Any chance of getting rid of the brush/water/ink needed for Scroll Infusion?

Maybe changed to prepare with Grot t'kel potion and INFUSE runestone <rune type>.

Also like doubling the charges would be a welcomed change.

~Sabotage

How about just 714>EVOKE for greening.

---

Some lady softly says, "Naamit is over-rated."
You reply, speaking to the lady, "At least I have ratings."

Even upping the unlock runestones charges to 50 to correspond with detect/charge runestones would be a big improvement. Doesn't seem like it would be a huge undertaking either.

The only QoL I'd like for scroll infusion, since I scripted the entire process (which I put on the repo for downloading if anyone needs - infuse_scroll.lic) is some way to tell how many more times a scroll can be infused in the same way empower rechargeable items work.

You gesture at an illuminated scroll.
The scroll has # of spells unlocked
You feel you could infuse the scroll X number of times with your current skill.

Or whatever.

Not sure if this is a known factor, or if there's too much randomness involved, but overall that would be ideal.

Also, release dikar'fyn runes for god's sake. There's no reason these should still be locked behind some ridiculous phantom drama wall. There's no level 25 spells on scrolls, and if they were they aren't breaking anything to allow them to be infused. Those extra 5 charges are very handy for management of scrolls. I don't know what drama happened in the past to prevent this rune from being released to the public, but it's been years and there's still absolutely no logic (that I can see) why it's still unavailable to players.

Infusing a scroll should not be more complex than creating a new magical item via 420.

But it is.

As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear.

A squeaky halfling nearby asks, "Why you playing with orcs heads and troll rearends?!"

Probably should just give it a try.

It works and it is only hard if one is trying to min / max it. Letting a bit of text put off what one might want to try or not try - in a text game - seems unfortunate.

Doug

>It should be at least as complex as using 517. Which it is.

Charging an item is easy.

1: Orb gem - higher the value generally means the longer the orb lasts and allows the mage to charge more mana into an item, as long as the item can take the charges.
2: get a grot t'kel potion and pour it on the gem
3: cast 517 at the gem and then the orb until it's ready to be used.
4: hold the mage rechargeable item in your right hand, have mana in your head and then simply rub the orb
5: continue to add charges as you have mana or are comfortable trying, while managing the orb with recasting of 517 if it starts to shrink.

It's pretty simple. The method hasn't changed since I can recall. Maybe specifics about how much mana can be charged based on orb gem and such, but the overall mechanics of charging an item is as it was nearly 20 years ago when I first used the spell and about a two years back when I last created a charging orb.

The only real change to the spell in the past few years was to allow up to 5 charges (depending on your available mana) to be added to a MR item using CHANNEL. This will, however, green the item and it can no longer be charged. I do like using this aspect of spell 517 on small statues and heavy orbs. Statue goes from having 4 rubs to 9 and orbs end up with 6 or 7 (depending on if they start with 1 or 2).

Reading through how to Infuse Scrolls, you have too many options to call simple. Compared to 517, 714 is overly complex.

1: You need to know what runes (there appear to be 8 in all) can be used for the spell
2: You need to know what runes unlocks which level of spells (one rune appears to not even be available to players outside of maybe being taught by a merchant - this rune allows 1 level 25 spell or lower to be unlocked on a scroll)
3: you need to know what rune allows how many possible charges that can be added to a spell/scroll
4: if you need a proper readout on a scroll, that requires the use of another rune
5: once you've unlocked a spell/scroll you need yet another rune to add charges
6: hold the scroll in one hand, charging rune in another and WAVE the rune at the scroll
I think that cover it in quick summary.


517 = orb gem + grot pot + casting 517, then rub for results

714 = 1 rune to check status of a scroll, 1 of 4 runes to unlock a spell for adding charges, 1 run to add charges

I don't want to have to juggle a handful of runes to infuse a scroll, it should be simplified to make it more user friendly.
If you want to incorporate runes into the process have 2 for unlocking spells. 1 for all spells under 20 and always unlocks the spells to hold 20 charges, 1 for spells level 25 and under.
Have 1 rune for adding charges.
Allow sorcerers to utilize 405 on a scroll to see what spells are unlocked or not.

714 could look like this:
cast 405 to check status, use 1 rune to unlock, use charging rune

>Bad comparison.

>It should be at least as complex as using 517. Which it is.

>I think there's an argument to be made for also having a more straightforward use of it for people that don't want to over think it similar to channeling 517, but we'll see.

>Viduus

How is this a bad comparison? If I find a scroll with 101 that I want to infuse you're looking at quite a few steps versus going to the alchemist, buying a wand, and creating a wand that can be raised with 101. A cleric has a very easy time creating magical gems as well. With magic item creation you can pretty much create as many items as you want. The expense is trivial. If you have access to a ranger it's pretty much free for 420 and you can have access to a huge number of spells.

I can't think of any spells that are available via scrolls that warrant the current process. More than likely, as is the case with many spells and systems in regards to GS, they were created by different GMs with different mindsets and goals. The current implementation of scroll infusion is necessary and "fun" in the same manner that the current implementation of alchemy is necessary and "fun".

As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear.

A squeaky halfling nearby asks, "Why you playing with orcs heads and troll rearends?!"

Again, all this 'effort' is nothing but a few seconds and only becomes cumbersome if you're trying to min/max results on items that were meant to be thrown away (like those alchemy rods we're comparing to).

This is probably the single most important thing said so far:

>>More than likely, as is the case with many spells and systems in regards to GS, they were created by different GMs with different mindsets and goals.

It would have been perfect in my view if it also simply added 'in differing timeframes'.

There's no need to grouse or gripe. Perhaps something like:

Can we review 714 and bring it more in line with the current game thinking? A couple of example cases to consider:

1) Let the sorcerer use 405 on scrolls to determine their status. Keep detect runes around, for non-sorcerers.

2) Let the sorcerer cast 714 while holding the unlocking rune of choice, and allow the spell on the scroll to be a target - don't require 'luck' to unlock the specific spell(s) on the scroll desired.

3) Significantly increase the charge rune capacity - in fact, make it so that it doesn't fade or crumble unless there's a failure. For added bennies, make it non-functional worn so it doesn't even need to be held.

4) For spells above 20, create a runestone, dammit!

5) For spells above 30, allow the sorcerer to cast 714 directly at the scroll without unlocking / charging to simply add 20 charges. Too much? 10 charges.

Then, it makes no difference if the play style is 'boost quick' or 'min/max'. A lot of game systems have been improved with these types of playability concepts in mind. Just ask!

Doug

<all this 'effort' is nothing but a few seconds and only becomes cumbersome if you're trying to min/max results on items that were meant to be thrown away (like those alchemy rods we're comparing to).>

If this were true, you'd see sorcerers routinely charging up useful scrolls for personal use, friends, or to sell in their shops. Instead, what happens is that most never bother with 714 in the first place and the majority of those that do try to add it to their repertoire either get frustrated and give up or quickly come to the conclusion that the effort isn't worth the result.

Heck, the following are the first two sentences in the guide that was linked to at the beginning of this thread (which is likely the main place most go to try to learn how to use the spell): "The intricacies of the Scroll Infusion spell can be difficult to grasp. It's among the most complicated of Elanthia's magic, and proper training is only a baseline requirement for usage."

Besides being cumbersome to learn, the spell is also cumbersome in terms of inventory management. At a minimum, any sorcerer wanting to make casual use of 714 needs to carry around 5 runestones. In practice, they're likely going to be carrying around at least 2 or three of most of those runestones as well as any smooth stones they find AND they'll have a cup of water, brush, and ink that they have to run to their locker to retrieve each time they need/want to make a new runestone. Keep in mind that this same sorcerer is probably carrying around a book/chalk for 740, may be carrying runestones for 725, and may also be carrying around salt crystals for 730 (with the necessary items to make them taking up more space in their locker)..... all on a character whose profession makes them among the least well suited to deal with encumbrance and its negative effects. Aeia help them if they also practice alchemy.

I think the following would make the spell a lot more tenable to a lot more people:

*A streamlined guide is desperately needed. One that starts with the bare bones of what one needs to know for casual use with runes purchased from the shop before getting into the intricacies of runestone creation, unlocking order, etc would be much less intimidating then what's currently available.

*Combine the brush, ink, and water into a single item. As it stands it's just realism taken too far, just having the brush and letting the game assume the sorcerer has the ink/water readily available would be a huge QOL improvement.

*Eliminate the odeir'cos rune, allow 405 or channeled 714 to fill this task.

*Allow the option for a specific spell to be targeted for unlocking provided the runestone they're using is capable of unlocking that spell (even if doing so increases the difficulty or requires lore ranks). It could be as simple as changing the syntax to: WAVE MY [stone/shard/etc] AT MY [scroll/vellum/etc] [spell #]

*As an alternative to the above, change scrolls to hold X amount of mana when they're found and have all spells on the scroll draw from the same pool of mana. Then sorcerers could just unlock/infuse into the scroll itself without worrying about juggling all the spells on it. A cap on the amount of mana in the scroll at one time as well as a cap on the amount of mana that can be put into over its lifetime before it locks permanently would prevent them from sticking around indefinitely.


Starchitin, the OG

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.

I know that as a Mage, I have periodically done recharging sessions.
No time recently.

As a Sorcerer, I admire the ability to do scroll infusions as an intellectual exercise.
But having read through the directions, I have precisely no desire to burden myself with becoming proficient at it. (See also Alchemy, Guild skills, et al.)

As a Cleric, I have occasionally created Receptacles.
Not often, and not recently.

As a RoleMaster player, I wonder why only a single spell list has the capability to create magical items (even though nearly all of the professions can actually USE it to do so) rather than just making it an ability inherent to <some level of magical knowledge> in a list. RM did it at 20th level spell knowledge, but that is easy to do here in GemStone.
Make it "after shooting a spell gap", or "50 spells known", or whatever.

As a Bard?
I just want the ability to Unravel/1013 on scrolls, with all their nice juicy mana....

>Yeah...I'm not trying to figure this out. Thanks, but no thanks.


Yeah, this is me too. I have absolutely no idea how 714 works and will never have an idea how it works, despite multiple times trying to read that page, unless it's mechanically changed.

This is saying something too, since I totally understand other things like damage factors and crit divisors that many people consider incomprehensible.

---

https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara

How it works?

You buy ink, cup of water, brush, and runestones to create scroll infusion runestones. Each dip in ink only lasts for two drawings. Then you have to clean it with water and dip again. The components are so many that I just keep them in my locker as use as needed. Unlocking runestones only have 6 charges while detection and charging have 50.

We can't chose what spells we want to unlock so most just take their chance and unlock with quiss'fyn for the most charges. Otherwise one can use lower level unlocking spells to target lower unwanted spells before max unlocking the higher level. This is tedious.

It's very labor intensive and time consuming. I script cleaning my brush, inking my brush, and drawing my runestones, unlocking, and detecting. I manually grab my charging stone and infuse until out of mana or the scroll is full.

So after seeing SDEMASK's post, I went and created this page on the wiki: https://gswiki.play.net/User:OM1E5GA/Scroll_Infusion_for_Normal_Folk

I haven't linked to it from anywhere other then my user page yet, but if folk here think it'd be a useful primer for first-timers I'll go ahead and do that.

Starchitin, the OG

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.

Several places on that page you used "then" rather than "than", but it was very straightforward. THANKS!

.

Having now read it, and with what I recall of the more extensive document...
...why not just have ag'beiron'fyn runestones for charging 1-5th level spells, up through ag'quiss'fyn runes for charging 16-20th level?

Mages already have potions that work only on specific value ranges, why not Sorcerers?

Is there any GAIN behind forcing the user to hit-or-miss these other spells about which he cares nothing? (Other than a minimal silver drain, to buy new ingredients?)

.

Separately: with a scroll that has "the same thing" more than once, is there any way of soecifying WHICH of them you want to invoke? (Or any other verb, like Transfer [to a sigil staff tier2].)

>>Is there any GAIN behind forcing the user to hit-or-miss these other spells about which he cares nothing? (Other than a minimal silver drain, to buy new ingredients?)

In my personal view, no. It's a hold-over from over-reliance on RNG. It is much the same as the Weapon Fire issue of RNG after RNG. If there's a skill check, fine - roll the dice. But twice?

>>Separately: with a scroll that has "the same thing" more than once, is there any way of soecifying WHICH of them you want to invoke? (Or any other verb, like Transfer [to a sigil staff tier2].)

In my limited experience, the spell read is always the 'first' on the list. But my sample size is very small, and should be considered suspect until a wider data set and other scroll users weigh in.

Doug

<< Reading through how to Infuse Scrolls, you have too many options to call simple. Compared to 517, 714 is overly complex.

<< 1: You need to know what runes (there appear to be 8 in all) can be used for the spell
<< 2: You need to know what runes unlocks which level of spells (one rune appears to not even be available to players outside of maybe being taught by a merchant - this rune allows 1 level 25 spell or lower to be unlocked on a scroll)
<< 3: you need to know what rune allows how many possible charges that can be added to a spell/scroll
<< 4: if you need a proper readout on a scroll, that requires the use of another rune
<< 5: once you've unlocked a spell/scroll you need yet another rune to add charges
<< 6: hold the scroll in one hand, charging rune in another and WAVE the rune at the scroll
<< I think that cover it in quick summary. >>




I can't remember the last time I used any unlocking rune other than quiss'fyn. For simplicity, you can knock out points 1 through 3 by just using quiss'fyn.

Scroll infusion was released in 2003. Originally, it did not require the ag'loenar runestone. Ag'loenar was added in 2007. I do not have any notes on why ag'loenar was added, but it was probably because infusion was considered to be too quick and cheap.

Couldn't agree more with Starchitin's analysis of 714. The spell is needlessly complex, and I find Viduus' rebuttal that it is not to be flatout incorrect. 714 is irritating to use, full stop. The only way to make it not horrible is to script it, and that's bad design.

I guess I should have been more specific. You said it should be at least as complicated as 517, and I think that's deflecting. It is more complicated than 517 and I do not think it should be. The spell is annoying to use (and yes I understand it perfectly and have used it extensively). If 714 was as complicated to use as 517, I don't think anyone would be complaining.

I don't think so. It's the obtuse rune management that makes 714 irritating to use. Take that away (i.e. replace it with a single rune, the way 517 just uses orbs), and I don't think people would complain. I get the sentiment behind the rune system, but in practice, it winds up being an annoyance, especially when you factor in the overlap with demon summoning.