I mean, most barbs can't use a partial gamut of their normal buffs comfortably.

Erm to make something I said productive(maybe) I see Earthquake as a good berserk in design because (in my perception) it imitates a combat trance where your actions are occurring without you having to consiously think about them because you are so into the battle and one with your weapons. I like that concept.

Not too sure what you are getting at, but I do think that how players interpret the abilities is up to the individual to a point. I can say that it is in keeping with how real life berserks are recorded, entering into a mindless rage being a part of it, and some berserks besides Earthquake can definitely be interpreted that way if the individual wants to RP it that way in my opinion. The old berserks may have forced it too hard but research berserks and battle trances and you can see where a lot of the theory behind Barbarians 2.0 came from and I don't think it is out of line to RP that way in Barbarians 3.0, even though with how the abilities are constructed now it is more open for interpretation.

Barbarians (and thieves and traders...) need a way to double up on their attacks in order to reach some kind of parity with everyone else imo.

When I do some quick napkin math it makes me sad for those three guilds.
Guild: potential simultaneous damage outputs
necromancers: weapon + tm + zombie + mudman
clerics, bards and wm's: weapon + tm + cyclic damage
moon mages: weapon + tm + cyclic damage (night only)
rangers and paladins: weapon + tm
empaths: guardian + manipulated enemy
barbs, thieves and traders: weapon + ?

>>Whirlwind + offhand

Is that sustainable? I was under the impression that whirlwind was a sometimes move because it carried bad balance penalties.

I think even if it does that my points stands that those three guild's need another damage output to get closer to parity, earthquake + whirlwind seems like perfect fit for moving barbarians up near the top of that list I wrote up.

>>Additional weapon outputs are to offset having a low damage output in weapons. Barbs being weapon primary don't need additional damage sources

This doesn't make sense to me. Sure they learn their ranks faster but rank for rank their weapons do the same damage for them as my character's do, except my guys have cyclic damage and spells they can target while attacking with regular weapons and zombies and mudmen. I feel like if you paired one of my characters up with a barb, thief or trader who hunted the in the same area that my guy would out dps them easily, but maybe I'm somehow mistaken on that.

If I'm not wrong about it though I feel like abilities like Earthquake are the right way to bring those three guilds up a notch.

>>Not to mention, it sets a great precedent for AOE XMundane. I am thinking Ring of Spears using shield skill is going to be in my next top ten list.

I have no balance issue with your suggestion assuming I understand it (cyclic spell that uses shield skill as the skill check)?, but that doesn't make much sense to me? Shield bash should absolutely become A Thing and Paladins should have some improved version of it, maybe even a shield-aoe like whirlwind, though I find the mental image of a Paladin becoming a constantly-whirling shield of doom very thematically weird.

Actually never mind, that's totally hilarious. I'm on board, sign me up.

>>But in order to take advantage of, say, RoS or SLS Zombies or such, a character must invest in Discipline and Wis/Int. Barbs don't have to do that, and as such, their 'total output dps' isn't divided between physical weapons and magic spells.

Mages will have more TDPs by virtue of having more skills to train. I know some people swear up and down that it's not true, but it's common sense: TM and Utility and Arcana versus none of these means more TDPs. Those are also the experience stats, which is incentive enough to keep them high.

Someone mentioned dual-whirl. This is a command AOE, not damage over time like Ring of Spears or Telekinetic Storm or a Risen. It's also a shadow of what it was in 2.0, not even really worth using for experience gain at this point.

I don't feel there is any sort of dps disparity though. While maybe technically true, there is no arms-race need for barbs to get a DOT berserk using expertise. I just think it's really cool and wanna see it, don't care much about GvG arguments and don't see it being some sort of game-changer for PvP given inner fire restrictions and it's probable cost.

>> a character must invest in Discipline and Wis/Int

EVERYONE must invest in these, Discipline is still one of the most useful stats in the game and a tremendous amount of spells are SvW. When IF gets linked to a stat, it will most likely be Discipline and it will be as valuable to us as it is for Thieves.

>> Mages will have more TDPs by virtue of having more skills to train. I know some people swear up and down that it's not true, but it's common sense: TM and Utility and Arcana versus none of these means more TDPs. Those are also the experience stats, which is incentive enough to keep them high.

This has always been true by virtue of that Barbs have to go out of their way to make up that deficit, though it's closer now than it's ever been in the past with Masteries and Defending.

>> It's also a shadow of what it was in 2.0, not even really worth using for experience gain at this point.

I wouldn't say that.

---

IM: Dannyboy00001111

"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."

Barbs do not invest in Disc/Wis/Int to the same extent that mages must. By all means though, high circle barbs, please post your stats to indicate how this is incorrect; I would be extremely surprised to see a barb with mentals comparable to the mentals of a mage. Similarly, magic primes or secondaries probably don't have the same physicals as barbarians this is not the same as saying 'Warmies/Clerics/Bards/Necromancers must train strength/agility/stamina'.

And as for this 'mages have more TDPs by product of having more magic skills; this is a laughable claim. Barbs have had access to the largest skillset in the game for an extremely long time, while mages up until recently were training a skillset with only 5 skills. Most barbarians have trained an impressive array of of weapons as well; at the very least, most barbs will train enough weapons to offset not having access to TM, Utility, and Arcana. This claim is almost annoying at this point in the game; barbs don't have access to 3 of the magic skills, and will easily train more than 3 weapons to mitigate the loss of TDPs this represents over a mage. My barb trains Poles, HE, HB, Brawling, Bows, Offhand, and LT, and I consider this extremely lazy Barbarianism.

Strength : 100 Reflex : 100
Agility : 100 Charisma : 94
Discipline : 100 Wisdom : 92
Intelligence : 95 Stamina : 100

Intel/Wisdom/Disc were more than 10 points above all his other stats for most of his career. Did I mention hes Rakash?(+1 +2)

>> Barbs do not invest in Disc/Wis/Int to the same extent that mages must.

A mage is now required to be near as proficient in their capacity for defending as they are in attacking, like everyone else. This requires balance.

>> And as for this 'mages have more TDPs by product of having more magic skills; this is a laughable claim. Barbs have had access to the largest skillset in the game for an extremely long time, while mages up until recently were training a skillset with only 5 skills.

5 skills that could be scripted indefinitely at no real cost to the user. Let's not even go into that the TM caps on critters were much higher than weapon caps, and that PM and magic skills had no real cap.

>> Most barbarians have trained an impressive array of of weapons as well

That is a very recent trend; training that many weapons was impossible to do efficiently in the old system. You also fail to mention that mages can also train more weapons, and more efficiently at that(slower drain rate means higher effective bandwidth in the huge weapons skillset). And that's neglecting armors which are one of the best TDP holes in the game.

>> most barbs will train enough weapons to offset not having access to TM, Utility, and Arcana.

Some people prefer to do other things besides 'training to keep up with guild xyz'. This would constitute a typical Barbarian. It's not even worth mentioning how ridiculously far ahead of the game people like Galain/Tenion/Trop/Aurica were in their respective day and age.

>> My barb trains Poles, HE, HB, Brawling, Bows, Offhand, and LT, and I consider this extremely lazy Barbarianism.

By my standards, that's lazy for any guild. But that's not really the issue. Like I said, it's closer now than it's ever been before. When Traders and Thieves can train magicks as well, it will be even closer.

---

IM: Dannyboy00001111

"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."

<<By all means though, high circle barbs, please post your stats to indicate how this is incorrect; I would be extremely surprised to see a barb with mentals comparable to the mentals of a mage.>>

I think you'd be really surprised how incorrect you are about a great many things. I also think you are going straight into the equine cemetery with the barb versus mage TDP talk.

- Buuwl

With due respect, posting your stats when they're all at 100, or within 10 pts of 100 isn't exactly demonstrative of how your barb was advanced; most barbs I have spoken to on stat placement have strength, agility, and stamina ahead of Disc/Wis/Int as they are leveling. But impressive nevertheless!

I find this to be a really funny double standard; Mages can 'train indefinitely all magics (TM?) but Barbs cannot sit in combat and indefinitely train a number of weapons? Mages having access to training magic at a primary rate gives them more TDPs, but Barbs training Weapons at a primary rate doesn't give them more TDPs?

I understand that being able to train a wider number of skills simultaneously means you can keep more skills moving, but faster skill drainage means more ranks, means more TDPs as well. Barbarian and Paladin skillsets in particular mean with weapon and armor rotations, it's quite easy to keep a large number of skills moving; I'm surprised to hear anyone claim that barbs got a crappy deal with TDP gen.

>>I'm surprised to hear anyone claim that barbs got a crappy deal with TDP gen.

Before I even bother breaking it down for you, are you talking about 2.0 or 3.0? In 3.0, I suppose there may be the tiniest advantage but it's really not worth talking about.

In 2.0 there was a noticable tdp imbalance.

---

Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.

-GM Abasha

>>With due respect, posting your stats when they're all at 100, or within 10 pts of 100 isn't exactly demonstrative of how your barb was advanced

But you said:

>>Barbs do not invest in Disc/Wis/Int to the same extent that mages must. By all means though, high circle barbs, please post your stats to indicate how this is incorrect; I would be extremely surprised to see a barb with mentals comparable to the mentals of a mage.

So, what's with the double standard all of a sudden? Just admit you're wrong and move along.

---

"If swords ever cross, the Barbarian shall be the one left standing." - Guild Leader Agonar

>>Scripting magic, out of combat, you can keep 10 skills going without much effort, without any risk, and without any caps, so you never run out of mana-node-spawns, never get injured, never cap out your spells, etc.<<

I wouldn't touch the rest of this thread if you paid me, but it's only 7 skills you can work out of combat without risk. Not much of an advantage since scripting magic out of combat is just about the least efficient way that you could train a character.

This is so dead. And so forehead slapping dumb if you've ever tried to train a mage and barb both past 800 ranks in your primaries. All the grass is green guys!

>>And no moving goal posts about efficiency. This was a post about scripting outside combat vs. in combat for TDP generation, and barbs lack the primary out-of-combat skills to script (i.e. most magics) that are such huge benefits to TDPs.<<

Uh...at least five of the skills on your list have nothing to do with magic, for some of the rest barbs have their own analogs now, Sorcery is never risk free if you're casting, and if your post is about TDP farming in combat vs out of combat then efficiency is relevant - how could it not be?

I'm with Traim - this discussion is dumb and has been done to death.

>>With due respect, posting your stats when they're all at 100, or within 10 pts of 100 isn't exactly demonstrative of how your barb was advanced;

Here is my stat story. I trained everything fairly evenly to 30 in each stat, and from then on I had 10+ in intell and Wisdom as my highest stats. Up until around 60-70 Discipline took the lead and from there until 150th it was Discipline, Intell, Wisdom. Sure I don't think every barb does this (obviously you don't). But I think it's smarter in the long run if you would.

>>And as for this 'mages have more TDPs by product of having more magic skills; this is a laughable claim.

I never really bothered to care about this honestly, but now that barbs have supernatural skills moving, it makes a noticeable difference in my TDP gain and over time could make for a huge difference. So I would say there WAS an imbalance but 3.0 fixed that at least for Barbs.


Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons

My original claim was that most barbs have physicals ahead of mentals, which is why they don't have to offset the reduced physical damage output. Two barbarians posted that they have all stats trained to ~100, save a few at 90, which I don't feel really disputes my claim, although one of them said they kept mentals above their physicals (I think he said disc?). Codiax (I think that's codiax?) just posted his stat training regiment, which directly contradicts my claim, so there's at least one barb out there who moves mentals more than physicals, but I highly doubt this is the norm.

But as I said, since all but now two posters responded with ad hominems, I'm letting this drop.

>>just posted his stat training regiment, which directly contradicts my claim, so there's at least one barb out there who moves mentals more than physicals, but I highly doubt this is the norm.

I will say that one thing was the norm, or I think it was. That is Discipline, I think it was pretty standard for a barb to have discipline as their highest stat and that was directly related to the use of Dances. Int and Wisdom were probably just whatever the person decided to train.

Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons