>>IIRC that the mastery reduces either/both RT and the balance that is lost?

No. Improved forms of whirlwind with potential melee pushback/increased damage.

>>heh, to be fair, it's a pretty silly idea.

I mean, that's one opinion. Many tribal peoples consider their warpaint to be empowering or even mystical. It filled a nice niche for barbs, has been around for a very very long time, and hasn't been slated to be removed. Don't simply pass off something broken because you think it is "silly".

>>FWIW, Barbs aren't the only non-finished guild, or guild that still needs work...

There is another guild, aside from Traders (but seriously, who cares about Traders?), that still isn't fully released as a version 3.0 guild? Enlighten me, please. Necros will always need work, as well. There is a lot to do for them, and they are the latecomers to the party. The development people seek with them (Lich form, Risen) are pretty revolutionary mechanics for DR and theyre always going to be a guild "in progress". Hardmode.

>>This may be getting too off topic

Absolutely. The scale of cashgrab dev versus event developments alone seems rather skewed. But, another topic for another forum.

The only guild behind barbs in straight pve damage gen is traders. Even empaths can outperform pve damage generation, considerably. If that is not really a problem that ranks up there near the top with you, it is just a matter of different personal priorities, I guess.

>The only guild behind barbs in straight pve damage gen is traders. Even empaths can outperform pve damage generation, considerably. If that is not really a problem that ranks up there near the top with you, it is just a matter of different personal priorities, I guess.

I disagree with you, but I think arguing the point is sort of moot. Barbs need additional damage output options, period, but I don't think magic or weapon terts are really crushing it end game for having that option. I know, for example, my Necromancer isn't bringing a sword to any fight of merit, and training weapons is just for the TDPs on him.

>There are tons of abilities not on the 'core system'. That is what makes guilds unique and not a generic MU or NMU mess with a different text flavor of the same abilities. Look at Paladins, for example. Glyphing can block TM and aimed weapon targetting and improve perception. Protect is well... amazing. Aside from the obvious uses, protect self removing (5 I think?) applications of CC, web, etc is incredible. I, personally, am absolutely for a little unique guild flavor to ensure we have more differences than skillsets.

There aren't 'tons', there are 'a handful remaining that need to be updated'. A 'little unique guild flavor' is fine. Abilities completely off the core system that break down any semblance of offense checks are not.

> Even empaths can outperform pve damage generation, considerably. If that is not really a problem that ranks up there near the top with you, it is just a matter of different personal priorities, I guess.

Separate post because I'm curious about this for selfish means. How can an empath out pace a barbarian in terms of damage output?

>>Separate post because I'm curious about this for selfish means. How can an empath out pace a barbarian in terms of damage output?

They have two available means of "pets".

>>Separate post because I'm curious about this for selfish means. How can an empath out pace a barbarian in terms of damage output?

Manipulated creatures are not that effective.

Guardian spirit is, when your TM greatly outclasses your opponent, and it's still not as effective as a ranged weapon - let alone a dual-loaded bow in our primary skillset.

>>Guardian spirit is, when your TM greatly outclasses your opponent,

Very untrue. All the way up through wyverns I have had great result with GS, now even moreso that the cost has been scaled down, and cyclic cost in general retuned.

>>and it's still not as effective as a ranged weapon

As a set and forget ability, much like manipulate, it doesn't have to be. You can actively pursue alternative means of damage production while they go to work.

> Very untrue. All the way up through wyverns I have had great result with GS, now even moreso that the cost has been scaled down, and cyclic cost in general retuned.

I don't want to derail this conversation, so can you create a tips and tricks post in the empath forums? If I'm doing it wrong then I'd love someone to point me towards the right direction.

Lots of sidetracks -

>They have two available means of "pets".

Empaths can rock Absolution, and thus cast TM + normal weapons (as a tert, but still) + GS + Manipulate. That's pretty respectable, but again, you're talking about a tert skill as an output (much like Rangers and Paladins with TM, or Necros and Moonies with their weapons). This notion that Empaths are outperforming Barbs is pretty eye roll worthy, and I say that as someone who adores my Empath.

>Why does no one seem to love whirlwind? It's... AoE? And it does lots of damage, with low RT? And it trains to the point where it probably needs to be downtweaked?

Whirlwind is great, fine, and badass. The problem is it's RT, which means you can't ALSO use a weapon while you're whirlwinding, compared to TM AoE, which can be targeted WHILE you keep swinging away, or even worse, Cyclic TM, which can be set, while you target a non-cyclic, AND also use a weapon.

>I don't want to derail this conversation, so can you create a tips and tricks post in the empath forums? If I'm doing it wrong then I'd love someone to point me towards the right direction.

I'll poke you about this, I'm not sure what you're doing, but Empaths are pretty effective in combat.

>> Whirlwind is great, fine, and badass. The problem is it's RT, which means you can't ALSO use a weapon while you're whirlwinding, compared to TM AoE, which can be targeted WHILE you keep swinging away, or even worse, Cyclic TM, which can be set, while you target a non-cyclic, AND also use a weapon.

Good points. I tend to run out of spawn in most hunting areas with WW, but I can see the point.

Hi.

What the heck is going on in here?

Barbarian Folder, anything not specific to the Barbarian Guild does not belong in this discussion.

Constructive feedback about the Barbarian Guild with suggestions to change things to your liking, are always welcome.



Annwyl
Message Board Supervisor

If you've questions or comments, take it to e-mail by writing me at DR-Annwyl@play.net.

So, with the rising number of these conversations being had, could we please hear from Kodius on the matter?

>This is something a lot of people aren't considering. Wards were balanced around mana cost per power production, for us. With those spells being equally as powerful at 1/2 the cost and difficulty, our wards have just become a much cheaper, easier thing to break. I have witnessed as much happen on multiple occasions since 3.2 has released.

^This

>Setting aside Serenity.

^Not this. You can't "set aside Serenity. It is our primary magic resistance ability, that and Swan (not Swam, my bad). All other barb counter magic abilities are deduction in damage only. So, we are set in a place where MU can tank our IF even faster if we have Serenity up, all our debils are on the same timer, but we can buff stuff to 20%...just like everyone else. Woo hoo! The guild is in great shape!

Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!

Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0

>>Now it's a flat 2.5% across the board. No more blowing your mana to take advantage of twice the Regen anymore.

still, if it took 4-5 100 mana spells to break everything down (which can drop all out buffs), and now it takes 4-5 50 mana spells, the mana situation is definitely not twice as bad as it was, overall.

>You most certainly can when you're discussing entire systems and not 1 ability vs. entire systems.

Except again, the complaint was that barbs don't have sufficient anti-magic, and then Serenity and Swan were ignored.

>Well, damage is lacking, comparatively speaking. Even with Strength buffed over 100 I see around 3-4/22 at most whirling with a max weight haralun greatsword at level

With all seriousness, I don't know what you're doing if that's what you're seeing. I routinely see -

Tensing your body and reaching deep within yourself, you feel the fire build until you are almost ablaze with energy. It courses into your arms and legs as you begin to spin until you are a blur of whirling destruction.
Your broadsword lands a hard hit (5/23) to a zombie stomper's right leg!
Your morning star lands a hard hit (5/23) to a zombie stomper's left arm!

Mind you, that was dual wielding, so, that represents pretty solid damage, and was only against a single opponent. Do you roar before whirling? Are you balanced? In a good position? Furthermore, thinking back on the AoE TM that report hits on the same damage model as weapons (or putatively the same), like PYRE, I don't really ever see more than light/hard hits.

Kuniyo knows I love you Badgopher. Maybe you are up for a night of running the realms with me and showing all those non-believers how OP whirlwind is. Heck, I can get 7/23 dual welding on four apes. It's just like what MU can do with AOE spells...oh, it's not? Well color me embarrassed!

Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!

Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0

>Squanto saying stuff...

I have to agree with Squanto. This is a whirl that was from adeptly balanced and in good/better/strong position to my 3 opponents.
381 staves, 581 melee mastery, 50 agility, dragon form up. Is it good for just learning? Yes, but for actual damage, it's pretty weak when you compare it to AoE TM.
And I keep my "heavy" nightstick in my main hand, and the light balanced one in my offhand.

---

>
* Awkwardly, a warklin mauler rears back and slashes its impaler at you. You beat off some of the impaler with a kertig nightstick.
[You're adeptly balanced and in good position.]
>
* As if fumbling muscle flab were natural, a warklin mauler rears back and slashes its impaler at you. You fend off most of the impaler with a kertig nightstick.
[You're adeptly balanced and in better position.]
>
* Awkwardly, an armored warklin snaps its mandibles at you. You repulse some of the mandibles with a kertig nightstick.
[You're adeptly balanced and in strong position.]
> whirl

Attempting to draw your enemies close, you feint back and then spin forward, your nightstick swinging out at everything within reach.

A warklin mauler deftly sidesteps your nightstick.

Your errant nightstick results in nothing more than a soft thud against a warklin mauler's chitinous armor.

Your errant nightstick results in nothing more than a soft thud against an armored warklin's chitinous shell.

Your nightstick lands a light hit to an armored warklin's chest!

Your nightstick lands a light hit to a warklin mauler's left hand!

Your nightstick lands a light hit to a warklin mauler's right arm!

[You're adeptly balanced]
Roundtime: 6 sec.
R>

Protip: put your more amazing weapon in your offhand. Enjoy.

"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade

A blazing flame-like droplet lands a strong (7/23) hit to a hulking Xala'shar magus's right leg!
A blazing flame-like droplet lands a heavy (8/23) strike to a hulking Xala'shar magus's chest!
The Xala'shar magus is lightly stunned!
A blazing flame-like droplet lands a powerful (11/23) strike to a hulking Xala'shar magus's back!
A blazing flame-like droplet lands a massive (12/23) strike to a hulking Xala'shar thrall's abdomen!
The Xala'shar thrall is dealt a vicious stun!
A blazing flame-like droplet lands an earth-shaking (15/23) strike to a hulking Xala'shar thrall's abdomen!
A hulking Xala'shar thrall crumples to the ground with a tearful wail of agony and begins fruitlessly tugging at its blood-stained robes before growing still with a sputtering cry.
A blazing flame-like droplet lands a very heavy (9/23) hit to a hulking Xala'shar thrall's chest!
The Xala'shar thrall is stunned!
A blazing flame-like droplet lands an awesome (13/23) strike to a hulking Xala'shar thrall's abdomen!
One of the blazing flame-like droplets impacts harmlessly with a hulking Xala'shar thrall's scarred arm.
A hulking Xala'shar thrall crumples to the ground with a tearful wail of agony and begins fruitlessly tugging at its blood-stained robes before growing still with a sputtering cry.
A blazing flame-like droplet lands a strong (7/23) hit to a hulking Xala'shar thrall's back!
The Xala'shar thrall is stunned!
A blazing flame-like droplet lands a hard (6/23) hit to a hulking Xala'shar thrall's chest!
A blazing flame-like droplet lands a hard (6/23) hit to a hulking Xala'shar thrall's right arm!



Set it and forget it cyclic with TM slightly low for hunting Xalas. You can see by the stuns they're not debil'd with thunderclap or anything. Cannot stun what is stunned.


How's the 4 mob restricted, unbalancing, roundtime rocking whirl look now? lol. Have plenty of that to paste. All 6-15/23.

<<From what I've see so far It's not a big deal for MU to regen and keep smapping just over min prep spells which Swan doesn't stop but affect Serenity and tank our IF.

So nothing has changed then, since that was just as possible to do before this week's changes as it is now.

Perhaps a solution would be to have Serenity only trigger the IF cost on hits above a certain potency, determined by Serenity's Integrity while still protecting against the nickel and dime casts below that threshold that would otherwise have worn your IF down too quickly. I.e. make spellcasters actually put something into the spells they cast at you if they want to wear actually away your defense.

---

Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators