I think a great meditation would be the ability to narrow the effects of your BMR to only spells cast directly AT you for a short time (ie 5 minutes).

Barbarians really make group combat bloody difficult. You could still disrupt all spells if you wished, but by giving barbarians a little more control over how it interacts with the area I think a lot of the problems would be solved.


>>meditate calm
You calm your inner fire and await the opportune time to stoke them.

I don't see many other options. There is a good case for wanting barbs to be able to disrupt AE effects. Sometimes a strategy is plunking 4 barbs down in a place with some big spellcasting monster. When just hanging out at the gate, or trying to help people in mundane invasions, a little meditation could go a long way to resolving headaches. Just some thoughts :)

---

http://www.drplat.com - The DragonRealms Platinum Community Website. Be sure to vote DragonRealms as your #1 MUD!

I hate not being able to hunt with my barbarian friends because of BMR. Okay, so I'm only honary fishy face barbarian but I had to speak up. I wence everytime I see one of you guys scowl even though I know it's not really doing a lot of damage, unless you need to do one of your dances, I've heard. The worse part is logically I can't think of a loop hole for enchantes and barbarians. Before the changes I know I calmed some higher up barbarian with my song and yet I wasn't even 30th circle yet. After the change, boom, immediate backfire and there go my nerves. Navak and I have hunted together some and I couldn't use a lot of my enchantes. We were pretty close in weapons skills at the time, I seriously doubt it now but were at one time. There is no such thing as roar/dance resistance and trust me, I hate being on the receiving end of a lot of those roars! I'll be following the responses to this one. It interests me as well. I'd love to be able to hunt again with barbarian friends. I use many of your guilds requirements to train my own fighting/hunting skills just to try and keep up with you all! But I'm a strange Olvi. <grin>

Fishy face the barD(arian)
~Eoworfinia~
A snow goblin reaches down and gently pets your corpse, then quickly looks about to make sure no one noticed.

There are roar resistances by the way.
Dances aren't resisted because they boost the barbarian and not other players.


Gamemaster Iayn
Barbarian Liaison

For invasion purposes when the bard is not in my group I think the second and third above would work better. My other choice would be to give us a BMR switch. BMR on or BMR off. I don't know if many of use would choose to turn it off, but those who hunt in groups among non-magic using critters might.

mfberg

From what I've seen the worst moments are....

I am running through crossings with my barb in Plat, and just as I pass through the NE gate I get a nice IF hit from the multitude of bards that could be there singing away their beneficial enchantes.

Several of my friends are at the gate, with a bard. I am asked to leave so the bard can continue training - or I choose to drain because really, IF loss can suck.

In an invasion when our bards are being an amazing asset to the group, then I show up - and everyone would honestly rather kill me and let the bards do their thing than have me alive and ruining it for them.

In quests when you HAVE to work as a group, and you either want a bard, or barb, not never ever both. I'd say several people in Plat have actually quit playing their barbs (they rolled up group-friendly Paladins) just because of how annoying they are to have around.



I'd much rather see BMR reduce/nullify the beneficial enchantes for only the barb grouped or ungrouped, with only a small IF hit if ungrouped.
* this reduces IF hits by passing through a room with a beneficial enchante being played.
* this prevents unpreventable IF loss by grouping with a bard.
* this allows barbs to group with enchante using bards without ticking off everyone, but it isn't overpowering because the enchante isn't actually affecting them.

I'd much rather see BMR reduce/nullify the aggressive enchantes a lot if ungrouped.

I'd much rather see BMR reduce/nullify the aggressive enchantes a tiny amount if grouped.

Just my thoughts :P

---

http://www.drplat.com - The DragonRealms Platinum Community Website. Be sure to vote DragonRealms as your #1 MUD!

I like many of those ideas, Navak.

It's annoying to be teaching a class, for example, and start Faenella's Grace only to have it either give inner fire hits to smaller barbs in the area, or outright fail for EVERYONE because there's a big barb present. Or to be trying to help out in a triage area and be unable to start Lilt for the same reason. Or trying to keep a meeting safe from prying eyes and be unable to start Sanctuary.

It's annoying to hunt with a barb and hit their fire every time we move a room because critters don't gen where we are and we have to hunt them down. Especially when grouped, I don't think that enchantes should give hits or fail just because they're an all or nothing thing.

My biggest gripe, though, is the 'all or nothing' effect of MR/BMR on enchantes. I don't like that one person can stop me from affecting everyone/everything in the room because they cause the enchante to just... fail. I'd much rather see it fail against just the people who managed to resist it rather than not be able to even start the enchante because a barb happened to be standing there.

~Azimee

~~~
If you find yourself confronted by a group of armed guards, be warned that they will attack you in mass. No matter what you have been told by other sources, rest assured that they will not line up to attack you one by one. ~Handbook of Practical Heroics

Thanks, keep them coming.
Don't be overly concerned about technical or coding issues, that's for us.

Am I correct that you feel that bardic enchantes are less incompatible with barbarian philosophy than warmage or moonie magic?

Gamemaster Iayn
Barbarian Liaison

>>I am running through crossings with my barb in Plat, and just as I pass through the NE gate I get a nice IF hit from the multitude of bards that could be there singing away their beneficial enchantes.

That shouldn't happen anymore I don't think.

If the enchante is already started, there are no further MR checks (or there aren't supposed to be any more) until the enchante is started again or the bard moves a room (not 100% sure on changes between parts of the enchante).

The MR check doesn't occur immediately upon moving rooms, there is a slight delay to avoid the hit from a bard "just walking through" or a barb just walking through.

These were both added by the Bard Team a while back but I believe that is how they were changed and should be working.

I am --- Navak

>Am I correct that you feel that bardic enchantes are less incompatible with barbarian philosophy than warmage or moonie magic?

I feel that an enchante is music first. Music is often said to put a weave a spell of magic or put someone in a trance. Music can sooth the savage beast even. In some ways, I could see how barbarians might find musical magic even more evil than other magics, though that's not what I want. Instead I would hope the barbarian could see music as nature's magic, not a man made magic or socery type magic. Help us all if a socercer could ever use song with their magic! Just my thoughts.


~Eoworfinia~
A snow goblin reaches down and gently pets your corpse, then quickly looks about to make sure no one noticed.

"Am I correct that you feel that bardic enchantes are less incompatible with barbarian philosophy than warmage or moonie magic?"

I know I always felt this way back when I played a Barbarian and still do. I always pictured it like the movies with the pipers or drummers playing as the army marches into battle.

Oh and thanks for asking for our opinions.

Kleis

I like the idea of TM allowing spells to miss the barbarians in the group. The higher the spell level/power the more TM is needed to miss the barbarians. If it hits the barb then BMR comes into play and the spell either fizzles or affects the barbarian, perhaps at a reduced level.

mfberg

I liked the TM idea as well, but the fact that bards don't have any abilities they can use to train TM sort of makes it unreasonable. Aside from classes, runes and scrolls, we can't really train TM, so we'd end up pretty much where we started off if we used the TM idea.

-=Issus=-

> 1. Bug Dart for a TM spell. He knows you need one, but nagging helps <g>.


Currently TM spells are restricted to magic primary only, at least in terms of spells designed for those guilds. We've discussed changing that, but it opens one major can of worms in terms of backtraining, shifting magic reqs, grandfathering, and all sorts of other headaches. Giving non-primary guilds TM spells of their own isn't likely to happen anytime soon, if ever.


- GM Dartenian

"You ain't seen nothin' yet!" - Al Jolson

LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/dartenian/

I say use our PM in place of TM, and use our musical skills in the form of PM in regards to the single-person-targetted idea.

Problem solved!

Ohh, and I like Navak's idea(s), in addition to the idea of making enchantes primarily musical, but with magic as an aside/bonus.

Have everyone on the same page in terms of resistance(since it won't be Magic Resistance), and simply have the enchante be resisted on a person by person basis--no more enchante collapsing. After all, honestly, how can music fail, other than having the instrument wrenched out of your hand?


The one who is obsessed with power.. and who still has a long way to go.

I haven't read any of the replies yet, but what happened to me was that a bard started doing resolve at the Theren gate when we had the marauders and slavers invade. Both times, I was knocked to my knees instantly for a 16 RT time as if I didn't have any resistance at all, and there were only a few people in her group so she very easily overcame not only everyone not in her group but all the invading creatures as well. The first time wasn't a huge deal, but the second time got me killed almost immediately. The marauders and slavers all recovered faster than I did. No, I don't know any of her stats.

Drex
---
Gyfford says, "Maulem your wife is giving me a headache."
Maulem says, "Well, at least I'm not th' only one she does that to then."
[Lystid] "do you know the two most important words a married man knows?"
[Maulem] "Itwasn'tme, IsweartoKuniyo?"

I said TM model meaning the spell pattern cannot be resisted only the targetting matrix...not literally use TM.

So the normal range for TM spells doesn't include an MR failure except in the case of a hybrid spell (like divine radiance).

Miss
Hit -> Shield
Hit -> Armor
Hit -> Damaged

Enchantes would then be

Unaffected (MR/stats/whatever) ===this is our miss===
Makes it to skill/stat contest but wins skill/stat contest ===blocking and armor===
Makes it to skill/stat contest and loses skill/stat contest ===damaging===

I seem to recall, not sure if it was bard only, but a performer with good skills could make other people cry with just their musical skills under the old play system.

I am --- Navak

I never agreed with the "enchantes are mostly music" stance. Is a Fireball "mostly" the sigil a Warrior Mage traces in the air, or is a Mental Blast "mostly" the raising of the arms and chanting when a Moon Mage prepares? I know there's a difference: the music component a Bard uses does have a skill and often tool requirement that your standard mage preparing a spell does not have, but the singing and playing is analagous to a combination prepare/gesture from another magic-user. So yes, a portion of enchantes are definitely music, but not mostly. At best, half.

Does this mean that enchantes should be able to bypass the restrictions of normal spells? By the current rules and laws of magic, I don't believe so. Sure, you can't "resist" music... but it's not the music that's causing the effect. The music is shaping the mana streams into the spellform needed to create the effect; your skill in music aids your magical skills in doing so. It's still mana forming a spell, and that's what is being resisted.

The current "check once per area" method of resisting enchantes is beneficial on its face, to both sides, and works well - assuming the Bard isn't moving around much or restarting the songs often - and the individual Inner Fire hits for fully-overwhelming BMR are really quite miniscule. There are ways it may work better, but then isn't that true for everything?

Okay, thoughts... probably more suited to a magic board than Barbarians, but the thread is here so nyah. Currently the Magic Primes are allocated as "masters" of some major aspect of magic: Targeted Magic, MetaMagic (Harness Ability), and Power Perception/Teleportation respectively. So extend somewhat lesser masteries to the Secondaries. For Bards, that'd be Area magic. For Empaths... I don't know what. Perhaps something affecting self-cast spells, since most of theirs are. Anyway, as a reflection of area-mastery, Bardic magic could be treated as direct-cast and area-cast at the same time. That is to say, an enchante is sung in an area. Resistance is checked, but rather than doing one mass resistance check like every other area-effect spell, have each individual that can resist attempt to do so, as if a spell were cast directly at them. If they resist it, they will receive the lessened effect - or no effect, if completely resisted - for as long as they are in that song's sphere of influence (re-check if they leave/return, or a new song is started). Flip side of this coin may be that enchantes could be easier to resist, just like any other direct-cast spell compared to area-effect spells.

End result of this model would be that enchantes would not be forced to crash completely quite so often; if a large Barbarian or several are around they would just be not affected by the magic. The enchantes would at least still be able to be performed. Is it perfect? Not really. I think some enchantes should work very well with a Barbarian's Inner Fire, particularly Rage of the Clans. But I can't see any way to make an enchante, which is magic however you look at it, react differently to a Barbarian's natural resistance to all things magic without just being a contrived attempt to subvert the rules set down for the new magic system. Since the system was changed to try to make magic act in a more consistant manner, I don't think we should try to find ways to break the rules there.

Killing you softly with his song,
- Stormsinger Shavay

---

The Guide is definitive. Reality is frequently inaccurate.

While I agree that there are some magical aspects of enchantes, I would like to post my testimony of theory of difference between enchantes and spells. I do think there are similarities between the gestures and spell formulation and patterns of spells and the magical words of enchantes; however, I do think that enchantes are and should be held seperately. Why do I think this? A few reasons.

In direct spell manipulation, there is just that--manipulation. Forming patterns and molding a spell to your will, you are in a sense building a house--a magical house. This is what Barbarians resist. They negate the formation, or building, of spell patterns and matrices(however you spell matrix in the plural form).

Enchantes, on the other hand... the Bard doesn't build the enchante. The enchante is already written in the words of the song. The Bard is not doing anything in hopes of affecting any one in particular--the Bard is merely performing a song, and whoever happens to hear it happens to hear it. Now, this applies to songs like Abandoned Hearts and Hodierna's Lilt. Enchantes such as Desert's Maelstrom act a bit differently, in the fact that they are directly causing stimulus to the area itself, not so much the listener by audio. These kinds of song flow more closely to that of spell formations in the area.

While Magic Resistance may account for resisting the area effect of a song, I hardly consider it even feasible that they would directly go against the Bard him/herself. That's like saying if someone opens a box of poisonus gas, if I resist inhaling the gas the box explodes.


The one who is obsessed with power.. and who still has a long way to go.

How bout just add ear plugs to Vishlans shop and give up the ability to hear talking and whispers when ya have em in.



A statistician is a person who draws a mathematically precise line from an unwarranted assumption to a foregone conclusion.

>>without just being a contrived attempt to subvert the rules set down for the new magic system.


Two quick comments on this point:

First, what looks good on paper doesn't always work so well in practice. Magic theory in particular has demonstrated this. I'll be blunt -- some things about magic theory just plain only work in theory. I'm not talking about enchantes or MR or any specific thing here, but just the system overall. No, we don't want to completely redo magic theory yet again. Not even remotely close to that. But now that the new system is out and has been played with and tested, we DO need to take a serious look at what worked, what didn't work, and what kinda works but could use some tweaking. That's more or less what we are doing now.

More importantly, what the existing magic theory says about enchantes, magic resistance, and other things isn't always necessarily what's been made a reality. In some (most, I hope) cases, what we are actually talking about it making the system work more like it what magic theory says it should be working like in the first place. For example, Magic Theory explicitely stats that the music itself forms the spell patterns in enchantes, music being, in essence, precise mathematical patterns. How exactly are those patterns being disrupted by magic resistance if they are sound-based patterns, rather than magical? We can argue that the flow of mana through those patterns is being reduced, hindered, or disrupted, and that is certainly a very validarguement, but that's not how magic theory describes magic resistance working. Magic resistance hinders the formation of the patterns themselves, so where does that leave MR vs enchantes if the music is forming the patterns? These are some questions we need to re-examine. There are also parts of the system that were put off to be finished later, and were never finished, particularly in both MR and enchantes. Just dealing with these may address some (although not all) of the problems.

(disclaimer: the discussion of enchantes in magic theory is overall fairly vague, and in some ways a bit self-contradictory. What I described above is a crude summary. A good lawyer could probably read the same passage and come up with 7 or 8 alternative theories and justify them)

I think the bottom line is that while the last thing I want to do is rewrite the entire magic theory and system again, we do need to concede that there are probles and issues that do need resolving for the sake of playability, game balance, and, quite frankly, fun. In some cases, that may mean we have to take a second look at the theory behind it and say, "Hrm, that sounds great, but it ain't working so well." Does that mean we are going to change theory? Maybe. It's too early to tell. I'd rather not (more work for me, and quite frankly I'd really rather be doing other things), but at the same time we need to accept that a few things aren't working so great and need to be addressed.


- GM Dartenian

"You ain't seen nothin' yet!" - Al Jolson

LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/dartenian/