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Why does it seem like every item released has to have unlocks to get the "full" item. Is this really necessary? I think it wastes our time and the merchant's. I would rather get the items to look how I want than to just get another fluff tier unlocked that could have just come unlocked with the initial purchase.
There are of course items that warrant unlocking of abilities but it feels like a good 90%+ don't actually need them.
Just my feedback on merchant services as a whole, but it seems particularly relevant with EG on the horizon.
~Sabotage
MEKK51
HATESHI
Re: "Unlocks"
09/30/2019 12:15 PM CDT
Adding to that..
If certain tiers of unlocking/fluff scripts are intended to be more expensive, why not simply use precedent and have unlock certificates readily available to purchase in those same shops at increasing prices? That way, those who are interested in buying an item with a given number of fluff verbs can get it without wasting merchant services or times in the process.
- Overlord EK
>You now regard Eorgina with a warm demeanor.
If certain tiers of unlocking/fluff scripts are intended to be more expensive, why not simply use precedent and have unlock certificates readily available to purchase in those same shops at increasing prices? That way, those who are interested in buying an item with a given number of fluff verbs can get it without wasting merchant services or times in the process.
- Overlord EK
>You now regard Eorgina with a warm demeanor.
MAYLAN
Re: "Unlocks"
09/30/2019 01:36 PM CDT
+100 to this. Fluff unlocking is frustrating busy work. And what I really hate seeing is an item getting released, initial unlock sessions occurring, and that's the end of it. When GMs retire or simply stop offering unlocks for certain scripts, we are stuck with an unfinished item in perpetuity.
I agree with the other poster - sell unlock certificates off the shelf. If you really want every new toy to have unlock tiers, at least make the certificates available for sale off the shelf.
~Land Pirate Maylan~
I agree with the other poster - sell unlock certificates off the shelf. If you really want every new toy to have unlock tiers, at least make the certificates available for sale off the shelf.
~Land Pirate Maylan~
HEBREWTOYOU
Re: "Unlocks"
09/30/2019 01:41 PM CDT
I agree for the most part. It's one thing if the unlocks are easily attained via Xerria (like Pirate Harnesses or AdventureWear), but there are other fluff scripts that are gated by unlocks that simply never happen. FancySheaths and Runestaff Slings are two great examples that come to mind. I would hope that staff could come up with a coherent, well-documented policy on what fluff gets created with unlock tiers and how accessible those unlocks will be. Often times players are forced to make assumptions that these things will be reasonably unlockable, only to find out that it never happens.
I'm not against unlocking, but y'all should really make the rationale and scarcity more transparent to your customers. Just my $0.02.
I'm not against unlocking, but y'all should really make the rationale and scarcity more transparent to your customers. Just my $0.02.
KRAKII
Re: "Unlocks"
09/30/2019 01:58 PM CDT
Some sort of "tattered certificate" carried in on a creature/in a box, where a scroll or other miscellaneous trinket could be, would make an excellent addition to the random treasure.
Allows you to 'redeem' it with one of the items for a fluff tier (I would NOT allow mechanical tiers, like Voln or Ithzir armor).
Rare is fine, maybe not more than 1/day (or even 1/week?) per instance, but feel free to recycle ones that never get found because people leave boxes behind.
Really, what does an extra ~50 tiers of unlocks so some lucky souls on the Elemental Slings break? Even if I can't use it, I can always sell it.
Allows you to 'redeem' it with one of the items for a fluff tier (I would NOT allow mechanical tiers, like Voln or Ithzir armor).
Rare is fine, maybe not more than 1/day (or even 1/week?) per instance, but feel free to recycle ones that never get found because people leave boxes behind.
Really, what does an extra ~50 tiers of unlocks so some lucky souls on the Elemental Slings break? Even if I can't use it, I can always sell it.
KRISTENL
Re: "Unlocks"
09/30/2019 02:25 PM CDT
I remember when unlocks first became a "thing". If I'm not mistaken it was around the time of the Dhu Gillywack, or at least this was when I personally first encountered them - the 2004 run. I hated them then, and I still don't like them now. It feels like such a waste to have put all this effort into making an item and very few people are able to experience their full effect.
If I'm not mistaken, the argument from some GMs that it makes the item all the more special when it has to be unlocked. That's a matter of opinion, and one I don't completely agree with.
Looking back, I assumed it was in part a way to make you make a decision - unlock or alter. If you pick unlock, quite frequently you've just saved a large chunk of GM time. And since unlocks are harder to come by, more people end up choosing them. That's how it's always felt to me, anyway.
So, I have to say that I would absolutely love to be able to buy certificates from the shop the item was sold in. I'd even pay a premium to do so, in some cases. Perhaps add unlocking as a scroll-based premium point service. Or, add certificates to a table in the lighthouse for those more popular items. The idea of finding certificates in treasure boxes is a brilliant idea.
I'm sure not all GMs would want to do so with their items, but it would be nice if some did.
If I'm not mistaken, the argument from some GMs that it makes the item all the more special when it has to be unlocked. That's a matter of opinion, and one I don't completely agree with.
Looking back, I assumed it was in part a way to make you make a decision - unlock or alter. If you pick unlock, quite frequently you've just saved a large chunk of GM time. And since unlocks are harder to come by, more people end up choosing them. That's how it's always felt to me, anyway.
So, I have to say that I would absolutely love to be able to buy certificates from the shop the item was sold in. I'd even pay a premium to do so, in some cases. Perhaps add unlocking as a scroll-based premium point service. Or, add certificates to a table in the lighthouse for those more popular items. The idea of finding certificates in treasure boxes is a brilliant idea.
I'm sure not all GMs would want to do so with their items, but it would be nice if some did.
WORDMAGIC
Re: "Unlocks"
09/30/2019 02:32 PM CDT
>>+100 to this. Fluff unlocking is frustrating busy work. And what I really hate seeing is an item getting released, initial unlock sessions occurring, and that's the end of it. When GMs retire or simply stop offering unlocks for certain scripts, we are stuck with an unfinished item in perpetuity.
Chiming in to +1 this, all over the place. Unlocks are a real drag. They are also, the last few years, a huge part of EG merchant week. I skipped merchant week last year, because of this unlock prevalence.
Automating unlocks would sure save everyone involved an insane amount of time.
~Amanda, player of Treeva
Chiming in to +1 this, all over the place. Unlocks are a real drag. They are also, the last few years, a huge part of EG merchant week. I skipped merchant week last year, because of this unlock prevalence.
Automating unlocks would sure save everyone involved an insane amount of time.
~Amanda, player of Treeva
BBRODRIGUEZ
Re: "Unlocks"
09/30/2019 02:45 PM CDT
>I remember when unlocks first became a "thing". If I'm not mistaken it was around the time of the Dhu Gillywack, or at least this was when I personally first encountered them - the 2004 run. I hated them then, and I still don't like them now. It feels like such a waste to have put all this effort into making an item and very few people are able to experience their full effect.
I don't recall unlocks back then....I won a couple items from the Dhu Gillywack when it was here and nothing comes to mind that required unlocks. But, then again, it was some time back and I don't remember everything.
I noticed unlocks started to become the norm about 5 years ago (I know some unlock things were around before that, but they weren't horribly common), especially at big events such as EG. It become horribly apparent during 2015 EG when lots of stuff were locked behind "unlocks". I though the Shock Weapons would be neat to have, but you needed to have an ungodly amount of unlocks to get them fully unlocked and that was the red flag - unlocks were the next dumb thing to milk people out of more time and possibly money.
The rate the mechanical unlocks are offered are abysmal - folks are extremely lucky to get their Voln armor fully unlocked or shock weapons unlocked to a high tier.....I doubt there are any fully unlocked shock weapons, but I could be wrong since I don't follow shock weapons and I don't really hear anyone asking for them.
I hate unlocks and I avoid items that require them, for the most part. Only item in recent past I recall getting that had some sort of unlock on it where the Bazzelwyn casting gloves. I got a pair unlocked.
I guess I don't really have a dog in the fight about unlocks since I try to avoid them, but I do think they're a nasty way to trick people into buying certain items as they clamor for the precious, rare unlocks that nary see the light of day so they can continue to spend a little extra cash to attend EG or work on buying some cert from an event such as DR.....
I don't recall unlocks back then....I won a couple items from the Dhu Gillywack when it was here and nothing comes to mind that required unlocks. But, then again, it was some time back and I don't remember everything.
I noticed unlocks started to become the norm about 5 years ago (I know some unlock things were around before that, but they weren't horribly common), especially at big events such as EG. It become horribly apparent during 2015 EG when lots of stuff were locked behind "unlocks". I though the Shock Weapons would be neat to have, but you needed to have an ungodly amount of unlocks to get them fully unlocked and that was the red flag - unlocks were the next dumb thing to milk people out of more time and possibly money.
The rate the mechanical unlocks are offered are abysmal - folks are extremely lucky to get their Voln armor fully unlocked or shock weapons unlocked to a high tier.....I doubt there are any fully unlocked shock weapons, but I could be wrong since I don't follow shock weapons and I don't really hear anyone asking for them.
I hate unlocks and I avoid items that require them, for the most part. Only item in recent past I recall getting that had some sort of unlock on it where the Bazzelwyn casting gloves. I got a pair unlocked.
I guess I don't really have a dog in the fight about unlocks since I try to avoid them, but I do think they're a nasty way to trick people into buying certain items as they clamor for the precious, rare unlocks that nary see the light of day so they can continue to spend a little extra cash to attend EG or work on buying some cert from an event such as DR.....
KRISTENL
Re: "Unlocks"
09/30/2019 03:06 PM CDT
>I don't recall unlocks back then....I won a couple items from the Dhu Gillywack when it was here and nothing comes to mind that required unlocks. But, then again, it was some time back and I don't remember everything.
It was Sister Olba vials. And you're right, it actually was the Revel of the Anfelt, 2006. Another one from around that time was Iasha weapons on the Wavedancer, 2005. Anyway, I'm not sure that there were a lot of items or even many others, but the vial is the item I was referring to.
Locked items have been around a while, it's just grown in frequency. I think Xerria started doing unlocking around 2012, so definitely before that.
It was Sister Olba vials. And you're right, it actually was the Revel of the Anfelt, 2006. Another one from around that time was Iasha weapons on the Wavedancer, 2005. Anyway, I'm not sure that there were a lot of items or even many others, but the vial is the item I was referring to.
Locked items have been around a while, it's just grown in frequency. I think Xerria started doing unlocking around 2012, so definitely before that.
OM1E5GA
Re: "Unlocks"
09/30/2019 04:21 PM CDT
For fluff items, whatever GMs have to do behind the scenes for unlocking should really be standardized if it isn't already... then they could release automated methods for unlocking any of them and any GM could unlock anything released after the standardization. Heck, could even have certificates show up in boxes that would unlock anything you happened to have rather then just specific things.
Would go a long way towards resolving the problem of having untold numbers of unlockable items that only ever have unlocking sessions at the time of their release. I get there are reasons it might not be good for mechanical unlocks, but if it's just messaging....
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Would go a long way towards resolving the problem of having untold numbers of unlockable items that only ever have unlocking sessions at the time of their release. I get there are reasons it might not be good for mechanical unlocks, but if it's just messaging....
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
DOUG
GRUMSKULL
Re: "Unlocks"
09/30/2019 09:09 PM CDT
Same, I have way too many “unfinished” pieces which will never be able to be completed ever.
NAAMIT
Re: "Unlocks"
09/30/2019 09:14 PM CDT
+100 on this as well.
At a minimum, anything that has been out for 12-24 months should just go on the Xerria list by default.
At a minimum, anything that has been out for 12-24 months should just go on the Xerria list by default.
VERSIN
Re: "Unlocks"
10/01/2019 12:02 PM CDT
+100.
As other posters said, too many items never have subsequent unlocking sessions.
As other posters said, too many items never have subsequent unlocking sessions.
SIMU-WYROM
Re: "Unlocks"
10/02/2019 02:40 PM CDT
Unlocking started as early as GemStone III, but became more of a thing soon after GemStone IV.
The scripted item guidelines that everyone here is talking about on unlocks started in 2005. This was largely set up because of not wanting to limit inventory. GMs wanted to create really intricate things, but didn't want them commonplace. So that's when things got watered down so there were versions that everyone could get, but then versions that maybe only 20 or less people could get. Same thing happened with auction quality stuff. All the work was put into a scripted item with intentions of only 1 or 2 going out, so a "lite" version was made.
We already offer unlimited base versions of something, but we could sell 20 (random number for an example) of an unlocked versions. I don't see that solution being much better. It just caters to another subset of player with first come, first serve. We do this a lot at Duskruin already.
If the question is asking about selling unlimited numbers of unlocked items, I don't think that will happen. This is largely due to either intended rarity or the unique nature of some scripted items.
If I'm missing the point, please clarify!
>>Locked items have been around a while, it's just grown in frequency. I think Xerria started doing unlocking around 2012, so definitely before that.
This is largely due to the frequency of events happening, both free and pay. We also push out much higher numbers of inventory than we did ten years ago.
Wyrom, PM
The scripted item guidelines that everyone here is talking about on unlocks started in 2005. This was largely set up because of not wanting to limit inventory. GMs wanted to create really intricate things, but didn't want them commonplace. So that's when things got watered down so there were versions that everyone could get, but then versions that maybe only 20 or less people could get. Same thing happened with auction quality stuff. All the work was put into a scripted item with intentions of only 1 or 2 going out, so a "lite" version was made.
We already offer unlimited base versions of something, but we could sell 20 (random number for an example) of an unlocked versions. I don't see that solution being much better. It just caters to another subset of player with first come, first serve. We do this a lot at Duskruin already.
If the question is asking about selling unlimited numbers of unlocked items, I don't think that will happen. This is largely due to either intended rarity or the unique nature of some scripted items.
If I'm missing the point, please clarify!
>>Locked items have been around a while, it's just grown in frequency. I think Xerria started doing unlocking around 2012, so definitely before that.
This is largely due to the frequency of events happening, both free and pay. We also push out much higher numbers of inventory than we did ten years ago.
Wyrom, PM
KRAKII
Re: "Unlocks"
10/02/2019 03:25 PM CDT
I think that if you (in the corporate sense, "GemStone GMs") set out with the intent of making 4- and 5-tier items (like the sigil staff, or Voln & Ithzir armor) on a regular basis, that would be about the right level of "power".
Then do that, for MANY/MOST things. (You've got time, after all: the thing you worked on last year is still going to be on the shelf for this year and next [if only a 3-year cycle], and maybe 2-3 more years beyond that [if a 5- or 6-year cycle].)
WRITE IN EXPLICIT PERMISSIONS into the script, such that the item can stay in the cycle even if the GM leaves staff. One very big part of the problem, I'm sure, has been The Case of the Vanishing Staffer. "We're not allowed to tinker with that script. Sorry."
.
If people knew that they could plan towards <New Power Tier X> for <last year's toy to upgrade at Event Y> for <some number of years Z>, they may be more willing to commit to buying in on that event in subsequent years, because they KNOW that <50 unlocks> are available for Tier2, and if they spend a lot of time on <Game System Q> they can find certificates for Tier3, and then NEXT year they scurry to the HESS for Tier4.
Or whatever.
| - OTS is tier1, with some standard degree of usability. Unlimited purchases, though possibly only at the event while running (these things are EG, while those things are Duskruin, and that set of stuff is Summer Festival). They reliably come back for AT LEAST 3-6 years, because... |
| ...all the rest of the tiers require unlocking. |
| - Tier2 is widely available, if you concentrate on getting it. Maybe in the area of dozens of unlocks at an event, but, yes, they WILL likely sell out (if people are wanting the item). |
| - Tier3 is where you start seeing some REAL power out of the item (again: sigil staff is a stand-out example). Maybe only a couple of them released at any given event, certainly not more than a handful. (But with a 3-6 year minimum cycle, that still means easily 1-4 dozen of them floating around the game.) Good, but niche; not overwhelming. And no "instant jumps" (like Acuity) to this stage, unless it is a rare win. |
| - Tier4 is where you start seeing the real difficulty in advancement. Absolutely not more than 1-2 at an event. (But with a 3-6 year cycle... there's still a dozen of them.) And these ones are pretty sweet. |
| - Tier5 is As Good As It Gets. They're powerful. They're the "Gandalf's Staff" or "Excalibur" range. They've got a variety of goodies, and nothing bad about them. D&D's classic, "The Rod Of Lordly Might", transposed to GemStone. One per year, at best. You have sunk a LOT of effort into getting one, but they're WORTH it. (And I have to call out the sigil staff again. "Tier5 gives flare of 'what I just cast'? Please sir, may I have another?!?") |
Then do that, for MANY/MOST things. (You've got time, after all: the thing you worked on last year is still going to be on the shelf for this year and next [if only a 3-year cycle], and maybe 2-3 more years beyond that [if a 5- or 6-year cycle].)
WRITE IN EXPLICIT PERMISSIONS into the script, such that the item can stay in the cycle even if the GM leaves staff. One very big part of the problem, I'm sure, has been The Case of the Vanishing Staffer. "We're not allowed to tinker with that script. Sorry."
.
If people knew that they could plan towards <New Power Tier X> for <last year's toy to upgrade at Event Y> for <some number of years Z>, they may be more willing to commit to buying in on that event in subsequent years, because they KNOW that <50 unlocks> are available for Tier2, and if they spend a lot of time on <Game System Q> they can find certificates for Tier3, and then NEXT year they scurry to the HESS for Tier4.
Or whatever.
SIMU-WYROM
Re: "Unlocks"
10/02/2019 07:55 PM CDT
>>WRITE IN EXPLICIT PERMISSIONS into the script, such that the item can stay in the cycle even if the GM leaves staff. One very big part of the problem, I'm sure, has been The Case of the Vanishing Staffer. "We're not allowed to tinker with that script. Sorry."
I think this is a big misunderstanding on how scripts work, especially for those that are being used as an example. While, yes, the script owner typically controls the flow of releases, the script owner isn't the only person that approves of the use of the script. So if I put notes into a script I wrote on what to do, it doesn't mean that a GM can do anything with it. For example, I am not the only person who approves the release of RotFlares.
Wyrom, PM
I think this is a big misunderstanding on how scripts work, especially for those that are being used as an example. While, yes, the script owner typically controls the flow of releases, the script owner isn't the only person that approves of the use of the script. So if I put notes into a script I wrote on what to do, it doesn't mean that a GM can do anything with it. For example, I am not the only person who approves the release of RotFlares.
Wyrom, PM
OM1E5GA
Re: "Unlocks"
10/03/2019 04:51 AM CDT
<If I'm missing the point, please clarify!>
It feels like you are. We, or at least I, were referring to things similar to prayer beads, hair do-hickies, or rainbow wear... unlocks for these things things have effectively been released on an unlimited basis for anyone willing to put fourth a modicum of effort. Either by going to a monthly merchant, getting an unlocking certificate that was released in huge numbers in mini-games, or collecting collectibles.
There are plenty of other fluff items like them that had unlocks offered whole-sale at their release events but which were effectively forgotten afterwards. Anyone with these items that wasn't able to get them unlocked at that time for whatever reason is just SOL if they want them unlocked now.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
It feels like you are. We, or at least I, were referring to things similar to prayer beads, hair do-hickies, or rainbow wear... unlocks for these things things have effectively been released on an unlimited basis for anyone willing to put fourth a modicum of effort. Either by going to a monthly merchant, getting an unlocking certificate that was released in huge numbers in mini-games, or collecting collectibles.
There are plenty of other fluff items like them that had unlocks offered whole-sale at their release events but which were effectively forgotten afterwards. Anyone with these items that wasn't able to get them unlocked at that time for whatever reason is just SOL if they want them unlocked now.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
KRAKII
Re: "Unlocks"
10/03/2019 08:38 AM CDT
That's good to hear, Wyrom.
Understand where most of us are coming from, though: repeatedly hearing that the creator of the script is no longer on staff, so no-one is cleared to make changes/updates/additional releases.
(To be fair: I believe that I have heard a LOT less of that in the last, oh, handful of years. But since there are not too many unlockable items--with a very small number of exceptions--that I actually purchase/care about, I listen a lot less hard in this regard, too. :)
Understand where most of us are coming from, though: repeatedly hearing that the creator of the script is no longer on staff, so no-one is cleared to make changes/updates/additional releases.
(To be fair: I believe that I have heard a LOT less of that in the last, oh, handful of years. But since there are not too many unlockable items--with a very small number of exceptions--that I actually purchase/care about, I listen a lot less hard in this regard, too. :)
MEKK51
Re: "Unlocks"
10/03/2019 09:29 AM CDT
To clarify I'm not talking about things like the sigil staffs or other mechanically useful items. I am talking about purely fluff items, which EG is known for. Is it really needed for hair ties to have 4 unlocks? I dont think so.
All I'm asking is for GMs to consider their customers. Ask yourself if this item really needs an unlock at all. There should be more items to customize your character, not less.
~Sabotage
All I'm asking is for GMs to consider their customers. Ask yourself if this item really needs an unlock at all. There should be more items to customize your character, not less.
~Sabotage
SIMU-WYROM
Re: "Unlocks"
10/03/2019 12:29 PM CDT
>>It feels like you are. We, or at least I, were referring to things similar to prayer beads, hair do-hickies, or rainbow wear... unlocks for these things things have effectively been released on an unlimited basis for anyone willing to put fourth a modicum of effort. Either by going to a monthly merchant, getting an unlocking certificate that was released in huge numbers in mini-games, or collecting collectibles.
While it might feel unlimited when being offered, it is limited because it's time based. We gauge the amount of unlocks a GM can do in an hour or two per merchant session, so we have an idea on a range. And it still gets approved by the creator/owner. I couldn't just start offering an unlocking service for Iasha to tier 2. Xerria, for example, gets approvals for all the things she offers.
>>There are plenty of other fluff items like them that had unlocks offered whole-sale at their release events but which were effectively forgotten afterwards.
Are there any examples of this? Most script creators/owners are excited about their projects, so it's not common that they are just left.
>>repeatedly hearing that the creator of the script is no longer on staff, so no-one is cleared to make changes/updates/additional releases.
Someone has to pick the script up. By default they go to the team's Senior GameMaster. Now there are instances of something not seeing the light of day. If the script is poorly written. If the script had little appeal. If the script is overly complex. It's rare that it happens, but it has happened back in my earlier days. In most cases, GMs are eager to pick up scripts though. It's pretty rare that it happens, but it does happen.
>>I am talking about purely fluff items, which EG is known for. Is it really needed for hair ties to have 4 unlocks? I dont think so.
We do have a set guideline on verb traps. The more verb traps, the more unlock tiers. The rough guidelines are every 4 verbs, with the intended rarity increasing at each tier. This gets reviewed a lot each year though. With events like Duskruin, we started introducing unlocked/fully unlocked versions at different price points. We've also been adding unlock certs here and there. Those do require edits to the script though, and not all GMs want that.
Wyrom, PM
While it might feel unlimited when being offered, it is limited because it's time based. We gauge the amount of unlocks a GM can do in an hour or two per merchant session, so we have an idea on a range. And it still gets approved by the creator/owner. I couldn't just start offering an unlocking service for Iasha to tier 2. Xerria, for example, gets approvals for all the things she offers.
>>There are plenty of other fluff items like them that had unlocks offered whole-sale at their release events but which were effectively forgotten afterwards.
Are there any examples of this? Most script creators/owners are excited about their projects, so it's not common that they are just left.
>>repeatedly hearing that the creator of the script is no longer on staff, so no-one is cleared to make changes/updates/additional releases.
Someone has to pick the script up. By default they go to the team's Senior GameMaster. Now there are instances of something not seeing the light of day. If the script is poorly written. If the script had little appeal. If the script is overly complex. It's rare that it happens, but it has happened back in my earlier days. In most cases, GMs are eager to pick up scripts though. It's pretty rare that it happens, but it does happen.
>>I am talking about purely fluff items, which EG is known for. Is it really needed for hair ties to have 4 unlocks? I dont think so.
We do have a set guideline on verb traps. The more verb traps, the more unlock tiers. The rough guidelines are every 4 verbs, with the intended rarity increasing at each tier. This gets reviewed a lot each year though. With events like Duskruin, we started introducing unlocked/fully unlocked versions at different price points. We've also been adding unlock certs here and there. Those do require edits to the script though, and not all GMs want that.
Wyrom, PM
GRUMSKULL
Re: "Unlocks"
10/03/2019 01:02 PM CDT
Honestly Wyrom, I would much prefer something to not have unlocking and stay rare wih no OTS version. This will in fact increase the item’s value and scarcity and keep the “Oohh Ahhh” moments alive in Gemstone.
Either that or keep it to a unlock and not T1 Cat.C B3 Lev. 5 Multi-Unlocks of Doooom, which is just asinine levels of annoying. At that point you’re almost taunting the player by letting him purchase a T0 version of the item.
BBRODRIGUEZ
Re: "Unlocks"
10/03/2019 01:45 PM CDT
>We do have a set guideline on verb traps. The more verb traps, the more unlock tiers. The rough guidelines are every 4 verbs, with the intended rarity increasing at each tier. This gets reviewed a lot each year though. With events like Duskruin, we started introducing unlocked/fully unlocked versions at different price points. We've also been adding unlock certs here and there. Those do require edits to the script though, and not all GMs want that.
>-Wyrom
I don't enjoy the unlocks. They're tedious and generally a joke. By joke, I mean:
Outright sucks in terms of unlocks being rarely offered at decent intervals or so few are given out it's nearly impossible on a disturbingly unnecessary level to obtain multiple unlocks on a item (at least that's what I've heard folks say about unlocks and generally that's how I've seen them as well). Sure, getting the first unlock is usually pretty easy - some cert is sold or found digging or the merchant is around multiple times throughout the week to offer T1 unlocks. T2, these are much harder to come across - a couple may be raffled off or a few rare, hard to find certs are found in games. T3 - almost never offered on the immediate release of an item. If it is, it's just one or maybe two offerings in a raffle. Then any unlocks above that almost never come around or of they do, again, horribly limited by a raffle.
Fluff items with 3/4/5/6+ unlocks is horribly excessive, if you ask me.
What am I going to do that's so great in the game where I can TILT my hat with some extra messaging over not being able to TILT my hat?
Folks regard unlocked fluff items worth varying amounts. For a few folks, a fully unlocked item may be priceless. To most others, it's still just a piece of fluff that they wear and generally forgot about the extra verbs it allows.
I won a few T5 items from EG 4-5 years back now that were just fully unlocked fluff items....to me, those are pretty lame T5 items. It took a long while, but I eventually found a couple of people that found them interesting and I think I was able to sell them off for a total of 250k a pop and made a total 500k in silvers....I was on the verge of just dumping them on the ground in TSC because of how long I held them before anyone showed any interest. I mean, wow....T4 unlocked fluff items as a T5 prize! They had zero mechanical purpose, just strictly fluff items.
I think you guys may be overhyping in your own minds, the appeal of fully unlocked fluff items....then again, I'm just one person and I don't really enjoy them because they take way too long and require way too much work and/or silvers in hopes of getting them fully unlocked for just a few extra verbs to use.
>-Wyrom
I don't enjoy the unlocks. They're tedious and generally a joke. By joke, I mean:
Outright sucks in terms of unlocks being rarely offered at decent intervals or so few are given out it's nearly impossible on a disturbingly unnecessary level to obtain multiple unlocks on a item (at least that's what I've heard folks say about unlocks and generally that's how I've seen them as well). Sure, getting the first unlock is usually pretty easy - some cert is sold or found digging or the merchant is around multiple times throughout the week to offer T1 unlocks. T2, these are much harder to come across - a couple may be raffled off or a few rare, hard to find certs are found in games. T3 - almost never offered on the immediate release of an item. If it is, it's just one or maybe two offerings in a raffle. Then any unlocks above that almost never come around or of they do, again, horribly limited by a raffle.
Fluff items with 3/4/5/6+ unlocks is horribly excessive, if you ask me.
What am I going to do that's so great in the game where I can TILT my hat with some extra messaging over not being able to TILT my hat?
Folks regard unlocked fluff items worth varying amounts. For a few folks, a fully unlocked item may be priceless. To most others, it's still just a piece of fluff that they wear and generally forgot about the extra verbs it allows.
I won a few T5 items from EG 4-5 years back now that were just fully unlocked fluff items....to me, those are pretty lame T5 items. It took a long while, but I eventually found a couple of people that found them interesting and I think I was able to sell them off for a total of 250k a pop and made a total 500k in silvers....I was on the verge of just dumping them on the ground in TSC because of how long I held them before anyone showed any interest. I mean, wow....T4 unlocked fluff items as a T5 prize! They had zero mechanical purpose, just strictly fluff items.
I think you guys may be overhyping in your own minds, the appeal of fully unlocked fluff items....then again, I'm just one person and I don't really enjoy them because they take way too long and require way too much work and/or silvers in hopes of getting them fully unlocked for just a few extra verbs to use.
MEKK51
Re: "Unlocks"
10/03/2019 05:34 PM CDT
<<We do have a set guideline on verb traps. The more verb traps, the more unlock tiers. The rough guidelines are every 4 verbs, with the intended rarity increasing at each tier. This gets reviewed a lot each year though. With events like Duskruin, we started introducing unlocked/fully unlocked versions at different price points. We've also been adding unlock certs here and there. Those do require edits to the script though, and not all GMs want that.
I'm just offering my feedback to you and it seems like at least a few agree. Fluff unlocks could use a little more leeway I think but that's just my opinion.
~Sabotage
I'm just offering my feedback to you and it seems like at least a few agree. Fluff unlocks could use a little more leeway I think but that's just my opinion.
~Sabotage
SIMU-WYROM
Re: "Unlocks"
10/03/2019 07:25 PM CDT
Which fluff scripts have 6+ unlock tiers? Or even 4+?
Wyrom, PM
Wyrom, PM
TIGGEREYE
Re: "Unlocks"
10/04/2019 02:45 AM CDT
Rainbowear and Daxela jewelry boxes are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head with 4+ unlocks. Most items have 3 unlocks. But then there are also items like Xojium staves/robes, spider bags, morphing clothing, and more, that get reeally tedious with the one action/spider/side per visit plus tiers plus it needs to be a willing(and trained) merchant before noon on Sundays and it doesn't matter anyway because the absolute final top end product is not meant to be attainable through unlocks anymore.. etc.
I think the main issue is that I'm not sure many people want a tier 0 item, and if they do purchase a t0, they want a -chance- to get that final tier at some point.
___________________________________
The flamepoint sand kitten hisses at a patchwork flesh monstrosity.
... 9 points of damage!
I think the main issue is that I'm not sure many people want a tier 0 item, and if they do purchase a t0, they want a -chance- to get that final tier at some point.
___________________________________
The flamepoint sand kitten hisses at a patchwork flesh monstrosity.
... 9 points of damage!
LUXELLE
Re: "Unlocks"
10/04/2019 08:35 AM CDT
There was a line of weapons sold in a shop that last year at Feywrot Mire which had at least 12 levels of fluff unlocks.
So I'll just leave that out there.
---
;tune towncrier
Rohese: "... the TownCrier (tune in if you haven’t, it’s without doubt the best thing to ever happen on LNet)"
Xanith: "It's flat out amazing"
Doug: "100.times ^"
Lawronius: The stuff ... the TownCrier team does is incredible.
So I'll just leave that out there.
---
;tune towncrier
Rohese: "... the TownCrier (tune in if you haven’t, it’s without doubt the best thing to ever happen on LNet)"
Xanith: "It's flat out amazing"
Doug: "100.times ^"
Lawronius: The stuff ... the TownCrier team does is incredible.
NAAMIT
Re: "Unlocks"
10/05/2019 09:19 AM CDT
Wyrom, I think the Rainbowear Collectible system items (and what I presume are Wounded Wear in that system also) are about as perfect an example for how we can obtain -- rarely -- unlock certs for some of these outside of festivals. Will either work for everything? No, but for some it definitely will and I would like to encourage staff to try to utilize that -- as well as give Xerria more leeway to unlock items for us.
> Which fluff scripts have 6+ unlock tiers? Or even 4+?
Let's dial it down to 3- I am not going to provide specifics on every one of these because that's more running around helplessly (kinda like trying to chase unlocks)
Xojium (+20)
Daxela (6)
https://gswiki.play.net/Metamorphic_Alterations (T6 + customization)
https://gswiki.play.net/RainboWear(T4; plus customization)
https://gswiki.play.net/Metallic_gown (T4)
https://gswiki.play.net/Peretta_gown (T3 + customization)
https://gswiki.play.net/Peretta_cloak (T3 + customization)
https://gswiki.play.net/Farusteri_gown (T3 + customization)
https://gswiki.play.net/ClimateWear
https://gswiki.play.net/Plumed_Do-Hickey
https://gswiki.play.net/Hair_bauble
https://gswiki.play.net/Garli_jewelry/saved_posts
https://gswiki.play.net/Hkala (T3)
https://gswiki.play.net/Eviscerating_Knife (T3)
Here's some more according to Xerria's list
Dancing Scarves
Yansio Hats (T3)
Fusion Zests (T3)
Shoe Sticks (T3)
Shurley Gloves (T3)
Dancing Shoes (T3)
Fishies (T5?)
Gory Weapon (T3)
Anfelt Edged (T3)
Anfelt Blunt (T3)
Anfelt Polearm (T3)
Anfelt Shield (T3)
Dancing Shoes (T3)
Fancy Weapons (T3)
>I think the main issue is that I'm not sure many people want a tier 0 item, and if they do purchase a t0, they want a -chance- to get that final tier at some point.
This is an accurate assessment.
> Which fluff scripts have 6+ unlock tiers? Or even 4+?
Let's dial it down to 3- I am not going to provide specifics on every one of these because that's more running around helplessly (kinda like trying to chase unlocks)
Xojium (+20)
Daxela (6)
https://gswiki.play.net/Metamorphic_Alterations (T6 + customization)
https://gswiki.play.net/RainboWear(T4; plus customization)
https://gswiki.play.net/Metallic_gown (T4)
https://gswiki.play.net/Peretta_gown (T3 + customization)
https://gswiki.play.net/Peretta_cloak (T3 + customization)
https://gswiki.play.net/Farusteri_gown (T3 + customization)
https://gswiki.play.net/ClimateWear
https://gswiki.play.net/Plumed_Do-Hickey
https://gswiki.play.net/Hair_bauble
https://gswiki.play.net/Garli_jewelry/saved_posts
https://gswiki.play.net/Hkala (T3)
https://gswiki.play.net/Eviscerating_Knife (T3)
Here's some more according to Xerria's list
Dancing Scarves
Yansio Hats (T3)
Fusion Zests (T3)
Shoe Sticks (T3)
Shurley Gloves (T3)
Dancing Shoes (T3)
Fishies (T5?)
Gory Weapon (T3)
Anfelt Edged (T3)
Anfelt Blunt (T3)
Anfelt Polearm (T3)
Anfelt Shield (T3)
Dancing Shoes (T3)
Fancy Weapons (T3)
>I think the main issue is that I'm not sure many people want a tier 0 item, and if they do purchase a t0, they want a -chance- to get that final tier at some point.
This is an accurate assessment.
NAAMIT
Re: "Unlocks"
10/05/2019 09:32 AM CDT
Here's some more -
https://gswiki.play.net/Pirate_Harness (T3)
https://gswiki.play.net/Lapidary_box (T6)
https://gswiki.play.net/Lofty_Aspirations (T3; I think this is a duplicate but given non-standardized script naming conventions it's hard to tell)
https://gswiki.play.net/Mortasha_dancing_shoes (T4; I think this is a duplicate but given non-standardized script naming conventions it's hard to tell)
https://gswiki.play.net/Shurley_scripts (Turns out there's a T4!)
https://gswiki.play.net/Spiffy_jacket (Turns out there's a T4: the hood!)
https://gswiki.play.net/Ziethsmet_locket (So rare no one even knows?)
https://gswiki.play.net/Morphing_Armor (T4, arguably not pure fluff)
SIMU-WYROM
Re: "Unlocks"
10/05/2019 04:40 PM CDT
So tier 3 unlocks should not be something commonly offered. Just to use an example, tier 2 GoryWeapons, I approve only about 12 a year. Tier 3 I limited to 2 a year outside of feeders. Some of this has changed with unlock certs, because I agree for the most part of people want to fully unlock something, they should be able to work toward it at a place like Duskruin.
The whole point of things getting to tier 3 is because we originally intended to only offer 1 or 2 of those things (either total or yearly).
Tier 4 as a special unlock is understandable at least if it's something like a hood or some new layer (from an approval standpoint). Anything over 4 does seem a bit excessive.
Wyrom, PM
The whole point of things getting to tier 3 is because we originally intended to only offer 1 or 2 of those things (either total or yearly).
Tier 4 as a special unlock is understandable at least if it's something like a hood or some new layer (from an approval standpoint). Anything over 4 does seem a bit excessive.
Wyrom, PM
KANDOR
Re: "Unlocks"
10/05/2019 09:35 PM CDT
There's a pretty easy solution to this problem. Avoid buying stuff that needs to be unlocked. If it's something you have to have, pay one of the leeches for the unlocked item later. It will cost more but it carries less uncertainty.
MEKK51
Re: "Unlocks"
10/06/2019 07:04 AM CDT
<There's a pretty easy solution to this problem. Avoid buying stuff that needs to be unlocked.
If it's something that is actually cool and has multiple unlocks, the GM could think that no one wanted it and could abandon it and ideas like it thinking there is little interest. They wouldn't think "Oh, it must be the unlocks that are stopping it from selling."
It honestly just sounds like a disconnect from the company to the consumer. It definitely doesn't make RP sense. I visit a merchant and now I know how to tip my hat? This isn't unlock worthy stuff. All I'm saying is consider the consumer before you put tiers on items. Does it really need to be unlocked? However cool it may be, is this anything more than an RP tool? If the answer is yes to the last question I submit that it shouldn't require unlocking. Let us buy the item and customize it with our merchant time, not farm for unlocks. It was cool and neat 15 years ago, now it is just annoying.
~Sabotage
If it's something that is actually cool and has multiple unlocks, the GM could think that no one wanted it and could abandon it and ideas like it thinking there is little interest. They wouldn't think "Oh, it must be the unlocks that are stopping it from selling."
It honestly just sounds like a disconnect from the company to the consumer. It definitely doesn't make RP sense. I visit a merchant and now I know how to tip my hat? This isn't unlock worthy stuff. All I'm saying is consider the consumer before you put tiers on items. Does it really need to be unlocked? However cool it may be, is this anything more than an RP tool? If the answer is yes to the last question I submit that it shouldn't require unlocking. Let us buy the item and customize it with our merchant time, not farm for unlocks. It was cool and neat 15 years ago, now it is just annoying.
~Sabotage
CHAMALICE1
Re: "Unlocks"
10/06/2019 09:55 AM CDT
<<<+100.
As other posters said, too many items never have subsequent unlocking sessions.>>>
Added to that, while Xerria is wonderful for putting in all the time she does doing these unlocks, her schedule clashes
with a lot of us. I myself have only been able to make one of her sessions in the past year because I just happened to
have that day off.
Certificates would be most appreciated.
A giantman rogue glances at you and shouts, "Ain'tcha got better things to do than pick a fight? Git lost!"
As other posters said, too many items never have subsequent unlocking sessions.>>>
Added to that, while Xerria is wonderful for putting in all the time she does doing these unlocks, her schedule clashes
with a lot of us. I myself have only been able to make one of her sessions in the past year because I just happened to
have that day off.
Certificates would be most appreciated.
A giantman rogue glances at you and shouts, "Ain'tcha got better things to do than pick a fight? Git lost!"
BURGRAFS2
Re: "Unlocks"
10/06/2019 01:33 PM CDT
+1 to having trouble finishing projects with unlocks, particularly fluff items. I have gotten lucky in the past with some things, but things like climatewear and peretta cloaks....I may never get these items finished at the current rate.
I wish some items would be like the nervestaves with attunement, if you wear an item for long enough (aside from probably being smelly) you should have figured out all the verbs for the item by a certain point. It would be nice to have a system kind of like the nervestaves, at least you could get more advantage out of items after using or wearing them long enough instead of having to rely on being lucky. I support a system based on work for reward rather then random luck.
just my 2 cents
Obsalyn
I wish some items would be like the nervestaves with attunement, if you wear an item for long enough (aside from probably being smelly) you should have figured out all the verbs for the item by a certain point. It would be nice to have a system kind of like the nervestaves, at least you could get more advantage out of items after using or wearing them long enough instead of having to rely on being lucky. I support a system based on work for reward rather then random luck.
just my 2 cents
Obsalyn
MEKK51
Re: "Unlocks"
10/06/2019 03:06 PM CDT
<<I wish some items would be like the nervestaves with attunement, if you wear an item for long enough (aside from probably being smelly) you should have figured out all the verbs for the item by a certain point.>>
I like this idea, +1.
~Sabotage
I like this idea, +1.
~Sabotage
CHAMALICE1
Re: "Unlocks"
10/07/2019 02:52 PM CDT
<<I wish some items would be like the nervestaves with attunement, if you wear an item for long enough (aside from probably being smelly) you should have figured out all the verbs for the item by a certain point.>>
That is a wonderful idea, is there even the remotest possibility this can happen?
A giantman rogue glances at you and shouts, "Ain'tcha got better things to do than pick a fight? Git lost!"
That is a wonderful idea, is there even the remotest possibility this can happen?
A giantman rogue glances at you and shouts, "Ain'tcha got better things to do than pick a fight? Git lost!"
GS4-HAXUS
Re: "Unlocks"
10/08/2019 11:42 PM CDT
It's not something that could happen by some automatic process. Each script owner would have to completely overhaul and rewrite their scripts for something like that to happen.
NAAMIT
Re: "Unlocks"
11/02/2019 08:32 AM CDT
I'd like to see a very broad list of unlocking options be offered as Premium Point services.
Some lady softly says, "Naamit is over-rated."
You reply, speaking to the lady, "At least I have ratings."
Some lady softly says, "Naamit is over-rated."
You reply, speaking to the lady, "At least I have ratings."
CLTIDBALL
Re: "Unlocks"
11/11/2019 04:51 PM CST
Jumping in fairly late to the conversation, but....
>a very broad list of unlocking options be offered as Premium Point services.
YES. Please, please, please YES!
I loathe buying most new things these days, just exactly because of the 'unlock' hunt. If I do buy new things, it's because it's either 'fully unlocked' (aka, either actually completely unlocked, or doesn't have any unlocking to do), or I know I can get unlocking certs to the tier of unlock that I actually care about (see: hair baubles and Rose decks at EG2019). If there were some easier way to get certs/unlocking done, that doesn't involve hunting merchants down (including Xerria, because of aforementioned time conflicts), I may actually be interested in the more popular things.
~Cylnthia Kythnis Ardenai
~Paragon of Kuon
~Rose Guardian, House Sylvanfair
>a very broad list of unlocking options be offered as Premium Point services.
YES. Please, please, please YES!
I loathe buying most new things these days, just exactly because of the 'unlock' hunt. If I do buy new things, it's because it's either 'fully unlocked' (aka, either actually completely unlocked, or doesn't have any unlocking to do), or I know I can get unlocking certs to the tier of unlock that I actually care about (see: hair baubles and Rose decks at EG2019). If there were some easier way to get certs/unlocking done, that doesn't involve hunting merchants down (including Xerria, because of aforementioned time conflicts), I may actually be interested in the more popular things.
~Cylnthia Kythnis Ardenai
~Paragon of Kuon
~Rose Guardian, House Sylvanfair
LAWRONIUS
Re: "Unlocks"
11/27/2019 10:43 AM CST
<I loathe buying most new things these days, just exactly because of the 'unlock' hunt. If I do buy new things, it's because it's either 'fully unlocked' (aka, either actually completely unlocked, or doesn't have any unlocking to do), or I know I can get unlocking certs to the tier of unlock that I actually care about (see: hair baubles and Rose decks at EG2019). If there were some easier way to get certs/unlocking done, that doesn't involve hunting merchants down (including Xerria, because of aforementioned time conflicts), I may actually be interested in the more popular things.>
Totally agree with the above, and with pretty much all of the player points in this thread. I also don't buy as many items off the shelf these days because I don't want to go through the hassle of hunting down multiple unlocks that I probably won't ever get to. EVERYTHING has multiple tiers these days, it's frustrating, especially for fluff or decorative items. If there aren't also readily available unlock certificates I'm probably not going to purchase the item these days. I think it's worth listening to what the many voices in this thread seem to be saying in unison.
Totally agree with the above, and with pretty much all of the player points in this thread. I also don't buy as many items off the shelf these days because I don't want to go through the hassle of hunting down multiple unlocks that I probably won't ever get to. EVERYTHING has multiple tiers these days, it's frustrating, especially for fluff or decorative items. If there aren't also readily available unlock certificates I'm probably not going to purchase the item these days. I think it's worth listening to what the many voices in this thread seem to be saying in unison.
