>>That aligning I think is where the "The End" thing comes from. Sorcery doesn't trigger that kind of freak out, only Thanatology.

What I was trying to highlight is that no one (other than Necromancers) are literally walking personifications of sorcery. They're attuned to something that just should not be.

So, for all we know, what Moon Mages are interpreting when they look at Necromancers is a physical manifestation of what all sorcery results in, but since sorcery isn't normally people, it's not like they'd get that information when looking at something like Tangled Fate or Blackfire.

It could totally be Thanatology, too, but it's not like there's an obvious answer to what is meant by "The End". Just that it's "The End" and it doesn't seem fun.

That's not me saying "hey, it's not something to be scared of after all!," let alone that people shouldn't be horrified at all. It's just me saying that it's vague enough vision/message to not give a set answer as to why Necromancers turn into a glaring flare about the end of everything, and the only answers provided as to why that might be the case are essentially based on a confirmation bias that Necromancers are evil to begin with.

For example, if a Moon Mage looked at Barbarians and saw "The End," I'm sure that people could reasonably go "well, yeah, of course Barbarians are The End, what with how much Barbarians love fighting and all those dangerous battles and check out how crazy they get when they go berserk!" It doesn't actually answer how Barbarians are "The End," though. It would just be people filling in the blanks with generalized assumptions of who Barbarians are and how those assumptions would lead to that result.

>>I think the issue is degrees. Moon Mages and clerics do horrible things, yet neither of them seems to be associated the End of Everything.

Well, based on whatever crazed visions enter anyone's mind when they try to predict the future about it. Then again, who knows what would happen if a Moon Mage decided to check out the aura of Asketi, or The Hunger, or a Herald, or a dragon, etc...

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"You always have to be a know-it-all. And you don't. Know. It. All." - GERSTEINJ2

It's an interesting argument, however there is one other oddity that is unique to aligning to Thanatology.

You pick up Necromantic taint.

That rather strongly implies that it's the necromancer/thanatology, and not the necromancer/sorcery issue.

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>>It's an interesting argument, however there is one other oddity that is unique to aligning to Thanatology.

I really do hope someone posts about what a Moon Mage sees when doing that kind of alignment.

>>You pick up Necromantic taint.

True! But I do wonder why.

>>That rather strongly implies that it's the necromancer/thanatology, and not the necromancer/sorcery issue.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least, but the sum of what I was trying to highlight is that no one really knows what makes Necromancers "The End" (it could be sorcery, but it could be thanatology, but it could be divine outrage which can be caused by thanatology or other possible things), why that reason means "The End", or what "The End" actually means itself. My understanding of Moon Mage visions is that they're generally intentionally vague and very open to interpretation. To me, it feels like a lot of the interpretation is being quickly summarized based on the preface that "Well, Necromancers are bad so clearly The End means Necromancers do something bad!" And, ICly, that makes total sense, but you know.

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"You always have to be a know-it-all. And you don't. Know. It. All." - GERSTEINJ2

>>I really do hope someone posts about what a Moon Mage sees when doing that kind of alignment.

Pain! A concept erupts from the back of your mind, cold and crushing. For a few, sharp moments you experience The End -- the death of stars and the deconstruction of fate as a metaphysical force.
The death of the universe orbits... something. Some force or some entity. Something you cannot see; that you have an unconscious need not to.
It sees you.

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas

I hope we get something interesting for the Inner Fire skill.

Fate punches you. Hard.

---

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Side Reel - Align Guild Specific Skill Time!

>align astrology
You see yourself seeing yourself seeing yourself seeing yourself...

>align Empathy
You're sad! But happy! But scared! But excited! But afraid! But lonely! But filled with love!

>align trading
Ayn Rand cackles in the distance

>align theurgy
The Gods laugh at your fate

>align Summoning
Fate is totally on fire!

>align Endurance
Did... you feel that? Huh, nevermind.

>>Beyondisbelief +1

Elvis has left the building.

>>interesting. every time my MM has tried to align thanatology he ends up aligning empathy instead. :-(.

Yeah, it got broken awhile back when we fixed a different bug. I've fixed it for prediction 3.0 but it's too enmeshed in other things right now to fix live.

So enjoy your ability to prediction "empathy" while it lasts, because it's going away again as intended.

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

We're drifting further and further away from the folder topic here, despite some hilarious ideas. Let's try and steer closer to Necromancers instead of other guilds.

Again, think evil cupcake.

Helje
DragonRealms Board Monitor

If you have any questions or comments, please contact me at MOD-Helje@play.net, Senior Board Monitor Sidatura at DR-Sidatura@play.net, or Message Board Supervisor Annwyl DR-Annwyl@play.net.

Love it when that happens.

I still just can't except that Necromancers could be considered "Good" by any means. Unless it's the Necro's own twisted view of things. So debate what "evil" is . But the subject is "Good" necromancers. So then , why would anyone want to play a "Good" Necromancer? That's the extent to my spiel .

>>I still just can't except that Necromancers could be considered "Good" by any means.

That's half the fun of it.

I mean, how would someone respond if someone they think is good also ends up being a Necromancer? Or if they're saved by someone who ends up being a Necromancer? Or if they're saved through Necromancy itself! Do all those things result in the person still instantly written off as evil, or does the person have some hesitation over the matter? Are they going to risk the dangers of being associated with that person by not purging the Necromancer, or are they going to try to kill the person who just saved them, or try to find a way to not betray either side?

Fun times!

>>So then , why would anyone want to play a "Good" Necromancer?

I don't think I necessarily play a good one, but for all the reasons above: I just really enjoy the idea of causing that kind of character to character dynamic. The idea of characters being legitimately devastated because they don't know how to deal with the elephant in the room without going against everything they believe in versus an individual they sincerely like is kinda awesome to me.

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"You always have to be a know-it-all. And you don't. Know. It. All." - GERSTEINJ2

>>I can't resist but saying that reminds me of the typical Nice-Guy-Led-on-by-Girl-Who-Said-They're-Just-Friends-but-keep-saying-how-they're-special-making-him-struggle-over-does-that-mean-anything-should-he-get-his-hopes-up-what-should-he-do scenarios.

WHY ARE ALL THE NICE HEROES REALLY JUST NECROMANCERS OUT TO DEVOUR MY SOUL.

STUPID DEATHZONED.

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"You always have to be a know-it-all. And you don't. Know. It. All." - GERSTEINJ2

>I would say that its inconclusive if the Immortals care or not about other cults of Necromancy. Its safer to say that the Immortals, for some unknown reason, don't seem to be doing something about those other Cults. It may be possible that Sidholt and his ilk have demonic or otherworldly protection keeping the Immortals from intervening.

Or that they're getting their collective NPC behinds kicked by the Immortals behind the curtain over the years, setting them back time and again (yet they still slowly progress). How long has Sidhlot been a Necromancer? Centuries? Millenia? That should be time enough to do just about anything that's going to be humanly (or elvenly, heh) possible.

Kaeta Airtag

>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear

>>Or that they're getting their collective NPC behinds kicked by the Immortals behind the curtain over the years, setting them back time and again (yet they still slowly progress). How long has Sidhlot been a Necromancer? Centuries? Millenia? That should be time enough to do just about anything that's going to be humanly (or elvenly, heh) possible.


Wow , + 100 post. I wonder what you think of such a thing as a "Good" necromancer ?

Interesting post Kaeta, however. At 70th circle, I'm still unsullied and my character is wrestling with the pursuit of immortality. Eventually, he'll ease into madness and lose sight of the fact that what he's doing, and how he's doing it... is wrong.

Before you go after BLB, make sure you have a LOT of magic. It's a very difficult spell to cast. I have it, but couldn't cast it when I first got it, and haven't tried since. Vivisection is very nice.

Elvis has left the building.

Yep. Thus the necromancers can think they are doing good when they perform preserve and other shtuff like that, and if all society would believe that gods are wrong, then they would welcome necros with open arms. However society is blinded, necromancers are "not" blinded in their choices, and there can be the "good" necros who can believe that even though it is wrong of the gods, it is their right as immortals. There can be the bad necros who wish to play god. There can be the philosophers who don't raise dead, but don't like the gods either.

>Thus the necromancers can think they are doing good when they perform preserve and other shtuff like that, and if all society would believe that gods are wrong, then they would welcome necros with open arms.

Performing Preserve isn't the equivalent of embalming someone so they look pretty at their funeral. Every ritual we do is a 'neccesary evil' along our path to the Great Work. While the Great Work can have good intentions ("I will bring Immortality to everyone! I will cure all disease! I will eliminate our need to eat! I will grant us all powers the Gods have denied us!"), the road getting there is paved with the lives of the innocent.

That's the point; any given guild may produce bad people, Barbs who murderize, Traders who turn their empires of profit on he backs of orphan coal miners, etc, but ONLY the Necromancer guild REQUIRES it of you. Your intentions may be good as a Necromancer, but make no mistake about it; by training Thanatology, you are practicing your craft by harming the innocent.

Remember this vision?
A crimson design etches across the air in front of you. Its origins are foreign, but a powerful desire accompanies it: it means everything you want, every possibility realized.
"You're forgetting something."
You stand in front of an iron table, scalpel in hand. Lying on the table is a half-naked Elf, unbound yet seemingly paralyzed. She stares up at you with wide, tear-brimmed eyes, while her breaths are accompanied with gasping, plaintive whines. Standing opposite of you is an elderly Human man in homespun clothes.
The Old Man says, "Glory. Immortality. Transcendence. Every promise that has been made is true. It's all hidden inside there," he looks down at the captive Elf, "Waiting for you to dig it out."
He returns a flat, expressionless gaze to you, "The moral dilemma isn't that necromancy demands a terrible price, but that you aren't the one that pays it. Are you worth her life?"

>>Every ritual we do is a 'neccesary evil' along our path to the Great Work.

Keep in mind that although we players acknowledge that kind of stuff as necessary evils, it doesn't mean our characters necessarily see it as evil.

>>That's the point; any given guild may produce bad people ... ONLY the Necromancer guild REQUIRES it of you.

To me, the tricky part of playing a Necromancer is coming to terms with the character-side, where this is correct, and the player-side, where the concepts of good/bad are a bit more ambiguous and open for debate. It's entirely possible to play a "good" Necromancer. The only issue is that kind of view works well as a character profile, but that doesn't mean the game would necessarily care/respond to that character in a positive manner.

DR isn't as hard-ruled as AD&D, where Paladins must be Lawful Good and so on. There's no hard line "Necromancers must be on the evil spectrum" rule in DR. The only issue is that, despite being able to fall anywhere on the good/evil spectrum, that doesn't translate to an expectation that anyone in society would necessarily care.

>>Remember this vision?

I think it was Armifer who pointed it out, but think of that vision, and then think of every player who killed non-animal mobs with a rather blasé attitude. How many moon mages exploded louts on the way to their guild, how many times were madmen killed around Dirge/west of Crossing, etc. The heroes of DR society probably have an incredibly demented view on the world compared to the unheard/unwashed masses in the game.

>>That is what Moon mages see when they perceive a particularly DO-laden necro

Keep in mind that Moon Mage visions are heavily symbolic and, most likely, tainted by their own internal biases.

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I understand the point that what your character KNOWS is different from what is actually going on/you the player knows. So, I can accept the notion that a Necromancer thinks they're doing good deeds, and that hacking up those corpses is saving them, or their brethren later. I was responding to Lady-Mechanic who seemed to be implying (I may have read that wrong) that her Necromancer is a good guy, or at least, that it is possible for a Necromancer to be a good guy.

The moral dilemma of thinking that what you're doing is ultimately for good is what makes this guild so interesting; the Great Work might serve a greater good, and it might even be pursued because your character wants to bring a net 'good' to Elanthia. It just needs to be remembered that what you're doing to get there is distinctly 'not good'. The whole 'ends justify the means' thing.

>>The process of becoming a necromancer fundamentally breaks you.

It would be nice to see this bubble up more often time to time.

Not to have this end up biting me in the butt, but I do feel that there's a notable lack of signs that you're fundamentally broken. My character's dealings with insanity are generally inflicted on her by my own accord.

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