Thats one hefty review.

One point wasn't clear to me. Is the halving of 620 on metal armors going as well as the mushrooms?

So... I needed a good 90 minutes to even take all of this in, but I have to say, rangers might just have become GS' best profession design in my eyes. Not necessarily saying they'll be my favorites or anything, but just saying this is exactly what modern GS spell design should look like. Almost top to bottom, one ranger spell after another is slated for updates to make them more dynamic, multipurpose, and just plain interesting.

If I can figure out how to be more articulate about these awesome changes at some point, I'll come back and do just that, but right now I'm over the moon and more excited about rangers than I've been since the late 90s. They simply fell further and further behind with outdated (if not necessarily bad) spells and this update is an incredible and sorely needed breath of fresh air.

---

https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara

I think that's a pretty solid review, how much mana does the bolt version of 611 cost?

As someone who has played a ranger as my main character for two decades -- and has a total of ten rangers with a wide variety of training paths -- I am utterly stoked to see this incredibly comprehensive review of the profession and its spell circle. I know I haven't been able to fully process each proposed change, but what I have latched on is that it will further allow me to explore the even more diverse training styles that are going to be available to my heart's content. For about a decade, I sort of lamented the fact that rangers had been so well designed and balanced from the start that they saw virtually no attention from dev. However this review makes me glad that they aren't the profession that's forgotten simply because it's the best - they're still getting additional dev and support in spite of (or because of) that. I especially appreciate 1) that the recent TownCrier survey on Rangers was so thoroughly considered and 2) many of what I consider to be core Ranger facets will remain in some form (such as innate Whispering Willow with 605 being replaced).

Thank you for this.

- EK

>You now regard Eorgina with a warm demeanor.

Just C/Ping what I said on Discord>Mechanics:

Anyway, I want to reiterate that these ranger spell changes are the most exciting thing I've seen for rangers in literally 15 years. This opens up the profession to a viable casting path and adds a level of modern complexity and cross-spell interaction that makes the entire spell list feel more vibrant and engaging. Thank you for integrating so many long standing suggestions into it (CS damage version of 609, lightning for 620, etc) and for going SO far beyond what I think anyone had ever proposed on the ranger boards. @Estild @Oscuro @Naijin @Mestys


~ Nuadjha, the Briar Fox

You inhale deeply upon your pipe, puckering your lips as you send out three rings of smoke before you, then puff out a small vine of smoke that darts right through all three which causes them to disperse in a hazy shroud!

My Ranger is an Archer, a "physical" Ranger. I have no interest in turning it into a Druid. I often rely on Tangle Weed as a setup. It worries me that the fact 610 may end up "with success modified by Summoning lore" will in practical terms mean that at no Summoning Lore it will be near useless.

I see a lot of boosts to Weedmages and not much for "ranged/melee combat." Am I missing something?

Avaia, player of

>Avaia

There’s quite a bit that will benefit you: the new barkskin defense, the 610 attack rounds being reduced to 8 sec from 10, the AS boost from strength drained by 610, breeze RT flares and self-haste effect, and the debuff flares from 625.

~ Nuadjha, the Briar Fox

You inhale deeply upon your pipe, puckering your lips as you send out three rings of smoke before you, then puff out a small vine of smoke that darts right through all three which causes them to disperse in a hazy shroud!

Just....wow. After just finally reaching cap after decades, I am letting all this sink in, and realizing I will have to figure out a new path to train in now.

One thing I had always would liked to see from 610 was a way, using EVOKE to have a chance at more then one vine for a bit of crowd control, minus any enfeebling effects. Similar to 709, however the amount of vines would be based on summon lore.

>- this is now a SMRv2 spell, so--like Earthen Fury/917--it is probably hideously effective;

With spells and abilities changing over to SMRv2 - it's still irritating we're not given the ins and outs on how to properly defend or at least the ins and outs of how some spells help boost your defense.

While I enjoy 917 and how it can punish those I use it on, I absolutely hate having SMRv2 (or SMR or CML for that matter) used against my pures. Pures sorely lack the ability to train in as many physical skills SMRv2 defense gets boosted from....

PF = can only 1x
Dodging = can only 1x at an extreme cost of 20/20
CM = can only 1x at a hefty cost, but yet cheaper than dodging
Perception = can 2x, but the cost to do so pre-cap isn't a beneficial enough reason for a small few points of SMRv2 defense to gimp other necessary skills you need the TPs for
Shield Use = when applicable for skills that use it, can only 1x
Survival = can only 1x, but this only helps defend against some bandit traps

3 out of the 4 main skills that help bolster your SMRv2 defense, pures can only 1x in.
Then you get empaths that can train the shit out of PF at 3x (which matches what Warriors and Monks can do).

More and more that changes over to SMRv2 means pures are getting more and more skills used against them they can't defend well (or at all) against due to lack of skills they can train in and based on how little we know about actually defending against them.

Players don't know how everything impacts SMRv2 success and defense. We can speculate, but only so much and everything else is a guessing game.
- SMRv2 is heavily based on caster level vs defender level. Higher the level the caster, the easier it is to hit the defender.
- SMRv2 is pretty much based on open RNG rolls. I've had casts of 917 fail by -300+ before and I've had them go the other way and go over 300+. I constantly see open rolls of 101-200. I'm not complaining that I see them a lot on my casts of 917, but I do see them a lot against my pures, too. Nothing like moving through an area you can pretty much ignore anything in the room and all of a sudden BAM! your screen scrolls with all your spells because you died because a creature 12 levels under you got some cheap ass high open roll and blasted a hole through you.
- Over training heavily in armor provides a very tiny amount of SMRv2 defense.
- Spells designed to aid in SMRv2 defense give very little in terms of SMRv2 defense based on all my testing.
- There is a ceiling cap on the negative bonus your character can have against them whether you're over 15% encumbered or wearing armor you sorely under trained for...I don't know what exactly contributes to this number, I just know you cannot exceed whatever it is for your character. You could have zero armor training, put on some metal breastplate and hit your max penalty. You could then remove the armor and wear no armor, then carry around a million silvers and hit that max penalty due to encumbrance. Now, if you kept that metal breastplate on, then carried around a million silvers...your penalty doesn't double up, it still sits at that max penalty you got from just wearing the armor or just carrying a million silvers.
- It also appears that the higher in level you get, the less of a bonus you receive from skills that help you defend against SMRv2.
- I don't know how my stats specifically help in my defense against SMRv2 - other than AGI is primary and DEX/INT are secondary.
- I don't know what racial benefits are there for SMRv2 defense or penalty

I'm not saying other classes shouldn't get fun SMRv2 based spells, but the rate things are shifting in that direction the game is turning more into a RNG death fest due to the open roll system tied to SMRv2. Sure, we're seeing updated items/spells/creatures and stuff coming around, but the cheap deaths are still there and no matter how much you pay for a pretty piece of armor or special tool or fancy weapon, you can't mitigate the open roll RNG system tied to SMRv2.

I think in all, how to properly defend from SMRv2 and how each spell benefits from skill ranks and/or stats should be given out to players.
For example we're told training Wizard spell ranks boosts 917 - but not by what amount. My research shows every level over 17, you earn +1 for each spell rank up to your level. After that you earn +.5 for every spell rank over your level....but I don't know if this is 100% accurate.
I don't know how much exactly 913 helps defend against SMRv2 - my testing goes to show it provided maybe 3 points of SMRv2 defense for the characters I was testing with.
I don't know exactly how much SMRv2 defense 911 gives either since it appears the higher level you are, the less your skills give in return for SMRv2 defense.
I don't know if my characters stats play any role in their success for casting 917.
All I know is I cast the spell 917, as long as I have around like level wizard ranks, it should work pretty good.

sniff It's just so beautiful. Looks like 2020's gonna be a good year after all!

I'm not crying you're crying.

-Mnar's player

Damn it! I've wanted to do a druid-type ranger for years, and I have tried several times and have never been able to get it to work. And now you do this to me. I do not need to start another character. I have way too many now. And there's no way I will be able to resist this. Thanks a lot.

:)

P.S. This review looks great. Thanks for your work on it.

--David

"At a moment like this, I can't help but wonder, 'What would Jimmy Buffett do?'"

<My Ranger is an Archer, a "physical" Ranger. I have no interest in turning it into a Druid. I often rely on Tangle Weed as a setup. It worries me that the fact 610 may end up "with success modified by Summoning lore" will in practical terms mean that at no Summoning Lore it will be near useless.

I see a lot of boosts to Weedmages and not much for "ranged/melee combat." Am I missing something?

Avaia, player of>


Overall, love the attention the ranger class has finally been given. Great to see some really cool ideas.

That said, I do agree with Avaia, I feel like some of the changes are missing the mark on the stated goal "one of the goals that we wanted to achieve was encouraging archetypes, specifically centered on ranged/melee combat vs. the more spell-heavy "druid" style of Ranger."

Looking thru and imagining the usage of most of this, I would say its actually the opposite, its boosting the druid/caster portion much more heavily than the melee physical portion. I see extremely minimal improvements on the ranged side and melee side (+10AS that you have to micromanage is kinda minimal). But on the spells side, I see all these new abilities like 603, 609, 611, etc.

If anything, I think this will boost the druid path more and continue to leave the physical path improved but still lacking. At well post-cap, rangers are behind rogues and to a lesser extent warriors in archery offensively due to the benefits of 425 which rangers don't have anything to compensate without sacrificing a lot more mana and RT to do multiple setups (to which rogues and warriors also can do).

So love the changes overall but still wishing for something for the physical ranger. Hopefully there's more changes in store for animal companions to perhaps synergize the physical rangers better.

Will Evoke'd 612 continue to be able to scatter clouds/effects? Or is that completely gone from the ranger kit?


... Does 119 work on all those effects that we would otherwise use 612 towards?

I didn't see it mentioned, but will there be any review of how open-cast 609 works against players in hiding? I haven't checked recently but I believe it's still automatic success.

So far liking the spells but here a few of my comments so far:

- Barkskin is way too short. Is it possible to bump up to 2 or 5 minutes. if its a worry of balance, since its gone after it flares, at least 2 minutes please?
- Can we get a review of 610 vine immunity please? I know its been said in discord its not part of this, I'm still going to put it here as a reminder of the ask since there is the new affect of a boost when the ranger meets conditions of a successful vine attack. Sucks we can't use that boost on certain monsters that are fully immuned.
- 603 Wild Entropy. I love the damage done but from a RP point of view, I'm trying to determine how my ranger feels about making something rot. I love to be able to pull from a different set of messaging similar to empath healing messages. Maybe an idea of a swarm of spiders come out of the area to rip apart the target?


I'll probably play around in under hunting to try to get use to the spells and hopefully in a few nights I can go to a capped hunting area and see how these spells work there. I can definitely see how these spells will be awesome for those on the journey to cap though.

Thanks for the great work,

Pup

It appears 612 needs to be flagged to be allowed to cast in sanctified rooms.

K>incant 612
You gesture while summoning the spirits of nature to aid you with the Breeze spell...
Your spell is ready.
Be at peace my child, there is no need for spells of war in here.

Also, 610. I understand creature immunities may be getting looked at after release which is great. But if creatures are still immune (which I'm ok with) can we at least have the vine not auto focus on them and instead switch to something else? Since you cannot STOP 610 once it has been cast and you cannot target another creature to cast 610 at to summon a new vine OR retarget the existing vine...you're kinda hosed for a bit.

A few first impressions after spending a good chuck of the day playing with these on the test server.

Disclaimer: The interactions on these changes are pretty complex (and impressive). I’m sure I will change my mind completely wrong about at least some of this - and that I am missing many things.

Well Deserved Praise.

This is a remarkable overhaul of an existing class. It has a ton of quality of life. It doesn’t break anything existing that I can see. Wow!

I think the improvements for physical rangers are being under-rated by many because the mechanism for change is “spells” and the starting point was a "druid" like build. If paladin’s changes are aiming for combat enhanced by magic, this is kind of like magic enhanced by combat. Still very much a semi. People make runestaff builds now, so I am sure they still will, but this has something for everyone and pushes in a more dynamic direction.

Magical combat (where I spent most of my time) is dynamic and has lots of flavor. The way the spells interact and layer on each other reminds me a little of the new cleric spells.

There is a clear through line and design here, and it feels like it builds on the class. Yay.

Gaps?

Disclaimer: This is not core to the design of what’s on the test server, but rather thoughts about how it might be developed in future inspired by the current changes.

Spells like 625 incentivize using both a weapon and magic. I think this is good! Taking it further might use lores so that this “combination” path can better compensate for the blind spots that incentivize other training plans (for example: pure magic focus arguably allows for hunting a wider variety of creatures than archery. Maybe some lores to get a waylay type option for bows. TWC physical builds with MOC allows rangers to handle crowds - maybe a different lore path to help cover that weakness).

I also wonder about magic leaning ranger’s whose mana pool built around COL mechanic (and not using any combat as a result), but maybe the recent mana changes mean it doesn’t matter?

One nice thing about these changes is that taken together I don’t think they actually change the overall power level of rangers that much. Some may complain, but the upside is that it leaves room to tweak, and power is overrated.


Spike thorn is now less an “all-in-one” spell. You need to set it up more now. Some won’t like this, but I think it is a big win for fun & flavor. It does add time to combat. That’s a good trade-off for most of the game - but I wonder about the endgame when every second matters - getting caught in round time when something else walks in is too deadly. Just as the cleric spells are fun for a while but in the end a lot of people end up just 317/240 - only with this the old spike thorn is not longer there. Not sure what to do (an amped up tangle weed running the background to protect you from the unexpected? More “get out of RT” spell/maneuver’s?, AOE review? I dunno really tackling that is probably a whole different design doc that cuts across classes).

In any case, those are my thoughts. Hope they help.

Sorry for the long posts, one last little set of notes and (minor) critiques. (The long post above is my glowing praise, this one is my minor criticisms haha)

- First I meant to type imbue in my post above (not embed).

- Secondly I didn't actually use barkskin very much. I LOVE that it's a part of our kit now, but its duration/benefits seem too small/short to be of much use. I think both the original 60 sec duration is too small, and/or the 5 min wait-to-recast window too large. And/or the chance of enduring too small. It only prevents ONE attack, and I kept forgetting to use it or try to keep it active because it seemed too short and not useful enough. If it had maybe a 5 min duration window after the original cast I'd remember to cast it before leaving to hunt, or if it had a faster recast time than 5 minutes I'd remember to keep it active during a hunt, or if it had better chances of persisting I'd use it more. I dunno, currently it was something I thought 'oh cool!' and also 'thematically appropriate!' but then kept forgetting to actually keep in use because it felt a little too limited to remember to pay attention to.

- And lastly, I love the design of 650 (assume aspect) a LOT. It's a really fun spell design with a lot of variety in how it's used, and I love that (as I've posted on these forums before). It's fun, and flavorful. However it feels very slightly underpowered for a 50-mana top-of-class spell circle spell. I enjoy now that we can set one aspect for its full duration, but at half-effect it doesn't quite seem worth the mana using. It's always felt SLIGHTLY underpowered for a 50-mana spell in the old (current) system, and the new changes don't do much to effect that. If anything, I'd love to just be able to select an aspect for the full duration without the half-power loss. Or maybe even keep the existing system, but maybe add a bonus to switching aspects or something to encourage changing them. I don't know. It's a wonderfully designed spell, with a lot of creativity and rangerly theme, I just wish it had a tiny bit more oomph, and I like the thought process behind the update but the half-power restriction makes me not want to use it the new way at all over the old way.

Wracking my brain for any other feedback, if I think of anything I'll post it. Overall though, again, kudos on the new changes, I love them and can't wait for them to go live.

I have to agree with others saying that Barkskin's duration is too short and will prolly never be used as a result.

In normal hunting, most rangers aren't going to NEED this spell cause their defenses are pretty solid even without outside spells. Doing bandit tasks, I can see the spell falling just as the they enter a room the bandit's in. In invasions/warcamps there's going to be so many attacks coming in so fast by the time you'd be putting it up that it wouldn't do much good and you really should be spamming 635 or retreating anyway.... if you're not already disabled or dead.

I have a few different suggestions for ways it could be modified that would make it more likely to actually be used (only thinking that one of them would be implemented, not all of them):

* Barkskin is pretty much a more powerful version of 115 (aside from it's too short duration). Just narrow the scope of what triggers it, keep having it drop when it's triggered, and give it the same duration as 115.

* Since I have a hunch that it's meant more for Rangers that haven't learned 640 then those that have, give it a 10 minute duration when it's learned and have its duration reduced by 10 sec for every Ranger spell learned beyond 605, with a floor of 1-2 minutes.

* Make it so it's cast on a critter and prevents it's next offensive action, similar to how 703 works. Blessings lore could either increase the number of actions it prevents OR the number of critters it can hit when cast.


Starchitin, the OG

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.

It's probably late to be asking for this, but a nice extension of Animal Companion would be to allow a ranger to guard another person - say a younger character you might be mentoring or helping out. Or a child or client you're escorting.