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Non-storyline related, what kind of invasions do you guys like?
What're types of invaders do you prefer? What kind of tactics do you prefer from the GM's? ( young level waves, then move higher, etc )
Do you prefer mood messaging before and after the invasions are done?
Etc, etc.
-GM Kenstrom-
The First Male MHO Guru Ever
Wehnimer's Landing Guru
Giantmen Guru
The Ultimate MHO Guide
(www.gemstonemho.pbworks.com)
GS4-KENSTROM
SHAD0WS0NGS
Re: What Kind Do You Like?
09/13/2011 03:27 PM CDT
if I can ever get my pike back from the guy who was enchanting it and then closed his account, I'd totally be up for more demons! I <3 demons. I was making that pike specifically to kill demons, i.e. 8x and blessed.
ARCHIGEEK
EULOGIA
Re: What Kind Do You Like?
09/14/2011 01:02 AM CDT
>>Non-storyline related, what kind of invasions do you guys like? <<
Big mean flying demons that require 8x blessed weapons to hit.
Smart creatures that can take a lot of damage, and not just ones with huge DSes who are invulnerable.
Small numbers of really difficult creatures that I have to stalk and be strategic about, as opposed to large swarms I just have to slaughter.
And please make sure your big bads don't have 600+ melee DS while having 120 ranged DS. That is an annoyingly common occurrence.
As a capped player who gets bored with the grind, fun invasions really mean a lot to me. They get my blood pumping!
-E
Big mean flying demons that require 8x blessed weapons to hit.
Smart creatures that can take a lot of damage, and not just ones with huge DSes who are invulnerable.
Small numbers of really difficult creatures that I have to stalk and be strategic about, as opposed to large swarms I just have to slaughter.
And please make sure your big bads don't have 600+ melee DS while having 120 ranged DS. That is an annoyingly common occurrence.
As a capped player who gets bored with the grind, fun invasions really mean a lot to me. They get my blood pumping!
-E
SHAD0WS0NGS
Re: What Kind Do You Like?
09/14/2011 01:10 AM CDT
I always liked the silly invasions, too. Especially as an sorcerer, it's fun to animate weird stuff. Friend of mine had an animated reindeer for a while after Christmas. I was totally going to animate a giant black goat, once upon a time, but since it was during an invasion someone else looted it. You could have billy goats and giant wolves invade.. leprechauns.. dark assassins again(I still have my black-handled dirk).. etc.
JOEKRYSTEL
Re: What Kind Do You Like?
09/14/2011 12:57 PM CDT
I like any invasion in general, but there are some things that can put it beyond just simple fun and into a bit of in game personal history I'll remember for years (or decades). What I like is an invasion that fits into some sort of larger strategic framework and uses as few "cheap" tactics as possible. For ease I will try and mostly bullet point these.
What I love.
*multi-day invasions. Sieges, occupations, nightly incursions of undead minions. The longer the better, especially if it does wonderful things like requires hiding in buildings at night (I <3 Vishmiir) or grouping up just to get from resting to the bank (WON/RR/Krolvin with claids). Days of fighting that deplete balista stores, folks grouping up to run to the shops for more arrows, all that jazz.
*Well telegraphed invasions. I like knowing something is happening. This can either be in the form of repeated invasions (like every night at sundown), or preceded by horn blasts, quakes, rain for a day or so.
*Invasions with an actual progression. Looking back on the great GM Crusade, I remember invasions that started well away from town and slowly made there way to the gates, with heroic defenders fighting the whole way. This is way more fun than just dropping 50 mein golems in TSC. This also gives actual use to those towers that even low level folks can use.
*Goals we can make short of story events. I like to be able to do something of effect on the fight, even if not directly involved in the storyline half. I want towers and catapults to burn (loved this one), generals to kill, marchlords to disarm.
*Waves in increasing level. Back to the Vishmiir (The iconic good invasion storyline for me), discrete waves of foes that let everyone into the fun. Mix in the classic level independent killers (boilers, cone reflectors, worms, melee immune foes) to keep the big folks from stopping all over the small fry.
*Enemy gear to collect. I have a locker full of coffinwood shields and twisted broadswords. From lowly little gear all the way up to marchlord claids and orcbane weapons (another great idea there). I like having souvenirs. ++ for things like mandis crystal shards. They gave forgers a new material, worked in the storyline and produced long term benefits people like (the cool weapon scripts).
Things I hate.
*GM tricks. I point-you die effects, mayors who cannot be targeted, struggles for life (except on trolls), DS of 30,000 on a humanoid character, CS of 2000... If you want your story related guy to not be killed, only show him in room messages or after his 30 blood golems slaughter everyone and he is chatting to bodies. Just use little generals and such for the day to day affairs so we can kill them for the joy of seeing a new named one have to be there next time.
*Ignoring town walls and defenses. No problem if it makes sense (like a rabble forming in town) but don't just drop guys in the middle of town without preamble. And if you do need to bypass the gates and towers, do it with at least a decent IC rational. Please no more waves of foes going past sleeping guards for the 10th day in a row. Better yet, let the fighting outside happen for an hour and then bring in (with some good flavor text to show it happening) an airship full of corsairs to drop from the sky. This comment can be ignored for any non-walled local.
*no safe places. The best invasions I have ever been in had someplace the defenders could hide, regroup, spell up, or run to. Logoth is often this in world wide fights, but tables, temples, stores. They can be contested at times, but avoid attacking inside them whole-sale.
*All the same immunity critters. This was a major issue just after the move to GS4. Every single invasion had like 90% of the big foes with absurd melee defense (like 850) and a bolt DS of like 100. Use a mixture of forces that will give everyone a target to go after and also something to run from.
*Not enough invasions. Give me more death!
AIM: GS4Menos
>Here lies the formless world we´re living in
>Gravity is finally giving in
>High altitudes and still upward we go
>I was never meant to lead but to follow
What I love.
*multi-day invasions. Sieges, occupations, nightly incursions of undead minions. The longer the better, especially if it does wonderful things like requires hiding in buildings at night (I <3 Vishmiir) or grouping up just to get from resting to the bank (WON/RR/Krolvin with claids). Days of fighting that deplete balista stores, folks grouping up to run to the shops for more arrows, all that jazz.
*Well telegraphed invasions. I like knowing something is happening. This can either be in the form of repeated invasions (like every night at sundown), or preceded by horn blasts, quakes, rain for a day or so.
*Invasions with an actual progression. Looking back on the great GM Crusade, I remember invasions that started well away from town and slowly made there way to the gates, with heroic defenders fighting the whole way. This is way more fun than just dropping 50 mein golems in TSC. This also gives actual use to those towers that even low level folks can use.
*Goals we can make short of story events. I like to be able to do something of effect on the fight, even if not directly involved in the storyline half. I want towers and catapults to burn (loved this one), generals to kill, marchlords to disarm.
*Waves in increasing level. Back to the Vishmiir (The iconic good invasion storyline for me), discrete waves of foes that let everyone into the fun. Mix in the classic level independent killers (boilers, cone reflectors, worms, melee immune foes) to keep the big folks from stopping all over the small fry.
*Enemy gear to collect. I have a locker full of coffinwood shields and twisted broadswords. From lowly little gear all the way up to marchlord claids and orcbane weapons (another great idea there). I like having souvenirs. ++ for things like mandis crystal shards. They gave forgers a new material, worked in the storyline and produced long term benefits people like (the cool weapon scripts).
Things I hate.
*GM tricks. I point-you die effects, mayors who cannot be targeted, struggles for life (except on trolls), DS of 30,000 on a humanoid character, CS of 2000... If you want your story related guy to not be killed, only show him in room messages or after his 30 blood golems slaughter everyone and he is chatting to bodies. Just use little generals and such for the day to day affairs so we can kill them for the joy of seeing a new named one have to be there next time.
*Ignoring town walls and defenses. No problem if it makes sense (like a rabble forming in town) but don't just drop guys in the middle of town without preamble. And if you do need to bypass the gates and towers, do it with at least a decent IC rational. Please no more waves of foes going past sleeping guards for the 10th day in a row. Better yet, let the fighting outside happen for an hour and then bring in (with some good flavor text to show it happening) an airship full of corsairs to drop from the sky. This comment can be ignored for any non-walled local.
*no safe places. The best invasions I have ever been in had someplace the defenders could hide, regroup, spell up, or run to. Logoth is often this in world wide fights, but tables, temples, stores. They can be contested at times, but avoid attacking inside them whole-sale.
*All the same immunity critters. This was a major issue just after the move to GS4. Every single invasion had like 90% of the big foes with absurd melee defense (like 850) and a bolt DS of like 100. Use a mixture of forces that will give everyone a target to go after and also something to run from.
*Not enough invasions. Give me more death!
AIM: GS4Menos
>Here lies the formless world we´re living in
>Gravity is finally giving in
>High altitudes and still upward we go
>I was never meant to lead but to follow
LORDEVARIN
Re: What Kind Do You Like?
09/15/2011 07:08 AM CDT
I think Menos hit on many of the same points I have. For the most part, I can find enjoyment in any invasion, assuming it does not break the game's genre with it's nonsense or OOG references.
Things that do ruin invasions are attacks which ignore existing mechanics, creatures GM controlled or otherwise, which attack with a force that cannot be reasonably defended against, or stuff like using scarabs to kill people. These types of things just make me want to log out. I understand that GMs may want a way to deal with those disrupting their invasion or storyline, but circumventing mechanics seems like the wrong way of going about it.
Things that do ruin invasions are attacks which ignore existing mechanics, creatures GM controlled or otherwise, which attack with a force that cannot be reasonably defended against, or stuff like using scarabs to kill people. These types of things just make me want to log out. I understand that GMs may want a way to deal with those disrupting their invasion or storyline, but circumventing mechanics seems like the wrong way of going about it.
CURDJ3
DONOHO
Re: What Kind Do You Like?
09/15/2011 01:56 PM CDT
What I don't like is any invasion creature that disarms or curses. I hadn't seen one for the last 6 years, and wouldn't you know that when I finally got the courage to bring out my good stuff after that period of time one of the stupid critters in the summoner invasions cursed me and I missed dropping both my weapons in the screen scroll (thanks again for grabbing them Metadi). I got out of the Landing storyline after that happened. Invasions are the time our characters get to act like heroes, having to use my vultite toothpick with a +2 health enhancive is not nearly as cool as using my 30 foot long materia blade.
Sheer fear (this is usually a mistake and accidentally left on)
Mixing undead and living creatures together. One or the other please.
Things I like: Waves or zones. Let the youngins fight near their level, for short term invasions use specific messaging (A dwarf war party saunters by mentioning that frost giants and other similar invaders are attacking the Thyril Pen).
Enemies with lots of hit points and low defenses. Another way of letting younger-ish people fight in an invasion. 250 DS, 180TD, 20,000HP. Troll king like ability to not die to crits, but crittable. Invasions are an appropriate area of the game to use attrition based enemies.
Another thing I'd like to see is invasion creatures with the Shan cleric transference type ability. I don't know how hard it is to code, but that would be cool and scary to have them fogging to random people in town.
Special invulnerabilities. Anti-magic or anti-weapon invaders. This keeps one Droit or Rimalon from wiping out the whole invasion in one fell swoop.
When creatures break through the gate I like to see them all over town, not just in a few rooms. I don't know the genning mechanics exactly but one way I've seen this done pretty well was genning a bunch of creatures in one spot that really liked to move room to room every round. They spread very quickly.
Vathors. MORE VATHORS!!!
Drew/Chiv
Proud inventor of the Droit ballista and the Droitapult.
Invasion canary in the coal mine.
Sheer fear (this is usually a mistake and accidentally left on)
Mixing undead and living creatures together. One or the other please.
Things I like: Waves or zones. Let the youngins fight near their level, for short term invasions use specific messaging (A dwarf war party saunters by mentioning that frost giants and other similar invaders are attacking the Thyril Pen).
Enemies with lots of hit points and low defenses. Another way of letting younger-ish people fight in an invasion. 250 DS, 180TD, 20,000HP. Troll king like ability to not die to crits, but crittable. Invasions are an appropriate area of the game to use attrition based enemies.
Another thing I'd like to see is invasion creatures with the Shan cleric transference type ability. I don't know how hard it is to code, but that would be cool and scary to have them fogging to random people in town.
Special invulnerabilities. Anti-magic or anti-weapon invaders. This keeps one Droit or Rimalon from wiping out the whole invasion in one fell swoop.
When creatures break through the gate I like to see them all over town, not just in a few rooms. I don't know the genning mechanics exactly but one way I've seen this done pretty well was genning a bunch of creatures in one spot that really liked to move room to room every round. They spread very quickly.
Vathors. MORE VATHORS!!!
Drew/Chiv
Proud inventor of the Droit ballista and the Droitapult.
Invasion canary in the coal mine.
TUCKERS
Re: What Kind Do You Like?
09/15/2011 02:51 PM CDT
No, no more vathors. Vathors are mean.
Kidding aside, I enjoy the creatures with special abilities. My favorite invasion "monster" of all time is the v'reen morph. I'm sure challenging to mechanically update, but there was something cool from RP perspective of them assuming the visage and characteristics of a player as well as just mechanically trying to fight yourself.
I agree that disarms and curses should be turned off in invasions, simply because there's so much screen scroll it would be difficult to notice if you were disarmed/cursed until it was too late and you're a smoldering pile on the floor. Frequently in invasions, I'll die and I need to spend 5 minutes scrolling up to see what killed me and how (yes, I'm aware highlights would help with this).
I like the waves/zones too, especially with a progressive ramp-up in difficulty, so characters of various levels know when to hang it up and heal/raise/man ballistas. One of the best parts of the past set of invasions was that different types of siege engines were "manned" by different levels of creatures...so capped characters targeted siege towers and lower-level characters targeted catapults or ballistas.
I would like more special invulnerabilities and some capitalization on bane weapons. One of the best upgrades to forging was the ability to forge bane weapons for Mandis Crystals. It's likely a mechnical pipe dream, but it would be nice to have different sets of gear forged for different types of invasions. Trolls? Break out the trollbanes.
Hell, bring back Mandis Crystals...or Mandis Crystals with less power...or something similar...there's been several invasions throughout time where magic was "nullified" in various fashions for various reasons. The squares had to locate, find, and destroy the source of the "nullification" and then the casters could cut loose with Cone of Lightning and splashy spells. Or have some sort of generator that shields creatures from all attacks except magic until casters break/destroy/kill it.
I'm sure a lot of these mechanically complicated, but it's a wish list. I LOVE the idea of creatures (say the summoners...) that transference to someone in town that has escaped them.
I do think creatures should branch out from just North and West Ring Road. Gen some in front of the temple or over the bridge near playershops.
Another mechanic from recent invasions I really liked was, somewhat like above, there was a way to "stop" certain segments of the invasion. We destroyed the summoning altar and the demons went away. It would be neat to do this on a smaller level. Kill the 5-6 bandit captains and the bandits stop genning. Granted, people would JUST target those creatures...but they could be buried behind the frontlines and you could struggle to figure out how many there were.
Kidding aside, I enjoy the creatures with special abilities. My favorite invasion "monster" of all time is the v'reen morph. I'm sure challenging to mechanically update, but there was something cool from RP perspective of them assuming the visage and characteristics of a player as well as just mechanically trying to fight yourself.
I agree that disarms and curses should be turned off in invasions, simply because there's so much screen scroll it would be difficult to notice if you were disarmed/cursed until it was too late and you're a smoldering pile on the floor. Frequently in invasions, I'll die and I need to spend 5 minutes scrolling up to see what killed me and how (yes, I'm aware highlights would help with this).
I like the waves/zones too, especially with a progressive ramp-up in difficulty, so characters of various levels know when to hang it up and heal/raise/man ballistas. One of the best parts of the past set of invasions was that different types of siege engines were "manned" by different levels of creatures...so capped characters targeted siege towers and lower-level characters targeted catapults or ballistas.
I would like more special invulnerabilities and some capitalization on bane weapons. One of the best upgrades to forging was the ability to forge bane weapons for Mandis Crystals. It's likely a mechnical pipe dream, but it would be nice to have different sets of gear forged for different types of invasions. Trolls? Break out the trollbanes.
Hell, bring back Mandis Crystals...or Mandis Crystals with less power...or something similar...there's been several invasions throughout time where magic was "nullified" in various fashions for various reasons. The squares had to locate, find, and destroy the source of the "nullification" and then the casters could cut loose with Cone of Lightning and splashy spells. Or have some sort of generator that shields creatures from all attacks except magic until casters break/destroy/kill it.
I'm sure a lot of these mechanically complicated, but it's a wish list. I LOVE the idea of creatures (say the summoners...) that transference to someone in town that has escaped them.
I do think creatures should branch out from just North and West Ring Road. Gen some in front of the temple or over the bridge near playershops.
Another mechanic from recent invasions I really liked was, somewhat like above, there was a way to "stop" certain segments of the invasion. We destroyed the summoning altar and the demons went away. It would be neat to do this on a smaller level. Kill the 5-6 bandit captains and the bandits stop genning. Granted, people would JUST target those creatures...but they could be buried behind the frontlines and you could struggle to figure out how many there were.
ALSTHAR
Re: What Kind Do You Like?
09/15/2011 02:56 PM CDT
Was it when auch destroyed solhaven that during the occupation in town different level ranges of invaders spawned in different areas? Either way, that's not a bad idea so even low level folks can kinda try to do something.
SHAD0WS0NGS
Re: What Kind Do You Like?
09/15/2011 08:17 PM CDT
I vote for an invasion of tiny leprechauns that, if you kill and loot, will have a 5% change of dropping their pot 'o gold which can then be turned in for a single merchant service, pls. That or make them all look like Jeno
ALSTHAR
Re: What Kind Do You Like?
09/16/2011 11:35 AM CDT
I <3 my shillelagh i got from a leprechaun invasion back in the day.
i kinda miss being blunt+shield with my wizard so i could swing the shillelagh around.
i kinda miss being blunt+shield with my wizard so i could swing the shillelagh around.
LORDKRIP
Re: What Kind Do You Like?
10/08/2011 01:19 PM CDT
I pretty much love any invasion...
What I dislike are creatures who are immune to certain spells, without any logic behind it. This frequently occurs with relation to 125, and a few others, but less so them.
You cast 125 (or whatever other spell(s) were chosen for the creature to be immune to) at said invasion creature, and some script is activated where in it "evades" the cast and your character looks like a retard.
That's just sloppy, IMO.
I also dislike it when NPCs are given this kind of scripting, in general. I can understand the need for it sometimes, but I honestly think if it's going to be that way, it should just be that way across the board. Not +1000 DS, and scripts to make casters look retarded. Make everyone look retarded equally. =P
Peace cannot be kept by force; it can only be achieved by understanding. - Albert Einstein
What I dislike are creatures who are immune to certain spells, without any logic behind it. This frequently occurs with relation to 125, and a few others, but less so them.
You cast 125 (or whatever other spell(s) were chosen for the creature to be immune to) at said invasion creature, and some script is activated where in it "evades" the cast and your character looks like a retard.
That's just sloppy, IMO.
I also dislike it when NPCs are given this kind of scripting, in general. I can understand the need for it sometimes, but I honestly think if it's going to be that way, it should just be that way across the board. Not +1000 DS, and scripts to make casters look retarded. Make everyone look retarded equally. =P
Peace cannot be kept by force; it can only be achieved by understanding. - Albert Einstein
WOLFES2
Re: What Kind Do You Like?
10/11/2011 08:39 AM CDT
Come on now, have you ever tried to perform a CMAN on a critter/NPC and been stuck in RT for 20 secs because the endroll on your attempt was a -600 or something? That is pretty much the equivalent.
>>What I dislike are creatures who are immune to certain spells, without any logic behind it.
I certainly agree with and get behind your make it plausible comment earlier on there.
I am up for ALL invasions and think there should be more in all cities/towns on Elanthia. As adventurers, we should be/are a thorn in the side of monsters and eventually, they should follow us back to town and try to make us pay for wiping out generations worth of frost giants, illoke and shan. There is still a void I am seeing in today's GM staff. They don't appear to like invading towns. I suspect it could be the complaints of fairness, unable to partake or wahhh omg I can't go hunt because I die when stepping outside the gate or away from a table. The player base complains too much about them, maybe that's it.
Sustained invasions of the graveyard by undead not only makes sense but should occur randomly every few months. Drop age appropriate undead by the gate into the graveyard levels 15-25, then as you move slightly deeper, drop the bigger undead. Keep the areas cordoned off as they already are, and don't force the invasion any deeper than maybe where ghoul masters are...
Trolls at the gate. Frost giants running through Icemule. Vortaz leaping the walls or Constructs beating down the gates...whatever it may be. There's just not enough of it any more.
Kenstrom has learned how to perform longer term invasions. They don't need a storyline to cover a weeks time. Make the story simple, "you've hunted our homes for a decade, now we hunt yours!" Invade for a week with age appropriate areas, once a night make the invasion critters push to the town walls and perhaps inside the gates. Add some random room messaging in town to show elves, gnomes, halflings, etc. being carried off to feed the hungry beasts and after a week, end it with some elder monster grunting, "we've fed well on your city." Then kick up the items drops in nearby hunting grounds for a week in response to show items that were stolen from the city siege.
~Galenok
>>What I dislike are creatures who are immune to certain spells, without any logic behind it.
I certainly agree with and get behind your make it plausible comment earlier on there.
I am up for ALL invasions and think there should be more in all cities/towns on Elanthia. As adventurers, we should be/are a thorn in the side of monsters and eventually, they should follow us back to town and try to make us pay for wiping out generations worth of frost giants, illoke and shan. There is still a void I am seeing in today's GM staff. They don't appear to like invading towns. I suspect it could be the complaints of fairness, unable to partake or wahhh omg I can't go hunt because I die when stepping outside the gate or away from a table. The player base complains too much about them, maybe that's it.
Sustained invasions of the graveyard by undead not only makes sense but should occur randomly every few months. Drop age appropriate undead by the gate into the graveyard levels 15-25, then as you move slightly deeper, drop the bigger undead. Keep the areas cordoned off as they already are, and don't force the invasion any deeper than maybe where ghoul masters are...
Trolls at the gate. Frost giants running through Icemule. Vortaz leaping the walls or Constructs beating down the gates...whatever it may be. There's just not enough of it any more.
Kenstrom has learned how to perform longer term invasions. They don't need a storyline to cover a weeks time. Make the story simple, "you've hunted our homes for a decade, now we hunt yours!" Invade for a week with age appropriate areas, once a night make the invasion critters push to the town walls and perhaps inside the gates. Add some random room messaging in town to show elves, gnomes, halflings, etc. being carried off to feed the hungry beasts and after a week, end it with some elder monster grunting, "we've fed well on your city." Then kick up the items drops in nearby hunting grounds for a week in response to show items that were stolen from the city siege.
~Galenok
ARSENAULTL1
Re: What Kind Do You Like?
11/29/2011 02:27 PM CST
>>Non-storyline related?
YES
>>What're types of invaders do you prefer? What kind of tactics do you prefer from the GM's? ( young level waves, then move higher, etc )
Just for fun types. Silly types (during holidays type of thing). Banaltra one was good (except the ending). Week long wars. I really hate the story lines, they just don't have enough room for enough people and they always seem to involve the same people.
>>Do you prefer mood messaging before and after the invasions are done?
Yes.
This isn't normal!
What do you mean this isn't normal!?!
This is way worse!!
YES
>>What're types of invaders do you prefer? What kind of tactics do you prefer from the GM's? ( young level waves, then move higher, etc )
Just for fun types. Silly types (during holidays type of thing). Banaltra one was good (except the ending). Week long wars. I really hate the story lines, they just don't have enough room for enough people and they always seem to involve the same people.
>>Do you prefer mood messaging before and after the invasions are done?
Yes.
This isn't normal!
What do you mean this isn't normal!?!
This is way worse!!
LORDOHR
Re: What Kind Do You Like?
07/22/2012 10:06 PM CDT
Just wanted to say thanks for the awesome Krolvin event Kenstrom, this kind of story line and invasion is what makes Gemstone different from all the other MMO out there, keep up the good work.
p.s Hope they don't lock you up in GH lounge too long for crashing the game twice :)
Ohr
A Ranger is Never Truly Lost.
p.s Hope they don't lock you up in GH lounge too long for crashing the game twice :)
Ohr
A Ranger is Never Truly Lost.
FIREPHOENIX
GS4-KENSTROM
Re: What Kind Do You Like?
07/31/2012 05:48 PM CDT
Thank you very much! I'm glad most folks enjoyed it. I know there's bound to be some frustrations from time to time ( especially an epic finale oops...le sigh )
The good news is, I glean new ideas/strategies from every storyline. So my ultimate goal is to provide such an immersive experience that every profession, every level can participate, perhaps even in unique ways. Unfortunately, I've come to the point where it's going to require some coding, so I've got to finish that up asap!
It's only going to get better from here.
-GM Kenstrom-
Wehnimer's Landing Guru
Giantmen Guru
The good news is, I glean new ideas/strategies from every storyline. So my ultimate goal is to provide such an immersive experience that every profession, every level can participate, perhaps even in unique ways. Unfortunately, I've come to the point where it's going to require some coding, so I've got to finish that up asap!
It's only going to get better from here.
-GM Kenstrom-
Wehnimer's Landing Guru
Giantmen Guru
ARATOS
Re: What Kind Do You Like?
10/12/2012 10:41 PM CDT
Tentacles. Lots of tentacles! I would love to see a Cthulhu mythos-esque invasion with wide variety of interstellar beings from the deep cosmos invading the entirety of Elanthia!
Ok someone find me a rag so I can wipe the drool off my face.
Vathors are cool as well. I still have that as my top critter killed, managed to land the killing blow on one when I was only 42 or so.
Ok someone find me a rag so I can wipe the drool off my face.
Vathors are cool as well. I still have that as my top critter killed, managed to land the killing blow on one when I was only 42 or so.
GILBERTJ26
Re: What Kind Do You Like?
11/05/2012 07:38 PM CST
I think one of the best changes that I have seen is the temporary hunting areas that allow folks to just go do there part to aid in removing the enemy.
I would also like to see if were going to have NPC's walking people through the big event nights, I think enlisting the aid of more then one gm, so that there is a young group led by one, and an older group led by another in different areas. This Might stop the overload of too many in one room, and being held up bodies because some cant handle the one large groups enemies.
I also would really like to see at least one of these big groups being led over long sagas, somehow have to go without any mass attack spells. Then the semis an squares can get off more then one swing and not just watch the pures kill hundreds in a few casts. It would be nice to not have to scramble to just swing at enough to even fill ones head before there all burned in one cast or killed by any other mass attack spells.
GS4-KENSTROM
Re: What Kind Do You Like?
11/06/2012 08:31 AM CST
The temporary hunting areas are definitely something I love to do, and have essentially been a part of many of my storylines so far, and the tradition will continue in the next two storylines as well.
As for the tragic crashing of the finale of the Star of Khar'ta, things are in the works to prevent that again. An example would be, the finale consisting of multiple "threats", and the players having to choose which one to go help with, but all must be done in connection, etc. Basically dividing the player base, while still providing a crucial role to everyone, regardless of the path they choose.
-GM Kenstrom-
Wehnimer's Landing Guru
Giantmen Guru
As for the tragic crashing of the finale of the Star of Khar'ta, things are in the works to prevent that again. An example would be, the finale consisting of multiple "threats", and the players having to choose which one to go help with, but all must be done in connection, etc. Basically dividing the player base, while still providing a crucial role to everyone, regardless of the path they choose.
-GM Kenstrom-
Wehnimer's Landing Guru
Giantmen Guru
SABRE
Re: What Kind Do You Like?
11/15/2012 02:16 PM CST
One of the things I really love about Gemstone is the major story arcs. I like the idea of being able to participate in an event that might have a meaningful impact on the world. However, there are two things that I'm constantly struggling with:
1) I have a hard time keeping up with the storyline. The hours I play are irregular, and sometimes I miss a couple of days worth of events. When I do jump online, I ask other players about what's going on, but that rarely works out very well. Generally, people either have no idea what's going on, or they do, but don't want to take the time to explain everything.
2) I don't feel like I can meaningfully participate. I don't have a character near cap, and almost every invasion includes capped critters. I realize that not all story arcs require someone to battle a capped critter - but more often than not, they do. When the big critters start rolling in, I have to go elsewhere... and that often means that, even when the invasion stops, I'm not around to participate in whatever might come next.
So, here are a few ideas I have to help:
- An easy way for players to get up-to-speed on the storyline so far. Perhaps add the ability for a player to ask an NPC about current events in the town. In the Landing, I think Helga might be a good choice. A major event (invasion, election, etc...) would tend to generate an awful lot of gossip, and a bartender is generally in a position to hear that kind of stuff.
- For certain major storylines, mechanics built in to facilitate advancing the storyline. Here's a fictitious storyline just used as an example to demonstrate what I'm talking about. Let's say that there was some organized force planning to invade the Landing, and events led up to the creation of an official Landing defense force headed by an NPC. I'm imaging that NPC might have a list of things that need to completed before a deadline. Much like the bounty system, a player could ask the NPC how they could help, and the NPC would assign them a task appropriate to their level. The direction the story takes would be dependent on the number of tasks completed by the deadline. That would accomplish two things - First, all players would have the ability to meaningfully participate. Second, players would know that a major event would take place at a particular point in time (the deadline) so that they could try to make sure they were online when that happened.
- To build on what GILBERTJ26 suggested, it would be nice if there was something specifically geared toward lower level characters. Maybe it's a GameMaster playing a character who comes into town seeking help - but only accepts players between level 25-45. Not sure how to spin that in an RP sort of way... but that might make it easy for you to tailor an experience that would be fun for lower level characters.
- This might be ridiculously complicated to code (and perhaps someone has suggested this before!), but I'd like to see critters that scale with the level of the person they are engaging. I imagine that this scaling would happen on a per-action basis. So, imagine you had a capped character and a level 50 character in the same room. When the level 50 person attacks or is attacked by the critter, it behaves like it's level 50. When the capped person attacks or is attacked, it behaves like it's capped. I realize there may be some very difficult mechanical challenges involved, but if those challenges are overcome, it would effectively allow characters of all levels to participate in invasions.
1) I have a hard time keeping up with the storyline. The hours I play are irregular, and sometimes I miss a couple of days worth of events. When I do jump online, I ask other players about what's going on, but that rarely works out very well. Generally, people either have no idea what's going on, or they do, but don't want to take the time to explain everything.
2) I don't feel like I can meaningfully participate. I don't have a character near cap, and almost every invasion includes capped critters. I realize that not all story arcs require someone to battle a capped critter - but more often than not, they do. When the big critters start rolling in, I have to go elsewhere... and that often means that, even when the invasion stops, I'm not around to participate in whatever might come next.
So, here are a few ideas I have to help:
- An easy way for players to get up-to-speed on the storyline so far. Perhaps add the ability for a player to ask an NPC about current events in the town. In the Landing, I think Helga might be a good choice. A major event (invasion, election, etc...) would tend to generate an awful lot of gossip, and a bartender is generally in a position to hear that kind of stuff.
- For certain major storylines, mechanics built in to facilitate advancing the storyline. Here's a fictitious storyline just used as an example to demonstrate what I'm talking about. Let's say that there was some organized force planning to invade the Landing, and events led up to the creation of an official Landing defense force headed by an NPC. I'm imaging that NPC might have a list of things that need to completed before a deadline. Much like the bounty system, a player could ask the NPC how they could help, and the NPC would assign them a task appropriate to their level. The direction the story takes would be dependent on the number of tasks completed by the deadline. That would accomplish two things - First, all players would have the ability to meaningfully participate. Second, players would know that a major event would take place at a particular point in time (the deadline) so that they could try to make sure they were online when that happened.
- To build on what GILBERTJ26 suggested, it would be nice if there was something specifically geared toward lower level characters. Maybe it's a GameMaster playing a character who comes into town seeking help - but only accepts players between level 25-45. Not sure how to spin that in an RP sort of way... but that might make it easy for you to tailor an experience that would be fun for lower level characters.
- This might be ridiculously complicated to code (and perhaps someone has suggested this before!), but I'd like to see critters that scale with the level of the person they are engaging. I imagine that this scaling would happen on a per-action basis. So, imagine you had a capped character and a level 50 character in the same room. When the level 50 person attacks or is attacked by the critter, it behaves like it's level 50. When the capped person attacks or is attacked, it behaves like it's capped. I realize there may be some very difficult mechanical challenges involved, but if those challenges are overcome, it would effectively allow characters of all levels to participate in invasions.
GILBERTJ26
Re: What Kind Do You Like?
11/15/2012 08:14 PM CST
I am no expert, but I suspect it would be possible for them to have a staging area with a barrier that restricts entrance and as far as R/p it could simply be.
We are making an assault on xxxx's camp. The most experienced have kill too many and like will be spotted entering, This is a covert attack and requires adventurers less known to slip by there defenses..
TRUE
Re: What Kind Do You Like?
11/19/2012 12:48 PM CST
I've suggested this in the past and I'll do so again...
Make major story arcs have reasonable but exciting end results. With the advent of the treasure table for Night at the Academy, I think it's entirely reasonable to provide a myriad of choices of rewards in either a Droughtman's style or Night at the Academy style.
Those that participate can already get titles granted based on tasks, so there is clearly a way to flag a player that contributed to an outcome.
That said, knowing that outcomes can be dangerous, I think that new mechanics, or a modification of mechanics that exist today needs to occur.
Invasions with 50 creatures dumped into a room and mass attacking is annoying. It doesn't get me going, and doesn't interest me. Too much screen scroll and vagaries. Instead, create a creature that requires a lot of coordination. That can be things like "low level players man a catapult and can't be killed by level 300 baddy, but also can't kill it on it's own. Perhaps the catapult puts the thing on the ground. Once it's on the ground, a cleric webs it, a mage burns the web, which opens up a hole in it's armor, to which an arrow or ballista can penetrate, which in turn causes it to scream and thrash, which causes it to open up vulnerability to warriors/rogues, etc.
Something where a very specific set of requirements or combinations are needed to injure it. Remove the ridiculous HP necessity. When one had 150 HPs and it's instant death for most at higher levels, it takes the fun out of it. Attrition is not fun, especially with the crazy rezz timer and recovery time now. Make it strategic, make it take a while, make it dangerous, but don't make it about luck.
Then reward us! :)
~Jim/Tk
GS4-KENSTROM
Re: What Kind Do You Like?
11/20/2012 12:39 PM CST
All great ideas! And they've been great ideas for awhile, problem is, it's just never been coded to allow such. And that is definitely something I intend to fix. Granted, my coding progress is taking much longer than I expected, but I'm a firm believer that players of all levels and professions can equally participate in storylines, and all in exciting and often unique ways. I've already been plotting ways for specific professions to be able to do unique tasks, both in storyline conflicts, and in overall defense of the Landing for example.
As for the massive amount of critters in a final battle not being fun, I agree. We saw what happened at the end of the Star of Khar'ta. 100+ players and tons of krolvin = epic game crash. I learned from that, and I will never repeat that again.
To that end, without giving too much away...specifically for my next storyline (All the Lich King's Men), the players will find themselves having to make choices if they hope to defeat the threat they're facing. The exciting part of that, is each choice is going to be critical, which essentially splits up the action, allowing YOU to decide where your player will best be able to help, and be just as much of a hero as the rest.
-GM Kenstrom-
Wehnimer's Landing Guru
Giantmen Guru
As for the massive amount of critters in a final battle not being fun, I agree. We saw what happened at the end of the Star of Khar'ta. 100+ players and tons of krolvin = epic game crash. I learned from that, and I will never repeat that again.
To that end, without giving too much away...specifically for my next storyline (All the Lich King's Men), the players will find themselves having to make choices if they hope to defeat the threat they're facing. The exciting part of that, is each choice is going to be critical, which essentially splits up the action, allowing YOU to decide where your player will best be able to help, and be just as much of a hero as the rest.
-GM Kenstrom-
Wehnimer's Landing Guru
Giantmen Guru
HEATHERHAZE
Re: What Kind Do You Like?
11/21/2012 01:40 AM CST
<<<I've already been plotting ways for specific professions to be able to do unique tasks, both in storyline conflicts, and in overall defense of the Landing for example.>>>
Love what I'm hearing, Kenstrom!
My main tends to get involved in storylines for the simple reason she's a more worldly and influential character. She's also my oldest, and as a sorcerer--Balefire is awesome in big swarms. Which is kinda fun, because I remember a time I (like most) just got dead in most invasions. It's nice to have a reached a point of semi-usefulness.
But some of my best, most memorable invasions have been with my other characters. Most notably, my highly-unlikely arbalest-toting lockpicking dwarven bard. I actually play her more often than any other character because she's so unusual, so colorful and so much fun. And...she's really surprisingly deadly with that arbalest.
Which leads me back to your statement, which really resonates for me. "...plotting ways for specific professions to be able to do unique tasks, both in storyline conflicts, and in overall defense of the Landing..." That's awesome. My bard is an expert with an arbalest, basically a siege weapon, so when the town is threatened her first inclination is to head for the towers. When there are monsters threatening the gates, and the towers open up in a timely fashion, she's highly effective and it's an awful lot of fun. There are a few problems, however.
One, sometimes the towers don't open in time, or at all. Two, sometimes the invaders bypass the gates entirely so there's never an opportunity to defend from the towers. And finally, even if you DO fight successfully from the towers, you gain exactly zilch in experience. This last point is especially frustrating, since I've killed some pretty big critters from the battlements.
Even considering the minor problems, however, I really appreciate this sort of opportunity to participate in the big invasions. My bolter could never survive a big swarm (or even a little one), because she was never designed to. The defense towers were such brilliant additions to our town (the Landing, specifically). I'd like to see more of this kind of innovation.
Anyway, no complaints here, just compliments and ideas for improvement. Thanks!
~ HH and friends
Love what I'm hearing, Kenstrom!
My main tends to get involved in storylines for the simple reason she's a more worldly and influential character. She's also my oldest, and as a sorcerer--Balefire is awesome in big swarms. Which is kinda fun, because I remember a time I (like most) just got dead in most invasions. It's nice to have a reached a point of semi-usefulness.
But some of my best, most memorable invasions have been with my other characters. Most notably, my highly-unlikely arbalest-toting lockpicking dwarven bard. I actually play her more often than any other character because she's so unusual, so colorful and so much fun. And...she's really surprisingly deadly with that arbalest.
Which leads me back to your statement, which really resonates for me. "...plotting ways for specific professions to be able to do unique tasks, both in storyline conflicts, and in overall defense of the Landing..." That's awesome. My bard is an expert with an arbalest, basically a siege weapon, so when the town is threatened her first inclination is to head for the towers. When there are monsters threatening the gates, and the towers open up in a timely fashion, she's highly effective and it's an awful lot of fun. There are a few problems, however.
One, sometimes the towers don't open in time, or at all. Two, sometimes the invaders bypass the gates entirely so there's never an opportunity to defend from the towers. And finally, even if you DO fight successfully from the towers, you gain exactly zilch in experience. This last point is especially frustrating, since I've killed some pretty big critters from the battlements.
Even considering the minor problems, however, I really appreciate this sort of opportunity to participate in the big invasions. My bolter could never survive a big swarm (or even a little one), because she was never designed to. The defense towers were such brilliant additions to our town (the Landing, specifically). I'd like to see more of this kind of innovation.
Anyway, no complaints here, just compliments and ideas for improvement. Thanks!
~ HH and friends
GS4-KENSTROM
Re: What Kind Do You Like?
11/24/2012 09:18 AM CST
Glad to hear the feedback!
And I do wish more experience was given for defending, and I can always see what can be done. Ideally, I'd love a system in place to grant experience based on risk. Obviously, being ON the ground, knee-deep in orc blood, will give people more experience, but there's no reason why defenders on the towers or other defensable spots, should get little to nothing for their help. Hell, I would love to see invasions where they never even make it to the gate, or past it, before they're all stopped and everyone's fried, hehe.
Can you fire balefire from the towers like other bolt spells?
-GM Kenstrom-
Wehnimer's Landing Guru
Giantmen Guru
And I do wish more experience was given for defending, and I can always see what can be done. Ideally, I'd love a system in place to grant experience based on risk. Obviously, being ON the ground, knee-deep in orc blood, will give people more experience, but there's no reason why defenders on the towers or other defensable spots, should get little to nothing for their help. Hell, I would love to see invasions where they never even make it to the gate, or past it, before they're all stopped and everyone's fried, hehe.
Can you fire balefire from the towers like other bolt spells?
-GM Kenstrom-
Wehnimer's Landing Guru
Giantmen Guru
ISMANO
Re: What Kind Do You Like?
11/24/2012 03:27 PM CST
What I'd like is an invasion/storyline that actually had more consequences. Permanent consequences. Speaking strictly for myself, I want the chance for a storyline/invasions to have meaning. Not just for personal characters, but worldwide.
You die in the storyline/invasion, and you're dead for good.
Loose a limb, you're stuck with the consequences (mechanical too).
Get hailed as the second coming of Terate and gain the ability to explode people just by looking at them.
Get banished from a town, never be able to come back.
Raise a demon to take over the world, get labeled a 'Terror to the Empire(s)' and have bandits hunt you wherever you go. Forever.
Town gets burnt to the ground or swallowed up by the ocean? Bye bye town!
Run for mayor, win and have to deal with government drivel. Then run the risk of being tarred and feathered and run out of town when you're caught with your hand in the cookie jar padding your own bank accounts.
Yes, some of these things could never happen, but my point is pretty clear.
About the only permanent thing we pass out are titles. Which are nice, I won't argue against it. However, until those titles mean something(Does anyone really think one of the many Knights we have could actually raise an army? Or think it odd someone who has the title of 'Banished', or whatever title still spends so much time in that town?) it's still not very permanent. That doesn't even touch on the fact that those titles can be stripped to mean nothing just because the GM who gave it out leaves staff.
Unfortunately, the population playing now, right or wrong, as a whole, doesn't support this type of idea. Much less the mechanics.
-farmer
You die in the storyline/invasion, and you're dead for good.
Loose a limb, you're stuck with the consequences (mechanical too).
Get hailed as the second coming of Terate and gain the ability to explode people just by looking at them.
Get banished from a town, never be able to come back.
Raise a demon to take over the world, get labeled a 'Terror to the Empire(s)' and have bandits hunt you wherever you go. Forever.
Town gets burnt to the ground or swallowed up by the ocean? Bye bye town!
Run for mayor, win and have to deal with government drivel. Then run the risk of being tarred and feathered and run out of town when you're caught with your hand in the cookie jar padding your own bank accounts.
Yes, some of these things could never happen, but my point is pretty clear.
About the only permanent thing we pass out are titles. Which are nice, I won't argue against it. However, until those titles mean something(Does anyone really think one of the many Knights we have could actually raise an army? Or think it odd someone who has the title of 'Banished', or whatever title still spends so much time in that town?) it's still not very permanent. That doesn't even touch on the fact that those titles can be stripped to mean nothing just because the GM who gave it out leaves staff.
Unfortunately, the population playing now, right or wrong, as a whole, doesn't support this type of idea. Much less the mechanics.
-farmer
DOUG
HEATHERHAZE
Re: What Kind Do You Like?
11/24/2012 06:37 PM CST
>>>Can you fire balefire from the towers like other bolt spells?
That's a good question, so I gave it a try.
>prep balefire
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Balefire...
Your spell is ready.
>cast third window
You gesture at a notched slitted window.
Your spell dissipates as you hurl it through the window. Looks like it's not suitable for being flung long distances.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Guess not. But we still have Fire Spirit.
>prep firespirit
You utter a light chant and raise your hands, beckoning the lesser spirits to aid you with the Fire Spirit spell...
Your spell is ready.
>cast third window
You gesture at a notched slitted window.
You send forth a blazing orb of fire that streaks off into the distance!
Your blazing orb of fire spirals through the air, then descends at a steep angle and strikes a rolton!
Horrid burns seal left eye. Consider an eyepatch.
The rolton is stunned!
Roundtime: 6 sec.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
As seen from the ground:
>
A blazing orb of fire descends from above and strikes a rolton!
... 20 points of damage!
Horrid burns seal left eye. Consider an eyepatch.
The rolton is stunned!
>
~ Heathyr
That's a good question, so I gave it a try.
>prep balefire
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Balefire...
Your spell is ready.
>cast third window
You gesture at a notched slitted window.
Your spell dissipates as you hurl it through the window. Looks like it's not suitable for being flung long distances.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Guess not. But we still have Fire Spirit.
>prep firespirit
You utter a light chant and raise your hands, beckoning the lesser spirits to aid you with the Fire Spirit spell...
Your spell is ready.
>cast third window
You gesture at a notched slitted window.
You send forth a blazing orb of fire that streaks off into the distance!
Your blazing orb of fire spirals through the air, then descends at a steep angle and strikes a rolton!
Horrid burns seal left eye. Consider an eyepatch.
The rolton is stunned!
Roundtime: 6 sec.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
As seen from the ground:
>
A blazing orb of fire descends from above and strikes a rolton!
... 20 points of damage!
Horrid burns seal left eye. Consider an eyepatch.
The rolton is stunned!
>
~ Heathyr
GS4-WYROM
Re: What Kind Do You Like?
11/24/2012 07:57 PM CST
I definitely agree with you, Farmer, and I wish we could do more things like that. But you'll find most people don't want to live with the consequences. People still want to play the way they enjoy. Each time we have a long-standing occupation, we get assists and reports all the time about people being upset. And that's just a temporary occupation of a town.
My merchants dying were consequences to my little storylines. They could have been saved. They were not. So they died. The only merchant that didn't have a chance was Vahmyr ONCE we reached the Isle of the Dead. He could have been saved prior to that though. Dyhne dying was sort of non-negotiable, but his path COULD have been altered.
But perhaps creating an area for it could be something for the future. A place where people would go with the understanding that Bad Things Happen (tm).
~Wyrom, ASGM
Host Manager
GameMaster Trainer
Honorary QC Lackey
My merchants dying were consequences to my little storylines. They could have been saved. They were not. So they died. The only merchant that didn't have a chance was Vahmyr ONCE we reached the Isle of the Dead. He could have been saved prior to that though. Dyhne dying was sort of non-negotiable, but his path COULD have been altered.
But perhaps creating an area for it could be something for the future. A place where people would go with the understanding that Bad Things Happen (tm).
~Wyrom, ASGM
Host Manager
GameMaster Trainer
Honorary QC Lackey
RATHBONER
Re: What Kind Do You Like?
11/25/2012 07:55 AM CST
>Each time we have a long-standing occupation, we get assists and reports all the time about people being upset. And that's just a temporary occupation of a town.
You should do more in game to set them up beforehand. I spent something like 50 hours per week most weeks in Icemule in the months before the occupation "storyline" and there was absolutely nothing in game until people started dropping dead from the town being turned into a level 50 hunting ground.
A storyline should have a story to it, not just turning a town into a hunting ground thats over the head of 90% of the non-capped inhabitants.
Stories don't propagate round time zones. If the GM wants critters spawning in town at 9 a.m. they should be running the story at 9 a.m. as well as 9 p.m.
...
If the GM wants an occupation to work while they are not running the storyline, they need to change all the NPCs so that they fit the story. Does the lost penguin chick get eaten by a fire giant? or even run screaming from a cinder wasp? Does the Deputy, who has no trouble arresting capped sorcerers, do anything when a fire witch one shots Lord Newtitled under his nose for the second time in 20 minutes? Did any NPC wander round town 24/7 during the previous months sounding off about "A fiery vengeance is coming, you'll see"?
>Look crevasse
You see nothing unusual.
Really? There ought to be something unusual about a fiery crevasse in Icemule.
>look crevasse
There appears to be something spelled out by the flickering flames.
>read crevasse
The flickering fires briefly seem to spell out "DOOM"
>read crevasse
The flickering fires briefly seem to spell out "Vote Hibdullah for mayor"
>read crevasse
As you lean in to try and make out what the flickering fires spell out you get too close ...
eyebrows singed
The typical occupation is shallow compared to the depth of the normal messaging, and shoddy in how it fits in with the normal messaging. Towns are particularly rich in environmental and NPC messaging and consequently are hard to do a proper adjustment to make them fit an occupation. Areas outside town make much better occupation zones because there isn't a mass of inappropriate messaging needing to be altered or suppressed.
An active GM can provide reasonable compensation while logged in, but either do a lot more to make the environmental messaging and NPC actions appropriate, or switch off the spawns when the GM logs off.
...
Why don't the GMs have enormous fiery crawlers (level 140 Rift crawler) as the randomly spawned occupation critters? If occupations were actually about making it dangerous in town, thats the sort of critter that should be used. However, they are actually about providing high level characters with vicarious enjoyment of the sort of thing that would count as harrassment if they did it directly, and its not surprising that the low level victims get upset and complain about it.
What does having level 40 critters spawning in an area actually do? It makes it uncomfortable to dangerous for characters somewhere in the 30-50 range depending on profession, gear, player skill. Level 50-100 get flavor messages of the form "Also here: a cinder wasp and the body of Novice Newb". Level 0-30 die until they get fed up of being victimised, and log off and don't come back. Roughly speaking it provides a challenge for 5% of the population, victimises 60% of the population, and gives vicarious enjoyment of that victimisation to the other 35%.
A GM actively doing stuff in game provides some compensation for those being victimised while the storyline is active, but for the rest of the time a 24/7 occupation is pure victimisation of low level characters and GMs should no more be setting it up via random spawns than they should permit it via direct griefing. A guru in a starter town should always be thinking, "how is a new player going to respond to this?", as well as "how can I make it interesting for the capped players?" Making it interesting for capped players by offing the newbs the moment they start is a bad thing to do.
You should do more in game to set them up beforehand. I spent something like 50 hours per week most weeks in Icemule in the months before the occupation "storyline" and there was absolutely nothing in game until people started dropping dead from the town being turned into a level 50 hunting ground.
A storyline should have a story to it, not just turning a town into a hunting ground thats over the head of 90% of the non-capped inhabitants.
Stories don't propagate round time zones. If the GM wants critters spawning in town at 9 a.m. they should be running the story at 9 a.m. as well as 9 p.m.
...
If the GM wants an occupation to work while they are not running the storyline, they need to change all the NPCs so that they fit the story. Does the lost penguin chick get eaten by a fire giant? or even run screaming from a cinder wasp? Does the Deputy, who has no trouble arresting capped sorcerers, do anything when a fire witch one shots Lord Newtitled under his nose for the second time in 20 minutes? Did any NPC wander round town 24/7 during the previous months sounding off about "A fiery vengeance is coming, you'll see"?
>Look crevasse
You see nothing unusual.
Really? There ought to be something unusual about a fiery crevasse in Icemule.
>look crevasse
There appears to be something spelled out by the flickering flames.
>read crevasse
The flickering fires briefly seem to spell out "DOOM"
>read crevasse
The flickering fires briefly seem to spell out "Vote Hibdullah for mayor"
>read crevasse
As you lean in to try and make out what the flickering fires spell out you get too close ...
eyebrows singed
The typical occupation is shallow compared to the depth of the normal messaging, and shoddy in how it fits in with the normal messaging. Towns are particularly rich in environmental and NPC messaging and consequently are hard to do a proper adjustment to make them fit an occupation. Areas outside town make much better occupation zones because there isn't a mass of inappropriate messaging needing to be altered or suppressed.
An active GM can provide reasonable compensation while logged in, but either do a lot more to make the environmental messaging and NPC actions appropriate, or switch off the spawns when the GM logs off.
...
Why don't the GMs have enormous fiery crawlers (level 140 Rift crawler) as the randomly spawned occupation critters? If occupations were actually about making it dangerous in town, thats the sort of critter that should be used. However, they are actually about providing high level characters with vicarious enjoyment of the sort of thing that would count as harrassment if they did it directly, and its not surprising that the low level victims get upset and complain about it.
What does having level 40 critters spawning in an area actually do? It makes it uncomfortable to dangerous for characters somewhere in the 30-50 range depending on profession, gear, player skill. Level 50-100 get flavor messages of the form "Also here: a cinder wasp and the body of Novice Newb". Level 0-30 die until they get fed up of being victimised, and log off and don't come back. Roughly speaking it provides a challenge for 5% of the population, victimises 60% of the population, and gives vicarious enjoyment of that victimisation to the other 35%.
A GM actively doing stuff in game provides some compensation for those being victimised while the storyline is active, but for the rest of the time a 24/7 occupation is pure victimisation of low level characters and GMs should no more be setting it up via random spawns than they should permit it via direct griefing. A guru in a starter town should always be thinking, "how is a new player going to respond to this?", as well as "how can I make it interesting for the capped players?" Making it interesting for capped players by offing the newbs the moment they start is a bad thing to do.
ARCHIGEEK
ROBLAR
Re: What Kind Do You Like?
11/25/2012 10:23 AM CST
<<I spent something like 50 hours per week most weeks in Icemule in the months before the occupation "storyline" and there was absolutely nothing in game until people started dropping dead from the town being turned into a level 50 hunting ground.>>
I was aware of the story buildup, though perhaps missed the immediate event leading to the occupation. I blame EG though! :p
<<If the GM wants an occupation to work while they are not running the storyline, they need to change all the NPCs so that they fit the story. Does the lost penguin chick get eaten by a fire giant? or even run screaming from a cinder wasp? Does the Deputy, who has no trouble arresting capped sorcerers, do anything when a fire witch one shots Lord Newtitled under his nose for the second time in 20 minutes? Did any NPC wander round town 24/7 during the previous months sounding off about "A fiery vengeance is coming, you'll see"?>>
Agreed
<<Why don't the GMs have enormous fiery crawlers (level 140 Rift crawler) as the randomly spawned occupation critters?>>
Yes please! Assuming I survive a burrow, these should be a fun fight.
<<A guru in a starter town should always be thinking, "how is a new player going to respond to this?", as well as "how can I make it interesting for the capped players?">>
I actually had been helping a 14 yr gone returning player in the midst of this, and offered to move him to the Landing but he has adjusted and is now level 6. It seems not have bothered him, just an example but I agree that most newbies might be confused and frusterated. Personally, if I was returning and a level 0, it would be both those things, but also exciting in the sense that Gemstone still has a sense of wonder (has crazy occupations/invasions/storyline involvement). In addition to the new systems.
I was aware of the story buildup, though perhaps missed the immediate event leading to the occupation. I blame EG though! :p
<<If the GM wants an occupation to work while they are not running the storyline, they need to change all the NPCs so that they fit the story. Does the lost penguin chick get eaten by a fire giant? or even run screaming from a cinder wasp? Does the Deputy, who has no trouble arresting capped sorcerers, do anything when a fire witch one shots Lord Newtitled under his nose for the second time in 20 minutes? Did any NPC wander round town 24/7 during the previous months sounding off about "A fiery vengeance is coming, you'll see"?>>
Agreed
<<Why don't the GMs have enormous fiery crawlers (level 140 Rift crawler) as the randomly spawned occupation critters?>>
Yes please! Assuming I survive a burrow, these should be a fun fight.
<<A guru in a starter town should always be thinking, "how is a new player going to respond to this?", as well as "how can I make it interesting for the capped players?">>
I actually had been helping a 14 yr gone returning player in the midst of this, and offered to move him to the Landing but he has adjusted and is now level 6. It seems not have bothered him, just an example but I agree that most newbies might be confused and frusterated. Personally, if I was returning and a level 0, it would be both those things, but also exciting in the sense that Gemstone still has a sense of wonder (has crazy occupations/invasions/storyline involvement). In addition to the new systems.
OM1E5GA
Re: What Kind Do You Like?
11/25/2012 11:28 AM CST
I have to agree completely, Rathboner, esp with the last two paragraphs.
24/7 occupations are all fine and good for those that can survive them, but all too often it seems like GMs forget or ignore what levels of characters should be expected to be in a given town, even those that aren't starter towns. Having level 50+ critters roaming around 24/7 in towns where most adventurers should be expected to be level 50- does nothing but render the game unplayable for most of those adventurers, even if they WANT to help defend their town.
The excuse of wanting to make the town dangerous to match the storyline quickly falls flat, esp in towns that are small enough that you can't have critters of varying levels wandering different areas of town to at least give lower level characters a town (RR for example).
A better idea would be to simulate a siege, have the critters roaming the areas just outside town gates in the hunting areas 24/7 and only have them actually come into the town at times when the storyline is actively being advanced. The RP of pushing the invaders back out of town till reinforcements arrive could be done quite well and it would allow lower level adventurers to still enjoy themselves in the downtime by using a gold ring to get past the invaders.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
24/7 occupations are all fine and good for those that can survive them, but all too often it seems like GMs forget or ignore what levels of characters should be expected to be in a given town, even those that aren't starter towns. Having level 50+ critters roaming around 24/7 in towns where most adventurers should be expected to be level 50- does nothing but render the game unplayable for most of those adventurers, even if they WANT to help defend their town.
The excuse of wanting to make the town dangerous to match the storyline quickly falls flat, esp in towns that are small enough that you can't have critters of varying levels wandering different areas of town to at least give lower level characters a town (RR for example).
A better idea would be to simulate a siege, have the critters roaming the areas just outside town gates in the hunting areas 24/7 and only have them actually come into the town at times when the storyline is actively being advanced. The RP of pushing the invaders back out of town till reinforcements arrive could be done quite well and it would allow lower level adventurers to still enjoy themselves in the downtime by using a gold ring to get past the invaders.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
GS4-MARSTREFORN
Re: What Kind Do You Like?
11/25/2012 11:56 AM CST
>You should do more in game to set them up beforehand. I spent something like 50 hours per week most weeks in Icemule in the months before the occupation "storyline" and there was absolutely nothing in game until people started dropping dead from the town being turned into a level 50 hunting ground.
Not to start an argument, but things most definitely did happen in Icemule prior to the occupation. Most of it happened prior to Ebon Gate, and then the occupation started immediately after Ebon Gate ended. The extension of Ebon Gate, and myself being fairly active as a merchant during that week, was likely the biggest factor in why there seemed to be a "gap" between events. I didn't want the players affected by Sandy to lose out.
Perhaps better communication with your fellow players would have gained some information. As you can see from my post in the Icemule folder, there are level 1 and 2 invaders, as well as level 16 and 18 invaders. These areas are isolated from the other creatures so young characters can fight them in safety.
I'm also not sure what you mean by "a fiery crevasse", since there aren't any crevasses involved in the storyline. There are steaming fissures, and more than one, so they are not entirely unique. Do you really need more information than knowing it is "a steaming fissure"? The ambient messaging gives a bit more detail as to what happens when they grow more "active".
Now, if you travel under the town and look at the pool of lava forming there, you'll see something much different.
-Marstreforn-
Icemule Trace Guru
Halfling Guru
Not to start an argument, but things most definitely did happen in Icemule prior to the occupation. Most of it happened prior to Ebon Gate, and then the occupation started immediately after Ebon Gate ended. The extension of Ebon Gate, and myself being fairly active as a merchant during that week, was likely the biggest factor in why there seemed to be a "gap" between events. I didn't want the players affected by Sandy to lose out.
Perhaps better communication with your fellow players would have gained some information. As you can see from my post in the Icemule folder, there are level 1 and 2 invaders, as well as level 16 and 18 invaders. These areas are isolated from the other creatures so young characters can fight them in safety.
I'm also not sure what you mean by "a fiery crevasse", since there aren't any crevasses involved in the storyline. There are steaming fissures, and more than one, so they are not entirely unique. Do you really need more information than knowing it is "a steaming fissure"? The ambient messaging gives a bit more detail as to what happens when they grow more "active".
Now, if you travel under the town and look at the pool of lava forming there, you'll see something much different.
-Marstreforn-
Icemule Trace Guru
Halfling Guru
CAVEMANIA
Re: What Kind Do You Like?
11/25/2012 12:38 PM CST
Count me as one that loves this occupation and the general sense of excitement around town. I was helping lowbies clear out the underground before the really big stuff past the bridge yesterday and i loved it. Granted, neither of my characters have been killed by the random wasps, giants and witches wandering the town. Perhaps if the creatures we spawned for each character like grimswarm or bandits it would give pmore eople a chance as long as they are not afk.
LUNATUNES
Re: What Kind Do You Like?
11/25/2012 02:00 PM CST
I agree with Rathboner's post as well, (especially about squelching inappropriate ambient messaging and having the normal NPCs either vanish or react appropriately - Maybe they call all just take out rooms at a local Inn and park there for the duration), though I do have some comments regarding ramp-ups to the storyline.
Getting the word out to players is amazingly hard. There's a significant number of players who don't read the forums, don't read the news, maybe don't even look at the calendar. How many of these folks are aware that there's been a ramp-up happening in WL for probably three months? Yesterday a shadowy thing attacked someone after mayor Walkar gave a ranting, rambling speech last night. In an actual small town, everyone would be talking about that, but in our game, people do their own thing, don't pay attention, etc. While I believe in personal responsibility and definitely do not want to be the one hand-holding in order to bring everyone into every storyline, there is a disconnect because of the way the game is played versus the way an actual small town would operate. For characters who are loners, who are new and don't have friends yet, who are XXX and YYY, it can be very hard to get the news in ways that are IC appropriate. I plan to have Seo talk about it to everyone she knows probably, but despite signs to the contrary, Seo doesn't actually know everyone, lol.
Marstreforn, one thing that was done in WL that perhaps you might consider, was new random ambient scripts where ordinary citizens walked around talking to each other about recent news. In our case, it was folks spreading rumors about the mayor, etc.
>A pair of halfling town officials walk by, their heads together in serious discussion. You think you overhear the red-haired one say, "I'm worried, sir - there have been an increase in reports of terrifying fire creatures..." before the pair moves out of your hearing and disappears.
I realize that it's MORE work on the part of the GM who is already juggling the rest of the monumental task of running a cohesive storyline, but it seemed to me to be a great way to get those outlier players - if not involved, at least aware.
/seo/
Getting the word out to players is amazingly hard. There's a significant number of players who don't read the forums, don't read the news, maybe don't even look at the calendar. How many of these folks are aware that there's been a ramp-up happening in WL for probably three months? Yesterday a shadowy thing attacked someone after mayor Walkar gave a ranting, rambling speech last night. In an actual small town, everyone would be talking about that, but in our game, people do their own thing, don't pay attention, etc. While I believe in personal responsibility and definitely do not want to be the one hand-holding in order to bring everyone into every storyline, there is a disconnect because of the way the game is played versus the way an actual small town would operate. For characters who are loners, who are new and don't have friends yet, who are XXX and YYY, it can be very hard to get the news in ways that are IC appropriate. I plan to have Seo talk about it to everyone she knows probably, but despite signs to the contrary, Seo doesn't actually know everyone, lol.
Marstreforn, one thing that was done in WL that perhaps you might consider, was new random ambient scripts where ordinary citizens walked around talking to each other about recent news. In our case, it was folks spreading rumors about the mayor, etc.
>A pair of halfling town officials walk by, their heads together in serious discussion. You think you overhear the red-haired one say, "I'm worried, sir - there have been an increase in reports of terrifying fire creatures..." before the pair moves out of your hearing and disappears.
I realize that it's MORE work on the part of the GM who is already juggling the rest of the monumental task of running a cohesive storyline, but it seemed to me to be a great way to get those outlier players - if not involved, at least aware.
/seo/
CLUNK24963
Re: What Kind Do You Like?
11/25/2012 02:48 PM CST
After nearly melting two different weapons trying to fight creatures under the town, Clunk had a long talk with someone who recommended cold-flaring weapons to fight fire based creatures. Supposedly they don't get so hot that you can't hold them.
Then, Clunk remembered rhimar, and has been making rhimar weapons ever since. Unfortunatley, he's running out of rhimar.
So this is a call for more rhimar slabs to be used in making weapons to defend IceMule.
Clunk
(Buy your swords at CBD weapons in Zul Logoth.)
Toadstool News and reminders at http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/zullogoth/
