I would not mind seeing a buff to panther, and or the IF needed to use it taken down a bit.

WB Heitak.

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"If swords ever cross, the Barbarian shall be the one left standing." - Guild Leader Agonar

Eh, as I was telling someone the other day... you can get Panther if you shoot for it within 20 circles. That really isn't much more than a few weeks of effort. Panther provides a capped stealth buff (buffs no longer have "strengths"), so there isn't anything else I can toss into it. Barbarians cannot get an inviso ability.

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

<< Panther provides a capped stealth buff (buffs no longer have "strengths"), >>

Oh well then, what is, is is. or something like that. Thanks for clearing it up Kodius, I guess skill set placements really do and should manner in the end.

>>Panther provides a capped stealth buff (buffs no longer have "strengths"), so there isn't anything else I can toss into it. Barbarians cannot get an inviso ability.

Out of curiosity, why not?

Samsaren

>Maybe I'm missing it, but I don't think Barbarians have a discipline buff. That would help with stealth.

I think that is a great idea to incorporate into Panther for an easier time using Stealth at level hunting.

I'm not sure why we penalize players for using disablers, so maybe fixing that will remedy the problem better than giving you more buffs.

Barbarians are at the global cap for stealth buffs. I could give you another, but the Core system would just reject the second one.

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

I agree that a discipline buff would be perfect for panther, for barbarians discipline is super important so it makes sense. I also agree with making it so using disabling abilities on mobs does not hurt our training, both of these are great ideas. It takes discipline and focus to use stealth to gain position on prey, I say go for it.

>>Danny Glover was in Predator 2 and also Lethal Weapon 4 who had Stephen Blackehart. Blackehart was in Super with Kevin Bacon. Kevin Bacon was Hollow Man, who could go invisible, so could The Predator. So, Barbarians should have an Invisibility.

With such sound reasoning, how can we deny the guild invisibility? Also, Patrick Swayze, who was rather barbaric, was a ghost in the movie Ghost, thus allowing him to go undetected. Further evidence that things must change.

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"If swords ever cross, the Barbarian shall be the one left standing." - Guild Leader Agonar

>>Also, you should need a blessed weapon to hit barbarians.

I seriously choked and almost spit my coffee all over the screen when I read this. Again, very sound logic.

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"If swords ever cross, the Barbarian shall be the one left standing." - Guild Leader Agonar

>>I'm not sure the case can be made for Barbarian invisibility. Your Supernatural powers are internal in nature, and a result of extremely training and mental discipline (or lack thereof).

Crap. Are thieves losing inviso too then?

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"If swords ever cross, the Barbarian shall be the one left standing." - Guild Leader Agonar

I posted about this a while back, the fact our buffs are all tied to huge IF draining abilities is a problem, yes we have a nice amount of stat buffs, but unlike other guilds we can't possibly use them together, maybe 2 at the same time at best. I think I had argued before that panther should also gain the agility buff, even if it would overlap our other ability that buffs agility it means I could choose one or the other and that's ok for me, at least that way I'm not forced to use a berserk I may not wish to use to gain that buff and I have some options.

>>The policy for invisibility, which hasn't changed in quite some time, is that it's a survival primary perk + Moon Mages. (Moon Mages get to keep it since they have a long history with it and they're the most survival/stealth oriented of the magic primes.)


A lot has changed. Hell, combat paradigms have completely shifted for all guilds. Perhaps it would be worth revisiting, considering barbarians now have a path focused on being survival/stealth oriented. Also, the survival primaries, moon mages and barbarians all share stealth in their sphere of influence. I am really having a difficult time grasping why barbarians would be excluded from invisibility. We've already settled it's not some magical thing, since thieves have no magic whatsoever. And it's not a survival primary thing, since moon mages have it. Two precedents have been set to not be so rigid and allow some flexibility.

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"If swords ever cross, the Barbarian shall be the one left standing." - Guild Leader Agonar

>>I am really having a difficult time grasping why barbarians would be excluded from invisibility.

The same reason why Clerics, Traders, Empaths, Bards, Paladins, and War Mages are: it's just not their thing. It's the same reason why Moon Mages don't have a cyclic AoE, why Thieves won't have warding abilities, etc.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

>> Why?

Because simu said so?

>>it's just not their thing.

Ask yourself how not having magical aptitude can be a justification for not getting it when Thieves also have zero magical aptitude. You could also ask yourself why they can still buff every weapon at once in 3.1, even though they are weapon secondary and that by no means makes them 'weapon masters'. I'm all for expounding on the implications of erroneous and short-sided logic, but honestly - there's too much 'is and ain't' going on in this thread. Let's cut down on the lawyering, this doesn't need to become a contest of who can find the most contradictions in the 'established lore'. Besides that, lore isn't the end-all of "can-and-can't", as we've clearly seen in the 3.0 "re-imagining".

IMO, there's no real reason to keep inviso as an exclusive, since the terms of it's application and potency are negotiable. This applies generally to all guilds, and I say this generally for all guilds.
If you want to break it down, though - it's not like inviso has anything to do with stealth skill anyways, in the same regard as that having a lot of money does not make you an affluent businessman. But, if we're going to tie the two together anyways - survival seem to be the only skill-set lacking in the proposed 'general feat' department. Why not plug it there?

Food for thought.

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IM: Dannyboy00001111

"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."

>> Because it's not about magical aptitude, it's about being survival primary. The only exception to the rule is Moon Mages, who are viewed as the survival-centric magic primary guild.

Right, but I just brought up how Thieves can buff every weapon yet are not weapon primary. Something of a contradiction going on here.

>> Barbarians are not survival primary. There's nothing in the lore of the guild that implies that they are big on remaining hidden.

Predator path.

>> I mean, if we're trying to cut through the "rule lawyering", I'd rather people just outright say their intentions: invisibility is seen as an advantage in PvP, so people without invisibility want invisibility. It's a power grab.

Blinking inviso is a huge advantage in PvP. Basic inviso is not such a huge advantage. Difference. I'm not going to try to read into what everyone else here has said(what you appear to be doing), but to claim that it's a power grab when I've just stated that basic inviso should be feat-related and available to everyone(since survivals are almost totally missing from the general feat system) is another contradiction.

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IM: Dannyboy00001111

"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."

>>Right, but I just brought up how Thieves can buff every weapon yet are not weapon primary. Something of a contradiction going on here.

That's not a contradiction at all. You're allowed to have a survival buffs. You're not allowed to have invisibility, which is a very specific type of stealth buff.

It's sorta like how you can shoot a bow, but you can't snipe. Or how Thieves can use weapons, but they can't whirlwind.

It's also worth acknowledging that Barbarians get a capped bonus to more weapon types than Thieves. And that doesn't take into account what can be unlocked through the expertise skill.

>>Blinking inviso is a huge advantage in PvP. Basic inviso is not such a huge advantage. Difference.

Other than blend, which has massive restrictions, does any guild-provided invisibility not refresh? As far as I know, RF refreshes, Steps of Vuan refreshes, Eyes of the Blind refreshes, and I thought Silence refreshes. I don't think there are any guild-invisibility options out there other than those.

>>If PvP is broken without invisibility, the solution is not to make all guilds have invisibility.

Exactly.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

>> That's not a contradiction at all. You're allowed to have a survival buffs. You're not allowed to have invisibility, which is a very specific type of stealth buff.

My 3 inviso cloaks say otherwise. 15+ years of game history say otherwise. You're arguing this like there's no way it would ever change when it has in fact changed several times, Sir argues-alot.

>> It's also worth acknowledging that Barbarians get a capped bonus to more weapon types than Thieves. And that doesn't take into account what can be unlocked through the expertise skill.

So give me a buff for all of my magic skills, then. Oh, except for Utility since I don't use it.

>> It's sorta like how you can shoot a bow, but you can't snipe. Or how Thieves can use weapons, but they can't whirlwind.

You're comparing grapes to grapefruit. Stop, please.

>> Other than blend, which has massive restrictions, does any guild-provided invisibility not refresh? As far as I know, RF refreshes, Steps of Vuan refreshes, Eyes of the Blind refreshes, and I thought Silence refreshes. I don't think there are any guild-invisibility options out there other than those.

How many times per minute do you blink? I can tell that you're talking from experience here when you bring up how all forms of refreshing inviso are identical in function. Otherwise, no idea what this is supposed to mean. Grass is green?

>>If PvP is broken without invisibility, the solution is not to make all guilds have invisibility.
>> Exactly.

It's ironic that the straw-man you 'nailed down' here was the straw-man you yourself conceived. I guess when you've 'rolled with the best' though, experience speaks for itself.

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IM: Dannyboy00001111

"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."

OHHHHHHHHHH SO INVISO REFRESHES? EXCEPT BLEND?? fix blend. WE ONLY READ WHAT WE CHOOSE TO READ.

~Nefidyne

>
Kssarh gestures at you.
Two Ranger journeymen materialize out of the surrounding trees and begin to whisper to Kssarh as they escort him out of the area.