<<Jaedren's old and comes from a time when snake charms really were 5 gold. Stop shaking your cane at the kids, old man, you're riling them up.>>

Fixed.

But that first bit is true. My statement really was just my opinion, and I have zero control over the prices paid out for Dira.

GM Jaedren

"This is a game with limitless potential money sources with a growing playerbase earning increasingly more money WRT time."

If this was a real world economy sure- but it isn't and the fact that Joe Trader has 50,000 Plat to spend doesn't affect me anymore than if Suzy Warmage has 2000 to spend. Flavius has about 500-600 plat that slowly increases. He will never be a competitive bidder for any of the auction items, but can afford pretty much anything else he wants.

"How many more people today would be able to buy boats at the original prices when you compare with the number of people who could afford them initially? Given time and desire, the accumulation of wealth of every player will increase. Not simply the amount of wealth, but the rate of accumulation. Whether it affects you or not, you have to see this is a problem."

I don't see the problem. There are two easy answers- they increase the price of boats so only a limited number of players can afford them- which again wouldn't be Flavius or they keep the prices the same and more people own boats. I do not see the problem you speak of. Wealth accumulation does not cause problems in DR.

True- if you had 200 plats 5 years ago that might mean more at an auction, or for buying some incredibly rare items. But the really rare items are being sold for cash now anyways, so that kind of throws the whole ingame inflation thing out the window. But no one needs any of those things- they are always going to be rare. The fact that something that was unique cost 500 plat 4 years ago sells for 2000 plat today doesn't impact more than a handful of players, and they don't need this stuff.

Its basically like complaining about RL inflation when the only thing increasing in price are Rolls Royces.

>If this was a real world economy sure- but it isn't and the fact that Joe Trader has 50,000 Plat to spend doesn't affect me anymore than if Suzy Warmage has 2000 to spend.

Contrary to your belief, macroeconomic theories do apply very well in game economics.

>True- if you had 200 plats 5 years ago that might mean more at an auction, or for buying some incredibly rare items. But the really rare items are being sold for cash now anyways, so that kind of throws the whole ingame inflation thing out the window.

Neither of these statements throw inflations out of the window. They are symptoms of IG currency inflation. Plats used to be just above 10 cents a pop and now under 5 cents each; plats are worthless.

>Its basically like complaining about RL inflation when the only thing increasing in price are Rolls Royces.

I would say its closer to having your middle class renters complaining about increasing real estate costs and that they never being able to apply for a decent enough mortgage to have a home to themself. Sure, they can get by fine, but there's that carrot on the stick that keeps being pushed away from them.

Why is it no one has yet come up with an example of an item that is not one-of-a-kind unique that has gone up in price?

If inflation is so prevalent and this is such an issue you should be able to come up with a lot of examples right?

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Rev. Reene

(12:39:01 PM) Kougen: Also, what the hell is with you and biting people?

Plat sales don't reflect the value of actual goods at all.

The only example you've brought up in this thread - gweths - is utterly moot, as gweth prices are stable and have been for as long as I've been playing the game.

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Rev. Reene

(12:39:01 PM) Kougen: Also, what the hell is with you and biting people?

>Plat sales don't reflect the value of actual goods at all.

And what does that tell you about inflation?

Inflation is the devaluing of currency, a mismatch between the value of currency and value of goods over time.

>> Inflation is the devaluing of currency, a mismatch between the value of currency and value of goods over time.

A gweth now will cost you the same thing it did 5 years ago.

Fluff at a festival costs about the same now as it did 5 years ago.

Tanned leathers will cost you less now than they would 5 years ago.

Forged weapons will cost you less now than they would 5 years ago.

Show me where things like this cost more than they used to. Not auction-level items either, which shadowsilk and repeaters kind of are now.

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Rev. Reene

(12:39:01 PM) Kougen: Also, what the hell is with you and biting people?

I did not cite gweths as example of inflation in itself.

I cited it as an example of increased expectations out of genuine newbies. That was many posts ago and being re-brought back out of context.

Raised bars against newbies is rarely a good thing, and there's good portion of people who dislike being given handouts, or find having to expect handouts to enjoy a game a turn off.

"In fact, if a newbie has gweths, I know they're not really a newbie."

Rethink that notion. I know I have personally purchased or obtained gweths for several newbies - TRUE newbies.

Rallyne

>>In terms of 'hard' numbers DR Sales' market value for plats over the years is probably a pretty strong indicator for inflation. You can't get stronger numbers than that without someone having the access to all IG PC transactions and actively collecting data.<<

No..

The value of plats has fallen because the RL economy is bad, the supply of plats has increased, and demand for plats has fallen off a cliff.

That is NOT an indicator of an increase in the price of goods in the DR economy.

The DR economy is not a perfect analog to the RL economy. Increasing the plat supply doesn't of itself increase prices on anything but a handful of goods, and only in the secondary or auction markets. You need to rethink what you think you know about economics.

- Mazrian

The Flying Company

The Public Stat Data Project
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkqoUyrmvlKNdGlpeHZacEdldi1Ob2h3M1I5TXpCZVE&hl=en

"Contrary to your belief, macroeconomic theories do apply very well in game economics."

I actually agree with you- but you have to apply the correct theories to the correct system. There are actually several economic systems in place in DR- probably more that I cannot think of but here are the ones that come to mind:

First of all the given for all of the systems- there is an ever increasing supply of money.

a) Non-Market controlled economy- this reflects all the items sold at stores in the game. No matter- there is no limit to the supply, there is only a limit on demand. Prices are artificially controlled. I can think of no economic theory that really accounts for this, but its immaterial for our discussion, because there will never be any inflation unless the 'state' decides there should be. The supply of cash has no effect on the prices or the supply.

b) Player made items- limited supply- price controlled by supply and demand. Supply is dictated by what suppliers are willing to produce- the prices are pretty close to rock bottom now. This is a case where increased supply and limited demand has resulted in price deflation. Not necessarily good for suppliers but better for buyers. The increase of cash at this point really will have no further affect since the prices are already as low as the market will permit.

c) High end Player Supplied items- limited availibility items. Think Museum HX, Gweth Smashers, Astral guides- I can't say that I know this market well. I bought my Museum HX about 5-6 years ago for 100 plat- I think that is close to what they are going for. All of these items are purchasable by anyone who has put in the time and effort to make the coin, regardless of whether the prices have increased. These are all affordable luxeries.

d) Resale Festival items. Festival items when bought originally are just expensive store bought items- fixed prices, but with limited time availibility. The limited availibility and superior perceived value is what makes them valuable. The increasing supply of coins probably does affect the price at the festival, but their original price is within reach of anyone who has accumulated wealth consistantly. The aftermarket is affected I am sure by the increasing supply of coins, but not as much as the limited supply and perceived value. This is one area that there may be an inflation affect, but it is for a very limited number of luxery items.

e) Auction items. Think of auction items as the Stradavarius' and Michelangelo items of Dragonrealms. The price of auction items is certainly affected by the ever increasing supply of cash, but just like I do feel slighted that I will never be bidding on a Stradaverius in RL, I am not slighted by anyone who spends 2000 plat on animated snake. If I had wanted to be doing that, I would be buying plats or running my own AFK trader- or even earning it legitimately.

"Plats used to be just above 10 cents a pop and now under 5 cents each; plats are worthless."
This is not a symptom of inflation- its because there is a lack of things to spend 2000 plat on.

"I would say its closer to having your middle class renters complaining about increasing real estate costs and that they never being able to apply for a decent enough mortgage to have a home to themself. Sure, they can get by fine, but there's that carrot on the stick that keeps being pushed away from them."

Since I fit that category well, I will say I disagree with your analogy. First of all, to make the analogy correct, my rent would have to be fixed, and there would be an endless supply of fixed rent apartments. In that world, it would make absolute sense to continue renting rather than chase ever escalating home prices. If I wanted a bigger place, I would just rent a bigger place for the fixed price rents.

"Inflation is the devaluing of currency, a mismatch between the value of currency and value of goods over time."

I think you cherry picked your definition of inflation. Here is one I feel is more applicable:

"The overall general upward price movement of goods and services in an economy" or this:

"Inflation is an increase in the price of a basket of goods and services that is representative of the economy as a whole."

Now consider the Consumer Price Index, which is the most generally quoted measure of inflation in the United States- this is a bucket of goods and services. It doesn't include the price of Picasso's or Rolls Royces. If there were a CPI in DR, it wouldn't include the price of boats or auction items. The CPI would be essentially level.

I think you are approaching this with a money supply mindset, convinced that there must be inflation because there is a constant increase in the money supply, and therefore something must be done about the money supply. But you haven't demonstrated that there is any inflation in regards to the CPI of Dragonrealms, only to the price of Stradavarius'.

Why do I care about this argument? Because I don't want a stupid solution to a non-existant problem. I don't want be "taxed" hundreds of plats just so a few people feel like this will affect a non-existant inflation problem. Give me new services and things to spend my cash on and I will happily spend it, but just say no to required money pits.

>The value of plats has fallen because the RL economy is bad, the supply of plats has increased, and demand for plats has fallen off a cliff.

Actually, Plats have already plummeted to 5 cents a pop before the economy collapse and AFAIK didn't change since, so no, RL economy actually didn't influence plat value in this instance.

>The DR economy is not a perfect analog to the RL economy.

No one claimed this.

>Increasing the plat supply doesn't of itself increase prices on anything but a handful of goods, and only in the secondary or auction markets.

The problem is a lot of symptoms are being clouded by multitude of issues, some causes X to go up others cause X to go down. Dissecting and analyzing them properly is a paramount effort. THIS is why Economists have to remember two words: Ceteris Paribus

>

You need to rethink what you think you know about economics.

Economics major, MBA.

---

>Flavius

I've already said most of what I have to say the last time this topic came up so I probably wont' be as detailed this time around due to my lack of motivation for repetition.

>I actually agree with you- but you have to apply the correct theories to the correct system.

Absolutely, but I responded that way because a lot of people keep hand-waving "oh this is a game its not the same" as a blanket excuse to everything. The truth is that Economics is a SOCIAL science, SUPPORTED by mathematics as TOOLS, but at its core it is NOT math, therefore as long as PEOPLE have influence on something, social theories can be applied.


>a)

While true, but this has never been the focus of anyone on the side arguing "Inflation is a problem", even if they never said it out and is really a straw man argument. Discussions on store-bought equipment is pedantic at best. If analogue must be found, though, consider the commodity markets where the government (GMs) impose Price Ceiling and Price Floors.


>b)

>Supply is dictated by what suppliers are willing to produce

That's Classical economic theory, and personally I believe to never be true.

One MAJOR issue with player-made items is that they're effectively indestructable (forged/tanned), or cost virtually nothing or no risk to make (CJ's, gwethdaesauns)

Neither of these mean they are so removed from realistic economics that they cannot be dissected and analyzed. Also, remember that any school of thought were developed from nothing.

What it means here is that the economy has found the equilibrium where despite the continually dropping demand (indestructable equipment) and increased potential supply (more people can make them) people have found that right level of pricing that no one is willing to disturb; no new suppliers will enter the market for lower profits, no existing suppliers are willing to undercut enough/frequently to reduce income, etc.

This point of equilibrium doesn't necessarily mean absolutely nothing else is shifting, though, the supply curve itself may be nudged, as well as the demand curve (which is more likely to be shifting lower as items are indestructable), yet the price point is moving along the curve and so on.


>Other categories

I'll agree that super auction level items are the true-luxury items, but resale of past items do suffer these problems. However, for all these categories their rarity ALONE is not the sole source of increase in price. There's plenty of "fest"/fluff market stuff that are neither true-luxury nor commodities.

---

>This is not a symptom of inflation- its because there is a lack of things to spend 2000 plat on.

What this means is the high-end wealthy people are the source of the inflation, while your low-end newbies aren't contributing to the problem.

When money is being added to the total supply at a rate greater than it is being removed, that === inflation.


>Since I fit that category well, I will say I disagree with your analogy. First of all, to make the analogy correct, my rent would have to be fixed, and there would be an endless supply of fixed rent apartments.

Ceteris Paribus. If you discount an scenario because many variables cannot be controlled, nothing in this world can be analyzed.

>> Actually, Plats have already plummeted to 5 cents a pop before the economy collapse

No they didn't. I would know.

Prices are still dropping even now for two reasons: there's far less demand for plats (because we have nothing to spend them on), and the RL economy is still really crappy.

I would also be willing to bet that the loss of big-ticket items like boats being on sale also contributed to the drop in plat prices. You'll notice a correlation there if you look. Boats used to be a huge motivator for people buying platinums but not anymore.

There used to be a huge spike in plat prices around festivals too, but even that isn't what it used to be, which is a pity because it was a great way to make some quick cash to cover the cost of a pay fest.

---

Rev. Reene

(12:39:01 PM) Kougen: Also, what the hell is with you and biting people?

>No they didn't. I would know.

Hm okay, well all I can say is I remember pretty explicitly when I was looking for something a couple years ago plats were around 5 cents~5.5 cents a pop. It could be that one particular offer.


>Mazrian

Well absolutely, this isn't something I have access nor time to collect data for, and neither do you. So I can only present it as an opinion and state my reasons for them. As for the rest of your post, I fail to find anything constructive to your argument.

>Almost every authority agrees that inflation occurs when there is too much money in circulation, but in DR we do not have any appreciable inflation. Therefore either the theories of inflation do not strictly apply to DR, or there is not too much money in circulation.

Well, like I said I don't have the numbers, but we agree high-end money makers have too much money, making more, and no where to spend, yes? So that's a source of increasing money into circulation.

If I understood you correctly, you're saying whether or not increased money in circulation in and of itself is a problem cannot necessarily be for granted accepted as true. Very well. I honestly cannot disprove that, but IIRC in the past there had been GM's citing or at least insinuating that this as a possible problem.



P.S. These posts from player of Flavius and Reene are what I like to see. While I may not necessarily change my opinion by what they say, they are coherent and constructive arguments where new information or perspective can be gleaned from, some I cannot refute, but in spite of it I do not feel it necessarily refute mine. Certain poster(s) should consider following their example instead of making irrelevant attacks.

However, I see that further discussion are serving only academic purpose when we already agree that high-end moneymakers have too much money and no where to spend, hence my proposal to simply agree to agree on that.

I think discussions on HOW to create meaningful ways for high-end moneymakers to spend money will be more productive from this point on, and I have already asserted my opinion that fixed-price, one-time cost products or services would not be a sustainable solution, hence I proposed that new solutions to be consummable or recurring costs in some form.

I hesitate to say that anyone has too much money simply because how they choose to spend their time and money playing - be it farming plats from creatures or gaming the resell market or buying plats at 3.5 cents a pop - is not really any of my business.

My concern is really a selfish one, because I personally am bored of having thousands sitting in my bank account with nothing compelling to spend it on except murder fines and outfitting newbies. I mean, there are auctions yes, but I rarely see anything I want being sold (because SOMEONE keeps forgetting the luckstones) and I don't want to be one of those people who buys up items just so they can win something at an auction and potentially take it away from someone that really wants it.

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Rev. Reene

(12:39:01 PM) Kougen: Also, what the hell is with you and biting people?

<<Why is it no one has yet come up with an example of an item that is not one-of-a-kind unique that has gone up in price?

Not sure where you were going with this, and the discussion seems to have moved on, but quadrellos are pretty expensive. Only 4 years ago they sold for far far less than they are now.

---

Let Lyras win.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdaOeAxy0GU

You know, I worked pretty hard for my thousands of plats and missed lots of skill training. That was my choice to have a better shot a getting what I wanted at auctions. And when I reached a comfortable amount, I stopped working for coin.

I think the problem is more that things like boats can't be bought. And some of the best items you can get costs LTBs and not coin (bonding potions, box openers). So remaining items are the only thing people have to lust after.

Sometimes prices are just wrong too. I would have paid hundreds of plats for moon jewelry. Or thousands for a combined piece. I think they sold for a few plat each?

http://elanthipedia.com/wiki/Luckstone

---

Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Blunts for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares

Doesn't it say right there that you already own one and they all function identically? If its a specific design you wanted couldn't you just trade?