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>> No, we don't want to completely redo magic theory yet again. Not even remotely close to that.
Why?
-Teeklin
"You take people, you put them on a journey, you give them peril, you find out who they really are. If there's any kind of fiction better than that, I don't know what it is." -Joss Whedon
NKRISS
DR-DARTENIAN
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/25/2006 12:28 PM CDT
> Why?
Mostly because I'd really like to start moving forward again, instead of constantly going in circles rewriting rewrites!
- GM Dartenian
"You ain't seen nothin' yet!" - Al Jolson
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/dartenian/
Mostly because I'd really like to start moving forward again, instead of constantly going in circles rewriting rewrites!
- GM Dartenian
"You ain't seen nothin' yet!" - Al Jolson
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/dartenian/
KUMI
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/25/2006 01:27 PM CDT
Ok, once more I will preface my musings by stating this is again just one barb's opinion and it is based upon my conception of what BMR should be. It's going to be slightly off topic in snippets only for the sake of explaining consistancy.
First of all, in general, no matter what happens to BMR, bards, clerics, or empaths, I do not think there should be ANY resistance to dead targets. Not saying this out of convenience so that I can get a raise, but since that resistance is linked directly to inner fire, it stands to reason that a corpse has no inner energy.
I am also of the belief that resistance to magic is an inner focus. I know that room resistance mechanics throws this out the window, but philosophically speaking, I do not think that any magic not directed AT a barb should fall victim to BMR. This opens up a huge discussion about other types of area spells, but I'll limit it to what is salient to this topic.
I also agree that one could very reasonably interpret a bard enchante as drawing its true power from the sounds, even though the energy of those sounds derives from mana streams. It's manipulation of an external device not directed AT a barb per se, and again I believe resistance should be a manifestation of internal strength, not some kind of pervading force. Contrary to something targeted, which is more interpreted as a magical force guided TOWARDS a barb (even in the case of tkt, one could make a case that magic directs the projectile).
Music, therefore, despite having a mana/magic aspect should be more paralleled with roars than magic. Instead of intimidation being the driving force, it's the charismatic nature of sounds that speaks to the sentient soul. IE the skill and charisma of the performer influencing an individuals emotions, much like roar does so with fear, rather than magical interaction.
I suppose I could sum it up by saying... if such coding as possible, remove BMR from the equation entirely. I would personally be willing to accept the help and harm from an enchante based on my will and concentration rather than based on inner fire. Of course by that rationality, it would be easier for a helpful enchante to influence me because I would naturally be less inclined to want to resist something positive whereas I would naturally be more inclined to get the sounds of something detrimental out of my head.
Again there is a whole can of worms in my opinion of BMR. Even I am uncertain where I stand on some issues. But I think, if coding makes it possible at all, that we can approach the question pragmatically by structuring our theoretical framework of magic and enchantes working on a related, but not necessarily equivocal set of principles.
First of all, in general, no matter what happens to BMR, bards, clerics, or empaths, I do not think there should be ANY resistance to dead targets. Not saying this out of convenience so that I can get a raise, but since that resistance is linked directly to inner fire, it stands to reason that a corpse has no inner energy.
I am also of the belief that resistance to magic is an inner focus. I know that room resistance mechanics throws this out the window, but philosophically speaking, I do not think that any magic not directed AT a barb should fall victim to BMR. This opens up a huge discussion about other types of area spells, but I'll limit it to what is salient to this topic.
I also agree that one could very reasonably interpret a bard enchante as drawing its true power from the sounds, even though the energy of those sounds derives from mana streams. It's manipulation of an external device not directed AT a barb per se, and again I believe resistance should be a manifestation of internal strength, not some kind of pervading force. Contrary to something targeted, which is more interpreted as a magical force guided TOWARDS a barb (even in the case of tkt, one could make a case that magic directs the projectile).
Music, therefore, despite having a mana/magic aspect should be more paralleled with roars than magic. Instead of intimidation being the driving force, it's the charismatic nature of sounds that speaks to the sentient soul. IE the skill and charisma of the performer influencing an individuals emotions, much like roar does so with fear, rather than magical interaction.
I suppose I could sum it up by saying... if such coding as possible, remove BMR from the equation entirely. I would personally be willing to accept the help and harm from an enchante based on my will and concentration rather than based on inner fire. Of course by that rationality, it would be easier for a helpful enchante to influence me because I would naturally be less inclined to want to resist something positive whereas I would naturally be more inclined to get the sounds of something detrimental out of my head.
Again there is a whole can of worms in my opinion of BMR. Even I am uncertain where I stand on some issues. But I think, if coding makes it possible at all, that we can approach the question pragmatically by structuring our theoretical framework of magic and enchantes working on a related, but not necessarily equivocal set of principles.
KAIJITALEX
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/25/2006 02:13 PM CDT
Okay, maybe I overlooked this explicit suggestion... but, as stated before me...
Why does BMR even have to affect an enchante? Why can't the enchante affect the BMR and let that be in its own little equation dual?
From my understanding, barbarians choose their life because they scorn magic and desire to kill with raw muscle and agility. Good. So, why do they possess this seemingly magical force that instantly stops an enchante from affecting other people?
So, just change the actions around. BMR doesn't throw off the entire enchante, it will simply resist for the barbarian.
Does this make sense?
Why does BMR even have to affect an enchante? Why can't the enchante affect the BMR and let that be in its own little equation dual?
From my understanding, barbarians choose their life because they scorn magic and desire to kill with raw muscle and agility. Good. So, why do they possess this seemingly magical force that instantly stops an enchante from affecting other people?
So, just change the actions around. BMR doesn't throw off the entire enchante, it will simply resist for the barbarian.
Does this make sense?
DWARB-POWER
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/25/2006 03:13 PM CDT
<<So, just change the actions around. BMR doesn't throw off the entire enchante, it will simply resist for the barbarian. Does this make sense>>
Yeah, that's one of the ideas that has been tossed around. It makes sense and sounds good.
- Simon
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Frontpage.html
"The problem with common sense, is that it is not so common."
Yeah, that's one of the ideas that has been tossed around. It makes sense and sounds good.
- Simon
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Frontpage.html
"The problem with common sense, is that it is not so common."
DRAGOONSEAL
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/26/2006 12:10 AM CDT
>I think the bottom line is that while the last thing I want to do is rewrite the entire magic theory and system again, we do need to concede that there are probles and issues that do need resolving for the sake of playability, game balance, and, quite frankly, fun.
In all honesty, I highly doubt they had fun in mind when they designed the current BMR. And I wonder about playability and game balance too.
Dragoonseal
In all honesty, I highly doubt they had fun in mind when they designed the current BMR. And I wonder about playability and game balance too.
Dragoonseal
WMZILDJAN
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/26/2006 01:26 AM CDT
It would seem that a convienent way to work around this is a person by person basis, either the enchante effects that person or not, regardless of guild. If one was to look at this in a real life atmosphere, you may come up with an observation that certain, said, persons will just not be steadfast enough to resist the moving effects of it. Also, regarding the issue of Deserts' Maelstrom and it's direct effect on the condition of the enviroment, said person would not have to resist the bard, but the actual physical changes within their sensory area. Is it still magic, once the bard makes the winds crazy? How exactly is bard Magic working?
I have never read, or even seen paraphrased, the Simutronics: DragonRealms, defination of Magical Theory. So, I will ask this, as an uninformed: What is the magic doing, in these circumstances?
-Ranger casts break branch at said barbarian.
-Moonmage casts TKT, TKS (and maybe SLS) at said barbarian.
-WM uses metallic ballista, Earth Fist (and more).
The way that these spells work may be a slightly similar model to the way that Enchantes work. Is enchantes a physical measurable phenonomon (or so i would come to believe). Enchantes being something that is measurable with octaves, bpm, kHz/Hz. It is the combination of vibrations working, usually, symbiotically with eachother, intergrating themselves to form the melodies.
Further, I believe the best way for us to even begin a discussion on this topic, would be to send us a link, or to re-post, the, exact and verbatim, rules for magic, enchantes, and BMR, respectivally.
You know, Mibe,
~ 104 Ranks and Counting
I have never read, or even seen paraphrased, the Simutronics: DragonRealms, defination of Magical Theory. So, I will ask this, as an uninformed: What is the magic doing, in these circumstances?
-Ranger casts break branch at said barbarian.
-Moonmage casts TKT, TKS (and maybe SLS) at said barbarian.
-WM uses metallic ballista, Earth Fist (and more).
The way that these spells work may be a slightly similar model to the way that Enchantes work. Is enchantes a physical measurable phenonomon (or so i would come to believe). Enchantes being something that is measurable with octaves, bpm, kHz/Hz. It is the combination of vibrations working, usually, symbiotically with eachother, intergrating themselves to form the melodies.
Further, I believe the best way for us to even begin a discussion on this topic, would be to send us a link, or to re-post, the, exact and verbatim, rules for magic, enchantes, and BMR, respectivally.
You know, Mibe,
~ 104 Ranks and Counting
WMZILDJAN
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/26/2006 01:38 AM CDT
That turned out like pooh.
I think you get what i'm asking. How do these all work, as individual entities and/or theorys. BMR, ENCHANTE, MagicalTheory. And can't theory be turned false? As much as I love new magic, and it's benifits... What happens when we "work around" said theory for too long, and it has to get rewritten again. Instead of just rewriting it now. To me it seems like something that will only work for, a year or two, maximum, and the system goes completely broken, where it is shifted too heavily to one side or the other, as some feel, after a system-tweak has been complete, when something gets 'worked around'.
Bards have come a long way. Don't mess this up by "the ties want us to work on more enjoyable and customer fufilling projects, therefore we wont fix something that has not been fully functional since 1997"
Barbarians have their BMR. Don't do this a disservice by "working around BMR"
Formulate an Enchante Theory.
This isn't completely magic, this isn't rangers and their soul touching connection with the inner harmonies of nature. This isn't MM's feeling empowered by the moons and heavenly bodies about them, this isn't Paladins and their devine righteousness, and WM's manipulation with the raw elements.
Do whatever you have to do.
You know, Mibe
~ 104 Ranks and Counting
I think you get what i'm asking. How do these all work, as individual entities and/or theorys. BMR, ENCHANTE, MagicalTheory. And can't theory be turned false? As much as I love new magic, and it's benifits... What happens when we "work around" said theory for too long, and it has to get rewritten again. Instead of just rewriting it now. To me it seems like something that will only work for, a year or two, maximum, and the system goes completely broken, where it is shifted too heavily to one side or the other, as some feel, after a system-tweak has been complete, when something gets 'worked around'.
Bards have come a long way. Don't mess this up by "the ties want us to work on more enjoyable and customer fufilling projects, therefore we wont fix something that has not been fully functional since 1997"
Barbarians have their BMR. Don't do this a disservice by "working around BMR"
Formulate an Enchante Theory.
This isn't completely magic, this isn't rangers and their soul touching connection with the inner harmonies of nature. This isn't MM's feeling empowered by the moons and heavenly bodies about them, this isn't Paladins and their devine righteousness, and WM's manipulation with the raw elements.
Do whatever you have to do.
You know, Mibe
~ 104 Ranks and Counting
BEVERAGEK
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/26/2006 09:19 AM CDT
I agree, while I'm all for moving forward with new things, I hardly find going around an issue as truely moving forward, either.
I also would like to see this Magic Theory. It's not like ya'll have formulae or anything in the theory, do you? It'd be really nice for reference.
The one who is obsessed with power.. and who still has a long way to go.
I also would like to see this Magic Theory. It's not like ya'll have formulae or anything in the theory, do you? It'd be really nice for reference.
The one who is obsessed with power.. and who still has a long way to go.
VROTSOSJ
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/26/2006 10:26 AM CDT
Category Abilities, Skills and Magic (4)
Topic Magic - Suggestions, Discussions and Thoughts (14)
By DR-DAMISSAK from PLAY.NET
On Apr 27, 2002 at 15:47
Subject Magic Resistance Theory (793)
We present to you the theory for Magic Resistance (and its extension - Barbarian Magic Resistance).
The lines of mana flow through everything in / on Elanthia (they even flow through Elanthia herself).
Spells manipulate these lines of mana away from their natural state to form spell patterns.
The body of every animate being naturally resists the manipulation of the mana lines passing through it.
Spells cast at a target or in the immediate vicinity of a target must necessarily manipulate the lines of mana that pass through said target, as well as those around it. The target's natural resistance to the manipulation of those lines of mana as they pass through it is the substance of magic resistance.
There are various different types of spell patterns. I'll discuss the theory of MR with regard to each one.
1) The first type of spell is the general cast spell. This spell type is typically cast with 'cast <xxxx>'. There are three variations of the general cast spell; beneficial, neutral, and detrimental. The pattern of a general cast spell forms in and around the immediate area that is the target. The mana lines which form the majority of the spell pattern are the very lines passing through said target. Therefore, the target's natural resistance to the manipulation of those mana lines increases the difficulty of that manipulation. The increased difficulty manifests itself in a possible decrease in the effectiveness of the spell.
2) The next type of spell is the targeted spell. This spell type is also cast with 'cast <xxxx>'. There is a large fundamental difference in functionality when comparing this spell type to general cast spells. A target (TM) spell is composed of two patterns (the spell pattern and the target pattern). The actual spell pattern for a targeted spell is formed at some location away from the target (and is therefore not resistable in any way). The matrix (release of energy) of the spell (whatever is formed) is then propelled towards the target pattern. The target pattern is formed in and around the immediate area that is the target. The mana lines which form the majority of the target pattern are the very lines passing through said target. Therefore, the target's natural resistance to the manipulation of those mana lines increases the difficulty of that manipulation. That increased difficultly manifests itself in a possible decrease in accuracy of the spell.
3) The last type of spell is the area effect spell. This spell type is typically cast with just 'cast'. Area effect spells can impact entire rooms, everything at melee, everything at pole or closer, everything at missle or closer, or everything in a given group. Area effect spells can also be classified as beneficial or detrimental. The pattern of an area effect spell forms in the entirety of the area that the spell affects (room, melee, pole, missle, group). The formation of the spell pattern must overcome the sum of the natural resistance of every animate being within said area.
.
. i) Different spell purposes have varying levels of resistance. Nothing in the spell pattern of beneficial spells is designed to overcome Magic Resistance since it is expected that the target would not be one that would resist the spell. Detrimental spells expect an unwilling target, and thus their spell patterns are designed to better overcome innate Magic Resistance. In practice, this means that beneficial or neutrally-oriented spells can be more easily resisted than detrimental spells.
ii) The caster of a spell will never be the cause of resistance against their own spell.
iii) Those able to manipulate mana (able to cast spells) become more receptive to the manipulation of the lines of mana passing through them thus nullifying their natural resistance in the case of beneficial spells. They are not able to increase their natural resistance in the case of detrimental spells, as to do so would run counter to their own ability to manipulate mana in and around themselves.
iv) Barbarian Magic Resistance works on exactly the same principles found in the base MR. The only difference is that Barbarians (because of presence of inner-fire) posess a higher degree resistance to the manipulation of the mana lines passing through them. The MR of the Barbarian (BMR) can fluctuate depending on the state of said barbarian and the state of their inner-fire. MR is basically fixed in non-Barbarians. The exact definition of inner-fire is out of the scope of this discussion, but is not truly necessary to understand the interaction of Magic Resistance and spell patterns.
.
. The results of such Magic Resistance can be the utter nullification of a spell, an increase in difficulty or reduction of spell effectiveness, or complete success by the spell caster at overcoming the Magic Resistance of the target.
Since Magic Resistance resists manipulation of mana through an individual, any such manipulation can potentially be resisted. In the case of a Passive Magical Device where there is no such manipulation of mana through an individual, Magic Resistance is undefined (ie. does not 'trigger').
Regards,
GM Damissak
Category Abilities, Skills and Magic (24)
Topic Magic - Suggestions, Discussions and Thoughts (21)
By By DR-DAMISSAK from PLAY.NET
On Apr 18, 2002 at 23:40
Subject Re: Magic resistance of a different kind - armor (466)
All damage (from combat and TM spells) comes in one of 6 forms.
GM Damissak
I am --- Navak
Topic Magic - Suggestions, Discussions and Thoughts (14)
By DR-DAMISSAK from PLAY.NET
On Apr 27, 2002 at 15:47
Subject Magic Resistance Theory (793)
We present to you the theory for Magic Resistance (and its extension - Barbarian Magic Resistance).
The lines of mana flow through everything in / on Elanthia (they even flow through Elanthia herself).
Spells manipulate these lines of mana away from their natural state to form spell patterns.
The body of every animate being naturally resists the manipulation of the mana lines passing through it.
Spells cast at a target or in the immediate vicinity of a target must necessarily manipulate the lines of mana that pass through said target, as well as those around it. The target's natural resistance to the manipulation of those lines of mana as they pass through it is the substance of magic resistance.
There are various different types of spell patterns. I'll discuss the theory of MR with regard to each one.
1) The first type of spell is the general cast spell. This spell type is typically cast with 'cast <xxxx>'. There are three variations of the general cast spell; beneficial, neutral, and detrimental. The pattern of a general cast spell forms in and around the immediate area that is the target. The mana lines which form the majority of the spell pattern are the very lines passing through said target. Therefore, the target's natural resistance to the manipulation of those mana lines increases the difficulty of that manipulation. The increased difficulty manifests itself in a possible decrease in the effectiveness of the spell.
2) The next type of spell is the targeted spell. This spell type is also cast with 'cast <xxxx>'. There is a large fundamental difference in functionality when comparing this spell type to general cast spells. A target (TM) spell is composed of two patterns (the spell pattern and the target pattern). The actual spell pattern for a targeted spell is formed at some location away from the target (and is therefore not resistable in any way). The matrix (release of energy) of the spell (whatever is formed) is then propelled towards the target pattern. The target pattern is formed in and around the immediate area that is the target. The mana lines which form the majority of the target pattern are the very lines passing through said target. Therefore, the target's natural resistance to the manipulation of those mana lines increases the difficulty of that manipulation. That increased difficultly manifests itself in a possible decrease in accuracy of the spell.
3) The last type of spell is the area effect spell. This spell type is typically cast with just 'cast'. Area effect spells can impact entire rooms, everything at melee, everything at pole or closer, everything at missle or closer, or everything in a given group. Area effect spells can also be classified as beneficial or detrimental. The pattern of an area effect spell forms in the entirety of the area that the spell affects (room, melee, pole, missle, group). The formation of the spell pattern must overcome the sum of the natural resistance of every animate being within said area.
.
. i) Different spell purposes have varying levels of resistance. Nothing in the spell pattern of beneficial spells is designed to overcome Magic Resistance since it is expected that the target would not be one that would resist the spell. Detrimental spells expect an unwilling target, and thus their spell patterns are designed to better overcome innate Magic Resistance. In practice, this means that beneficial or neutrally-oriented spells can be more easily resisted than detrimental spells.
ii) The caster of a spell will never be the cause of resistance against their own spell.
iii) Those able to manipulate mana (able to cast spells) become more receptive to the manipulation of the lines of mana passing through them thus nullifying their natural resistance in the case of beneficial spells. They are not able to increase their natural resistance in the case of detrimental spells, as to do so would run counter to their own ability to manipulate mana in and around themselves.
iv) Barbarian Magic Resistance works on exactly the same principles found in the base MR. The only difference is that Barbarians (because of presence of inner-fire) posess a higher degree resistance to the manipulation of the mana lines passing through them. The MR of the Barbarian (BMR) can fluctuate depending on the state of said barbarian and the state of their inner-fire. MR is basically fixed in non-Barbarians. The exact definition of inner-fire is out of the scope of this discussion, but is not truly necessary to understand the interaction of Magic Resistance and spell patterns.
.
. The results of such Magic Resistance can be the utter nullification of a spell, an increase in difficulty or reduction of spell effectiveness, or complete success by the spell caster at overcoming the Magic Resistance of the target.
Since Magic Resistance resists manipulation of mana through an individual, any such manipulation can potentially be resisted. In the case of a Passive Magical Device where there is no such manipulation of mana through an individual, Magic Resistance is undefined (ie. does not 'trigger').
Regards,
GM Damissak
Category Abilities, Skills and Magic (24)
Topic Magic - Suggestions, Discussions and Thoughts (21)
By By DR-DAMISSAK from PLAY.NET
On Apr 18, 2002 at 23:40
Subject Re: Magic resistance of a different kind - armor (466)
All damage (from combat and TM spells) comes in one of 6 forms.
GM Damissak
I am --- Navak
BEVERAGEK
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/26/2006 12:28 PM CDT
I'm curious, but is there or has there ever been written a definition of an Enchante and how it is created? I think that theory is what we could base all these concepts on that we're pulling out of nowhere(at least I am pulling my concepts out of nowhere).
On the site it says...
Enchantes
Bards use their skill with sound -- through their music skills -- to weave Elemental mana into magic songs called Enchantes.
Now, this states that we weave mana into the songs themselves; however, does that mean we are directly altering the mana flow of all the individuals of an area, or just the mana flow of the area into the song which then directly affects those who hear the song?
As I've stated before, there are multiple forms of enchantes as well--those that affect the listener, and those that stimulate the area regardless of any present listeners.
If indeed Bards merely alter the flow of mana of an area into sound and have no direct contact with the flow of mana of individuals, would that merit eliminating Magic Resistance for Enchantes alltogether?
After all, I highly doubt an enchanted sword would have to pass through Magic Resistance(or am I wrong?). A parallel can be drawn, I think, between an enchanted sword and the enchanted notes of an Enchante. One has to push the imagination a bit further with one over the other(a sword is a solid object that you can grasp, whereas sounds aren't so much physical--though the same thing can be said true about air. Both cannot be held or seen), however, both are very similar in concept I think.
Just some food for thought.
The one who is obsessed with power.. and who still has a long way to go.
On the site it says...
Enchantes
Bards use their skill with sound -- through their music skills -- to weave Elemental mana into magic songs called Enchantes.
Now, this states that we weave mana into the songs themselves; however, does that mean we are directly altering the mana flow of all the individuals of an area, or just the mana flow of the area into the song which then directly affects those who hear the song?
As I've stated before, there are multiple forms of enchantes as well--those that affect the listener, and those that stimulate the area regardless of any present listeners.
If indeed Bards merely alter the flow of mana of an area into sound and have no direct contact with the flow of mana of individuals, would that merit eliminating Magic Resistance for Enchantes alltogether?
After all, I highly doubt an enchanted sword would have to pass through Magic Resistance(or am I wrong?). A parallel can be drawn, I think, between an enchanted sword and the enchanted notes of an Enchante. One has to push the imagination a bit further with one over the other(a sword is a solid object that you can grasp, whereas sounds aren't so much physical--though the same thing can be said true about air. Both cannot be held or seen), however, both are very similar in concept I think.
Just some food for thought.
The one who is obsessed with power.. and who still has a long way to go.
DARKNESS51
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/26/2006 12:42 PM CDT
One problem I've always seen is the concept of magic resistance in DR as a whole. Why do we even call it magic resistance? It's not resisting magic, it's just stopping it, and once a point it reached, a spell goes off pretty much normal by just adding mana. It's more like, an anti-magic field, not a magic resistance. I see magic resistance working more like armor, where it actually helps uh, resist spells. This being the case, it'd only resist negative effects, positive too I guess, but I don't see why. Typically in games, magic resistance is a skill that makes it harder to have magically placed adverse effects, such as disease, debuffs, and damage, placed apon you. Why is DR so drastically different in its concept? Just thoughts anyway.
VROTSOSJ
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/26/2006 03:07 PM CDT
An enchanted sword isn't altering the natural flows of mana.
The pattern of music is the pattern for the magic in an enchante.
Magic resistance means resisting the alteration of mana from its natural state.
Magic resistance implies that it may be overcome, anti-magic field doesn't really carry that same idea...
I am --- Navak
The pattern of music is the pattern for the magic in an enchante.
Magic resistance means resisting the alteration of mana from its natural state.
Magic resistance implies that it may be overcome, anti-magic field doesn't really carry that same idea...
I am --- Navak
KAIJITALEX
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/26/2006 03:29 PM CDT
>>Typically in games, magic resistance is a skill that makes it harder to have magically placed adverse effects, such as disease, debuffs, and damage, placed apon you<<
See, there's a big problem with this whole concept and practical application of magic resistance: in DR, it's not a skill. It's some magic presence that acts just like magic (which said barbarians are sworn against) against other forms of magic.
I'm sorry, I just don't understand. It seems hypocritical to me.
With that being said, when the skill of magic resistance is realized, it shouldn't be descriminative. If you resistance is whacha want, then resistance is whacha get with and without the benefits. That being said, ya shouldn't get the benefits from a beneficial enchante/spell.
I understand why the skill is created. If barbarians didn't have it, magic primary guilds would have easy reign over all combats in the game. But, there doesn't seem to be any line that truly separates a barbarian from other guilds with regards to magic. Sure, you can't use magic, but you can get all the benefits of it with a li'l help.
I propose said benefits should not occur in DR.
But, I digress. BMR should be a learned skill. When dealing with bard enchantes, it should be on a personal BMR vs. enchante, not BMR vs. the room.
If we're talking about game balance. Right now, the barbarians are one up on the bards.
See, there's a big problem with this whole concept and practical application of magic resistance: in DR, it's not a skill. It's some magic presence that acts just like magic (which said barbarians are sworn against) against other forms of magic.
I'm sorry, I just don't understand. It seems hypocritical to me.
With that being said, when the skill of magic resistance is realized, it shouldn't be descriminative. If you resistance is whacha want, then resistance is whacha get with and without the benefits. That being said, ya shouldn't get the benefits from a beneficial enchante/spell.
I understand why the skill is created. If barbarians didn't have it, magic primary guilds would have easy reign over all combats in the game. But, there doesn't seem to be any line that truly separates a barbarian from other guilds with regards to magic. Sure, you can't use magic, but you can get all the benefits of it with a li'l help.
I propose said benefits should not occur in DR.
But, I digress. BMR should be a learned skill. When dealing with bard enchantes, it should be on a personal BMR vs. enchante, not BMR vs. the room.
If we're talking about game balance. Right now, the barbarians are one up on the bards.
DWARB-POWER
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/26/2006 03:57 PM CDT
<<Sure, you can't use magic, but you can get all the benefits of it with a li'l help.>>
We don't get all the benefits of magic. Barbarians can't use a lot of magic items and do not receive full benefits/duration of a (positive/negative) spell if resisted partially.
<<when the skill of magic resistance is realized, it shouldn't be descriminative.>>
I don't see why not.
<<When dealing with bard enchantes, it should be on a personal BMR vs. enchante, not BMR vs. the room.>>
Aren't the last two statements I listed that you wrote opposing one another? Why not have each person's MR or BMR attempt to resist the spell matrix of the enchante?
- Simon
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Frontpage.html
"The problem with common sense, is that it is not so common."
We don't get all the benefits of magic. Barbarians can't use a lot of magic items and do not receive full benefits/duration of a (positive/negative) spell if resisted partially.
<<when the skill of magic resistance is realized, it shouldn't be descriminative.>>
I don't see why not.
<<When dealing with bard enchantes, it should be on a personal BMR vs. enchante, not BMR vs. the room.>>
Aren't the last two statements I listed that you wrote opposing one another? Why not have each person's MR or BMR attempt to resist the spell matrix of the enchante?
- Simon
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Frontpage.html
"The problem with common sense, is that it is not so common."
BEVERAGEK
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/26/2006 04:26 PM CDT
>>An enchanted sword isn't altering the natural flows of mana.
To initially enchante the sword, you must alter the natural flow of mana.
>>The pattern of music is the pattern for the magic in an enchante.
The pattern of music in Enchantes is the direct process of enchanting the sounds with magic. An analogy can be made to the process of enfusing elemental properties into a sword. Both are done with a process--the end result is mundane matter with magical properties. In one case you have a magical piece of steel, and in the other, you have magical mechanical vibrations transmitted through an elastic medium, traveling in air at a speed of approximately 1087 ft. (331 m) per second at sea level.(according to dictionary.com)
>>Magic resistance means resisting the alteration of mana from its natural state.
You mean to tell me that having someone, ANYONE, in the same room as a Warrior Mage when enchanting a sword will hinder said mage's ability to enchante the sword? I doubt it.
The one who is obsessed with power.. and who still has a long way to go.
To initially enchante the sword, you must alter the natural flow of mana.
>>The pattern of music is the pattern for the magic in an enchante.
The pattern of music in Enchantes is the direct process of enchanting the sounds with magic. An analogy can be made to the process of enfusing elemental properties into a sword. Both are done with a process--the end result is mundane matter with magical properties. In one case you have a magical piece of steel, and in the other, you have magical mechanical vibrations transmitted through an elastic medium, traveling in air at a speed of approximately 1087 ft. (331 m) per second at sea level.(according to dictionary.com)
>>Magic resistance means resisting the alteration of mana from its natural state.
You mean to tell me that having someone, ANYONE, in the same room as a Warrior Mage when enchanting a sword will hinder said mage's ability to enchante the sword? I doubt it.
The one who is obsessed with power.. and who still has a long way to go.
RAYJE
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/26/2006 05:17 PM CDT
>> No, we don't want to completely redo magic theory yet again. Not even remotely close to that.
>Why?
>Mostly because I'd really like to start moving forward again, instead of constantly going in circles rewriting rewrites!
If you redo BMR and MR, wont you be changing magic theory anyway?
>In all honesty, I highly doubt they had fun in mind when they designed the current BMR. And I wonder about playability and game balance too.
Heh, if you knew Barchus you would know that statement is true.
"Oooh look at me Marge, I'm making people Happy! I'm the magical man, from Happy Land, who lives in a gumdrop house on Lolly Pop Lane!!!!...... By the way I was being sarcastic."
>Why?
>Mostly because I'd really like to start moving forward again, instead of constantly going in circles rewriting rewrites!
If you redo BMR and MR, wont you be changing magic theory anyway?
>In all honesty, I highly doubt they had fun in mind when they designed the current BMR. And I wonder about playability and game balance too.
Heh, if you knew Barchus you would know that statement is true.
"Oooh look at me Marge, I'm making people Happy! I'm the magical man, from Happy Land, who lives in a gumdrop house on Lolly Pop Lane!!!!...... By the way I was being sarcastic."
RAYJE
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/26/2006 05:19 PM CDT
>The way that these spells work may be a slightly similar model to the way that Enchantes work. Is enchantes a physical measurable phenonomon (or so i would come to believe). Enchantes being something that is measurable with octaves, bpm, kHz/Hz. It is the combination of vibrations working, usually, symbiotically with eachother, intergrating themselves to form the melodies.
I dont think all music is based on octaves.
"Oooh look at me Marge, I'm making people Happy! I'm the magical man, from Happy Land, who lives in a gumdrop house on Lolly Pop Lane!!!!...... By the way I was being sarcastic."
I dont think all music is based on octaves.
"Oooh look at me Marge, I'm making people Happy! I'm the magical man, from Happy Land, who lives in a gumdrop house on Lolly Pop Lane!!!!...... By the way I was being sarcastic."
VROTSOSJ
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/26/2006 07:11 PM CDT
>>If you resistance is whacha want, then resistance is whacha get with and without the benefits.
Uh, how do you think it works now? Not just for barbarians, but for thieves and traders too. Magic resistance is completely passive.
>>To initially enchante the sword, you must alter the natural flow of mana.
So? To cast a zephyr you must alter the natural flow of mana but once it is done, it is done.
>>You mean to tell me that having someone, ANYONE, in the same room as a Warrior Mage when enchanting a sword will hinder said mage's ability to enchante the sword? I doubt it.
Nope it wouldn't, for a few reasons.
Warrior Mages don't have weapon enchanting.
It's enchant and not enchante.
They are forming ths spell pattern around themselves.
Why do you think TM spells can't be made to fail unless they are hybrids? The spell pattern itself isn't resisted because it is created locally around the mage and the targetting pattern is what is created around the target.
The same local effect is created when self-casting.
>>The pattern of music in Enchantes is the direct process of enchanting the sounds with magic.
No, it isn't. The spell pattern through which mana is channeled, is the music. Neither the pattern nor the mana alone can cause spell effects, it's only when combined.
>>For example, Magic Theory explicitely stats that the music itself forms the spell patterns in enchantes, music being, in essence, precise mathematical patterns. How exactly are those patterns being disrupted by magic resistance if they are sound-based patterns, rather than magical? We can argue that the flow of mana through those patterns is being reduced, hindered, or disrupted, and that is certainly a very validarguement, but that's not how magic theory describes magic resistance working. Magic resistance hinders the formation of the patterns themselves, so where does that leave MR vs enchantes if the music is forming the patterns? These are some questions we need to re-examine. There are also parts of the system that were put off to be finished later, and were never finished, particularly in both MR and enchantes. Just dealing with these may address some (although not all) of the problems.
I am --- Navak
Uh, how do you think it works now? Not just for barbarians, but for thieves and traders too. Magic resistance is completely passive.
>>To initially enchante the sword, you must alter the natural flow of mana.
So? To cast a zephyr you must alter the natural flow of mana but once it is done, it is done.
>>You mean to tell me that having someone, ANYONE, in the same room as a Warrior Mage when enchanting a sword will hinder said mage's ability to enchante the sword? I doubt it.
Nope it wouldn't, for a few reasons.
Warrior Mages don't have weapon enchanting.
It's enchant and not enchante.
They are forming ths spell pattern around themselves.
Why do you think TM spells can't be made to fail unless they are hybrids? The spell pattern itself isn't resisted because it is created locally around the mage and the targetting pattern is what is created around the target.
The same local effect is created when self-casting.
>>The pattern of music in Enchantes is the direct process of enchanting the sounds with magic.
No, it isn't. The spell pattern through which mana is channeled, is the music. Neither the pattern nor the mana alone can cause spell effects, it's only when combined.
>>For example, Magic Theory explicitely stats that the music itself forms the spell patterns in enchantes, music being, in essence, precise mathematical patterns. How exactly are those patterns being disrupted by magic resistance if they are sound-based patterns, rather than magical? We can argue that the flow of mana through those patterns is being reduced, hindered, or disrupted, and that is certainly a very validarguement, but that's not how magic theory describes magic resistance working. Magic resistance hinders the formation of the patterns themselves, so where does that leave MR vs enchantes if the music is forming the patterns? These are some questions we need to re-examine. There are also parts of the system that were put off to be finished later, and were never finished, particularly in both MR and enchantes. Just dealing with these may address some (although not all) of the problems.
I am --- Navak
BEVERAGEK
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/26/2006 07:39 PM CDT
>>To initially enchante the sword, you must alter the natural flow of mana.
So? To cast a zephyr you must alter the natural flow of mana but once it is done, it is done.
<<
The point I was making, which you seemed to miss, is that indeed once the altering is done, it is done. Once you enchant the sounds of an enchante, they are free standing magical objects of their own not connected to the Bard. The same like an enchanted sword.
>>They are forming ths spell pattern around themselves.
<<
Themselves and the object in question. In our case, it would be around the Bard and the notes of the song.
>>The pattern of music in Enchantes is the direct process of enchanting the sounds with magic.
No, it isn't. The spell pattern through which mana is channeled, is the music. Neither the pattern nor the mana alone can cause spell effects, it's only when combined.
<<
Ok, a slight modification to my theory based on your comments. Let me try to explain my take on it again. The Bard performs the Enchante which is magical, and he/she enchants the notes of a song with mana/magic to increase the power of the pattern, making it stronger. The Bard is still not directly altering the flow of mana outside of him/herself and an object--the notes of the song. Being this as it is, no manipulation of mana flow around anyone other than the singer and the song is taking place. In other words, there is no call for Magic Resistance at all. It is back to the scenario of someone getting attacked by an enchanted fire sword.
>>For example, Magic Theory explicitely stats that the music itself forms the spell patterns in enchantes, music being, in essence, precise mathematical patterns. How exactly are those patterns being disrupted by magic resistance if they are sound-based patterns, rather than magical? We can argue that the flow of mana through those patterns is being reduced, hindered, or disrupted, and that is certainly a very validarguement, but that's not how magic theory describes magic resistance working. Magic resistance hinders the formation of the patterns themselves, so where does that leave MR vs enchantes if the music is forming the patterns? These are some questions we need to re-examine. There are also parts of the system that were put off to be finished later, and were never finished, particularly in both MR and enchantes. Just dealing with these may address some (although not all) of the problems.
<<
Thanks for reposting that, it made me realize what part I was getting wrong.
I question, Dart, is it possible for the theory stated above to change?
The one who is obsessed with power.. and who still has a long way to go.
So? To cast a zephyr you must alter the natural flow of mana but once it is done, it is done.
<<
The point I was making, which you seemed to miss, is that indeed once the altering is done, it is done. Once you enchant the sounds of an enchante, they are free standing magical objects of their own not connected to the Bard. The same like an enchanted sword.
>>They are forming ths spell pattern around themselves.
<<
Themselves and the object in question. In our case, it would be around the Bard and the notes of the song.
>>The pattern of music in Enchantes is the direct process of enchanting the sounds with magic.
No, it isn't. The spell pattern through which mana is channeled, is the music. Neither the pattern nor the mana alone can cause spell effects, it's only when combined.
<<
Ok, a slight modification to my theory based on your comments. Let me try to explain my take on it again. The Bard performs the Enchante which is magical, and he/she enchants the notes of a song with mana/magic to increase the power of the pattern, making it stronger. The Bard is still not directly altering the flow of mana outside of him/herself and an object--the notes of the song. Being this as it is, no manipulation of mana flow around anyone other than the singer and the song is taking place. In other words, there is no call for Magic Resistance at all. It is back to the scenario of someone getting attacked by an enchanted fire sword.
>>For example, Magic Theory explicitely stats that the music itself forms the spell patterns in enchantes, music being, in essence, precise mathematical patterns. How exactly are those patterns being disrupted by magic resistance if they are sound-based patterns, rather than magical? We can argue that the flow of mana through those patterns is being reduced, hindered, or disrupted, and that is certainly a very validarguement, but that's not how magic theory describes magic resistance working. Magic resistance hinders the formation of the patterns themselves, so where does that leave MR vs enchantes if the music is forming the patterns? These are some questions we need to re-examine. There are also parts of the system that were put off to be finished later, and were never finished, particularly in both MR and enchantes. Just dealing with these may address some (although not all) of the problems.
<<
Thanks for reposting that, it made me realize what part I was getting wrong.
I question, Dart, is it possible for the theory stated above to change?
The one who is obsessed with power.. and who still has a long way to go.
DR-IAYN
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/26/2006 07:54 PM CDT
Let's get back on topic, which is the interaction of BMR and bardic enchantes, and how you believe they (and the bard and barbarian guilds) should interact.
Gamemaster Iayn
Barbarian Liaison
Gamemaster Iayn
Barbarian Liaison
BEVERAGEK
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/26/2006 09:11 PM CDT
>>Let's get back on topic, which is the interaction of BMR and bardic enchantes, and how you believe they (and the bard and barbarian guilds) should interact.
My vote for BMR and Enchante interaction -- It(BMR) shouldn't, nor should any Magic Resistance be a factor in resisting Enchantes. It should act the same as if you were getting hit by an enchanted sword. No IF hit, no backfiring by means of BMR or any other MR, no nothing. Resisting should be on a person by person basis as I believe Navak mentioned earlier, but should not include Magic Resistance of any kind. It should be a seperate resistance, one of discipline most likely. Also, the verb COVER EAR should lend aid into resisting Enchante effects, but no actions should be available while doing this.(ok, maybe I got a bit carried away with that last suggestion)
As to Barbarian/Bard interaction, I'm not sure what you are requesting. Are you asking for ideas for possible guild shared abilities, or abilities that are only capable when both entities are in the same room, or any suggestions under the sun in regards to furthering teamwork among members of the Bard and Barbarian guild?
The one who is obsessed with power.. and who still has a long way to go.
My vote for BMR and Enchante interaction -- It(BMR) shouldn't, nor should any Magic Resistance be a factor in resisting Enchantes. It should act the same as if you were getting hit by an enchanted sword. No IF hit, no backfiring by means of BMR or any other MR, no nothing. Resisting should be on a person by person basis as I believe Navak mentioned earlier, but should not include Magic Resistance of any kind. It should be a seperate resistance, one of discipline most likely. Also, the verb COVER EAR should lend aid into resisting Enchante effects, but no actions should be available while doing this.(ok, maybe I got a bit carried away with that last suggestion)
As to Barbarian/Bard interaction, I'm not sure what you are requesting. Are you asking for ideas for possible guild shared abilities, or abilities that are only capable when both entities are in the same room, or any suggestions under the sun in regards to furthering teamwork among members of the Bard and Barbarian guild?
The one who is obsessed with power.. and who still has a long way to go.
DWARB-POWER
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/26/2006 09:41 PM CDT
<<My vote for BMR and Enchante interaction -- It(BMR) shouldn't, nor should any Magic Resistance be a factor in resisting Enchantes. It should act the same as if you were getting hit by an enchanted sword. No IF hit, no backfiring by means of BMR or any other MR, no nothing.>>
I'm confused here. Are you comparing enchantes (active area spells) to an enchanted sword (passive magical item)? Wait, why?
I would think there would be no inner fire hit to enchanted weapons (are these even existing?) if they are used in a passive manner. Meaning, the sword is enchanted with magic. The Barbarian is only using the sword. Similar to how it works when a cleric blesses a blade and a Barbarian uses the sword. He isn't resisting the mana from bless, because the bless was directed at the blade. The blade is used by the Barbarian and the bless doesn't interact with the Barbarian in any way.
- Simon
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Frontpage.html
"The problem with common sense, is that it is not so common."
I'm confused here. Are you comparing enchantes (active area spells) to an enchanted sword (passive magical item)? Wait, why?
I would think there would be no inner fire hit to enchanted weapons (are these even existing?) if they are used in a passive manner. Meaning, the sword is enchanted with magic. The Barbarian is only using the sword. Similar to how it works when a cleric blesses a blade and a Barbarian uses the sword. He isn't resisting the mana from bless, because the bless was directed at the blade. The blade is used by the Barbarian and the bless doesn't interact with the Barbarian in any way.
- Simon
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Frontpage.html
"The problem with common sense, is that it is not so common."
RAYJE
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/27/2006 12:57 AM CDT
>Let's get back on topic, which is the interaction of BMR and bardic enchantes, and how you believe they (and the bard and barbarian guilds) should interact.
Barbarians should kill all Bards on sight and take their booze.
"Oooh look at me Marge, I'm making people Happy! I'm the magical man, from Happy Land, who lives in a gumdrop house on Lolly Pop Lane!!!!...... By the way I was being sarcastic."
Barbarians should kill all Bards on sight and take their booze.
"Oooh look at me Marge, I'm making people Happy! I'm the magical man, from Happy Land, who lives in a gumdrop house on Lolly Pop Lane!!!!...... By the way I was being sarcastic."
BEVERAGEK
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/27/2006 02:34 AM CDT
>>I'm confused here.
Why? I've explained everything in my past 2-3 posts.
>>Are you comparing enchantes (active area spells) to an enchanted sword (passive magical item)?
Enchantes aren't area effect spells, that's why we're trying to change how Enchantes work. And yes, I am comparing the magical notes of an Enchante to the magical steel of an enchanted sword, or at least, I was until the GM told me to get back on topic.
>>Wait, why?
Because they are very similar. You know, enchanted steel, and enchanted sound. Both are magical, both require mana manipulation to create, and both affect an opponent without altering his/her mana flow. This is where I arrived at my conclusion that Enchantes shouldn't touch Magic Resistance or BMR.
>>I would think there would be no inner fire hit to enchanted weapons (are these even existing?) if they are used in a passive manner. Meaning, the sword is enchanted with magic. The Barbarian is only using the sword. Similar to how it works when a cleric blesses a blade and a Barbarian uses the sword. He isn't resisting the mana from bless, because the bless was directed at the blade. The blade is used by the Barbarian and the bless doesn't interact with the Barbarian in any way.
<<
Woah there, I wasn't touching anything regarding Barbarian Inner Fire other than that I think Enchantes should NOT hurt Barbarian IF, since I also think that Enchantes should not go through Magic Resistance or BMR.
It'd be cool if they created tag team moves in DR, if certain conditions were met for the Bard and Barb.
The one who is obsessed with power.. and who still has a long way to go.
Why? I've explained everything in my past 2-3 posts.
>>Are you comparing enchantes (active area spells) to an enchanted sword (passive magical item)?
Enchantes aren't area effect spells, that's why we're trying to change how Enchantes work. And yes, I am comparing the magical notes of an Enchante to the magical steel of an enchanted sword, or at least, I was until the GM told me to get back on topic.
>>Wait, why?
Because they are very similar. You know, enchanted steel, and enchanted sound. Both are magical, both require mana manipulation to create, and both affect an opponent without altering his/her mana flow. This is where I arrived at my conclusion that Enchantes shouldn't touch Magic Resistance or BMR.
>>I would think there would be no inner fire hit to enchanted weapons (are these even existing?) if they are used in a passive manner. Meaning, the sword is enchanted with magic. The Barbarian is only using the sword. Similar to how it works when a cleric blesses a blade and a Barbarian uses the sword. He isn't resisting the mana from bless, because the bless was directed at the blade. The blade is used by the Barbarian and the bless doesn't interact with the Barbarian in any way.
<<
Woah there, I wasn't touching anything regarding Barbarian Inner Fire other than that I think Enchantes should NOT hurt Barbarian IF, since I also think that Enchantes should not go through Magic Resistance or BMR.
It'd be cool if they created tag team moves in DR, if certain conditions were met for the Bard and Barb.
The one who is obsessed with power.. and who still has a long way to go.
COVERG
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/27/2006 07:14 AM CDT
Berserk I would not notice the music, same with battle going on. To much noise for the music to effect me.
Now if a bard was in my group, I would like to see my BMR work as a negative and HELP the bard over come my and others resistance. If not in a group, conscent, just like any other magic sent my way.
______
Magdar Bluefletch, Legendary Barbarian of M'Riss
Now if a bard was in my group, I would like to see my BMR work as a negative and HELP the bard over come my and others resistance. If not in a group, conscent, just like any other magic sent my way.
______
Magdar Bluefletch, Legendary Barbarian of M'Riss
BEVERAGEK
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/27/2006 10:22 AM CDT
Ohh, another suggestin. Make there be three seperate versions of enchantes.
1) The first kind of enchante is merely audible, and has no affect on the area. This is the kind of enchante that I drew parallels to enchanted swords. Since that is the case, no Magic Resistance is checked in any calculatins for this kind of enchante. Likewise, there is no IF hit for these kinds of enchantes what so ever.
2) The second kind of enchante is that of an area effect--enchantes that directly stimulate the area. These kinds of enchantes do take Magic Resistance(and BMR) into account in calculations, but only on a person by person basis. When these enchantes pulse, if Resistance wins completely, it negates all effects of that one pulse. Each pulse checks Magic Resistance again, but there should only be an IF hit if Magic Resistance doesn't block more than half of the pulse. How much IF that gets damaaged depends on how much of the enchante that gets by after that 50% mark. That way, if an enchante is barely getting by MR on pulses it doesn't mean a terrible boon for the Barbaran.
3) The only enchante that I know of that would fall into this catagory is Breath of Storms. I am not sure how this will work. Obviously it will not use TM(as Bards aren't magic prime), so no matrix will be made around the opponent. It could, in my theory, be a 'crack shot' that the Bard manually aims, or something. That is only a theory though. Either way, I do not believe MR will be checked in this scenario, or it would call for Targetted Magic which is a no no.
Berserking might already lend aid into resisting the first kind of enchante, as I'm assuming it would be discipline heavy in the resist calculations. I am assuming that your berserks lend aid to the discipline attribute.
This way, tribal beat enchantes that directly affect the soul, versus enchantes that magically affect the area, may lend aid to both Bards and Barbarians alike. Enchantes such as Harmony, Drums of the Snake, Rage of the Clans--all of these enchantes are the audible kinds of enchantes(#1 in the list).
However, enchantes such as Desert's Maelstrom that are area effect are a double edged sword. If the Barbarian is constantly only resisting less than 50% of the enchante, there will be continual IF hit; however, if the Barbarian continually resists more than 50%, therre will be no IF hit, and he/she will continually get a portion of the positive or negative effects of the enchante.
The one who is obsessed with power.. and who still has a long way to go.
1) The first kind of enchante is merely audible, and has no affect on the area. This is the kind of enchante that I drew parallels to enchanted swords. Since that is the case, no Magic Resistance is checked in any calculatins for this kind of enchante. Likewise, there is no IF hit for these kinds of enchantes what so ever.
2) The second kind of enchante is that of an area effect--enchantes that directly stimulate the area. These kinds of enchantes do take Magic Resistance(and BMR) into account in calculations, but only on a person by person basis. When these enchantes pulse, if Resistance wins completely, it negates all effects of that one pulse. Each pulse checks Magic Resistance again, but there should only be an IF hit if Magic Resistance doesn't block more than half of the pulse. How much IF that gets damaaged depends on how much of the enchante that gets by after that 50% mark. That way, if an enchante is barely getting by MR on pulses it doesn't mean a terrible boon for the Barbaran.
3) The only enchante that I know of that would fall into this catagory is Breath of Storms. I am not sure how this will work. Obviously it will not use TM(as Bards aren't magic prime), so no matrix will be made around the opponent. It could, in my theory, be a 'crack shot' that the Bard manually aims, or something. That is only a theory though. Either way, I do not believe MR will be checked in this scenario, or it would call for Targetted Magic which is a no no.
Berserking might already lend aid into resisting the first kind of enchante, as I'm assuming it would be discipline heavy in the resist calculations. I am assuming that your berserks lend aid to the discipline attribute.
This way, tribal beat enchantes that directly affect the soul, versus enchantes that magically affect the area, may lend aid to both Bards and Barbarians alike. Enchantes such as Harmony, Drums of the Snake, Rage of the Clans--all of these enchantes are the audible kinds of enchantes(#1 in the list).
However, enchantes such as Desert's Maelstrom that are area effect are a double edged sword. If the Barbarian is constantly only resisting less than 50% of the enchante, there will be continual IF hit; however, if the Barbarian continually resists more than 50%, therre will be no IF hit, and he/she will continually get a portion of the positive or negative effects of the enchante.
The one who is obsessed with power.. and who still has a long way to go.
DWARB-POWER
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/27/2006 10:25 AM CDT
<<Enchantes aren't area effect spells>>
You are so off the track, you've fell off the train and had a concussion.
<<I wasn't touching anything regarding Barbarian Inner Fire other than that I think Enchantes should NOT hurt Barbarian IF, since I also think that Enchantes should not go through Magic Resistance or BMR.>>
Ok, I'm going to disagree. I still think Barbarians should attempt to resist negative, neutral, positive magic. The only thing that sounds appropriate is to make Enchantes work on each individual in the area instead of the entire area as a cumulative score. Barbarians scorn magic, this is them resisting the matrix of the enchante trying to affect them. That'd help Bards start enchantes with more consistancy due to the fact it doesn't collapse when their skills/stats cannot overcome the entire room's MR.
- Simon
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Frontpage.html
"The problem with common sense, is that it is not so common."
You are so off the track, you've fell off the train and had a concussion.
<<I wasn't touching anything regarding Barbarian Inner Fire other than that I think Enchantes should NOT hurt Barbarian IF, since I also think that Enchantes should not go through Magic Resistance or BMR.>>
Ok, I'm going to disagree. I still think Barbarians should attempt to resist negative, neutral, positive magic. The only thing that sounds appropriate is to make Enchantes work on each individual in the area instead of the entire area as a cumulative score. Barbarians scorn magic, this is them resisting the matrix of the enchante trying to affect them. That'd help Bards start enchantes with more consistancy due to the fact it doesn't collapse when their skills/stats cannot overcome the entire room's MR.
- Simon
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Frontpage.html
"The problem with common sense, is that it is not so common."
BEVERAGEK
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/27/2006 10:35 AM CDT
>>Enchantes aren't area effect spells>>
You are so off the track, you've fell off the train and had a concussion.
<<
That is the second kind of enchante type that I proposed in my prior post.
What we are striving for, is a possible positive relation between Bards and Barbarians in a hunting environment. If all kinds of enchantes are 'evil area effect magic' as you say, versus the more ritualistic beats of music, then there will always be resentment and negative relation between Barbarians and Bards. What I proposed earlier, is that there be 3 seperate kinds of enchantes. The 'evil area effect magic' kind, the merely audible kind, and a seperate third kind. The merely audible kind is no more 'evil magic' than an enchanted sword is. This way, Bards and Barbarians may have a positive relation with each other on at least some level, even possibly with the area effect kind of certain circumstances are held true. Please read my prior post in regards to the three proposed kinds of enchantes.
Thanks.
The one who is obsessed with power.. and who still has a long way to go.
You are so off the track, you've fell off the train and had a concussion.
<<
That is the second kind of enchante type that I proposed in my prior post.
What we are striving for, is a possible positive relation between Bards and Barbarians in a hunting environment. If all kinds of enchantes are 'evil area effect magic' as you say, versus the more ritualistic beats of music, then there will always be resentment and negative relation between Barbarians and Bards. What I proposed earlier, is that there be 3 seperate kinds of enchantes. The 'evil area effect magic' kind, the merely audible kind, and a seperate third kind. The merely audible kind is no more 'evil magic' than an enchanted sword is. This way, Bards and Barbarians may have a positive relation with each other on at least some level, even possibly with the area effect kind of certain circumstances are held true. Please read my prior post in regards to the three proposed kinds of enchantes.
Thanks.
The one who is obsessed with power.. and who still has a long way to go.
DWARB-POWER
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/27/2006 10:55 AM CDT
<<What we are striving for, is a possible positive relation between Bards and Barbarians in a hunting environment.>>
I know, suggested my thoughts on that.
<<If all kinds of enchantes are 'evil area effect magic' as you say, versus the more ritualistic beats of music>>
But enchantes are not just music. They also incorporate mana. The Barbarian is resisting the matrix of the enchante/spell surrounding them.
<<The merely audible kind is no more 'evil magic' than an enchanted sword is.>>
Enchantes are not just music.
<<This way, Bards and Barbarians may have a positive relation with each other on at least some level, even possibly with the area effect kind of certain circumstances are held true.>>
True, if Bardic enchantes were just based on music and not mana, as well.
- Simon
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Frontpage.html
"The problem with common sense, is that it is not so common."
I know, suggested my thoughts on that.
<<If all kinds of enchantes are 'evil area effect magic' as you say, versus the more ritualistic beats of music>>
But enchantes are not just music. They also incorporate mana. The Barbarian is resisting the matrix of the enchante/spell surrounding them.
<<The merely audible kind is no more 'evil magic' than an enchanted sword is.>>
Enchantes are not just music.
<<This way, Bards and Barbarians may have a positive relation with each other on at least some level, even possibly with the area effect kind of certain circumstances are held true.>>
True, if Bardic enchantes were just based on music and not mana, as well.
- Simon
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Frontpage.html
"The problem with common sense, is that it is not so common."
KUMI
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/27/2006 12:05 PM CDT
Ok I might as well just simplify a position to say just split them up. For the sake of playability if nothing else, either remove BMR totally from the equation or remove any effect of bardic enchantes on an individual barb and not have BMR effect the room in any way.
IE either throw BMR out of the loop or throw any barb in the room out of the loop. I'm more in favor of throwing the barb out of the loop. Don't benefit, don't get hit. I, for one, can live without any thing enchante good or bad, but I have a lot of empathy for the fact that even the act of wanting to train forces any bards out of rooms with barbs in them. It's not like an offensive spell where very few are necessary for a mage to train. In other words, give them a break.
Could go on and on about coming up with a definite, universal conception of BMR and pick apart every possible spell/enchante one by one, or accept that playability just sometimes needs to generalize.
PS... whoever likened resistance to immunity has never up against a skilled mage. We are most definitely not immune.
IE either throw BMR out of the loop or throw any barb in the room out of the loop. I'm more in favor of throwing the barb out of the loop. Don't benefit, don't get hit. I, for one, can live without any thing enchante good or bad, but I have a lot of empathy for the fact that even the act of wanting to train forces any bards out of rooms with barbs in them. It's not like an offensive spell where very few are necessary for a mage to train. In other words, give them a break.
Could go on and on about coming up with a definite, universal conception of BMR and pick apart every possible spell/enchante one by one, or accept that playability just sometimes needs to generalize.
PS... whoever likened resistance to immunity has never up against a skilled mage. We are most definitely not immune.
BEVERAGEK
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/27/2006 01:36 PM CDT
>>3) The only enchante that I know of that would fall into this catagory is Breath of Storms. I am not sure how this will work. Obviously it will not use TM(as Bards aren't magic prime), so no matrix will be made around the opponent. It could, in my theory, be a 'crack shot' that the Bard manually aims, or something. That is only a theory though. Either way, I do not believe MR will be checked in this scenario, or it would call for Targetted Magic which is a no no.
<<
I just realized that I can think of another enchante that acts in this same manner. Phoenix's Pyre. These kinds of enchantes will be ones that have external effects that do not directly affect anyone present in the room directly. Merelew's Legacy would also fall under this catagory. After all, what would a Barbarian be resisting in this case? Merelew's Legacy and Phoenix's Pyre have no affect on any person in the room--only on inanimate objects of the room.
This is different from enchantes that affect the mana flow around all things(including life forms) of an area--enchantes such as Desert's Maelstrom. It is also different from enchantes that do not come close to touching the mana streams around anything in the room other than the Bard who initially weaves mana into the song--enchantes such as Rage of the Clans or Naming of Tears.
The one who is obsessed with power.. and who still has a long way to go.
<<
I just realized that I can think of another enchante that acts in this same manner. Phoenix's Pyre. These kinds of enchantes will be ones that have external effects that do not directly affect anyone present in the room directly. Merelew's Legacy would also fall under this catagory. After all, what would a Barbarian be resisting in this case? Merelew's Legacy and Phoenix's Pyre have no affect on any person in the room--only on inanimate objects of the room.
This is different from enchantes that affect the mana flow around all things(including life forms) of an area--enchantes such as Desert's Maelstrom. It is also different from enchantes that do not come close to touching the mana streams around anything in the room other than the Bard who initially weaves mana into the song--enchantes such as Rage of the Clans or Naming of Tears.
The one who is obsessed with power.. and who still has a long way to go.
BEVERAGEK
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/27/2006 01:54 PM CDT
I think a few of our abilities should be co-bonusing. Dancing and Enchantes should go together pretty nicely, bonusing one another I think in some cases. It'd add some flair to the realms, in my opinion, and would encourage teamwork. Perhaps even seperate dance options outside of current Barbarian Dances could be implemented, for both guilds?
Perhaps there could even be an teach-shared concept created in the fields of roars, screams, and the new dances? A new series of dances could become available for during combat enchantes like Rage of the Clans, Desert's Maelstrom, and Naming of Tears. Both Barbarian and Bards would get different forms of dances, and there could be a teach-shared system similar to the thief-bard voice throw sharing. Maybe this could even cross into screams and roars? Of course, not every dance, scream, or roar would be able to be taught. I really like the idea of guild-shared abilities upon a teaching system, and I wish they would have delved more into the current version with thieves and bards.
The one who is obsessed with power.. and who still has a long way to go.
Perhaps there could even be an teach-shared concept created in the fields of roars, screams, and the new dances? A new series of dances could become available for during combat enchantes like Rage of the Clans, Desert's Maelstrom, and Naming of Tears. Both Barbarian and Bards would get different forms of dances, and there could be a teach-shared system similar to the thief-bard voice throw sharing. Maybe this could even cross into screams and roars? Of course, not every dance, scream, or roar would be able to be taught. I really like the idea of guild-shared abilities upon a teaching system, and I wish they would have delved more into the current version with thieves and bards.
The one who is obsessed with power.. and who still has a long way to go.
CONRADB
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/28/2006 05:42 PM CDT
After reading all these, my thoughts:
I really like the complete removal of BMR for enchantes (drop barbs to normal MR) but I'm worried a lot of folks will be against it. A compromise that takes into account that while a WM or MM is using soley magic, a bard is using music as well (both IC in the messaging and also in the skill checks of lore music skills in enchantes):
All characters use a modified MR for enchante contests that = (Their base MR) * (% of x enchante that is magic)
In addition, halve the current BMR that goes into the equation against enchantes because Barbs should be more susceptible to music interweaved with magic rather than direct, obvious magic. (Music soothes the savage beast, etc). Because of this, IF hits due to enchantes should also be halved.
We could then make the susceptibility to the various enchantes by varying their X (component of effect that is derived from magic.) Some enchantes seem to be just spells where the bard is continually incanting (Desert's Maelstrom or DEMA, where you're raising a dust storm around you). However others seem really musical and I can get into the idea that the music is really driving it home.
For example:
Multiplier (the % of the enchante defined as "being magic")
Rage = .1
Lilt = .1
DEMA = .9
Naga = .9
DMRS = .5
etc etc
So this would have the effect of making the MR and IF hit of a barb 5% of what it is today for "mostly musical" enchantes and 45% of what it is today for "mostly magical" enchantes.
I'd love to have secondary effects for a variety of enchante/dance combinations, bonusing and penalizing each other in interesting ways. Rage should boost 'zerks, drums of the snake should boost dances, redeemer's pride should help resist roars to a much greater degree (and maybe boost roars when sung and the barb is in the group?), hmmm...not sure what barb actions should help bards. Maybe have these enchantes only have the barb-helping/hurting ability when played on a warhorn. Maybe allow a barb to use a warhorn to signal total acceptance of music and negate any resistance/MR check or accompany a bard enchante with various effects.
E
I really like the complete removal of BMR for enchantes (drop barbs to normal MR) but I'm worried a lot of folks will be against it. A compromise that takes into account that while a WM or MM is using soley magic, a bard is using music as well (both IC in the messaging and also in the skill checks of lore music skills in enchantes):
All characters use a modified MR for enchante contests that = (Their base MR) * (% of x enchante that is magic)
In addition, halve the current BMR that goes into the equation against enchantes because Barbs should be more susceptible to music interweaved with magic rather than direct, obvious magic. (Music soothes the savage beast, etc). Because of this, IF hits due to enchantes should also be halved.
We could then make the susceptibility to the various enchantes by varying their X (component of effect that is derived from magic.) Some enchantes seem to be just spells where the bard is continually incanting (Desert's Maelstrom or DEMA, where you're raising a dust storm around you). However others seem really musical and I can get into the idea that the music is really driving it home.
For example:
Multiplier (the % of the enchante defined as "being magic")
Rage = .1
Lilt = .1
DEMA = .9
Naga = .9
DMRS = .5
etc etc
So this would have the effect of making the MR and IF hit of a barb 5% of what it is today for "mostly musical" enchantes and 45% of what it is today for "mostly magical" enchantes.
I'd love to have secondary effects for a variety of enchante/dance combinations, bonusing and penalizing each other in interesting ways. Rage should boost 'zerks, drums of the snake should boost dances, redeemer's pride should help resist roars to a much greater degree (and maybe boost roars when sung and the barb is in the group?), hmmm...not sure what barb actions should help bards. Maybe have these enchantes only have the barb-helping/hurting ability when played on a warhorn. Maybe allow a barb to use a warhorn to signal total acceptance of music and negate any resistance/MR check or accompany a bard enchante with various effects.
E
BETHERINGTON
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/28/2006 07:45 PM CDT
I have a problem with making enchante's easier to land on barbarians. So what if you claim they are music, it's not my kind of music. My music is the striking of sword on shield, the grinding of bone under a mace, the shattering of skulls by the fierce swing of a maul.
What's one persons music is another person's noise.
Why not a different approach. Bards must actively "SING TO" a barbarian in order to affect them. Iayn said to not worry about technical difficulties, so that would be my solution. Unless a bard is actively trying to affect the barbarian, remove the barbarian from the equation.
I'll argue against any solution that makes magic easier to affect me. You keep your magic, I'll keep my fire.
Keep your magic off me!
Niamara
4 out of 3 barbarians have trouble with fractions
What's one persons music is another person's noise.
Why not a different approach. Bards must actively "SING TO" a barbarian in order to affect them. Iayn said to not worry about technical difficulties, so that would be my solution. Unless a bard is actively trying to affect the barbarian, remove the barbarian from the equation.
I'll argue against any solution that makes magic easier to affect me. You keep your magic, I'll keep my fire.
Keep your magic off me!
Niamara
4 out of 3 barbarians have trouble with fractions
BEVERAGEK
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/28/2006 10:42 PM CDT
>>I'll argue against any solution that makes magic easier to affect me. You keep your magic, I'll keep my fire.
The problem is, what if you get a high circle Bard that can just totally sing over a Barbarian in a room. Would you have it so that your IF continually gets eaten away by the BMR contests? I hardly find it fair to say "use our MR and BMR, but don't touch my IF!" Additionally, I do not like the idea of having to 'target' anyone. That is what targetted spells are for.
I suppose you could just say, "MR and BMR for all enchante contests, and if BMR wins cancel the effects only for the Barbarian. Everyone's happy!"; however, everyone would not be happy. What about the Barbarians who want to hunt with Bards, and vica versa? I think we have to consider the good and the bad for all groups with this, not just the extreme "We hate magic!" or "Enchantes pwnz!" groups.
At least with the route in my prior post, some enchantes would ignore all of MR and would rely on seperate defense calculations(that is not to say that these enchantes would be easier to resist after the changes, just that they would rely on a new defense calculator that does not include MR of any kind in the defense check). These kinds of enchantes wouldn't hurt IF at all. Also, you would still have your mighty MR and BMR to help defend against enchantes like Desert's Maelstrom and the more powerful external-lifeform-stimulating enchantes.
Have to give and take, I say.
The one who is obsessed with power.. and who still has a long way to go.
The problem is, what if you get a high circle Bard that can just totally sing over a Barbarian in a room. Would you have it so that your IF continually gets eaten away by the BMR contests? I hardly find it fair to say "use our MR and BMR, but don't touch my IF!" Additionally, I do not like the idea of having to 'target' anyone. That is what targetted spells are for.
I suppose you could just say, "MR and BMR for all enchante contests, and if BMR wins cancel the effects only for the Barbarian. Everyone's happy!"; however, everyone would not be happy. What about the Barbarians who want to hunt with Bards, and vica versa? I think we have to consider the good and the bad for all groups with this, not just the extreme "We hate magic!" or "Enchantes pwnz!" groups.
At least with the route in my prior post, some enchantes would ignore all of MR and would rely on seperate defense calculations(that is not to say that these enchantes would be easier to resist after the changes, just that they would rely on a new defense calculator that does not include MR of any kind in the defense check). These kinds of enchantes wouldn't hurt IF at all. Also, you would still have your mighty MR and BMR to help defend against enchantes like Desert's Maelstrom and the more powerful external-lifeform-stimulating enchantes.
Have to give and take, I say.
The one who is obsessed with power.. and who still has a long way to go.
DARKNESS51
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/28/2006 10:52 PM CDT
>What's one persons music is another person's noise.
Thats just arguing genre, music is music.
>Why not a different approach. Bards must actively "SING TO" a barbarian in order to affect them. Iayn said to not worry about technical difficulties, so that would be my solution. Unless a bard is actively trying to affect the barbarian, remove the barbarian from the equation.
Because, enchantes are an area of effect deal, and that's just redundant.
>I'll argue against any solution that makes magic easier to affect me. You keep your magic, I'll keep my fire.
>Keep your magic off me!
Its an enchante, which is different than regular magic. You can't possible group an enchante anywhere near a spell like fireball or something. It's always nice to look out for your fire, but if it bypassed your BMR, it wouldn't hit your fire anyway.
Thats just arguing genre, music is music.
>Why not a different approach. Bards must actively "SING TO" a barbarian in order to affect them. Iayn said to not worry about technical difficulties, so that would be my solution. Unless a bard is actively trying to affect the barbarian, remove the barbarian from the equation.
Because, enchantes are an area of effect deal, and that's just redundant.
>I'll argue against any solution that makes magic easier to affect me. You keep your magic, I'll keep my fire.
>Keep your magic off me!
Its an enchante, which is different than regular magic. You can't possible group an enchante anywhere near a spell like fireball or something. It's always nice to look out for your fire, but if it bypassed your BMR, it wouldn't hit your fire anyway.
BETHERINGTON
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/28/2006 10:53 PM CDT
No, your solution is to make barbarians use magic.
That's not the goal. The goal is to make them two guilds more compatible.
As long as you insist on making your magic affect a barbarian, that's not a compromise, that's saying magic must affect barbarians.
What's wrong with being able to affect everyone in the room except barbarians? Why isn't that a compromise? Your song would be just as useful for everyone else in the group, and you could extend it out to barbarians if you wish.
That's more of a compromise than saying "My magic will always affect you."
Niamara
4 out of 3 barbarians have trouble with fractions
That's not the goal. The goal is to make them two guilds more compatible.
As long as you insist on making your magic affect a barbarian, that's not a compromise, that's saying magic must affect barbarians.
What's wrong with being able to affect everyone in the room except barbarians? Why isn't that a compromise? Your song would be just as useful for everyone else in the group, and you could extend it out to barbarians if you wish.
That's more of a compromise than saying "My magic will always affect you."
Niamara
4 out of 3 barbarians have trouble with fractions
DWARB-POWER
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/28/2006 10:56 PM CDT
<<The problem is, what if you get a high circle Bard that can just totally sing over a Barbarian in a room.>>
Than because the Bard is vastly skilled enough, he can probably cause an inner fire hit to vastly lesser skilled Barbarian(s) in the room. The Barbarian would probably move to a different room.
<<I hardly find it fair to say "use our MR and BMR, but don't touch my IF!">>
Huh? It seems Niamara wanted to resist enchantes because they are mana oriented (the fact it has music in it is irrelevant, because mana is involved and Barbarians resist mana).
<<What about the Barbarians who want to hunt with Bards, and vica versa?>>
I think you are putting words into her mouth. She never said she didn't want to hunt with Bards. Some Bards can hunt very well with Barbarians. Others cannot. Are you expecting every possible Bard to hunt with every possible Barbarian in a perfect manner? Why?
<<I think we have to consider the good and the bad for all groups with this, not just the extreme "We hate magic!" or "Enchantes pwnz!" groups.>>
Well, there's the whole Barbarians disdain magic problem you have to overcome.
<<At least with the route in my prior post, some enchantes would ignore all of MR and would rely on seperate defense calculations(that is not to say that these enchantes would be easier to resist after the changes>>
How can you write "not just the extreme 'We hate magic!' or 'Enchantes pwnz!" and than follow up with that argument? Barbarians disdain magic and should resist it, just as they are resisting the beneficial, neutral and negative spells currently. How about just changing the way enchantes operate so they affect everyone on a person to person basis, so you don't have your enchantes collapsing when you try to start them up due to the collective magic resistance in the room?
- Simon
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Frontpage.html
"The problem with common sense, is that it is not so common."
Than because the Bard is vastly skilled enough, he can probably cause an inner fire hit to vastly lesser skilled Barbarian(s) in the room. The Barbarian would probably move to a different room.
<<I hardly find it fair to say "use our MR and BMR, but don't touch my IF!">>
Huh? It seems Niamara wanted to resist enchantes because they are mana oriented (the fact it has music in it is irrelevant, because mana is involved and Barbarians resist mana).
<<What about the Barbarians who want to hunt with Bards, and vica versa?>>
I think you are putting words into her mouth. She never said she didn't want to hunt with Bards. Some Bards can hunt very well with Barbarians. Others cannot. Are you expecting every possible Bard to hunt with every possible Barbarian in a perfect manner? Why?
<<I think we have to consider the good and the bad for all groups with this, not just the extreme "We hate magic!" or "Enchantes pwnz!" groups.>>
Well, there's the whole Barbarians disdain magic problem you have to overcome.
<<At least with the route in my prior post, some enchantes would ignore all of MR and would rely on seperate defense calculations(that is not to say that these enchantes would be easier to resist after the changes>>
How can you write "not just the extreme 'We hate magic!' or 'Enchantes pwnz!" and than follow up with that argument? Barbarians disdain magic and should resist it, just as they are resisting the beneficial, neutral and negative spells currently. How about just changing the way enchantes operate so they affect everyone on a person to person basis, so you don't have your enchantes collapsing when you try to start them up due to the collective magic resistance in the room?
- Simon
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Frontpage.html
"The problem with common sense, is that it is not so common."
VISHNIAE1
Re: Barbs, Bards, BMR and Enchantes
08/29/2006 01:15 AM CDT
As long as you insist on making your magic affect a barbarian, that's not a compromise, that's saying magic must affect barbarians.
What's wrong with being able to affect everyone in the room except barbarians? Why isn't that a compromise? Your song would be just as useful for everyone else in the group, and you could extend it out to barbarians if you wish.
That's more of a compromise than saying "My magic will always affect you."
Way I see it, It's impossible to expect an enchante to just ignore the barbarian. What you're saying is to let the enchante do its thing, but when it reaches the barb it suddenly decides "Na, I'm not touching this one?". The basis of enchante is that it's an area effect. It tries to effect an area, it cannot be expected to develop a brain and starts thinking who's the barb. Besides, if the bard is skilled enough to overcome the resistance, there's no reason his\her enchantes will decide to take the more comfortable route. Plus, what about offensive enchantes? do those have to be sung directly to the barb as well?
Enchantes are partly magical (I'll leave the how much magical debate out of this) and they have a purpose. Once they are activated they go out and try to acheive the purpose. A barbarian needs to resist the effect, just like anyone else, only he\she are better at it. The problem with BMR in my eyes is not the ability to resist the enchante, but the ability to tank it to everyone else making me as a bard inert at what I'm supposed to do well - help groups. Keep in mind that as a bard, I can only have one enchante going at once, so when I can't get even that started, a big part of what I could do is simply dead. I cannot stack one enchante somewhere else then get into the room or something of the sort.
That's why the solution I liked best so far is the one that puts enchante on a quasi TM model. Let the enchante spread from person to person so that each one resists it seperately.
As far as barbs actually being able to benefit from enchantes I'd say have a learnable feat that allows you to relax your resistance somewhat. Have it taught to the barb at some skill level should he choose to learn it. Hell, make it improve with circle, skill or anything else you think is appropriate. You still want to resist enchantes completely, don't learn the feat.
Also, I think bards should get at some point songs and melodies that are not infused with mana. Granted, they won't have the same punch, but they can be a neat tool. Just like a loud, fast song can affect the way you drive, or a slow quiet song can help you relax.
Siltoth
Stealer of Silvy's Hugs
Burhup says, "I still havn't thought of a good present for a theif"
You say to Burhup, "a Get out of jail free scroll"
What's wrong with being able to affect everyone in the room except barbarians? Why isn't that a compromise? Your song would be just as useful for everyone else in the group, and you could extend it out to barbarians if you wish.
That's more of a compromise than saying "My magic will always affect you."
Way I see it, It's impossible to expect an enchante to just ignore the barbarian. What you're saying is to let the enchante do its thing, but when it reaches the barb it suddenly decides "Na, I'm not touching this one?". The basis of enchante is that it's an area effect. It tries to effect an area, it cannot be expected to develop a brain and starts thinking who's the barb. Besides, if the bard is skilled enough to overcome the resistance, there's no reason his\her enchantes will decide to take the more comfortable route. Plus, what about offensive enchantes? do those have to be sung directly to the barb as well?
Enchantes are partly magical (I'll leave the how much magical debate out of this) and they have a purpose. Once they are activated they go out and try to acheive the purpose. A barbarian needs to resist the effect, just like anyone else, only he\she are better at it. The problem with BMR in my eyes is not the ability to resist the enchante, but the ability to tank it to everyone else making me as a bard inert at what I'm supposed to do well - help groups. Keep in mind that as a bard, I can only have one enchante going at once, so when I can't get even that started, a big part of what I could do is simply dead. I cannot stack one enchante somewhere else then get into the room or something of the sort.
That's why the solution I liked best so far is the one that puts enchante on a quasi TM model. Let the enchante spread from person to person so that each one resists it seperately.
As far as barbs actually being able to benefit from enchantes I'd say have a learnable feat that allows you to relax your resistance somewhat. Have it taught to the barb at some skill level should he choose to learn it. Hell, make it improve with circle, skill or anything else you think is appropriate. You still want to resist enchantes completely, don't learn the feat.
Also, I think bards should get at some point songs and melodies that are not infused with mana. Granted, they won't have the same punch, but they can be a neat tool. Just like a loud, fast song can affect the way you drive, or a slow quiet song can help you relax.
Siltoth
Stealer of Silvy's Hugs
Burhup says, "I still havn't thought of a good present for a theif"
You say to Burhup, "a Get out of jail free scroll"
