I agree. Balance and suitability on a weapon are pretty useless at the top end. The difference between a mirror axe and a rare metal sterak axe is very, very noticeable.

Your body tightens as you draw your arms together in a sinuous, flowing motion, mimicking the form you were trained to adopt for this roar of warning.
Kodius fled to the west in terror!
Roundtime: 2 sec.

<<I am going to have to agree with Codiax on this one. I really do not understand why we are lacking in an ability like this. If any guild should get the premier weapon stat boost, it should be this guild here. I kind of prefer this being a meditation, though, like honing your mind to the weapon. I'd be willing to look the other way if we can roar thunderbolts out of our posteriors with CL like affect, though. Just sayin'!
>>

Here here, I 4th or 5th the vote.

- Buuwl

Bards have it because a previous Bard GM came up with a cool spell idea and coded it, I don't think the GvG's gonna help.

I have suggested giving Barbarians something similar in the past, and it definitely seems in-theme. Making this the function of Tsunami berserk seems good to me.

>>I don't care about GvG, some people look at it like a sin but that is pretty much what everything in the game is based on. It is pretty pointless to try and 'balance' a game without GvG. seriously. Leilond just posted about barb effect times vs Bard effect times, that is GvG. At this point GvG is a thing of the past.

Guild versus guild testing perfectly valid and can be quite invaluable. I'm honestly not sure how we'd precisely measure the effects of some stuff, like the strength of fear barriers or fear effects, without PvP cross-guild comparisons.

I'm more referring to broad questions about why some guilds have abilities and others don't, and the justifications for such.

>>I think it be better to translate those benefits into something else frankly, like additional side effects to attacks and what have you. Flat bonuses are a bit stale even if they are SUPER effective.

I enjoy diversity of effects, but Barbarians are running out of other options if the idea is to make Tsunami another expensive, offense-oriented berserk. We already have melee OF, ranged OF, strength boost, agility boost, base damage (of attack) boost, balance boost, and Tsunami's balance/suitability boost.

The only factor of determining a weapon attack's "power" we cannot yet influence is the weapon's base stats. We can even influence the RNG to some extent, since Tsunami decreases chance of critical miss.

>>Maybe if it had a flat effect based off the type of weapon and not off the quality of the weapon that be nicer (meaning less effect on store bought weapons but better effects on forged by virtue of it no longer being scaled and being the average of the old boosts).

At the next Barbarian guild meeting:

Kodius says to Rewyn, "Great idea! We'll make it so Tsunami works better and it will be much improved!"

Rewyn says, "Excelle... wait, what about RUE???"

---

Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.

-GM Abasha

I don't get why this is such a complicated concept. Barbarians are the masters of weapons; that said, they ought to be able to exploit a weapon to its fullest potential, greater than anyone. It's pretty much all they have that can influence damage (still speaking about only weapons here). Barbarians are raw warriors who utilize weapons and intimidation. We literally have nothing else that can deal out damage--no fireballs, lightning, etc. Every guild can use weapons, and most have some ability that can improve the use of them. We just ought to be able to use them best. So if there are buffs that improve balance and suitedness for one guild, and some that improve damage stats, we ought to have the premier buff that improves all those stats.

Squanto and his fully-grown raccoon, Zinaca.

>>Isn't expertise going to be the Barbarian thing that does this kind of stuff? Bonus damage and other combat goodness.

I have high hopes for it, but it still will be all based on the weapons we use I think. So having a better appraisal will still be key...I could be wrong.

Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons

>>I don't get why this is such a complicated concept. Barbarians are the masters of weapons; that said, they ought to be able to exploit a weapon to its fullest potential, greater than anyone. It's pretty much all they have that can influence damage (still speaking about only weapons here). Barbarians are raw warriors who utilize weapons and intimidation. We literally have nothing else that can deal out damage--no fireballs, lightning, etc. Every guild can use weapons, and most have some ability that can improve the use of them. We just ought to be able to use them best. So if there are buffs that improve balance and suitedness for one guild, and some that improve damage stats, we ought to have the premier buff that improves all those stats.

I'm not disagreeing with you in principle but practice. This type of mindset (our buffs should be better) is not in line with 3.0. Skill set placement does not lend itself to buff potency. If two guilds have the same type of buff and its within SoI, then that acts as the frame work as to the buff, caps, etc. A thief does not have a better 'stealth' buff than a moon mage for instance.

What skill set tier seems to do is underline the amount of buffs you have available within a given arena and the general focus of your guild which seems to coincide loosely with your skill sets and SoI to a degree.

I believe the benefit of skill set placement is inherit in that you have learning bonuses there, if this was to be doubled with buff potency then we start having rather exaggerated differences. The general feeling has been over time that we are moving somewhat away from skill set based bonuses to the idea of feats and other systems based off ranks (example here is we have moved away from Stance Points being guild based to being skill based).

Again, please don't take this as a GvG or a wish to not see you guys get awesome things, but the general idea that 'we excel at this therefore our version of a similar tool should be inheritly superior' does not seem like one that is really support in 3.0 supernatural methodology. I think barbarians given their general factor should have the vast majority of their abilities focused around combat (which I think is the case) and thus have the most options as to how they want to approach a situation. Some of those options right now can/are likely not great, while others are clearly superior. I believe that should be resolved. However if those options are also clearly superior to other guilds then that brings about an issue I feel. This goes in all directions (not just vs barbs). If any guild had a power which for the same slot costs was out performing a very similar power at the same slot cost, I think that would be an oversight.

I think with some of the new weapon modifications spells being introduced the older methodologies (buffing balance/suitability) in general needs a review because it is rather lack luster unless the benefit would be enough to make a significant impact on your TO HIT (which unless I feel you are at a particular offense range and agility range vs your opponent, does not seem significant enough to cast over other buffs). I think when you get into adjusting raw stats of a weapons it becomes a bit hard to balance the effects (ergo the scaling issue) vs adding flat amounts of elemental damage which is likely easier to balance (presuming elemental damage is not increased by attributes, such as strength).

It is really an interesting problem I think and maybe a bit more complex than improving the effect or even adding to it. I'd be really in favor of the current balance/suited effects being scraped in lieu of something else; maybe enhanced damage, although I do think expertise based combos are going to help a great deal with damage but its a bit early to say that.

In any case, I don't think anyone really likes Tsunami as is or is vocalizing against it being changed.

>I also think it should be noted all the other guilds except thieves can train sorcery and utilize a myriad of buffs in that manner

If by "myriad" you mean 2, then sure.

>>I also think it should be noted all the other guilds except thieves can train sorcery and utilize a myriad of buffs in that manner. We don't have access to this.

Also, traders can't access sorcery.

Also, sorcery carries the risk of blowing off arms, so there's a trade off.

Also, if you want to play with other guilds' magic, maybe barbarian isn't the guild for you?

Also, how does noting an already-well-known game system / design choice contribute to the conversation about barbs and weapon buffs? I don't think a single person in this thread is suggesting that barbs DON'T get more interesting weapon buffing capabilities.

>>Rewyn said <<blah blah blah>>>

we all saw Rewyn's post. Don't know why you felt like you needed to let everyone on the boards know you don't care what he said.

>>larp

You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

>>I also think it should be noted all the other guilds except thieves can train sorcery and utilize a myriad of buffs in that manner. We don't have access to this.

Apples and Oranges. Your buffs cant be dispelled or stolen because they are decidely 'not magic', and Sorcery(which is decidely 'magic') has a great number of 'cons' listed with it that make it a detractor. I'll grant you that it gives magic users more options with their spell slots, however I'm not sure what this adds to the argument(if there is one here). If all things are balanced against spell slot cost, that means magic users whom train sorcery (or dont if they stay within the same mana type) have access to other guild spells to a degree. It brings up an argument regarding stacked power (i.e Warrior Mages casting Resonance along with Ignite=gg) but by and large it allows for some flexibility against guild identity. That is a con for Barbs (your abilities are all very much combat, and thus you do not have the current ability to stray as well outside your guild identity) and I do not know where it would lie within the realm of balance to give them some ability to stray.

Maybe Thieves and Barbarians should have some common pool of 'practices' that they can both pick up that provide aspect into more utility types of powers, or maybe there should be some aspect of sorcery applied to inner fire/inner silence that allows barbarians and thieves to utilize one anothers powers (khri, forms, etc) presuming that their systems are set up to be compatible. I really would not expect this to happen however, but its a thought.

>>No, please no. I actually despise the scroll system in that it allows too much usage of other guild's spells. And it doesn't make sense for Barbarians to do something like that.

Right, thats why I said 'unlikely to happen'. I agree with you, I was just speaking(typing) out loud as to how something similar could exist.

Right now I feel that barbarians in terms of a system are in a good place, although individual powers or gaps need review. Your a supernatural tert with a unique system with some pros and cons. You dont have cambrinth or sorcery or dispells, but neither can you be dispelled or worry about room mana and the such. You'll never have to deal with a cleric stealing all your spells, etc etc.

Its a new system so maybe over time things will seem a bit clearer. I think something for everyone to remember with the changes now to all supernatural systems and more guilds waiting to come on board (Thieves, Traders) that we are early into 3.0 and we dont see all the pieces yet, so its hard to really reflect on balance right now other than clear violators (like the absolute need for diminishing returns on crowd control and limiting those powers to X seconds or duration).

On a personal note, I'm also not in love with the scroll system. I like guild spells being part of a guilds identity. This is very old school thinking and something that I have trouble giving up. That said I don't see how I wont take advantage of this, but it does miff me to know someone else has access to my spells even if they have to jump through hoops.

I would prefer if sorcery had a subset of unique spells based on the mana type (not guild spells) that you could access via scrolls instead of existing spells. Maybe about 5-6 based per mana type.

A synergy-type system would be kinda neat. As long as it doesn't lead into dual-classing.

Also not a fan of Sorcery based off my (limited) knowledge of what is possible and perceptions of what it could amount to.

---

IM: Dannyboy00001111

"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."

>>Also not a fan of Sorcery based off my (limited) knowledge of what is possible and perceptions of what it could amount to.

Having people access other guild spells via Sorcery is only a threat if you believe guilds have a severely limited number of spells that are useful. I don't believe this to be the case.

---

The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).

>>>> Having people access other guild spells via Sorcery is only a threat if you believe guilds have a severely limited number of spells that are useful. I don't believe this to be the case.

I don't follow, the inverse is true. The more useful spells every guild has, the more a threat sorcery becomes.

<<Personally I'd prefer it if most guild's spells became signature; all the cross-guild casting is kind of corny IMO.

+1. I agree. Although, it sure limits some nice PvP stuff.

Madigan

I don't want a balance/suitability enhancement. They really don't do enough to make them worth buffing. The only reason I grabbed Tsunami was it was the only ability I thought I might use to get to the higher level abilities. I want the bard style buff that boosts the real damage stats of the weapon two levels to make them kill faster.

Your body tightens as you draw your arms together in a sinuous, flowing motion, mimicking the form you were trained to adopt for this roar of warning.
Kodius fled to the west in terror!
Roundtime: 2 sec.

<<I want the bard style buff that boosts the real damage stats of the weapon two levels to make them kill faster.>>

The bards have all gone quiet, I think they know how good they have it all of a sudden.

- Buuwl

<< Agreed, but Barbs should get an inherent (and usable) bonus for being weapon primary, sort of like how Paladins get lower hindrance in Plate just for being Armor primes, or how Survival primes get lower stealth hindrance and (2/3rds of them) get a large bonus to skills just from skillset placement(do they even respect caps?), or how Lore primes get 2 careers and however many extra hobbies just by being Lore primes. Weapons should also reap some kind of inherent (usable) benefit not counting planned Expertise since other guilds also get a skill-set specific skill. Right now 2 people with the same amount of weapon perform identically regardless of skill-set placement, and this can only be said about weapon prime which is pure garbage IMO.

+1

I would like to see a bonus akin to the 2 second RT (or is it 1?) for stealth actions, Survival Primes have. Lower minimum RT for weapons achieved at X ranks and Y Physical Stats, for Weapon Prime.

Railz