<No, I'm not playing musical chairs with all of the Barbarian abilities. Need to find something else for it to do.>

Is boosting armor stats out of the question?

Contemplation providing a +1 - +(cap) boost to Protection and/or Absorption of whatever armor you are wearing at the time of performing the meditation (if that's even code-able).

Meditation being that it takes you some moments to better attune yourself to your armor and only works on the armor you are wearing at that moment because you're attuning to that specific piece.

Nobody wants the shield buff as a berserk. Just pointing that out. I get the stance on changing too much, but since our best defensive ability is going away, it seems like a reasonable request to move the shield buff to save some usefulness.

<<Nobody wants the shield buff as a berserk.>>

Out of curiosity, how come?

Barbarians just want everything to be cheap, easy and powerful :P Berserks should be quite usable in 3.1. I have no problem keeping one of the buffs as a Berserk.

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

I think it's a stretch to say we want everything cheap and easy when we're operating under one of the most expensive systems, skills per slots (or so it feels), and we're asking for the shield bonus to not be a berserk. When you say berserks are going to be quite usable, what does that mean? They are very short duration now, which does make a defensive buff very eh. The last time I used the shield buff was test 3.0, because the durations are too short at too high of an IF cost. I thought berserks were designed for those pinch moments, yet we're told that if we don't have our (defensive) buffs up, we're going to die. It just seems that a berserk is not the most suitable vehicle for a shield bonus. My other concern is that berserks are still kind of 2.0ish where overall, they're pretty undesirable. Sure, a few barbs may use a zerk here or there, but I doubt many barbarians are using them as their primary buffing system, especially because they are too costly (IF) for the buffs they provide and last so shortly.

In 2.0, the only times I ever used berserks were when I just could not win a fight at melee (or the fight was going too slowly). There was an incredibly small window of opportunity to win, or you were toast. They were very effective last ditch combat buffs.

We're not saying you are doing a horrible job or have failed us, so please don't take these as scathing criticisms. It just seems a good time to reflect on what is working and what's not, and perhaps make some adjustments. If contemplation is changing, and it is costing multiple slots for multiple buffs, why not just make it buff the entire armor skillset (it basically is), including shield and defending? It's already buffing the armors, so it's not like some crazy stretch. Even if you exclude defending, I think actual armors (shield, plate, brigandine, chain and light armors) would be a reasonable setup. You could drop Tornado (basic) to a 1 slot berserk that only buffs stamina. Just some ideas.

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"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade

<<False.>>

There's always one. You do recognize you're in the vast minority, right?

<<In this very representative and scientific sampling I'm outnumbered 2 to 1 (unless you count Kodius, in which case it's 2v2). Even if I concede that my opinion is in the minority, does that matter? Appeals to popularity aren't convincing.>>

Do you read/post the barb folders much? Did you miss the initial multipage request for the shield buff to move from a berserk when it was initially revealed?

The argument you're choosing to ignore is that other guilds don't have to struggle to maintain their defensive buffs in common training situations. Placing our shield buff as a berserk necessarily means that it won't be used in training situations, because of how berserks work. Parry is useless, which is why there is so much talk about changing it. I'd trade moving the shield buff over for losing a parry buff entirely.

At circles 150s and up, berserks are still too costly for long session training rotations.. at least in my experience.

<<Back to contemplation: Kodius is in the best position to judge whether armor skill buffs are valuable. If they are, then I'd suggest adding Defending to the skills buffed and leave it at that. It's very, very difficult as a player to know what my armor skills are doing outside of hindrance, so I don't have a strong opinion. But I agree with others that it's incredibly nice to have a strong defensive boost as a meditation.>>

He's already posted some general info on armor ranks in the past, and judging from what he's said an armor rank boost doesn't really sound like it'd do much at all, especially relative to a direct defensive skill buff.

>>For whatever it's worth, Tornado generally lasts ~5 minutes for me. The IF I spend is regained in ~2 minutes. And yes, I roar at every enemy.

That's pretty lame for a shield buff. It'd be acceptable for a more powerful weapon buff. When I think of berserks, I don't think of defensive stuff. I think of going crazy destroying things.

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"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade

> When I think of berserks, I don't think of defensive stuff. I think of going crazy destroying things.

I don't disagree, but I also think of this;
http://www.badhaven.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/836137-punisher_born_super.jpg

And the ruthless whisper of hatred that lets you continue through stab and gunshot wounds, exhaustion, and fear. Berserking has a defensive side, although not in the 'wait behind a shield' way of things.

<<I don't recall. Was this prior to 3.0 release? I'll ask again though - why does this matter?>>

It's indicative of the overall sentiment about where the buff is placed. Something you question.

<<So... ok. Then your argument isn't "I don't like berserks". Instead it's "I don't like berserks and they're unique to barbarians. Also I really like shield." Please correct me if I'm wrong.>>

No. You, for whatever reason, chose to focus on a segment of the argument.

The full argument is A) Since other guilds don't have severe restrictions on the efficient use of their defensive buffs there's no need to place them on Barbarians, and B) Placing the buff as a berserk is severely limiting its use (placing a severe restriction on its use).

You got 5 minutes from a berserk, and what, 25 from a form or meditation? Berserks are, by design, not something we're supposed to be using extensively in combat. They were sold as short duration, high cost, "oh crap" sort of abilities. Placing a defensive buff in that category and nowhere else, is limiting... by design.

<<2. With reduced costs, our masteries, and analyze flame, berserks are much easier to use in 3.1.>>

Still a lot more restrictive than meditations and forms by a wide margin, especially outside of combat.

<<But this has less to do with berserks and more to do with the 7 ability design decision.>>

I might agree with you here, but my feeling is that there's no chance this is getting changed, so...

How about a little bit more consistent access to a shield buff?

>>If a shield buff only lasts ~5 minutes

Just tested mine and it lasted ~8 minutes in combat. That's an unuseable defensive ability in my eyes, except under extremely controlled circumstances. I probably would only use it in a spar.

Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons

I'm finding it curious to hear that a short lived buff (whose length is being lengthened in 3.1 anyway) is a detriment to its use. Younger characters can't cast 20+minute spells starting up; if every time you run through a routine you reapply the berserk. As it is, I think forms last too long. Surely a happy medium can be met?

Sort of; it'd be like if high level spellcasters had access to buffs that they could instantly apply (no prep time, capped spell), that only lasted about 8m. My hope is the changes to 3.1 will help things out, but I don't think berserks in their current form are TOTALLY broken?

>>They were sold as short duration, high cost, "oh crap" sort of abilities.

Not really, no. They are intended to be used often, unlike the Berserks of 2.0.

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

>> Do berserk length times grow with skill or do they cap pretty early in terms of augmentation skill?

They seem to cap out for me at 10 minutes.

Honestly, it's felt like something was fundamentally flawed with IF since it's release - a sentiment I've had echoed back to me by almost every high level barbarian I've talked to.

I have a very hard time believing masteries weren't figured into the original Barbarian calculations and later subtracted to 'flesh out' Expertise. Why?

They make a MASSIVE difference.

With Titan/Tribalist/Powermonger, it's like receiving a promotion to a prestige class. It's like suddenly noticing there was a 'suck' switch that came along with Inner Fire, and through that realization - being able to turn it off.

It sounds like I'm overstating this, but I'm not. Compare pre/post masteries and tell me you aren't completely blown away.

There were some people who quit over how terrible IF was at 3.0's release. I'm not complaining, but a tremendous amount of griping/raging/complaining could have been averted if masteries had been released with 3.0 as opposed to 3.1.

I would advise the GMs to never hold out on these kinds of releases.

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IM: Dannyboy00001111

"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."

>>They were sold as short duration, high cost, "oh crap" sort of abilities.

Kodius says, "Wheras forms last for an hour or so at the high end, berserks are very short."
Kodius says, "Panic button type of abilities."

This was during the barbarian meeting, and what people are citing when they keep saying what they keep saying about zerks. I still think it's more sensible to move the shield buff to contemplation and put something else with Tsunami. Hell, turn Tsunami into the other weapon buff (bonus to lower stats and balance or whatever).

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"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade

Just to make this a more expansive point, berserks are essentially the same as battle spells for magic users: fast to pull off (battle spells take roughly half the time to cast compared to a normal spell), but short in duration (cap out around 10 minutes).

As a concept, battle spells/berserks are cool, but the problem is that some of the things battle spells/berserks provide aren't things that people sometimes want up; they're things people always want up.

I don't think people necessarily see the value in being able to toss up a battle spell/berserk much faster than a normal spell/form if the sacrifice is that they're 1/3rd - 1/4th the duration they could be.

I would guess that the counterpoint to the "but this is something I always want up" is "that's why it's a battle spell/berserk, because we don't want you to always keep it up without it being slightly annoying to do so."

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

Maybe switch Tornado and Tenacity, so Tornado is an instant but short lived general defensive + stamina buff, while Tenacity is a shield buff?

I'm not sure what your issue is with that proposal? Can you elaborate? My thinking is 'a buff we want to see up all the time' (a shield buff) should be transitioned to a longer lasting ability of ours (meditations), while 'a buff that's best for emergency boosting' (if Tenacity could be said to be as much) should be transitioned to a shorter lasting ability.

Tenacity is the best thing we have going for us, IMO. Shortening its duration is a horrible idea.

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"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade