Previous
I have to say after moving to stompers and tuskies I am now definitely getting use out of the berserks. Seems to be a hunting area design thing. Although, it would be cool if more inner fire be gained for killing creatures that are really challenging for you to kill.
GREIFENTHAL
BEVERAGEK
Re: Berserks and IF
02/10/2013 06:25 PM CST
>>Although, it would be cool if more inner fire be gained for killing creatures that are really challenging for you to kill.
IIRC didn't Kodius say that Expertise would introduce combos and such you could follow in order to gain IF? I'm thinking that will help in cases where you can't always rely on a steady flow of creature death. (hard boss creatures, PvP, etc)
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
IIRC didn't Kodius say that Expertise would introduce combos and such you could follow in order to gain IF? I'm thinking that will help in cases where you can't always rely on a steady flow of creature death. (hard boss creatures, PvP, etc)
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Berserks and IF
02/11/2013 05:25 AM CST
>>Not nitpicking on you, Malkien, but if you have to backtrain to utilize a zerk, doesn't that go against the typical use of a zerk? I know at this point we see the issue may very well be slow kill-rate of intercessors and high-level scaling issues, but you should never have to go down the critter ladder to get the most out of a berserk, IMO. I get your gist though; you're saying to see it last long enough, kill small things to build up your IF pool.
>>No, that solution is pretty damn unacceptable and flat out stupid. When an MU has to step down to refill their mana above 1/3rd just to use their abilities to their fullest I'll go with it, but they don't. They regen passively to 100%. I'm not going to back train weaponry for an hour just to get to use my abilities.
Apologies, I was not actually suggesting you do that, just to use berserks. Of course at-level hunting should be your priority, and of course you should be able to use berserks while hunting.
My point was that intercessors seem to be the problem, not berserks themselves. For the 85-90% of the population not hunting intercessors, berserk use is perfectly viable. Having said that, after some thorough testing, factors like berserk costs apparently being highly variable (up to something like 150 of normal cost?!) make them much less useful then I had originally imagined them. But they're still not unusable by any means for critters outside of intercessors.
>>No, that solution is pretty damn unacceptable and flat out stupid. When an MU has to step down to refill their mana above 1/3rd just to use their abilities to their fullest I'll go with it, but they don't. They regen passively to 100%. I'm not going to back train weaponry for an hour just to get to use my abilities.
Apologies, I was not actually suggesting you do that, just to use berserks. Of course at-level hunting should be your priority, and of course you should be able to use berserks while hunting.
My point was that intercessors seem to be the problem, not berserks themselves. For the 85-90% of the population not hunting intercessors, berserk use is perfectly viable. Having said that, after some thorough testing, factors like berserk costs apparently being highly variable (up to something like 150 of normal cost?!) make them much less useful then I had originally imagined them. But they're still not unusable by any means for critters outside of intercessors.
PENDUS
Re: Berserks and IF
02/11/2013 10:15 AM CST
That's also the issue, even not killing anything Tornado was costing me more for upkeep than three forms combined. As soon as the berserk dropped my IF was passively regenerating by itself to 1/3. And from what I've talked with with people like Squanto, berserks just tank IF usage at the high end. It's possible it's a scaling issue and a kill rate issue with intercessors, but it's also nearly impossible to test something at level when there's only one at level critter to try on. Assassins and elders really don't teach me anything to really go on.
Your body tightens as you draw your arms together in a sinuous, flowing motion, mimicking the form you were trained to adopt for this roar of warning.
Kodius fled to the west in terror!
Roundtime: 2 sec.
Your body tightens as you draw your arms together in a sinuous, flowing motion, mimicking the form you were trained to adopt for this roar of warning.
Kodius fled to the west in terror!
Roundtime: 2 sec.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Berserks and IF
02/11/2013 11:49 AM CST
>>That's also the issue, even not killing anything Tornado was costing me more for upkeep than three forms combined. As soon as the berserk dropped my IF was passively regenerating by itself to 1/3. And from what I've talked with with people like Squanto, berserks just tank IF usage at the high end. It's possible it's a scaling issue and a kill rate issue with intercessors, but it's also nearly impossible to test something at level when there's only one at level critter to try on. Assassins and elders really don't teach me anything to really go on.
Squanto's berserks cost as much as mine do, at least for the couple we tested. The same was not true of dances and forms of similar difficulty levels, as their costs scaled downwards very clearly.
I feel there's a problem with the way some of our abilities scale, though I want to get a very clear impression of how each ability costs and how they scale before posting anything. I'm not even sure berserk cost scales at all; if someone has a lowbie barbarian, I'd love to test this.
I am getting the impression berserks are meant to be the barb equivalent of cyclical spells, in that they provide powerful effects but are not meant to be used all the time or forever. The format and scaling of inner fire usage could make their non-scaling and variable cost (if they are both non-scaling and variable) a large issue at high levels though, especially when you start stacking four or more forms on top.
Squanto's berserks cost as much as mine do, at least for the couple we tested. The same was not true of dances and forms of similar difficulty levels, as their costs scaled downwards very clearly.
I feel there's a problem with the way some of our abilities scale, though I want to get a very clear impression of how each ability costs and how they scale before posting anything. I'm not even sure berserk cost scales at all; if someone has a lowbie barbarian, I'd love to test this.
I am getting the impression berserks are meant to be the barb equivalent of cyclical spells, in that they provide powerful effects but are not meant to be used all the time or forever. The format and scaling of inner fire usage could make their non-scaling and variable cost (if they are both non-scaling and variable) a large issue at high levels though, especially when you start stacking four or more forms on top.
VAWN
Re: Berserks and IF
02/11/2013 04:47 PM CST
>>I'm not even sure berserk cost scales at all; if someone has a lowbie barbarian, I'd love to test this.
How low do you want? I have one at 15th and one at 60ish. Catch is they're both in Plat, if that matters.
~The Prydaen~
How low do you want? I have one at 15th and one at 60ish. Catch is they're both in Plat, if that matters.
~The Prydaen~
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Berserks and IF
02/11/2013 04:59 PM CST
>>How low do you want? I have one at 15th and one at 60ish. Catch is they're both in Plat, if that matters.
I don't imagine it would matter, being in Plat. Can you run a quick test for me?
1: Remove all buffs, let inner fire regen to passive cap (26/80).
2: Use avalanche berserk.
3: Meditate power and record how many bars of IF it cost.
I'd very much appreciate the data from both characters. If you're willing, I'll need you to test a whole slew of our abilities. I want to chart minimum and maximum inner fire "costs" for each ability, and to do that I need a very low data point.
AIM is DiminishedSeraph.
I don't imagine it would matter, being in Plat. Can you run a quick test for me?
1: Remove all buffs, let inner fire regen to passive cap (26/80).
2: Use avalanche berserk.
3: Meditate power and record how many bars of IF it cost.
I'd very much appreciate the data from both characters. If you're willing, I'll need you to test a whole slew of our abilities. I want to chart minimum and maximum inner fire "costs" for each ability, and to do that I need a very low data point.
AIM is DiminishedSeraph.
VAWN
Re: Berserks and IF
02/11/2013 06:18 PM CST
I ran each test 5 times to check for fluctuations. Let me know if you want a larger sample size.
Test #1: 15th circle, 95 IF.
Avalanche burned 8 bars to 18/26.
Test #2: 56th circle (not as close to 60 as I remembered. Boo.), 167 IF.
Avalanche burned 6 bars to 20/26.
It should be noted that during test #2, I got one aberrant result where Avalanche only cost 1(!) bar. After popping Power again to double-check, I was then down two. I could not reproduce this again after 10 more tries. I'm thinking I did something wrong, but figured I'd report it none the less.
>>If you're willing, I'll need you to test a whole slew of our abilities.
More than willing. It's nice to be able to contribute something to my guild of choice. Lots of book smarts gathered over the years. Too small for any high-level contributions or tests. My AIM is Ocmaitu. I tried to hit you up, but you were offline/hidden and not accepting offlines.
~The Prydaen~
Test #1: 15th circle, 95 IF.
Avalanche burned 8 bars to 18/26.
Test #2: 56th circle (not as close to 60 as I remembered. Boo.), 167 IF.
Avalanche burned 6 bars to 20/26.
It should be noted that during test #2, I got one aberrant result where Avalanche only cost 1(!) bar. After popping Power again to double-check, I was then down two. I could not reproduce this again after 10 more tries. I'm thinking I did something wrong, but figured I'd report it none the less.
>>If you're willing, I'll need you to test a whole slew of our abilities.
More than willing. It's nice to be able to contribute something to my guild of choice. Lots of book smarts gathered over the years. Too small for any high-level contributions or tests. My AIM is Ocmaitu. I tried to hit you up, but you were offline/hidden and not accepting offlines.
~The Prydaen~
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Berserks and IF
02/11/2013 06:25 PM CST
>>Avalanche burned 8 bars to 18/26.
Alright, so berserks definitely do scale in cost to a degree. With ~400 IF avalanche is only costing me five bars.
>>It should be noted that during test #2, I got one aberrant result where Avalanche only cost 1(!) bar. After popping Power again to double-check, I was then down two. I could not reproduce this again after 10 more tries. I'm thinking I did something wrong, but figured I'd report it none the less.
I am seeing some very weird results infrequently as well. Since meditate power takes so long to give you a reading, it's difficult to ascertain if there is some bug with berserk costs or I am merely ignorant of how berserks pulse, and how dramatic the swings of these pulses can be. I am leaning towards the latter, but with some of the results it's difficult to explain the dramatic swing in cost.
Alright, so berserks definitely do scale in cost to a degree. With ~400 IF avalanche is only costing me five bars.
>>It should be noted that during test #2, I got one aberrant result where Avalanche only cost 1(!) bar. After popping Power again to double-check, I was then down two. I could not reproduce this again after 10 more tries. I'm thinking I did something wrong, but figured I'd report it none the less.
I am seeing some very weird results infrequently as well. Since meditate power takes so long to give you a reading, it's difficult to ascertain if there is some bug with berserk costs or I am merely ignorant of how berserks pulse, and how dramatic the swings of these pulses can be. I am leaning towards the latter, but with some of the results it's difficult to explain the dramatic swing in cost.
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Berserks and IF
02/11/2013 07:09 PM CST
Looks like it might be what you mentioned before....ranks 1-400 count way more than ranks 401 to 800. I hope that is not the case though. I hate that line of thinking, because the majority of your time spent is at higher ranks.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
DIAME
Re: Berserks and IF
02/11/2013 07:13 PM CST
How are you getting numbers for IF please?
===
My spathas at hand,
From the ashes I rise,
With resolve in my heart,
And fire in my eyes.
===
My spathas at hand,
From the ashes I rise,
With resolve in my heart,
And fire in my eyes.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Berserks and IF
02/11/2013 07:33 PM CST
>>Looks like it might be what you mentioned before....ranks 1-400 count way more than ranks 401 to 800. I hope that is not the case though. I hate that line of thinking, because the majority of your time spent is at higher ranks.
Kodius mentioned explicitly that barbarian abilities were designed to cap quick and then take longer to achieve max duration then spells. I expect if we timed the duration of these abilities, you would begin to see the value of higher ranks. That comes later, because it's more of a pain in the butt to test.
Having said this, I see two specific points which may influence our perception of inner fire scaling:
1) I am getting the general impression berserks scale much less than forms (I haven't tested meditations much yet). Whereas you can sometimes lower the "cost" of forms to 1/2 or even 1/3 of its base cost, I haven't noticed a berserk that's capable of getting to even 1/2 initial cost yet.
2) The forms that a level 15 barbarian will use are the same forms that a level 150 barbarian will use, and those forms are all intro/basic. That is not to say that our advanced and expert stuff sucks, but if you don't PvP a lot, you don't have much to look forward to (aside from roars).
>>how are you getting numbers for IF please?
Power meditation.
Kodius mentioned explicitly that barbarian abilities were designed to cap quick and then take longer to achieve max duration then spells. I expect if we timed the duration of these abilities, you would begin to see the value of higher ranks. That comes later, because it's more of a pain in the butt to test.
Having said this, I see two specific points which may influence our perception of inner fire scaling:
1) I am getting the general impression berserks scale much less than forms (I haven't tested meditations much yet). Whereas you can sometimes lower the "cost" of forms to 1/2 or even 1/3 of its base cost, I haven't noticed a berserk that's capable of getting to even 1/2 initial cost yet.
2) The forms that a level 15 barbarian will use are the same forms that a level 150 barbarian will use, and those forms are all intro/basic. That is not to say that our advanced and expert stuff sucks, but if you don't PvP a lot, you don't have much to look forward to (aside from roars).
>>how are you getting numbers for IF please?
Power meditation.
GREIFENTHAL
Re: Berserks and IF
02/11/2013 09:24 PM CST
Maybe we could get some old school Everild/Kuniyo/Trothfang berserks at really high circles that tear through caps like paper-mache and just flat out kill you when they end as payment to the gods. I suppose to keep people from using them every time they are losing a fight they could burn up a bunch of favors too. Hey it's a game might as well go epic right?
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Berserks and IF
02/11/2013 10:21 PM CST
>>Maybe we could get some old school Everild/Kuniyo/Trothfang berserks at really high circles that tear through caps like paper-mache and just flat out kill you when they end as payment to the gods. I suppose to keep people from using them every time they are losing a fight they could burn up a bunch of favors too. Hey it's a game might as well go epic right?
The "tear through caps" part probably isn't going to happen, the game has gradually been moving away from the arms-race mentality.
Volcano is very much an old-school type berserk like Kuniyo though. It costs inner fire to avoid death, and makes you unkillable so long as you have inner fire remaining. It's also an incredibly taxing berserk, something like 80% of my inner fire pool. Hurricane berserk is planned and will also be absolutely wicked: pulsing dispel of any magical effects on you, and lowers the mana level of the room.
Those are two berserks that very much fit into the mold of what you're looking for, I think? Crazy powerful effects, super costly.
The "tear through caps" part probably isn't going to happen, the game has gradually been moving away from the arms-race mentality.
Volcano is very much an old-school type berserk like Kuniyo though. It costs inner fire to avoid death, and makes you unkillable so long as you have inner fire remaining. It's also an incredibly taxing berserk, something like 80% of my inner fire pool. Hurricane berserk is planned and will also be absolutely wicked: pulsing dispel of any magical effects on you, and lowers the mana level of the room.
Those are two berserks that very much fit into the mold of what you're looking for, I think? Crazy powerful effects, super costly.
COVERG
Re: Berserks and IF
02/12/2013 04:08 AM CST
How about making IF regeneration be based on hitting an opponent vs killing one? Or change it so that each hit gives some IF with a bigger bonus when you kill your opponent?
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Forging Grand Master of M'Riss
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Forging Grand Master of M'Riss
JARAGONA
Re: Berserks and IF
02/12/2013 06:27 AM CST
>>How about making IF regeneration be based on hitting an opponent vs killing one? Or change it so that each hit gives some IF with a bigger bonus when you kill your opponent?
Seconded. Especially the latter suggestion.
"If swords ever cross, the Barbarian shall be the one left standing." - Guild Leader Agonar
Seconded. Especially the latter suggestion.
"If swords ever cross, the Barbarian shall be the one left standing." - Guild Leader Agonar
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Berserks and IF
02/12/2013 07:16 AM CST
Yeah it's not like we suck their spirit out when they die, we get joy out of hurting things.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
DR-KODIUS
Re: Berserks and IF
02/18/2013 01:48 PM CST
Just a note..
The timer on regenerating IF from kills is 2 minutes. In theory if you kill stuff in 100 seconds you'll be doing fine and not "losing out" versus someone killing something every 5 seconds.
Using 1-2 abilities less than your max, do you find it possible to fill your IF bar? Note - you won't fill your IF bar if you are pushing the # of abilities you can have up at one time, obviously.
Once time allows I'll be changing IF regen to a formulatic approach. Max IF is gained at 200 seconds, if you kill sooner you get a fraction of this. Wheras now it just ignores it, and that is sub-optimal.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
The timer on regenerating IF from kills is 2 minutes. In theory if you kill stuff in 100 seconds you'll be doing fine and not "losing out" versus someone killing something every 5 seconds.
Using 1-2 abilities less than your max, do you find it possible to fill your IF bar? Note - you won't fill your IF bar if you are pushing the # of abilities you can have up at one time, obviously.
Once time allows I'll be changing IF regen to a formulatic approach. Max IF is gained at 200 seconds, if you kill sooner you get a fraction of this. Wheras now it just ignores it, and that is sub-optimal.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
PENDUS
Re: Berserks and IF
02/18/2013 03:28 PM CST
>>Using 1-2 abilities less than your max, do you find it possible to fill your IF bar? Note - you won't fill your IF bar if you are pushing the # of abilities you can have up at one time, obviously.<<
Nope, even without using berserks and only 3-4 forms I can't get above 33%.
Your body tightens as you draw your arms together in a sinuous, flowing motion, mimicking the form you were trained to adopt for this roar of warning.
Kodius fled to the west in terror!
Roundtime: 2 sec.
Nope, even without using berserks and only 3-4 forms I can't get above 33%.
Your body tightens as you draw your arms together in a sinuous, flowing motion, mimicking the form you were trained to adopt for this roar of warning.
Kodius fled to the west in terror!
Roundtime: 2 sec.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Berserks and IF
02/18/2013 04:13 PM CST
>>Nope, even without using berserks and only 3-4 forms I can't get above 33%.
The difference between three forms and four forms is key. I can reach max inner fire after about an hour of hunting using only three forms.
If you still can't get past the 1/3 mark using three forms, it's probably intercessor kill rate.
The difference between three forms and four forms is key. I can reach max inner fire after about an hour of hunting using only three forms.
If you still can't get past the 1/3 mark using three forms, it's probably intercessor kill rate.
VAWN
Re: Berserks and IF
02/18/2013 04:49 PM CST
>>Max IF is gained at 200 seconds, if you kill sooner you get a fraction of this. Wheras now it just ignores it, and that is sub-optimal.
Are you saying that as it stands, if we kill too quickly, it ignores the IF gain for that kill and we have to wait for the next one (assuming that the timer will have run out by then) to get anything out of it? As such, you want to change it to the fractional system?
~The Prydaen~
Are you saying that as it stands, if we kill too quickly, it ignores the IF gain for that kill and we have to wait for the next one (assuming that the timer will have run out by then) to get anything out of it? As such, you want to change it to the fractional system?
~The Prydaen~
COVERG
Re: Berserks and IF
02/18/2013 05:53 PM CST
Isn't the fact that we get NO IF gain if we kill too quickly a bug and should have the priority of a bug? If we kill somthing we should get an IF gain. IF we do DAMAGE To something we should get an IF gain!
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Forging Guru of M'Riss
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Forging Guru of M'Riss
PENDUS
Re: Berserks and IF
02/18/2013 06:08 PM CST
>>If you still can't get past the 1/3 mark using three forms, it's probably intercessor kill rate.<<
Not according to what Kodius posted. We only gain every 200 seconds. I'm killing them faster than that. I can't do it in assassins either which I mow through.
Your body tightens as you draw your arms together in a sinuous, flowing motion, mimicking the form you were trained to adopt for this roar of warning.
Kodius fled to the west in terror!
Roundtime: 2 sec.
Not according to what Kodius posted. We only gain every 200 seconds. I'm killing them faster than that. I can't do it in assassins either which I mow through.
Your body tightens as you draw your arms together in a sinuous, flowing motion, mimicking the form you were trained to adopt for this roar of warning.
Kodius fled to the west in terror!
Roundtime: 2 sec.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Berserks and IF
02/18/2013 06:27 PM CST
I would think that simply killing isn't sufficient; the thing you're killing should provide some sort of combat XP, and frankly, I don't know how to check this. If one of you elder Barbs wanders into Rats and tears them apart, you shouldn't gain any IF for it.
I dunno what the big deal is though; I'm hunting in Gryphons, and not running nearly as many things as you guys, but find I am able, at 45th or so, to keep two forms and a berserk up if I want.
I dunno what the big deal is though; I'm hunting in Gryphons, and not running nearly as many things as you guys, but find I am able, at 45th or so, to keep two forms and a berserk up if I want.
CARDINALE01
Re: Berserks and IF
02/18/2013 06:43 PM CST
Every time I get the feeling to dust off my old Barbarian I read the Barbarian forums and the idea immediately goes away. Just reading about Inner Fire gives me a headache.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Berserks and IF
02/18/2013 07:37 PM CST
That's disappointing; it's a much improved system and allows a lot of flexibility.
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Berserks and IF
02/18/2013 07:41 PM CST
>>Once time allows I'll be changing IF regen to a formulatic approach. Max IF is gained at 200 seconds, if you kill sooner you get a fraction of this. Wheras now it just ignores it, and that is sub-optimal.
Not sure I follow..
Does one kill within 200 seconds give max IF at 200 second intervals, and you get no IF for any other kills until the 200 second interval hits? (Currently)
The new proposal is that you hit max IF for the 200 seconds, every kill after that will give less but give a fraction of the previous full pulses?
If so, I was goingg to suggest just reducing the timer a little may help, but your idea sounds better to me if I read it right.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
Not sure I follow..
Does one kill within 200 seconds give max IF at 200 second intervals, and you get no IF for any other kills until the 200 second interval hits? (Currently)
The new proposal is that you hit max IF for the 200 seconds, every kill after that will give less but give a fraction of the previous full pulses?
If so, I was goingg to suggest just reducing the timer a little may help, but your idea sounds better to me if I read it right.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
JARAGONA
Re: Berserks and IF
02/18/2013 07:56 PM CST
I can fill my IF pool when mowing down gryphons with swan, bear and buffalo up. I can provide data if necessary. I'll try doing it with 4 forms up and see if I can fill.
"If swords ever cross, the Barbarian shall be the one left standing." - Guild Leader Agonar
"If swords ever cross, the Barbarian shall be the one left standing." - Guild Leader Agonar
JESSEPEN
Re: Berserks and IF
02/18/2013 08:09 PM CST
>> I dunno what the big deal is though; I'm hunting in Gryphons, and not running nearly as many things as you guys, but find I am able, at 45th or so, to keep two forms and a berserk up if I want.
Something is not right here. My circle 52 barbarian in gryphons (160's IF) can only keep 1 form up for any length of time. If I'm just using dragon (and killing every 30 seconds or so) then my IF will very slowly increase - slow enough that I'm not filled up after a couple of hours. If I add a second form - monkey, python, or piranha - then I struggle to keep my IF at the decreased passive regen mark. If I use wildfire or famine + dragon then my IF tanks pretty quickly. Is it possible that there are stat differences between us that account for the disparity?
In any case, I really want to enjoy the new barb system but the IF gain rate is a big problem for me. I like the idea of not starting at full IF, but it takes me almost an hour without using any abilities to get full IF. Then if I use two forms or a form and a berserk my IF is depleted in minutes.
To summarize: I'm a 52 barbarian who can use one intro form at a time - maaaybe two - without running out of IF.
Something is not right here. My circle 52 barbarian in gryphons (160's IF) can only keep 1 form up for any length of time. If I'm just using dragon (and killing every 30 seconds or so) then my IF will very slowly increase - slow enough that I'm not filled up after a couple of hours. If I add a second form - monkey, python, or piranha - then I struggle to keep my IF at the decreased passive regen mark. If I use wildfire or famine + dragon then my IF tanks pretty quickly. Is it possible that there are stat differences between us that account for the disparity?
In any case, I really want to enjoy the new barb system but the IF gain rate is a big problem for me. I like the idea of not starting at full IF, but it takes me almost an hour without using any abilities to get full IF. Then if I use two forms or a form and a berserk my IF is depleted in minutes.
To summarize: I'm a 52 barbarian who can use one intro form at a time - maaaybe two - without running out of IF.
BUUWL
Re: Berserks and IF
02/18/2013 08:17 PM CST
<<I would think that simply killing isn't sufficient; the thing you're killing should provide some sort of combat XP, and frankly, I don't know how to check this. If one of you elder Barbs wanders into Rats and tears them apart, you shouldn't gain any IF for it. >>
I dont know, from a mechanics standpoint its helpful to be able to "charge up" on something.
- Buuwl
I dont know, from a mechanics standpoint its helpful to be able to "charge up" on something.
- Buuwl
DR-KODIUS
Re: Berserks and IF
02/18/2013 08:45 PM CST
>>Just reading about Inner Fire gives me a headache.
I'd argue that is the case with all Guilds and all aspects of the game today. Reading the forums as a GM makes ones' head hurt :/ 5 years ago players didn't spend 1/10th the time running numbers and characterizing systems in the explicit, mind-numbing detail they do now.
Not saying that itself is a bad thing, but the game becomes more about some utopian view of balance and less about the RP, less about the world, less about the experience and adventure. Less about enjoying ones' Guild and the fun little things it provides you with :P
What amuses me is 5 years ago we had systems designed from scratch without any actual math behind them. Without any real communication or balance between systems. But because folks didn't care as much, it "worked" more or less. Things have sure evolved - thankfully on both sides of the coin.
>> IF Learning is a bug
Not a bug. Just a mechanic that REMOVES the need to kill quickly and REMOVES the bonus one might get from killing quickly.
I believe everyones' issues will vanish once the Maneuver system is finished. I have a basic combo system in place and am working to expand it. This will be the foundation for Expertise (and maybe Endurance, not positive yet), but it still needs some more polish.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
I'd argue that is the case with all Guilds and all aspects of the game today. Reading the forums as a GM makes ones' head hurt :/ 5 years ago players didn't spend 1/10th the time running numbers and characterizing systems in the explicit, mind-numbing detail they do now.
Not saying that itself is a bad thing, but the game becomes more about some utopian view of balance and less about the RP, less about the world, less about the experience and adventure. Less about enjoying ones' Guild and the fun little things it provides you with :P
What amuses me is 5 years ago we had systems designed from scratch without any actual math behind them. Without any real communication or balance between systems. But because folks didn't care as much, it "worked" more or less. Things have sure evolved - thankfully on both sides of the coin.
>> IF Learning is a bug
Not a bug. Just a mechanic that REMOVES the need to kill quickly and REMOVES the bonus one might get from killing quickly.
I believe everyones' issues will vanish once the Maneuver system is finished. I have a basic combo system in place and am working to expand it. This will be the foundation for Expertise (and maybe Endurance, not positive yet), but it still needs some more polish.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
JARAGONA
Re: Berserks and IF
02/18/2013 09:03 PM CST
30ish minutes:
You are currently practicing the Buffalo Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Dragon Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Bear Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Swan Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > | > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
You feel a jolt as your vision snaps shut.
Basically using a melee weapon and attacking over and over. Threw up eagle to see what happens.
"If swords ever cross, the Barbarian shall be the one left standing." - Guild Leader Agonar
You are currently practicing the Buffalo Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Dragon Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Bear Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Swan Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > | > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
You feel a jolt as your vision snaps shut.
Basically using a melee weapon and attacking over and over. Threw up eagle to see what happens.
"If swords ever cross, the Barbarian shall be the one left standing." - Guild Leader Agonar
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Berserks and IF
02/18/2013 09:18 PM CST
>To summarize: I'm a 52 barbarian who can use one intro form at a time - maaaybe two - without running out of IF.
Dunno what to tell you; I see nothing like that. Are you roaring?
Dunno what to tell you; I see nothing like that. Are you roaring?
JESSEPEN
Re: Berserks and IF
02/18/2013 09:42 PM CST
>> Dunno what to tell you; I see nothing like that. Are you roaring?
Sometimes, yes. Not excessively.
What is your routine that allows you to run two forms and a berserk constantly at 45th circle? Maybe I'm doing something wrong.
Sometimes, yes. Not excessively.
What is your routine that allows you to run two forms and a berserk constantly at 45th circle? Maybe I'm doing something wrong.
JARAGONA
Re: Berserks and IF
02/18/2013 10:09 PM CST
You are currently practicing the Eagle Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Buffalo Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Dragon Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Bear Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Swan Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
> > > > > > > > > > > | > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
You feel a jolt as your vision snaps shut.
Maintaining 5 forms at full IF is no issue with enough spawn (gryphons) and 867 IF.
You are currently practicing the Eagle Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Buffalo Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Dragon Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Bear Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Swan Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are strongly burning with the Tsunami Berserk.
> > > > > > > > > > > | > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - - - - - - - - - - -
You feel a jolt as your vision snaps shut.
Tossed up a berserk ^
You are currently practicing the Eagle Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Buffalo Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Dragon Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Bear Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Swan Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are deeply enraged with the Avalanche Berserk.
> > > > > > > > > > > | > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - -
You feel a jolt as your vision snaps shut.
>
> > > > > > > > > > > | > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - -
Berserk dropped when I switched weapons, so I put up another berserk that wouldn't.
You are currently practicing the Eagle Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Buffalo Form and will hold focus of it for a long time.
You are currently practicing the Dragon Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Bear Form and will hold focus of it for a long time.
You are currently practicing the Swan Form and will hold focus of it for a long time.
You are completely consumed with the Famine Berserk.
You are completely consumed with the Avalanche Berserk.
> > > > > > > > > > > | > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - -
You feel a jolt as your vision snaps shut.
Was able to maintain that IF level and toss up a second berserk. ^
> > > > > > > > > > > | > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> > > > > > > > > > > | > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - -
Was able to build up IF back to the point of when I put up the second berserk. ^
You are currently practicing the Eagle Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Buffalo Form and will hold focus of it for a long time.
You are currently practicing the Dragon Form and will hold focus of it for a long time.
You are currently practicing the Bear Form and will hold focus of it for a long time.
You are currently practicing the Swan Form and will hold focus of it for a long time.
You are completely consumed with the Wildfire Berserk.
You are thoroughly inflamed with the Famine Berserk.
You are deeply enraged with the Avalanche Berserk.
> > > > > > > > > > > | > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
You feel a jolt as your vision snaps shut.
You are currently practicing the Eagle Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Buffalo Form and will hold focus of it for a long time.
You are currently practicing the Dragon Form and will hold focus of it for a long time.
You are currently practicing the Bear Form and will hold focus of it for a long time.
You are currently practicing the Swan Form and will hold focus of it for a long time.
You are completely consumed with the Wildfire Berserk.
You are somewhat crazed with the Famine Berserk.
You are thoroughly inflamed with the Avalanche Berserk.
The Tenacity meditation is still burned into your mind.
> > > > > > > > > > > | > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
You feel a jolt as your vision snaps shut.
Tossed up another berserk and a meditation; however, spawn went downhill because all at once everyone left gryphons :/ ^
You are currently practicing the Eagle Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Buffalo Form and will hold focus of it for a long time.
You are currently practicing the Dragon Form and will hold focus of it for a long time.
You are currently practicing the Bear Form and will hold focus of it for a long time.
You are currently practicing the Swan Form and will hold focus of it for some time.
You are strongly burning with the Volcano Berserk.
You are somewhat crazed with the Famine Berserk.
The Tenacity meditation is still burned into your mind.
> > > > > > > > > > > | > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
You feel a jolt as your vision snaps shut.
Berserks don't last long, so I had to keep juggling them, but still above passive (this is over an hour in). ^
You are currently practicing the Eagle Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Buffalo Form and will hold focus of it for a short time.
You are currently practicing the Dragon Form and will hold focus of it for some time.
You are currently practicing the Bear Form and will hold focus of it for a short time.
You are currently practicing the Swan Form and are very close to losing focus of it.
You are thoroughly inflamed with the Famine Berserk.
You are thoroughly inflamed with the Avalanche Berserk.
The Tenacity meditation is still vivid in your mind.
> > > > > > > > - - - | - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
You feel a jolt as your vision snaps shut.
Spawn was just way too low to maintain IF, berserks kept falling, and my first dance dropped 1.5 into the hunt. ^
Maintaining 5 forms at these ranks of IF is doable, so long as the spawn is there, and things die easily enough.
"If swords ever cross, the Barbarian shall be the one left standing." - Guild Leader Agonar
You are currently practicing the Buffalo Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Dragon Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Bear Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Swan Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
> > > > > > > > > > > | > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
You feel a jolt as your vision snaps shut.
Maintaining 5 forms at full IF is no issue with enough spawn (gryphons) and 867 IF.
You are currently practicing the Eagle Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Buffalo Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Dragon Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Bear Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Swan Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are strongly burning with the Tsunami Berserk.
> > > > > > > > > > > | > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - - - - - - - - - - -
You feel a jolt as your vision snaps shut.
Tossed up a berserk ^
You are currently practicing the Eagle Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Buffalo Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Dragon Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Bear Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Swan Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are deeply enraged with the Avalanche Berserk.
> > > > > > > > > > > | > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - -
You feel a jolt as your vision snaps shut.
>
> > > > > > > > > > > | > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - -
Berserk dropped when I switched weapons, so I put up another berserk that wouldn't.
You are currently practicing the Eagle Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Buffalo Form and will hold focus of it for a long time.
You are currently practicing the Dragon Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Bear Form and will hold focus of it for a long time.
You are currently practicing the Swan Form and will hold focus of it for a long time.
You are completely consumed with the Famine Berserk.
You are completely consumed with the Avalanche Berserk.
> > > > > > > > > > > | > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - -
You feel a jolt as your vision snaps shut.
Was able to maintain that IF level and toss up a second berserk. ^
> > > > > > > > > > > | > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> > > > > > > > > > > | > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - -
Was able to build up IF back to the point of when I put up the second berserk. ^
You are currently practicing the Eagle Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Buffalo Form and will hold focus of it for a long time.
You are currently practicing the Dragon Form and will hold focus of it for a long time.
You are currently practicing the Bear Form and will hold focus of it for a long time.
You are currently practicing the Swan Form and will hold focus of it for a long time.
You are completely consumed with the Wildfire Berserk.
You are thoroughly inflamed with the Famine Berserk.
You are deeply enraged with the Avalanche Berserk.
> > > > > > > > > > > | > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
You feel a jolt as your vision snaps shut.
You are currently practicing the Eagle Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Buffalo Form and will hold focus of it for a long time.
You are currently practicing the Dragon Form and will hold focus of it for a long time.
You are currently practicing the Bear Form and will hold focus of it for a long time.
You are currently practicing the Swan Form and will hold focus of it for a long time.
You are completely consumed with the Wildfire Berserk.
You are somewhat crazed with the Famine Berserk.
You are thoroughly inflamed with the Avalanche Berserk.
The Tenacity meditation is still burned into your mind.
> > > > > > > > > > > | > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
You feel a jolt as your vision snaps shut.
Tossed up another berserk and a meditation; however, spawn went downhill because all at once everyone left gryphons :/ ^
You are currently practicing the Eagle Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Buffalo Form and will hold focus of it for a long time.
You are currently practicing the Dragon Form and will hold focus of it for a long time.
You are currently practicing the Bear Form and will hold focus of it for a long time.
You are currently practicing the Swan Form and will hold focus of it for some time.
You are strongly burning with the Volcano Berserk.
You are somewhat crazed with the Famine Berserk.
The Tenacity meditation is still burned into your mind.
> > > > > > > > > > > | > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
You feel a jolt as your vision snaps shut.
Berserks don't last long, so I had to keep juggling them, but still above passive (this is over an hour in). ^
You are currently practicing the Eagle Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Buffalo Form and will hold focus of it for a short time.
You are currently practicing the Dragon Form and will hold focus of it for some time.
You are currently practicing the Bear Form and will hold focus of it for a short time.
You are currently practicing the Swan Form and are very close to losing focus of it.
You are thoroughly inflamed with the Famine Berserk.
You are thoroughly inflamed with the Avalanche Berserk.
The Tenacity meditation is still vivid in your mind.
> > > > > > > > - - - | - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
You feel a jolt as your vision snaps shut.
Spawn was just way too low to maintain IF, berserks kept falling, and my first dance dropped 1.5 into the hunt. ^
Maintaining 5 forms at these ranks of IF is doable, so long as the spawn is there, and things die easily enough.
"If swords ever cross, the Barbarian shall be the one left standing." - Guild Leader Agonar
VEE-REX
Re: Berserks and IF
02/18/2013 10:17 PM CST
Good stuff, Squanto. Giving us a glimpse of what a Super Barbarian x12 looks like. :D
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
COVERG
Re: Berserks and IF
02/19/2013 05:10 AM CST
<<I believe everyones' issues will vanish once the Maneuver system is finished. I have a basic combo system in place and am working to expand it. This will be the foundation for Expertise (and maybe Endurance, not positive yet), but it still needs some more polish.>>
Well polish it up and get it out here since it will fix everyones' sisues! Fix everyones issues vs fix 300+ existing buggs? I vote for everyones' issues!
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Forging Guru of M'Riss
Well polish it up and get it out here since it will fix everyones' sisues! Fix everyones issues vs fix 300+ existing buggs? I vote for everyones' issues!
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Forging Guru of M'Riss
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Berserks and IF
02/19/2013 07:22 AM CST
It seems odd that you would be able to fill in Gryphs faster than intercessers given how Kodius said IF regen works on a 200 second interval. You're not killing at least every 200 seconds? That's quite a large timeframe. Or maybe you have to kill 2-3 for Max IF at the 200 second interval?
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Berserks and IF
02/19/2013 07:50 AM CST
>What is your routine that allows you to run two forms and a berserk constantly at 45th circle?
I just rotate through weapons, switching every kill. I roar maybe once every 4-5 kills, depending on the routine I'm doing. I'm training HE, HB, Brawl, Bows, LT, and Offhand, and am also backtraining Polearms. I'm probably killing every 1m to 1:30. The forms that I can keep up in perpetuity are Monkey and Dragon/Eagle; I haven't tested to confirm, but I feel that more difficult forms pulse more IF. For example, I can't keep up Bear and Monkey if I'm also roaring or not killing as fast. The berserk I'm using is Wildfire; I cannot keep Tsunami up with forms.
Mind you, when I say 'in perpetuity' I'm exaggerating a bit; what I actually mean to say is 'I'll put up two basic forms and a basic berserk, and start killing, and they won't fall for a good while, at which point I've locked up a couple weapons and need to change my routine a bit, and maybe need to reberserk or reset a form'. I haven't actually tested putting up this combo and using a single weapon and seeing how long it lasts.
I just rotate through weapons, switching every kill. I roar maybe once every 4-5 kills, depending on the routine I'm doing. I'm training HE, HB, Brawl, Bows, LT, and Offhand, and am also backtraining Polearms. I'm probably killing every 1m to 1:30. The forms that I can keep up in perpetuity are Monkey and Dragon/Eagle; I haven't tested to confirm, but I feel that more difficult forms pulse more IF. For example, I can't keep up Bear and Monkey if I'm also roaring or not killing as fast. The berserk I'm using is Wildfire; I cannot keep Tsunami up with forms.
Mind you, when I say 'in perpetuity' I'm exaggerating a bit; what I actually mean to say is 'I'll put up two basic forms and a basic berserk, and start killing, and they won't fall for a good while, at which point I've locked up a couple weapons and need to change my routine a bit, and maybe need to reberserk or reset a form'. I haven't actually tested putting up this combo and using a single weapon and seeing how long it lasts.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Berserks and IF
02/19/2013 07:54 AM CST
I should also note that I can certainly keep one form, maybe two, up indefinitely; while forging I will put up swan and monkey and they will not drop.
