>Now watch someone who's actually try it produce a message than easily answers those questions.

I used a commune on a Necro. It produced messaging to the effect of 'that was bloody stupid, your devotion is now 0'. Not anything groundbreaking, for either the cleric or the necro.

>It's a big inconvenience.

I have no idea what you consider anything worse than 'an inconvenience', aside from Caramel's suggest of killing, setting skills to 0, and deleting, the character. The GMs aren't going to inflict permanent issues on characters, no 'You're locked out of X for Z years, thanks', which seems to be what you're angling for. Rather than go 'no, you're wrong, that's not nasty at all, it's cake', why not explain what a sufficient penalty would be? Because, again, building devotion from 0 is a days long process of being tied to nothing but devotion rituals. It's not fun, fast, or particularly enjoyable, and has severe drawbacks.

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Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.

>>Plus any spell that requires a ritual , thantalogy in motion. Is only castable by a necromancer.

I would pretty much count consume and devour as thematic as well, but yes.

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When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/

>Its basically using the gods powers for evil, and the exact opposite of what they were designed for.

Technically, there are evil gods. The 13/39 are not the happy cheerful bunch. The dark side guys are really dark. The roles of the gods vs. necromancy is complicated, and not best boiled down to 'good vs. evil'.

>I think as a cleric in particular casting necromancer spells should result in the cleric being smited, and unable to resurrect themselves using MF, but thats just me.

I want to say loss of MF may be an actual effect of something. But you're really not grasping things here. Death and no MF, unless you meant permanently (which is just as likely to happen as you losing, say, all of an entire spellbook, mudmen, and zombies, forever), are...terribly inconsequential. It'll take 5 minutes to come back from a death, even without MF triggering. Death is annoying in that it clears your pools, and that's about it. Devotion is a much more severe loss to clerics.

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Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.

>The dark side guys are really dark. The roles of the gods vs. necromancy is complicated, and not best boiled down to 'good vs. evil'.

Ehhh.... Necromancers aren't just 'evil', they're anti-immortal. There are Immortals that are dark and sinister as hell, but they aren't nodding their heads and giving us a thumbs up for spreading chaos and contagion and zombies, they're horrified and furious that we dare reach for their powers.

It's important, I think, to realize that what we're doing isn't just 'Evil' or 'Bad' or 'twisting your mustachio while you cackle and tie women to caravan tracks', because there are totally Immortals who personify those things. We are pursuing a course that aims to either have as much power as those Immortals, or to remove them from power, and that course is progressed via vile means, and both it's pursuit and it's end point are things the Immortals abhor.

So... A Cleric doing something Necromancer like? It's more like being invited to the Oval Office and taking a dump on the desk while reciting the Communist Manifesto. It has as much to do, mind you, with the antithetical nature of the action in the setting, as it does to the brazen disrespect it shows the man sitting behind the desk.

<<There's a difference in casting a spell one or twice, and really doing necrotic things.>>

Obviously you haven't played a necromancer. Casting Call from beyond twice gets you forsaken. Why should a cleric be any different?

An arisen dummy zombie bellows, "You will all be ssslaughtered!"
>

Oh, Idons Theft?

If losing your devotion is so inconvenient that you wouldn't want to cast a necro spell anyway, then what do you care if the punishment is more severe? And no, a cleric casting a necro spell is NOT like showing up to work late and hung over. It is the worst possible thing a cleric could ever do short of actually making a zombie. So yeah, I think the gods would be really pissed off about it, not like little slap on the wrist pissed off... More like "you're dead to us until you prove your worthiness again" pissed off.

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Markat says, "Pleasant people without moral faults, going to church every week and abstaining from sins such as vanity and zombies. Feh...."

To me there are two things that should be asked, with this discussion.

Which Necromancer spells are going to be on scrolls?

Which Necromancer spells are the ones that are anti-'the Immortals'?

Just so you know the second one was listed somewhere in the past, and should be relatively easy to find. And realistically to me at least, if those two Cross then yes Holy Magic types should be in for a World of Life and Afterlife smackdown for using them, if they don't then we're more or less talking about things that should definitely have plenty of Social Annoyances or even Outrage over.

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"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS

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Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.

I agree that thematically clerics should suffer a little bit so as to make use of Necromancy more painful than useful.

But remember, SO and DO are your guild flaws, and you're a hardcore guild. The other guilds do not play by the same rules and degree of pain for their theme.

I say just make a cleric unable to cast them ("you realize what you are doing and release the spell") plus a small to moderate devotion hit if they actually try to cast it. Keep it around the same pain as a moon mage aligning to thanatology.

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Weapons for Sale:
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>This seems to be a lot to do about nothing.

Seconded. From a Necro standpoint , if you notice a cleric casting arcane , isn't that an opportunity for some , you know , "Interaction"?

I'd rather they not be able to cast our spells at all, and that would make more sense. We explode when we try to use holy magic, so why not just make them explode when they try to use arcane magic.

>Hey, you know those penalties for having high DO and SO? Ya, we are going to flood those, and give you the worst possible results from the time you join the guild. Cause there's no reason for scale right?

It's not the same thing, and you know it. Clerics are not necromancers. Clerics serve the gods. Clerics don't get a grace period, or get to dabble in necromancy for a while before the gods get miffed. There is no equivalent on our side. We actually are necromancers.

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Markat says, "Pleasant people without moral faults, going to church every week and abstaining from sins such as vanity and zombies. Feh...."

Please, continue arguing for Clerical access to Arcane spells.

>>Do Clerics already get a devotion hit when casting DO causing spells in Test?

They have it in Prime too.

>>If yes, this is a really dumb argument.

Yup.

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas

Not to Necro this thread (pun intended [I'm sure that's been used before lol]), but I wanted to weight in on this from a lore standpoint, I'll leave the mechanics up to the GMs and devs.

Necromancers in DR are pretty unique in so far as Science Fiction and Fantasy goes. We aren't your average evil, heck, many of the 13/39 have that covered, and it's perfectly fine to RP a Warmage, barb, etc etc as the most heinous and degenerate person imaginable, and for the most part the Immortals won't really care (I know this has changed a bit in 3.0).

In fact I find a hard time drawing a comparison in other literature. I suppose you could argue we're similar to the worship of the Elder Elemental Eye in D&D (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Tharizdun), or the followers of many of Lovecraft's elder evils.

We're messing with cosmic level evil, alien entities, powers outside of space and time. We're talking tentacles people.. lots and lots of tentacles.


The short answer is it's bad, and if you're fuzzy on the whole good bad thing, then just think total protonic reversal bad (Ghostbusters ftw..).

This goes doubly so for Clerics. Clerics, as I know you all are aware, are the literal servants of the Immortals. There is literally no other interpretation of it than that. No matter how you slice it they have an exclusive contract with the Immortals, and the Immortals have taken a VERY firm stance on Necromancy and everything that entails.

If this was my world, and I know its not, just speaking as a long term DM, I'd strip a cleric of his powers till he redeemed himself, or at the very least make him explode like a Necromancer does when he channels holy.

>>If this was my world, and I know its not, just speaking as a long term DM, I'd strip a cleric of his powers till he redeemed himself

Their devotion tanks. They redeem themselves by getting devotion.

>>or at the very least make him explode like a Necromancer does when he channels holy.

Part of the issue might be from misunderstanding what happens from a "Because Mana Theory says so" point of view versus what happens from a "Because the Immortals say so" point of view and that PCs can't really tell where the line for both is located

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The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).

<<We're messing with cosmic level evil, alien entities, powers outside of space and time. We're talking tentacles people.. lots and lots of tentacles.>>

its very arguable that Moon Mages do something similar, they just have better PR.

<<The real thing DR needs is to get out there to the kids who actually read books.>>

>>Not all of us are "evil", despite what your false gods might say.

Sadly, The Immortals have better PR.

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The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).