. It would be unfortunate at best to not be able to learn anything else from him. He started this gathering with his own agenda, preserving the knowledge of the Alchemy. I don't assume that he's a caring individual, merely a Triumphant one.
If you want a bit more insight, look into the necromancer guild visions: http://elanthipedia.com/wiki/Necromancer_Guild_Visions. Thanks to Xzean for that page. Its really useful as a reminder of the lore behind the guild in its current form, not really necromancer history.
DARTHIEL
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/21/2011 06:55 AM CDT
I just want to be clear that I am not suggesting anyone change his or her RP or POV. There is definitely room for all manifestations and sorts -- from Asemath grads to Drelstead drop-outs. Et al. In fact, I am surprised by my own opinion. When I first started my Necro, less than two months ago, I only had in mind what we call 'Perverse' in DR. My character had different ideas. He wanted to be more of a Philosopher, and I go where he leads.
Every time, so far, I've engaged in discussion on the Necro boards, I get enjoyable discourse and learn something I didn't know before.
I'd not seen all those visions previously. They are all very interesting. This one stood out to me right now:
>Violent winds howl in your ears, not quite obscuring a multitude of distant moans and screams. Your vision slowly comes into focus, revealing three figures facing each other, weapons drawn, amidst a swirling crimson dust storm.
>To your left is a young Human man, wielding a curved silver dagger and covered by a dark overcoat. To your right is an Adan'f, holding a mattock and wearing a crude hauberk. Directly across from you is an elderly Halfling woman, in a blood-stained white robe and tensely gripping an oaken cudgel.
>A blast of ruddy sand momentarily obscures your vision, but not the clash of weapons. Within a second the figures have turned on each other with murderous intent. Their three-way melee continues unabated as the storm rises around them, consuming everything with its stinging grit.
I see the internal conflict between Philosophers, Redeemed, and Perverse in this vision. The differences we're discussing now, though metaphorically, considering the conflict is just polite forums discussion and not open IC hostilities. Some GM was prescient. Anyone see anything different?
____________________________________
"4.116 Everything that can be thought at all can be thought clearly. Everything that can be said can be said clearly." ~Wittgenstein, 'Tractatus'
Every time, so far, I've engaged in discussion on the Necro boards, I get enjoyable discourse and learn something I didn't know before.
I'd not seen all those visions previously. They are all very interesting. This one stood out to me right now:
>Violent winds howl in your ears, not quite obscuring a multitude of distant moans and screams. Your vision slowly comes into focus, revealing three figures facing each other, weapons drawn, amidst a swirling crimson dust storm.
>To your left is a young Human man, wielding a curved silver dagger and covered by a dark overcoat. To your right is an Adan'f, holding a mattock and wearing a crude hauberk. Directly across from you is an elderly Halfling woman, in a blood-stained white robe and tensely gripping an oaken cudgel.
>A blast of ruddy sand momentarily obscures your vision, but not the clash of weapons. Within a second the figures have turned on each other with murderous intent. Their three-way melee continues unabated as the storm rises around them, consuming everything with its stinging grit.
I see the internal conflict between Philosophers, Redeemed, and Perverse in this vision. The differences we're discussing now, though metaphorically, considering the conflict is just polite forums discussion and not open IC hostilities. Some GM was prescient. Anyone see anything different?
____________________________________
"4.116 Everything that can be thought at all can be thought clearly. Everything that can be said can be said clearly." ~Wittgenstein, 'Tractatus'
GERSTEINJ2
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/21/2011 08:02 AM CDT
<<Also there are some signs that Book is not as fatherly of a figure as he likes recruits to think he is. Considering his past, it wouldn't be a huge logical jump to assume that should anyone discover something about the work he already didn't know he would get it, by force if needed.>>
this. considering he is reponsible for the whole-sale murder of the previous occupants of the <place>, and that when he originally made his journey to the west, he didn't "save" his paladin "friend", he zombified him -- basically our PCs are the means to an end - the culmination of the 'great work' - that he is bound and determined to find no matter what the cost.
Our "esteemed" guildleader is a murderer, have no doubts about that. A comparable RL example of the hold the "triumphant" has on the other philosophers is sort of like a Charlie Manson like cult.
It will be interesting to see what events will be fomented once other options besides the philosophers are opened up to our PCs <redemption, the perverse>. I'm also looking forward to more in-depth knowledge about the existing guild, perhaps to be found in a library or something, once the gms are done with coding and making all the 3.0 stuff.
You've seen life through distorted eyes;You know you had to learn;The execution of your mind;You really had to turn;,the book is read,The end begins to show,The truth is out, the lies are old, But you don't want to know - Black Sabbath
this. considering he is reponsible for the whole-sale murder of the previous occupants of the <place>, and that when he originally made his journey to the west, he didn't "save" his paladin "friend", he zombified him -- basically our PCs are the means to an end - the culmination of the 'great work' - that he is bound and determined to find no matter what the cost.
Our "esteemed" guildleader is a murderer, have no doubts about that. A comparable RL example of the hold the "triumphant" has on the other philosophers is sort of like a Charlie Manson like cult.
It will be interesting to see what events will be fomented once other options besides the philosophers are opened up to our PCs <redemption, the perverse>. I'm also looking forward to more in-depth knowledge about the existing guild, perhaps to be found in a library or something, once the gms are done with coding and making all the 3.0 stuff.
You've seen life through distorted eyes;You know you had to learn;The execution of your mind;You really had to turn;,the book is read,The end begins to show,The truth is out, the lies are old, But you don't want to know - Black Sabbath
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/21/2011 10:07 AM CDT
I don't think it's unreasonable to have a couple trusted friends, in or out of the Necromancer guild, but I do think it's against the motif of the guild to treat all Necromancers you meet in the guild hall as allies.
An important distinction here people is in the name of the guild itself; Philosopher of the Knife does NOT mean we like swinging knives. I'm serious about this; our Philosophy, what we are named for, has very little to do with our actual use of ritual knives or our very mild LE requirement.
There's no question as to whether or not Book is a murderer; he is.
Seriously, there are a lot of claims about what people think is going on here; just read the elanthipedia for a better idea of the flavor of things:
http://elanthipedia.com/wiki/Necromancer
Again, I'm not saying it's unreasonable to have friends or allies, but sitting in the Necromancers guild and socializing is, in my opinion, wholly against the gyst of our Philosophy.
An important distinction here people is in the name of the guild itself; Philosopher of the Knife does NOT mean we like swinging knives. I'm serious about this; our Philosophy, what we are named for, has very little to do with our actual use of ritual knives or our very mild LE requirement.
There's no question as to whether or not Book is a murderer; he is.
Seriously, there are a lot of claims about what people think is going on here; just read the elanthipedia for a better idea of the flavor of things:
http://elanthipedia.com/wiki/Necromancer
Again, I'm not saying it's unreasonable to have friends or allies, but sitting in the Necromancers guild and socializing is, in my opinion, wholly against the gyst of our Philosophy.
DARTHIEL
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/21/2011 02:45 PM CDT
>I don't think it's unreasonable to have a couple trusted friends, in or out of the Necromancer guild, but I do think it's against the motif of the guild to treat all Necromancers you meet in the guild hall as allies.
I don't think anyone was talking about the latter, being a pallyanna fool. As I see it, we were talking about being cordial and civil up to and no more then the average, 'normal' amount.
I made a case why a normal amount of civility was appropriate among Necromancers, and no one has offered a counter-argument, so unless someone can reasonably demonstrate why I am wrong, I am sticking with it.
____________________________________
"4.116 Everything that can be thought at all can be thought clearly. Everything that can be said can be said clearly." ~Wittgenstein, 'Tractatus'
I don't think anyone was talking about the latter, being a pallyanna fool. As I see it, we were talking about being cordial and civil up to and no more then the average, 'normal' amount.
I made a case why a normal amount of civility was appropriate among Necromancers, and no one has offered a counter-argument, so unless someone can reasonably demonstrate why I am wrong, I am sticking with it.
____________________________________
"4.116 Everything that can be thought at all can be thought clearly. Everything that can be said can be said clearly." ~Wittgenstein, 'Tractatus'
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/21/2011 04:41 PM CDT
I think it was repeatedly pointed out that the degree of civility we should afford one another is akin to the degree of civility that, say, a gazelle would afford it's fellow herds mates in the face of a Lion approaching; it'll warn them, certainly, but it isn't about to stop and make sure Bob got away if it hears chomping.
We afford one another civility because being rude, or hurling zombies or spells is LOUD. The name of the game for most of us should be tiptoeing, blending in, and trying to remain as incognito as possible.
We afford one another civility because being rude, or hurling zombies or spells is LOUD. The name of the game for most of us should be tiptoeing, blending in, and trying to remain as incognito as possible.
DARTHIEL
Re: Interactions with our own kind
05/21/2011 10:34 PM CDT
>We afford one another civility because being rude, or hurling zombies or spells is LOUD. The name of the game for most of us should be tiptoeing, blending in, and trying to remain as incognito as possible.
Hmm, good point. Definitely food for thought. I wonder what would be the conclusion if we extended your theory to all Necromancers doing the same thing, interdependently over time...
____________________________________
"4.116 Everything that can be thought at all can be thought clearly. Everything that can be said can be said clearly." ~Wittgenstein, 'Tractatus'
Hmm, good point. Definitely food for thought. I wonder what would be the conclusion if we extended your theory to all Necromancers doing the same thing, interdependently over time...
____________________________________
"4.116 Everything that can be thought at all can be thought clearly. Everything that can be said can be said clearly." ~Wittgenstein, 'Tractatus'
