Couldn't this be solved in an IC way? I mean, wouldn't some necromancers be attracted to holy holidays for their own purposes (assuming something didn't happen that was OOC - I wasn't there. I really don't know).

> Why would that translate to non-Necromancers, especially Paladins and Clerics, tolerating them?

I wasn't implying that they would be tolerated. I'm simply saying that it makes IC sense for them to be there.

> that it was inappropriate to attempt to respond ICly in a negative way to a Necromancer attending.

Ah. Yeah, that's sticky. Maybe mentor events should avoid religious activity?

Sounds like a great opportunity for a Mentor Maelshyvean worship tour for religiously inclined necromancers. You can hit up the abyss, her fortress, Hodierna's Solace, the Zaulfung stones and the warrior mage guild.

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Vote:
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So, my Paladin went to an event to celebrate a holy holiday. A necromancer showed up that he has had past dealings with and now knows that it only understands violence. RP ensued. I OOCly understand there is a player behind the necro, but I also understand that the player chose to be in a guild that is supposed to be shunned by society. It is not in my Paladin's nature to boo and hiss a necromancer during a 'friendly' competition, being all polite and sociable about its presence. He is not always violent toward them since there is no way to be completely rid of them, but he is not averse to it. The ruckus he caused and complaint about the rules was entirely IC and I do understand event disruptions having run many in the past. I have had events disrupted and even ended due to PC RP or even a GM events. The disruption lasted a few minutes and did not completely destroy the event. My character left in disgust and found other things to do. That is what happened in a nutshell.

I know it is a mentor rule, but it is a rule that goes against the supposed RP of necromancers in the lands. We are supposed to RP, but suspend that RP at a celebration of a Chadatru holiday? Be all huggly snuggly and accepting the presence of something like that? My Paladin cannot be apathetic to that. So if my Paladin goes to one of these events, expect some RP if a necromancer or some other undesirable shows up.


~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.

I was at a different event at the time this happened, but IMO it's either a roleplaying event or it's not. Having RP events with the Mentors where Necromancers are allowed opens up all sorts of doors. Do we then regard the Mentors ICly as tolerant of Necromancy? The mentor characters running the events? That may force the players of various mentor characters into awkward positions.

But here's the thing. If you tell me it's a roleplaying event, I'm going to roleplay. This may mean a conflict with Necromancers. That may mean other people are pro-Necro. Necromancers are a BIG part of the ongoing lore and conflict within the game. If it's an event where only certain types of roleplay are tolerated, especially if there are going to be OOC consequences for interfering with a Mentor event, you kind of need to warn me ahead of time so I just don't bring my character. Because I'm perfectly fine making sure my roleplay isn't disruptive to an event too. But it needs to be clear.

Now, I'm also fine with certain things being considered OOC. The Wyvern Trials for one. The Duskruin wasn't explicitly stated as being OOC, but I chose to have my character be looking the other way when Necromancer characters were in the arena. It's not very fair otherwise. I'm also perfectly fine with learning OOC that a certain event would not be a good one to bring my character to, similar to what Thayet stated.

My suggestion would be to keep mentor events OOC - like the Wyvern Trials. It just works out better that way, IMO, unless you're planning on having every mentor PC be Necro-tolerant IC, and having the it be an issue with the Zoluren government about it... But that all just seems unnecessary. As I understood it, the IC portion of the Mentors is just a thin veil to cover the primarily OOC thing that they do. Having events with this weird mix of IC and OOC is just inviting trouble. The other alternative would be to make the mentors IC, but not involve Necromancers.

- Saragos

Since this keeps coming up. Here is the original post from the Wyvern Trials folder concerning Necromancers. Could one of you lovely epedia folks toss this up on the Wyvern page? Thanks!

http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/Events%20and%20Happenings%20in%20DragonRealms'%20Elanthia/The%20Wyvern%20Trials%20/view/15

-Team Wyvern

After a little bit of sleep, I want to clarify something. This is not an issue I have with the players who volunteer to be mentors (something I won't do). This policy puts THEM in a position where they have to set aside their RP (some are good at it) to do something fun for others and still be a part of the time consuming mentoring and teaching they do for the community. This is not really their fault at all.

~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.

>>While I think the rule of "no drama" works for mentor events as a whole, if the Necromancer Guild is an "advanced" guild, I think a resonable argument can be made that they've graduated well-past mentor events.

I agree with this and a lot of the other points being raised above. If the issue is disruption of Mentor events then I think an argument could be made that with Necromancers as the "advanced" Guild of the game, it is actually the widely known Necromancer showing up to said event that is the disruptive persona, not those attempting to flay them.

I think Necromancer players are well aware of what they're in for.

I guess I fail to see how this situation is so disturbing to a player's experience. I feel that the policy is asking players to turn a blind eye for a short period of time for the event. Our characters don't have to completely ignore their presence; we just need to make sure we don't respond right away during the event. Otherwise it disturbs the event just as much.

Since it's IC, I feel it's a good thing to RP out the situation at for a time where it's not disruptive to the entire event, usually at the event's conclusion. Why do we two need to prevent others from participating? We don't need bouncers at events. Otherwise we create an environment of exclusion that will ultimately goes against the idea of playing a multi-player game.

In order to be IC, you need to be willing to roll with whatever happens OOC.

Nikpack

>I guess I fail to see how this situation is so disturbing to a player's experience. I feel that the policy is asking players to turn a blind eye for a short period of time for the event. Our characters don't have to completely ignore their presence; we just need to make sure we don't respond right away during the event. Otherwise it disturbs the event just as much.

Because if you RP even a little you should be absolutely horrified at the presence of a perverse necromancer anywhere, much less at a holy week event honoring an Immortal. Part of the problem is, you have to ignore the existence of necromancers ingame constantly as it is to make the game remotely playable for you or any necromancer. Even limited to just an event, 1 to 3 hours at a stretch for your average event isn't a short period of time.

The other part of the problem is, very few people RP consistent worship of the Immortals because there is little reason to but that's a completely different thread.

---

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>>It also might be worth considering some kind of disguise spell/ability that would allow a Necromancer to show up to an event under a different name for reasons of peacefully participating. Give it a severe cooldown, make it drop if there's any attacking.

I'm not going to out-meta some of the personalities involved in this and I'm not willing to play a competitive game I can't win.

Like I said in an earlier thread, I'd like to know if the justice-level tools are proving insufficient, and if this wasn't in justice to begin with what we can do to make that a more reasonable option.

-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino

and I think spars and pvp events are usually held outside justice zones on the off chance someone accidentally gets a murder charge.

>It also might be worth considering some kind of disguise spell/ability that would allow a Necromancer to show up to an event under a different name for reasons of peacefully participating. Give it a severe cooldown, make it drop if there's any attacking.

>>I'm not going to out-meta some of the personalities involved in this and I'm not willing to play a competitive game I can't win.

Sorry Armifer. It seems that you were responding to something I said but I don't follow what you're saying.

I just want to be clear that I support Necromancers participating peacefully at Mentor/Order/general events as long as ICly there's a reason for others to not know they are Necromancers. I don't really care what that reason is, whether it's a thin veneer or not, although I realize that if it's too thin some players won't catch on.

I'll also note that I'm fine if there's a good IC reason the event coordinators don't care (e.g. Wyvern Trials). Occasional quasi-OOC events are okay with me too, such as Duskruin and festivals. Necros gotta have fun too. I just believe that Mentor events are not the place for this kind of OOC, specifically since they are meant to teach new players about the game and ideally about RP.

>>Like I said in an earlier thread, I'd like to know if the justice-level tools are proving insufficient, and if this wasn't in justice to begin with what we can do to make that a more reasonable option.

It would be nice if Mentors at least could hold events in non-justice and remove Necromancers. Due to their job of showing off many different facets of the game, it seems like we should allow them a large number of options for locations. For everyone else, I think there are good current options (Order houses, the new meeting rooms), but maybe a justice-protected arena for fighting would be good.


- Navesi

>>I guess I'm not entirely sure what this means.

Any sort of disguise system I invent is going to be imperfect due to the limitations I'm handed and mostly a RP prop. We've proven we as a general community cannot handle such situations with good faith, so I'm not inclined to put effort into it.

>>Thinking a bit deeper though, isn't the effect of using Justice to deal with the Necromancer basically saying: "No Necromancers at Mentor Events"? I mean, in that case, perhaps the policies surrounding Mentor events needs to be reviewed?

Not really? I'm stating where the boundary line currently is reinforced to deal with Necromancers and offering to listen to ways to make it more desirable to use that boundary when you deem it appropriate.

I mean, I'm assuming there's no real argument to the idea that "Openly known Necro blithely attending holy week celebrations" was the undesirable outcome which we're in look for a solution to. Is that wrong?

-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino

>>Any sort of disguise system I invent is going to be imperfect due to the limitations I'm handed and mostly a RP prop. We've proven we as a general community cannot handle such situations with good faith, so I'm not inclined to put effort into it.

Thanks. Sometimes I need the Barney-style explanation.

>>I mean, I'm assuming there's no real argument to the idea that "Openly known Necro blithely attending holy week celebrations" was the undesirable outcome which we're in look for a solution to. Is that wrong?

No, you're right. It's just that ultimately, if you institute any type of "justice works here against Necromancers." the end result is Necromancers won't show up at all anyways, because they're going to certainly be Hounded.

But if the Justice system is the tool we want to rely on, finding a way to allow a very limited use of it for Mentors is the thing to do, it seems. How that can be done in areas out of town and only during a Mentor event is a bit tricky, though.

So, let me take a few steps back and give you my working goals here.

I don't want Necromancers to be limited from all social interaction, only the kind that self-selects Necromancers out of it. That includes IC orders, which the Mentors are one.

While I am somewhat pessimistic about the nature of DR RP at times, the simple fact is I have to trust you guys to handle your business, because I do not have the authority, literal or moral, to dictate what you do with your time. I have set the stage up, I have given you the cliff notes of what Necromancers are all about, and it's up to you guys to either be faithful to it, throw it in the dustbin, or do something I haven't imagined yet.

I can give you tools to make these decisions effectively. But at the end of the day I need to take a step back from the IC Orders and let them be whatever they're going to be. Mentors are special in some of the tools they're given and in their mandate, but at the end of the day (as I've been reminded recently) they are an IC group and that means Their IC Business is gonna be Their IC Business in my eyes.

Okay that was kind of long and windy. tl;dr is that I don't want to dictate an on/off position for you, but I do want to give you the option to host your events somewhere that's relatively necro-free and other events where it's not, at your discretion.

-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino

>>Then we'll need a spot that's okay for spars but not for necromancers. Justice zones can give people disturbing the peace and murder charges.

Noted. I'm not sure how much work it'll take, but I can take a look.

-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino

>>Basically, how do we reinject maturity and good sportsmanship into a game that has, perhaps for a very long time now, sorely lacked both?

This was one of the major factors of me moving to Plat. I went in with the assumption that a group of 10-20 players were more likely to play nice (and in good faith) with each other because it would get mighty lonely for the one or two people who decided to play the game in bad faith. For what it's worth, this has been proven correct. From what I saw when playing TF in the past, they had a similar thing going for them. Everyone in those instances generally know each other and talk, as well, so its hard to be an under-the-radar jerk, too.

The main issue Prime has is that the audience is large enough that its small minority of players who tend to respond to things in bad faith is big enough to be their own group and/or the audience being big enough that those bad faith actors are generally unknown by the vast majority of the game. The 1-5% of bad faith actors in Plat and TF generally amounted to one or two people, while for Prime that's what... a couple dozen?

That said, I don't know how well that can be done in Prime. In Plat/TF, for better or worse, if someone was playing/acting in bad faith the instance made it very well known to them. I don't think Prime players could have a similar effect, and I don't think GMs can (or will be allowed to) take on the burden of doing that themselves.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

Not a justice-level tool, but I would personally love to see some sort of cleric (or potentially paladin) tool to create a consecrated ground specifically targeting necromancers. Could easily require time/rituals to set up (creating an altar, or what have you), and/or having those present sacrifice favors to get the Immortals attention.

~Aislynn

I'll start this wall of text off with saying that I've been a proponent of Necromancers having a Mentor for awhile. Yes, it's an advanced class, and yes the majority of its players will have the very basics of game mechanics already down, but Mentors are about more than that: planning and executing events, promoting community and cohesion, making basic information accessible, and (in theory) setting an example for other players in terms of behavior and roleplay. And even new Necromancer players need help with things sometimes, with both general mechanics ("What will out me on a metagame level?" is a common question for example) as well as the mechanics specific to the class which are not always intuitive. Additionally, Mentors as the sole alternate means besides Orders to having access to an official organization and all of the various privileges and tools that come with that. I've banged this drum before, but those resources are a big deal.

Mentors are in a difficult spot though. The IC organization has traditionally been presented as a thin veneer for the OOC function of the group, which is all of the things already mentioned. If Mentors are meant to be more IC than that, though, there needs to be some effort put into reconciling that with Necromancers attending Mentor events, much less having representation within the Lorethew Society. Either way, though, the current policy -- that players of any class are allowed to attend whatever Mentor event they like provided they aren't disrupting that specific event -- is untenable. The Lorethew Society being a serious, legal, sanctioned in-character group and Necromancers being allowed to attend any IC Mentor event are mutually exclusive concepts. That policy is utterly unreasonable and untenable without redefining either the Lorethew Society or Necromancers, and keeping it as-is places undue strain on both roleplayers within the broader community and Mentors themselves who find themselves forced to tolerate PCs their character never would otherwise.

Does this all mean you have to scrap the entire policy? Absolutely not. The policy was created with good intentions and with an eye to inclusion and ensuring that everybody gets a fair shot at being social and participating in events and contests, and also likely predates Necromancers as a guild entirely. These are excellent principles to stand on, it's only the details and execution that needs work. In a nutshell though, I think it's entirely fair to say "you cannot attend these kinds of events without potentially serious IC consequences including expulsion or death, but we will make an effort at having events you can attend which are more off the beaten path." Which...goes back to why I think there should be a Necromancer Mentor, in part. There are ways to make this work ICly, I think, but that's probably a discussion for another thread.

Armifer brought up the question of what kind of tools and responses are appropriate in this situation as well, where you have a well-attended official event that is held outside of a mechanical justice area but which is still pretty urban. Justice areas in my mind are a reflection of the notion that guards are regularly patrolling through there; that a particular area is not mechanically a justice area or ICly is not regularly patrolled does not mean it isn't urban or more or less within the jurisdiction of a city. In that situation, I think arrests and Houndings are still appropriate responses from GMs supervising. Good judgment should be used regarding whether a Necromancer can be considered "high profile" enough to warrant more extreme responses or whether the situation itself is chaotic enough to warrant letting it slide (invasions are classic examples), and I'm in favor of "warning shots" or other tacit offers to let the person twirl their mustache and flee into the night either way.

Ultimately though the upshot of claiming you wish to roleplay a prominent, loud, in-your-face villain is that you don't get to turn around and have tea parties or play in archery contests among polite society. In those situations, arrests, deportation, Hounding, and plain murder are actually acknowledgements and affirmations of the role that person has claimed they wish to have. If anything, it's disrespectful to the concept of a genuinely outspoken villainous character to simply ignore them or giggle behind your hand and wink while you call them a dastardly fiend. It's kinda like playing a heel in wrestling; the worst thing the crowd can do isn't booing, because making the crowd boo is actually the goal of a heel. The worst reaction a crowd can have to a heel is to do nothing at all and remain utterly silent.

Necromancers and other villainous types have a responsibility in all of this too, which is to treat the opposition like a legitimate threat and not lean on out-of-character metagame knowledge that policy and game mechanics protect you from serious lasting consequences. We have a responsibility to acknowledge that our very presence is varying degrees of contentious and has the potential to utterly derail scenes, the same as an Inquisitor strolling into a Team Bad meeting would be. And when it comes to pre-planned events that other players have put time and energy into hosting, we have a responsibility to respect that time and energy and not do things that we may reasonably conclude will stall or halt these events without running it by the organizers first.

I think a lot of people appreciate both sides of this and are doing their best. I know the Mentors at the event in question were doing their best, and I know a lot of people were and have in the past been put into tough spots because it's hard to know how to make things work for everyone sometimes. But I do agree with the sentiment that the gradual reintroduction of mutual respect and good sportsmanship into the broader community needs to start somewhere and really what better place than the various GMs and players who are ostensibly community leaders?

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Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com

"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs