Status check please? How close are we to getting this ability?

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Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Forging Guru of M'Riss

<Not aware of any other supernatural contests that have a precedent for actually dealing damage. >

Since these supernatural contests (NOT A MAGIC CONTEST) are new with 3.0, no precedent's have been set. AND earthquake was intended to do damage for engaged foes, so this should SET the precedent.

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Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Forging Guru of M'Riss

Barbarians must leave combat to start meditations.

Meditations are the barbarian equivlent of utility spells.

No utility should be castable in combat.

Inner fire and barbarian abilities are NOT magic, they are supernatural. If they are considered magic, please fix all utility spells (all non TM spells I would say) to not be castable in combat.

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Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Forging Guru of M'Riss

>>No utility should be castable in combat.

No utility spells cause direct damage. All SUPERNATURAL abilities that cause damage use the TM contest. If you guys get to short cut that entirely, then why do I (also a supernatural tert) have to train TM? The system has put into place some rather easy standards to follow along, and if you start ignoring them to be a special snowflake than that doesnt make much sense to me. Barbs SHOULD get a way to train TM to be honest, and TM could probably use a name change.

Anyhow, my presumption is earthquake will be changed to not dealing damage and instead be some sort of debilitation effect as to avoid the entire mess.

Thank you Kodius. I just get frustrated with people trying to paint out supernatural skills and abilities as magic.

They are NOT MAGIC.. Stop trying to force us into that box.

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Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Forging Guru of M'Riss

>>They are NOT MAGIC.. Stop trying to force us into that box.

Forms, Meditations and Berserks are all superantural. There is a skill set of skills that DR 3.0 uses to fuel the effectiveness of supernatural powers. All of your other abilities work off skills from that skill set, as does every spell in the game. If suddenly you can replace one skill with another from a different family, then that just seems very unfair for those of us that are also supernatural terts and have to train a tert skill to 'hurt' things with our own abilities.

Frankly I'm having trouble even following the logic of Expertise applying to this contest on a RP level. Can you explain how mastery of weapons and weapon maneuvers(expressly mundane and non magical) allows someone to better cause an earth quake around them to hurt people (um...very NOT mundane).

Rewyn,

You continue to blow up about stuff you have no business talking about. You obviously have no idea what Earthquake is.

Earthquake does not cause an actual earthquake. It's supposed to be a series of melee attacks. Similar to how Rimefang works. Just like Tornado or Wildfire does not cause actual tornadoes or wildfires.

>>Yikes, can I get a supneratural slot costing aoe damaging ability that works off my primary skill set to?

Your AoE damaging abilities that works off your primary skillset comes from the magic skillset. AoE damaging abilities are not some kind of signature for the magic skillset, they just haven't been properly done in mundane form.

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Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.

-GM Abasha

And Whirlwind had already set the precedent on non-magic AoE damage anyway. Thanks Traim.

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Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.

-GM Abasha

Apologize on the RP element of how its expressed (Whirl of attacks vs upsetting of the earth). Either way its a supernatural ability, or else it would not cost you a supernatural skill slot. Despite that it ignores the supernatural skill set. If you can point out anywhere else in the system of 3.0 where this is the case then I would be welcome to hear it. I'm also just going to call crap on it for balance purposes. I would LOVE if my AoE powers worked off my primary skill set and if I did not have to train a tert skill to do so. If you strip the fanciful way of explaining things away it appears to me like this is a handy way for barbarians to get a pulsing AoE power and not have to worry about a pesky tert skill. The argument against it (OMG TM is MAGIC dummy, and we arnt MAGIC) seems silly given DR 3.0 went ahead and redefined almost everything in the "magic" skill set to being more vague and unspecified.

It would seem more balanced for TM to get renamed and opened to barbarians. Otherwise lets apply this logic to Rangers and Paladins (although frankly, I would not want that).

>>> My preference is for Earthquake to trigger pulsing AoE melee attacks using Expertise, melee skill or some combination of that. Expertise actually makes for a good contest for these types of things.

Sounds awesome. Thanks :)

All of your posts in the Barbarian folder are Paladin/Ranger driven. I realize they are also supernatural tert, but in many situations it really has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Barbarians are not using TM, and to continue to suggest it has become increasingly annoying.

Damaging AoE or pulsing damaging AoE has never been a monopoly of the supernatural skillset. Barbarians are offensive in nature, and so if a mundane guild was to get a pulsing damaging AoE ability then Barbarians would make a good case for it. Expertise is a guild-skill and is used to describe how Barbarians excel with weapons, so to make it seem like a skillcheck based off that skill for pulsing AoE damage is unreasonable shows a serious misunderstanding on how things work.

You keep bringing up skillsets, skillsets, and the fact that Barbarians are supernatural tert. Earthquake has nothing to do with skillsets, it's a mundane attack. AoE has nothing to do with skillsets. Pulsing damage AoE has nothing to do with skillsets.

Go to the Paladin folder and suggest an AoE defending ability that is supported by the Endurance skill and stop causing pointless arguments in the Barbarian folder for a change.

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Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.

-GM Abasha

As long as the contested skill that does damage, etc... is something that's learned in combat (thus avoiding the vocals esque lulz) then I don't have a clue why people are bothered by Barbs having a combat AOE skill that pulses.

Player of Ryken
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"Life expectancy would grow by leaps and bounds if green vegetables smelled as good as bacon." ~ Doug Larson

AIM - RykenDR

<<<All of your posts in the Barbarian folder are Paladin/Ranger driven>>>

So beyond old, I don't even respond anymore. Honestly I feel bad for Kodius that he has to keep re-explaining things to Rewyn.

- Buuwl

>>Rewyn: It is pretty bushleague in my book to go to another guild's folder and try to jam stuff they are getting or jam stuff they have. Non-TM AOE damage is seriously cool stuff. I thought earthquake was just whirlwind on steriods, which is pretty cool in my book. It also "feels" like a barbarian thing.

This isnt about my guild, not in the least. I want some consistency game wide and this to me seems to be breaking what I understood to be the paradigm (although its very early in 3.0. I recognize there is no official paradigm yet). A power fueled off Inner Fire is clearly supernatural, and I feel that right now all supernatural 'attacks' that mimic the current templates all use that skill set. Whirlwind being a verb and taking rt really felt akin to smite or backstab in that its a unique verb, and its opportunity cost is its RT and its a rider on a current mechanic (i.e attack). Earthquake is a cyclical auto attack without RT, and to me clearly falls into the cyclical spell template, even if its being explained otherwise. The fact it will potentially be the first power to break away from how every other ability functions and uses a primary skill set for a supernatural tert guild as another supernatural tert guild feels like you guys got to pass go and skip jail on your placement. I fully understand the RP 'logic' behind it, but it just feels very convenient for me and I don't think other guilds get that sort of treatment at the moment. Maybe they will with this however, and that is my greater worry. Should Rebuke (magical shield bash) work off Shield? Should stampede work off Outdoormanship? I dont see why bard screams are being converted to TM and not working off performance with this logic. I understand the logic is "well they work off the spell matrix" but the GM's choose to go that route when developing those 'supernatural abilities'...

Anyhow I wont post any further here. This is not a 'nerf barbs' or 'buff my guild'. Actually very much the opposite, I want my supernatural tert nature to be a deficit, the cross I have to bare. Earthquake as written just seems so clearly superior to anything similar that other supernatural tert guilds could get, short cuts the learning issues we have to effectively get the same results of a cyclical range limited 'spell' (ability).

Rewyn: I disagree, but not bad arguments. Take them to a general folder IMO.

Madigan

>>>Earthquake is a cyclical auto attack without RT, and to me clearly falls into the cyclical spell template, even if its being explained otherwise. The fact it will potentially be the first power to break away from how every other ability functions and uses a primary skill set for a supernatural tert guild as another supernatural tert guild feels like you guys got to pass go and skip jail on your placement.


So, even though it will be an attack, with a weapon...you want it to use the TM skill? Basically, it will be a whirlwind done automatically (from my understanding of it)....but let's use the TM skill instead of the weapon skill.


Gotcha.

>>This isnt about my guild, not in the least. I want some consistency game wide and this to me seems to be breaking what I understood to be the paradigm (although its very early in 3.0. I recognize there is no official paradigm yet). A power fueled off Inner Fire is clearly supernatural, and I feel that right now all supernatural 'attacks' that mimic the current templates all use that skill set. Whirlwind being a verb and taking rt really felt akin to smite or backstab in that its a unique verb, and its opportunity cost is its RT and its a rider on a current mechanic (i.e attack). Earthquake is a cyclical auto attack without RT, and to me clearly falls into the cyclical spell template, even if its being explained otherwise. The fact it will potentially be the first power to break away from how every other ability functions and uses a primary skill set for a supernatural tert guild as another supernatural tert guild feels like you guys got to pass go and skip jail on your placement. I fully understand the RP 'logic' behind it, but it just feels very convenient for me and I don't think other guilds get that sort of treatment at the moment. Maybe they will with this however, and that is my greater worry. Should Rebuke (magical shield bash) work off Shield? Should stampede work off Outdoormanship? I dont see why bard screams are being converted to TM and not working off performance with this logic. I understand the logic is "well they work off the spell matrix" but the GM's choose to go that route when developing those 'supernatural abilities'...

Few things about this.

First, precedent doesn't matter much. New stuff is cool as long as it's balanced properly: along with several barbs, two magic users and a Paladin have already commented they don't feel the the idea of the ability is unbalanced. Also, sometimes precedent is bad. See: Bards not having standard buffs for a long time because of precedent, Empaths being shoe-horned into nothing but healbots (the only reason death scars existed for a long time), among lots of other stuff.

Second, you're assuming a lot about how it will function, like the no RT, and forgetting many other things, like that it's going to be an expert level berserk (the barb equivalent of esoteric spells) that's duration and cost is still influenced by tertiary magic skills.

Third, we are drawing a clear distinction between combat skills and non-combat skills. bard screams should not be performance because of this. Should a magical shield Bash's attack skill be modified by shield ranks? Sure, why not! Should Stampede work off Outdoorsmanship? No, because it's a magic attack with debilitation effects, though I have no conceptual problem with Rangers getting some sort of disabling beseech modified by scouting if their system ever gets the reboot it deserves (but not the reboot it needs right now).

I think we've gone about as far as we can go with non-magical stuff, a bit tired of them just being a standard array of buffs. I'd love to see more new stuff that doesn't work off magic, even for the magic-using guilds.

tl ; dr Arguing something based solely on precedent has made for poor precedent in the past.

>This has a certain poetry to it. I'm having trouble lately getting my head into my Barbarian, and this helped.

When not hosing Madigan down in his "party dungeon," Squanto can be quite the poet.

>>So, even though it will be an attack, with a weapon...you want it to use the TM skill? Basically, it will be a whirlwind done automatically (from my understanding of it)....but let's use the TM skill instead of the weapon skill.

He's looking at it from a skill-set standpoint instead of a mundane vs. supernatural standpoint. He's failing to understand that just because all other AoE pulsing damage abilities are magical (or cyclics) doesn't mean the supernatural skill-set holds a monopoly on those types of attacks. As a result, he thinks that Earthquake (despite being mundane) should use the TM skill, and feels that Barbarians are escaping mechanics/design rules even though there was never such in place. I see his point but it's flawed.

There is never any reason to give a magic primary guild a mundane attack such as that, because a mundane attack would be suited for a weapon skill instead of TM. That's why all damaging cyclics/AoE pulsing damage abilities currently run through the supernatural/magic skillset.

Paladins and Rangers are both weapon secondary and I think it would be fitting for them to get a piece of some unique attacks (that are only ran through the mana/magic system) in mundane fashion, so that they can be based off weapon skills (and maybe armor/shield for Paladins).

/end thread

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Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.

-GM Abasha

Rewyn - Asking for Earthquake to be TM is like saying Smite should use Mana. If you'd like a precedent for a non magical-supernatural non-mundane attack look closer to home. There's absolutely no reason to be getting upset about Barbarians getting a very cool new toy. Spend the mental energy in suggestions and ideas for Paladin stuffs.

More to topic - Expertise driven Weapon based AOE attacks sounds flippin' awesome. I just hope some love is shown to the pole ranged weapons and they work in their engagement ranges as Whirl used to. I'd personally even be thrilled to see it use both weapons assuming the Barbarian is holding 1 handers, might be an solid reason to work that offhand weapon. As for cost, I genuinely hope its not too terribly expensive that you chaps don't have to forsake most other abilities to muster the fire for it, but that'll be something we'll have to wait and see.

Samsaren