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JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Barriers (expertise)
08/06/2016 11:03 PM CDT
>A damage booster ("Make my weapon hit harder under X circumstance.") is not the same thing as a second damage channel ("Fire off TM strikes independent of my weapons"). These are two separate beasts and need to be balanced and considered in different ways.
To be clear - a point system that utilized Expertise and granted smoother access to similar perks that already exist for Expertise would be an improvement. An Expertise based set of barbarian only maneuvers would be an improvement. Additional development involving Weapon primary would be an improvement. All of these improvements are understood to be distinct from a secondary damage source, and a secondary damage source (aka "Barb TM") is something that would be a tertiary skillset. I would still very much like to see an improvement to Expertise, and am somewhat indifferent to a release of Barb TM - I know how useless tert offensive skills are in at level hunting.
In case this was lost in translation or miscommunication - the current execution of Expertise needs significant adjusting, and yes, this is independent of 'Barb TM'.
GORTOG
Re: Barriers (expertise)
08/07/2016 07:12 AM CDT
All the GMs here have been extremely forthcoming with responses and (excellent) ideas. It's a strange feeling, especially throughout the decades I've been playing SIMU games. I'm extremely excited right now but, I can't help having a suspicion that they (the GMs) will ultimately end this conversation with 'well, we'll see guys!', so guys I think we should quietly reserve our celebratory stance until something more concrete develops.
On the other hand, special kudos to GM Raesh,GM Armifer, and GM Kodius for at least showing their names here and at least thinking about the problem. Working in the customer service field I know even basic acknowledgement of your guests is HUGE.
RCHIGHT
Re: Barriers (expertise)
08/07/2016 10:32 AM CDT
>To echo what Armifer is saying since I think I might be the catalyst for the misunderstanding here...
Actually, to your credit, I don't think there is any misunderstanding at all. What I believe you GMs saw happening on these threads was a complete disregard or "I don't care one way or the other" concerning Barb TM. For Barb primary character players we just don't care about using magic to have a secondary damage stream. When the topic of putting umph into Expertise-based skills, instead of fleshing out Barb TM, came up you'll notice the posts started coming in like water.
I personally don't even have any suggestions for Barb TM unless you give us Roar Trothfang back and make it use voice + debilitation. I could live with exploding peoples heads one room away again.
Thank all you GMs for your input here. I think I can speak for all of us and say we truly appreciate it.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
Actually, to your credit, I don't think there is any misunderstanding at all. What I believe you GMs saw happening on these threads was a complete disregard or "I don't care one way or the other" concerning Barb TM. For Barb primary character players we just don't care about using magic to have a secondary damage stream. When the topic of putting umph into Expertise-based skills, instead of fleshing out Barb TM, came up you'll notice the posts started coming in like water.
I personally don't even have any suggestions for Barb TM unless you give us Roar Trothfang back and make it use voice + debilitation. I could live with exploding peoples heads one room away again.
Thank all you GMs for your input here. I think I can speak for all of us and say we truly appreciate it.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
APATHETICSMILE
Re: Barriers (expertise)
08/08/2016 10:13 AM CDT
>>I've seen no documentation in game or out of game to indicate that scouting is in any way related to sniping
From: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Snipe
"Snipe uses Stealth, the appropriate weapon skill, and the guild-only skill (Backstab, Scouting, or Thanatology) as a modifier vs. the target's Perception and defenses."
From: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Snipe
"Snipe uses Stealth, the appropriate weapon skill, and the guild-only skill (Backstab, Scouting, or Thanatology) as a modifier vs. the target's Perception and defenses."
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Barriers (expertise)
08/08/2016 10:22 AM CDT
>>I've seen no documentation in game or out of game to indicate that scouting is in any way related to sniping, nor that sniping is any way a further bonus to attacks than is already provided by poaching. Its benefit is in retaining hiding.
While you're correct that scouting (like thanatology and backstab) provide a bonus to stealth, it's worth noting that passing the perception check gives you an accuracy bonus, which could also be considered a damage bonus since a direct hit hurts more than one that isn't direct.
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Snipe#Snipe_Mechanics
That said, I don't think that's a valid argument for giving Barbarians a secondary damage channel through their primary skillset. Their secondary channel should be TM just like it is for all other guilds in the game that have secondary channels. As GMs already mentioned in the thread, it's probably more an argument for Expertise augmenting their primary channel damage somehow, like an accuracy bonus to maneuvers or something else.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
While you're correct that scouting (like thanatology and backstab) provide a bonus to stealth, it's worth noting that passing the perception check gives you an accuracy bonus, which could also be considered a damage bonus since a direct hit hurts more than one that isn't direct.
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Snipe#Snipe_Mechanics
That said, I don't think that's a valid argument for giving Barbarians a secondary damage channel through their primary skillset. Their secondary channel should be TM just like it is for all other guilds in the game that have secondary channels. As GMs already mentioned in the thread, it's probably more an argument for Expertise augmenting their primary channel damage somehow, like an accuracy bonus to maneuvers or something else.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Barriers (expertise)
08/08/2016 10:45 AM CDT
>>I've seen no documentation in game or out of game to indicate that scouting is in any way related to sniping
Who wrote this?
SEPED
Re: Barriers (expertise)
08/08/2016 11:01 AM CDT
I did, but as was pointed out it's totally on the snipe page. I'd still like to see a good comparison of poaches accuracy bonus versus snipe. However with accuracy being the least useful part of the damage equation for most players and the additional round time for hiding and loading while hidden I still wouldn't call this a case of a guild skill increasing your damage since it's probably lowering your dps versus just dual loading in the open.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Barriers (expertise)
08/08/2016 11:16 AM CDT
You can load then hide, but adding a few seconds isn't really that big of an issue. I think the arguments for it increasing damage are pretty strong, but if you're not convinced, shrug. Especially considering of the three guilds that have access to Snipe, only Rangers have access to Dual Load.
GABRIELA
Re: Barriers (expertise)
08/08/2016 11:34 AM CDT
Did we see a final proposal from the GMs on the Barb Expertise TM? Not sure if I caught it since this thread is mega long exhausting.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Barriers (expertise)
08/08/2016 12:00 PM CDT
>>Did we see a final proposal from the GMs on the Barb Expertise TM? Not sure if I caught it since this thread is mega long exhausting.
GMs pointed out two things:
1) If Barbarians got a secondary damage channel, it would be based on TM, not Expertise. This is the same as it is for Paladins, Rangers, and everyone else with a secondary damage channel. Developing that would take a notable amount of time for various reasons.
2) If Barbarians' primary skillset, weapons, seems to be lackluster, which includes how Expertise itself is being executed and managed, that's another matter entirely that should be discussed, and may possibly require less time/effort/etc to adjust.
There's no final proposal as much as "these things should be investigated". From the sound of things it would be beneficial if people highlighted how Expertise could be applied differently to make the skill more fulfilling/useful.
Based on what the GMs have said so far, "I want to do a secondary damage channel attack where I am shooting inner fire with my sword and make it based on my weapon skill" isn't the feedback they're looking for (mainly because it's not going to happen), while "Barbarian analyzes are too short and require too much work to activate also" or "the cooldown for weapon-related-thing-X is too long for anyone to really use it in an effective manner that reflects being weapon primary" is the kind of stuff they want to hear.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
GMs pointed out two things:
1) If Barbarians got a secondary damage channel, it would be based on TM, not Expertise. This is the same as it is for Paladins, Rangers, and everyone else with a secondary damage channel. Developing that would take a notable amount of time for various reasons.
2) If Barbarians' primary skillset, weapons, seems to be lackluster, which includes how Expertise itself is being executed and managed, that's another matter entirely that should be discussed, and may possibly require less time/effort/etc to adjust.
There's no final proposal as much as "these things should be investigated". From the sound of things it would be beneficial if people highlighted how Expertise could be applied differently to make the skill more fulfilling/useful.
Based on what the GMs have said so far, "I want to do a secondary damage channel attack where I am shooting inner fire with my sword and make it based on my weapon skill" isn't the feedback they're looking for (mainly because it's not going to happen), while "Barbarian analyzes are too short and require too much work to activate also" or "the cooldown for weapon-related-thing-X is too long for anyone to really use it in an effective manner that reflects being weapon primary" is the kind of stuff they want to hear.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
DR-RAESH
Re: Barriers (expertise)
08/08/2016 12:01 PM CDT
>>Did we see a final proposal from the GMs on the Barb Expertise TM?
No. Those are explicitly different proposals (Barbarian expertise improvements and Barbarian TM).
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
No. Those are explicitly different proposals (Barbarian expertise improvements and Barbarian TM).
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
IPECAC
Re: Barriers (expertise)
08/08/2016 08:44 PM CDT
Geez Barbs sure do complain a lot.
>befriend clear all
You are now friendless.
>befriend clear all
You are now friendless.
RAISER
Re: Barriers (expertise)
08/08/2016 09:15 PM CDT
>Geez Barbs sure do complain a lot.
Yes, yes we do, but with good reason! Any other guild that has the same ranks as us in weapons does the EXACT same damage as we can do, what sets us apart from the fold? 500 ranks in weapons from a Trader does the same damage as 500 ranks from a weapon as from a Barb as does from a Ranger etc. So our abilities are instant on, ok, but they take a minute to ramp up so they're not really instant on are they? Our abilities can't be refreshed which means we're guaranteed to have to drop a buff completely to put it back up. Barbs do have a bit to complain about with good reason. Magic Primes have great bonuses (I main a cleric since barbs took a dive with 3.0, cleric is 150+), survival primes have great bonuses (necro secondary at 150+)... what do weapon primes get other than dual wielding large blunt/edged (which we all know how great dual wield/ww is)? That's our complaint.
The beers have taken their toll, it is sleep time, good night!
