>>I would like to see a bonus akin to the 2 second RT (or is it 1?) for stealth actions, Survival Primes have. Lower minimum RT for weapons achieved at X ranks and Y Physical Stats, for Weapon Prime.

They just raised minimum RTs for many weapon classes to actually give a benefit to lighter, quicker weapons. I think lowering them again is a bad idea, regardless of circumstance, unless you want everyone to be a cookie-cutter barbarian that uses the same three weapons again. There's no point in using a scimitar when you can use a broadsword with the same roundtime.

I would like to see more clearly-defined benefits for weapons primary, but I'm personally more interested in inner fire feats and expertise first, not to mention the return of dual load and the un-wussification of whirlwind.

+3 even. Great concept.

______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Forging Grand Master of M'Riss

<<Agreed. If we don't end up with the best weapon boosters, I'm going to be ticked.>>

just gotta keep on keepin' on. I feel this.


- Buuwl

<<>>Agreed, but Barbs should get an inherent (and usable) bonus for being weapon primary, sort of like how Paladins get lower hindrance in Plate just for being Armor primes, or how Survival primes get lower stealth hindrance and (2/3rds of them) get a large bonus to skills just from skillset placement(do they even respect caps?), or how Lore primes get 2 careers and however many extra hobbies just by being Lore primes. Weapons should also reap some kind of inherent (usable) benefit not counting planned Expertise since other guilds also get a skill-set specific skill.>>

Very good points, and I agree. I don't think the bonus would be helpful as a basic damage or balance/suited boost because most people are already hitting the damage caps anyway--you wouldn't notice any real difference most of the time. I think a cooler angle would be special barb moves tied to expertise (or not) that had damage multipliers, i.e. backstab. There would have to be some kind of drawback or limiting factor to prevent them from being insane (backstab has perc check, melee only, LE/ME certain weight blades only etc), but it seems like that would be a really cool angle for barb-only stuff. Am I imagining things or was Kodius planning things like that?

>> I'd be much happier with a +1 stat level on weapons or a flat damage level boost that allows to hit harder without a buff, something along those lines.

Assuming I understand your request, we already have that in Wildfire.

>>As far as berserks, I've stopped using them all together because they just tear through my IF pool.

I regularly use Avalanche, Famine, Wildfire and Tornado, and I pop Flashflood whenever I get stunned. Once you have several forms running and are in combat, what else are you going to spend your IF on?

I am not sure why anyone would use berserks in regular hunting right now. If you are having fun trying to kill some critters that are over your head, then yeah, but not for training (trying to gain skills in this case). It isn't like the old system where you could berserk and hunt for extended periods of time in areas that you simply would not be able to without the berserks. The creatures go down too slow, or the IF gain per kill doesn't scale to relative danger well enough, for that to work in my experience so far.

Avalanche is a good berserk I agree, but when you are just trying to gain skill why use the high damage/fatigue maneuvers? Why risk standing there waiting for a new spawn when you can minimize the chance that you will be standing there critter-less at all? There is not any real reward for killing fast or making really hard hits right now except for the wealth and skinning experience, as far as I can tell.

>Avalanche is a good berserk I agree, but when you are just trying to gain skill why use the high damage/fatigue maneuvers? Why risk standing there waiting for a new spawn when you can minimize the chance that you will be standing there critter-less at all? There is not any real reward for killing fast or making really hard hits right now except for the wealth and skinning experience, as far as I can tell.

Where are you hunting that spawn is so low? Even when I'm raging hard I can usually only kill a critter in 20-25 seconds. More realistically, since I am also training tactics, appraisal, perception via HUNT, and stealth, I'm probably killing ever 40+ seconds, on average. You don't need four critters at melee constantly to learn defenses effectively anymore, so there's no reason not to kill a bit quicker, assuming steady spawn (which is a safe assumption for most hunting grounds).

You can only use five forms at a time and meditations can't be used in combat, so berserks are really the only game in town. You don't get extra credit or a gold star for having full IF; if you can afford a buff without risking dropping your other buffs, you may as well use it, since it's literally use it or waste your passive IF regen.

>>Hunting celps on Ratha, the spawn isn't too good. Raiders obviously the spawn is pretty weak. Sky giants slightly out of range for effective hunting in 3.0. No safe assumption of steady spawn in those areas. It probably depends on your strength too, I trained it up pretty high to compensate for weaker berserks and maybe kill fast, nothing to compare it to so hard to tell.

I hunted celps on Ratha fine for a while after 3.0 came out. With no other hunters the spawn can be slow, but once you sit and let your defenses get to about 10/34 you can usually kill fast and rely on a couple engaged to you at most times.

For Gort, Contemplation is always active(it's on a 25 minute timer), Piranha and Swan as well(the only reason I keep Swan up is for Warding) and Dragon/Eagle depending on what's being trained(don't use either for primary/secondary weapon). Tornado is set up to be on all the time in Intercessors, but it's got to the point that it was just too unreliable and far too costly to keep up, so I set up a conditional branch my script that if it can't berserk, it goes through 100 combat rounds before trying again.

Funny thing about that is, Tornado never starts successfuly in my script now with just Contemplation/Piranha/Swan/Dragon or Eagle active, and I'm tempted to just stop zerking entirely since it's a waste of fire. Zerks just don't mesh well with other abilities, are still far too costly and short duration to be using regularly, combined with that their utility value is very low(Volcano makes you into an un-killable punching bag IMO), excluding Flashflood, and I'd rather stop using them at all.

Also, there's a bug with zerks where if you don't meet the cost to start them, not only does the ability fail to start but it also drains the rest of your remaining Inner Fire, which is a total slap in the face when you're mid PvP and go to activate a zerk and fail, then 2 seconds later all your forms/zerks drop. I think Vinjince posted about it once already but I can't stress enough how detrimental to our class this is.

---

IM: Dannyboy00001111

"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."

>>I think Vinjince posted about it once already but I can't stress enough how detrimental to our class this is.

He may have posted about it, but I have before as well. I don't think it was restricted to berserks though, anything that failed to start took IF. I want to say I posted about meditations doing it.

>>DIMINISHEDANGEL

You should really post who you are IG, or at bare minimum what you are hunting and your combat level, otherwise your posts are falling on def ears. No one really cares that everything is peachy in your experience when you supply no details. Not trying to be harsh or anything because obviously you are knowledgeable and that doesn't go unnoticed, but you know who all of us are, what we hunt and our skill levels, and then you post disaproval on many ideas. please provide your skill level. Circle is the best way to start because we can tell what you were grandfathered to. We already proved that your IF ranks count for 150% times most other barbs at higher ranks than you, I just want to see what else is bugged on your character.


Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons

>>You should really post who you are IG, or at bare minimum what you are hunting and your combat level, otherwise your posts are falling on def ears. No one really cares that everything is peachy in your experience when you supply no details. Not trying to be harsh or anything because obviously you are knowledgeable and that doesn't go unnoticed, but you know who all of us are, what we hunt and our skill levels, and then you post disaproval on many ideas. please provide your skill level. Circle is the best way to start because we can tell what you were grandfathered to. We already proved that your IF ranks count for 150% times most other barbs at higher ranks than you, I just want to see what else is bugged on your character.

I'm Malkien (I thought this was general forum knowledge, not trying to hide it), I've posted my ranks numerous times before, but here they are as per your request.

Inner Fire: 415 71% enthralled (32/34) Augmentation: 241 04% nearly locked (33/34)
Debilitation: 310 17% very engaged (23/34) Warding: 241 03% enthralled (32/34)


Here's a snapshot of my current meditate power:

You are currently practicing the Piranha Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Eagle Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Swan Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Dragon Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
IF: 11/81 (using these four forms lowers my passive regen to 11 bars, so I'm max outside of combat right now)

I can keep three basic/intro forms running outside of combat infinitely, and still have enough IF for an intro or basic berserk. Using these four forms, my IF slowly drains outside of combat, so I would be unable to berserk out of combat (I am using the out-of-combat comparison to try and simulate intercessors, since I have no idea what their kill rate is like).

I normally run around with three forms active at all times instead of four, which sets my passive regen to 15/81, but I am using four right now trying to experiment and see if I can recommend something to more HLCs hunting intercessors. I always try to keep 5+ bars of inner fire active at any time so my forms don't drop, so at this skill level I wouldn't use any berserk outside of Avalanche with four forms running. But I normally only use three anyways, which allows me to berserk quite frequently.

>>I wouldn't be using Wildfire, I'd be using Tornado for the shield and stamina bonus. With the three or four forms and a berserk, I'm out of IF after a while.

Tornado and Wildfire are both basic berserks, so I think they'd cost the same. You know that forms not only lower passive regen cap but also regen rate, yes? If you're running around with 4+ forms, that might be why you never get above a certain level of IF. Have you tried dropping Monkey?

If you're happiest using no berserks, that is a perfectly legitimate hunting method, and I am by no means saying you're doing it "incorrectly" or some such. I am merely communicating that berserks are perfectly feasible to use on a regular basis depending on your other IF spending habits.

***

Side note: if anyone feels like testing, I'd love it if people would post their skills levels and some data. I think we need to investigate how inner fire skill scales, I am getting the impression it doesn't scale much, but no one can make any conclusions based on

Stuff that would be useful:
Your ranks
Form "cost" (how many bars a single form lowers your passive IF cap): all levels - Intro, Basic, Advanced, Expert
Berserk cost (how many bars it costs to activate specifically): all levels - Intro, Basic, Advanced, Expert
Meditation cost (same as berserks)

I was just about to ask you to provide some data, DA. Here's mine:

Starting with 1/3rd IF and no abilities up, I just put up Piranha, Monkey, Python, and Dragon and they lasted 14 minutes before dropping.

It used 13 bars of IF.

This is all with 600 ranks of IF. I'm not sure how you're putting up and maintaining these abilities out of combat like it's nothing, so maybe IF isn't scaling all that well considering we're all within 400-500 ranks of each other? I absolutely refuse to throw up 4 forms in PvP because of the fact that I'll most likely be using a meditation or two, and as you can see 4 forms will end up depleting my IF anyway. I wouldn't dare add a berserk to it. I will throw up 3 forms if I feel I absolutely have to, but my general rule is to try to keep it to 2 forms or less. I want to be able to emergency throw up Flashflood or Volcano without being too low on IF.

I know this is all off topic, but Barbarians have a fundamental issue with how IF works that 1500 ranks of IF won't solve. It's that other nearly unusable 67%. Like I said, I timed it out of combat with no abilities up from full IF and it lasted only 20 minutes before hitting 1/3 again. That's just... we can't reliably use it. It's just there.

I'd suggest putting us at 1/2 IF or giving us Bat form to increase the IF cap, or make it so that any IF gained from killing doesn't have any drainage. I know Kodius is working on a couple things so I'll completely re-evaluate our IF situation once he releases that stuff, so it's no biggie right now. :)

---

Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.

-GM Abasha

First off, thanks.

>>
You are currently practicing the Piranha Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Eagle Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Swan Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Dragon Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
IF: 11/81 (using these four forms lowers my passive regen to 11 bars, so I'm max outside of combat right now)

This is so funny because I run the exact same thing, except I add Tornado berserk. I start eagle first because I do ranged first, then after ranged locks I add dragon (a couple minutes), on my next melee weapon. Here I just did a med power:

You are currently practicing the Piranha Form and will hold focus of it for some time.
You are currently practicing the Eagle Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Dragon Form and will hold focus of it for a very long time.
You are currently practicing the Swan Form and can only hold focus of it for a little longer.
You are deeply enraged with the Tornado Berserk.
>>>>>

---

|

With me killing normally I cannot keep this full steam, although it is most of the time, maybe it's the berserk? I know for a fact I can keep all of the forms going and probably another form going without the berserk.

Here are the ranks:

Inner Fire: 674 11% mind lock (34/34) Augmentation: 547 16% mind lock (34/34)
Debilitation: 417 00% pondering (7/34) Warding: 371 47% nearly locked (33/34)


I dunno, I think perhaps berserks cost too much.

>>Tornado and Wildfire are both basic berserks, so I think they'd cost the same.

I am almost positive wildfire costs more, I switched it out because I could never keep it going.


Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons

>> I will test again later in combat with no kills, and then with kills. Using only three forms, however, I can very easily handle an intro or basic berserk in combat, and I personally prefer to use 3 forms instead of four so I leave myself the option of berserking when I choose.

That makes sense. I think 3 forms and a berserk would be easily maintenance for me, as long as I'm not using the advanced stuff.

>>I have basically started to think of my passive IF cap as "100% inner fire" and just adjusted my buff routine around that.

Yeah, this is where I'm at too. I view it as 100% now.

As I've said before, this is what I love about this system. Everyone has different setups and routines. It's as far from cookie cutter as you can get. I know the new system is still fresh but I think it's gonna keep me invigorated for a long time. Lots of fun.

---

Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.

-GM Abasha

>>I can keep three basic/intro forms running outside of combat infinitely

When you say this, you are sugggesting they drop, but then you can put them all back up right away, correct? If you literally mean infinitely, something seems wrong, because just a couple forms outside of combat (swan and bear) will eventually drop for me--albeit a long time, and I am nearing 900 IF. Malkien, will you IM me before posting your thoughts? I was thinking something similar. Squantodr.

---

"If swords ever cross, the Barbarian shall be the one left standing." - Guild Leader Agonar

It doesn't really bother me all that much if berserks aren't that useful in normal everyday hunting(when you are not up-hunting). If they are powerful and useful enough in at level confrontations, up hunting, to get yourself out of a bad situation when in everyday hunting, or boss fights that would be good with me, as long as all the lore skills are still learnable.

Pendus -

Intercessor kill rate seems to be the common factor among everyone saying that berserks are too costly for them, so that's probably the issue. If you step down to assassins or dillos and back-train weapons you will probably find that you can use them quite fine if inner fire is managed well.

Also, there seems to be some inconsistency with berserk costs, which might explain some of the confusion that was in this thread. I've submitted a bug report.

>>Intercessor kill rate seems to be the common factor among everyone saying that berserks are too costly for them, so that's probably the issue. If you step down to assassins or dillos and back-train weapons you will probably find that you can use them quite fine if inner fire is managed well.<<

No, that solution is pretty damn unacceptable and flat out stupid. When an MU has to step down to refill their mana above 1/3rd just to use their abilities to their fullest I'll go with it, but they don't. They regen passively to 100%. I'm not going to back train weaponry for an hour just to get to use my abilities.

What I posted was without killing. The IF usage on the berserk was more than 3 forms combined. With the berserk going, my IF tanked. Without it and three forms my IF was on it's way back to the passive cap.

Your body tightens as you draw your arms together in a sinuous, flowing motion, mimicking the form you were trained to adopt for this roar of warning.
Kodius fled to the west in terror!
Roundtime: 2 sec.