This is going to be a very provocative topic, and while I appreciate that there may be a lot of strong feelings surrounding it, I would politely ask that we keep discussion as civil and productive as possible. Let's try to accomplish something besides "most creative insult" here.

Let me open by saying that among the roleplaying community, there is a tremendous deficiency. One that I guess I have always sort of known existed, but recent events have brought it into very clear focus:

There is next to no upward mobility for any character that is not an Imperial-aligned human warrior, or, to a markedly lesser extent, a member of an elven House. Knights, Legionnaires, and jewels are pretty much it.

Why does this blank spot exist? How can it be corrected?

First of all, let me assure you that I know there are limits. Kenstrom, for instance, is Humans/Landing; therefore, he doesn't have control over what accolades a halfling from Icemule can receive. Second, not everyone is going to get what they want, and there are always going to be hurt feelings. Third, some concepts (such as Golvern Star) should definitely remain out of the hands of players. And finally, accolades should be incredibly rare, to preserve their special mystique.

But surely there must be room for more "official" recognition - look at the accidental success of Mohrgan and Falvicar, who were recently inducted into a brand-new Ronanite order simply because the GMs would have been obscenely remiss to overlook their fabulous contributions to CIS. That was an incredible surprise for everyone, and I hope it's a sign of of things to come.

There's an argument for players inventing very broad-strokes background concepts and breathing life into them via roleplay (for instance, saying your Loenthran elf is a member of the Poet's Society, and embellishing the details on that institution's works and plays as your character grows in-game), but this is also an idea that can be very, very dangerous should lore be mishandled, however intentionally. And I imagine it is a thrill for such an idea to be introduced into official lore, as the Dhe'nar may fondly recall.

But not all players possess that spark, and need that starting point. This is not a condemnation, if you number among them. Sometimes the best ideas are the ones you find lying around, dust off, and make your own. And that is what I would love to see for the great halfling thieves, the wily gnomish inventors, the master dwarven forgers, the proud giantman chieftains, the sylvan hunters, and yes, even the bugmen and the creepy dirt-elves and those weird bald dudes.

What can we do to create these special tiers across all races?

Again, let's keep this conversation productive. If you've gotta make favoritism accusations or cracks about the Simucoin store, I would respectfully ask that you take it to another thread.

Thank you, everyone. Let's work on this together.

---

Khristal asks, "Who uses scimitars anyway?"

Svardin says, "Folks dat should use axes."

You nod sagely.

This is such a great topic, and I think there are many reasons for it:

- The Human/Landing GM is an incredibly active guy. That isn't a slight against other races' and regions' GMs but an acknowledgement that Kenstrom puts in a phenomenal amount of work that not everyone can match.

- While I certainly wouldn't say Kenstrom or anyone who RPs a human well (and there are so, so many right now who do), "human" is kind of the default setting. It's what we as players find most familiar. The farther you move from a culture with that familiar-feeling social structure, lifespan, and history, the more distorted the RP can become and the harder it is to have those hooks Silvean's player mentioned. I play a Faendryl Elf, which is a pretty far stretch from humanity considering she would expect to live a lifetime that, in real life terms, would span from around the time Julius Caesar had a really bad day in April to the moon landing or so. She doesn't have gods but instead aspires to god-hood herself just like any sensible Faendryl woman. Her cultural history stretches back farther than the RL history of agriculture or written language. This person should seem frankly a little alien if you scratch too far beneath the level of friendly greetings and casual conversation. There's no reason she'd expect honors and advancement to accrue in a matter of years or even decades because she's got centuries with which to scheme -- err, I mean, plan for her future.

- Because other races and cultures are farther from humanity, it takes a bit more effort to paint in details about them. We already have in our heads, consciously or unconsciously, some idea of what Turamzzyrian architecture, worship and home life look like; it might look like something from history or from Skyrim or Dragon Age: Inquisition, but it's got tons of historical and fictional parallels. What does Faendryl architecture look like? Do dwarves have a rigid caste system? Does gnomish curiosity and ingenuity affect how they perceive the Arkati or any other deities they might follow? Some of this stuff's in the lore, at least obliquely, but a lot of it isn't. It's hard to reward players with meaningful advancement that fits their characters' race and culture when the outlines of that race and culture are a little hazy. And that brings me to a really really good point you made:

- In the absence of official lore, players will pick up whatever tools they have at hand and hammer out an identity. That isn't always a bad thing, and it's led to a lot of creativity from players that GMs have later built on, creating a beautiful feedback loop that leaves the game richer for everyone. On the other hand, it also leads to (I'll say it) some nonsensical stuff. I don't mean a guy thinking he's a donkey and other people humoring him for some reason; that's weird, but it's a thing some people who feel kindly toward a harmless eccentric might do, and it doesn't contradict what our characters know of the way the world works. I mean people doing stuff that flies in the face of existing lore, essentially declaring themselves donkey-people and getting upset when other people don't accept their donkey-hood.

I suspect that might ruffle a few feathers, which isn't my intent. People are free to fill the gaps the game leaves with something they think is fun, just as the Dhe'nar did when they saw a blank spot in dark elven history into which they could slide some of their own creations. Over many years, it got transmuted from player-made ingenuity into lore -- but only because it filled a gap in the existing lore, not because it replaced it. It's weird enough for me to roleplay a being with a 2,000-year lifespan and aspirations to godhood; she doesn't also have to be a vathor in Faendryl form or the last of the Ur-Daemons or a vampire or a donkey-person (although some people might well call me an ass for griping about RP that contravenes existing or even possible lore). Some people are doing wildly creative things with their characters as individuals, things that make sense based on in-game physics and magic, but others...well, they aren't. That bugs me because having more established lore here would really help a lot of us stay on the same page where we can play together instead of feeling frustrated because one person expects to be regarded as a sparkle-pony vathor-kin and the other is like, "Wait, we don't have those in Elanthia, do we?"

Anyway!

I am one of those people who isn't entirely creative on her own; I need some structure on which to hang my RP. It doesn't matter if that structure comes in the form of a conferred title or position of importance within my character's culture or if it comes from events within the game, but free-form RP has never been my cup of tea. There is no shame in that, to me. On the contrary, when everyone agrees that this culture is like this and that culture is like that, then everyone can play well together. Players of Imperial characters are making the most of that now, and I hope as you do that everyone will get those special tiers, those hooks, that framework on which to build a sturdier RP structure.

Here's what I think might help:

- More activity that involves those other races and cultures. I know how tough that is, especially given how limited GMs' time is and how much they already do for the love of the game (they sure aren't getting rich from it). Bringing in just one or two GM-run NPCs to a story can enrich it tremendously, as it did when the Palestra Blade Aralyte worked with Pylasar. The recent audience with the Argent Mirror was wonderful, and I hope we see more stories unfold from it soon.

- Talk to other players! Building a consensus about what it is to play a Faendryl elf or a Burghal gnome or whatever isn't trying to hammer everyone into cookie-cutter sameness. It's creating a firm foundation to support all characters, those who play archetypal versions and those who play very much against type. Even if you're playing a character who's going his or her own way, talking with other players gives you something to push against. Imperial Humans certainly aren't all alike, yet they have common ground. That's so important to fully realized RP.

- Streamline the Wordsmiths' QA/QC process. When I helped write a piece for it recently, the GMs were quite communicative (especially Scribes -- hi, Scribes!), yet the document took months to move through the editorial process. Again, I know everyone, GMs included, have to pay the bills and can't spend hours looking up obscure bits of dark elven history to make sure a dish served for a wedding feast doesn't contradict some bit released in 1998 about how all Faendryl have sworn off fish after that whole Ashrim business or something, but if there were a more systematized review process, it could mean more documents that flesh out the lore for other races.



Sorry this ran so long. Apparently, I had a whole lot of thoughts about this. I hope other people do too and that this thread draws more voices to a conversation we should all be having. Thank you for starting it!


--- Lauren, Lylia's player

The great unfortunate disclaimer for my response is that its a general one and definitely absent of any authoritative power or opinion.

This is definitely a great conversation, however, and one I definitely have pondered and considered since before I was a GM.

I think generally, GMs like the idea of having a process in place to help promote upward mobility and those that exist already are ones that are also considered very important and not something to hand out lightly. I agree that we should have equivalent systems for dwarves, halflings, and so on. Their creation, usage, and application, however, relies a lot on the guru in charge and GMs running storylines or events that warrant that right response. The best highlight was probably the Griffin Sword Saga about ten years ago, which covered a number of races and made use of the different rewards. Since then, unfortunately, most of the truly epic storylines have centered around human affairs, and this entirely by chance. Thus, the opportunities haven't quite happened, but one could have seen Halfling related titles or positions rewarded in the Thurfel affair, for example.

To remedy this, I would suggest asking your character's race guru to look into it. Even if there are no events at the moment by which to award something, it wouldn't hurt if a system was in place for the next opportunity.

<<Filling in the Blanks

This is definitely something that always brings about a certain amount of risk versus reward. The reward is that you have something to fill in those blanks, something others can latch onto, and push forward to make Gemstone even more thriving in terms of its rich culture and history. The risk is that one day a GM might wander along and fill in those exact same blanks and completely undo what may have been the linchpin of years of one's character's RP, etc. One example could be the Tehir, once a very strong and thriving community, with a lot of player developed ideas on culture and RP for the group. When the official doc came out (and I believe one of the former Tehir players was actually a GM who worked on it), it incorporated a lot of their ideas, but it also made changes which upset some folk. My own doc on Worship and Death in the Empire ruffled a few feathers, after all. In some instances, you do get nearly an entire adoption, like the Dhe'nar.

I do think the reward is worth it, though, for players to drive headlong into creation, so long as they're aware of the risks, and it's because they might well have the opportunity to shape the culture they love when they do so. A document I was working on a few weeks ago (ZOMG, WHICH ONE?!) actually incorporates something that players had been talking about (don't get too excited). I love that there are ideas out there put forward by players and I think great ideas get adopted, short of a guru simply having a dynamically different take all together (this can happen, but quite rarely if there's enough player momentum behind an idea).

The biggest enemy to the expansion of official lore is really time, ability and interest. Some GMs have the time, but neither the ability nor the interest ("Hi, I'm the guy who's obsessed with empath spells!"). Others have the ability, but neither the interest nor the time ("Hi, I'm a five time best selling fantasy author, but I'm busy at the moment!"). Finally, some have the ability and the interest, but not the time, ("Hi, I have the best document idea EVAR, but I just can't find the time around the seven new babies I have and other demands..."). Not all GMs are hired because they want to write or explore races/cultures/etc, which is a good thing, but it also means that the amount of output will never be overwhelming either. Hence, the delay in time between new info and what not. In the pause between one release and the other, I definitely encourage players to fill the blanks in. It will either help inspire a GM down the road, or at the very least, provide the player with something to embrace until an official alternative arises.

p.s. Someone needs to share with me the similarities in Human history to stuff from other games. (I'm a history guy, not a gamer!)

GM Scribes

<I do think the reward is worth it, though, for players to drive headlong into creation, so long as they're aware of the risks, and it's because they might well have the opportunity to shape the culture they love when they do so.

I used to do quite a bit of this back when we had the larger population; though I tend to shy away from it now, for two reasons. One, my main is a Tehir and there are very few of them left in-game, and some basic documentation for them already exists. Two, I don't want to appear to be one of "those" players who run around tied to a pre-determined or self-determined set of rules for their race, class, or culture, or feel the need to enforce that. That's 90% of the reason that Radeek's circle of acquaintances is small and when something is going on of importance he usually says very little.

It's not my place to determine anything for anyone else's character, and even though I love writing stuff like that, and other than the occasional tale of something from Radeek's past or ongoing experiences, I just don't write like that anymore, and even then I normally add some sort of disclaimer stating that not all Tehir do this, or whatever.

General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq

Empires exist through conquest, they live on by exercising total control of the conquered.

Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato

>p.s. Someone needs to share with me the similarities in Human history to stuff from other games. (I'm a history guy, not a gamer!)

The only thing that immediately comes to mind is the general pattern of: Age of God-like-Beings, Age of Elves, Age of Men. (Middle-Earth: Ainur and Maiar, Morgoth banished to outer void; Age of Elves, Sauron vanquished; Age of Men.) => (ShadowWorld: Lords of Essaence, Kadaena's hordes banished to outer void; Age of Elves, Wars of Dominion; Age of Men.) => (Elanthia: Drakes and Arkati, Ur-Daemon banished to outer void; Age of Elves, Despana vanquished; Age of Men.)

You can parse it more strongly than that, like few dragons remaining after the first age or Elven kinslaying, but that's the general flow of things.

>O.P.

The Illistim documentation allows for some upward mobility, though those are branches of the state so it would only apply to citizens. In principle you could get a Loremaster rank, or so on, without whatever mechanical advantages that should be tied with it. We would not actually have "Loremaster" and "Artificer" characters with privileged access to Library Aies. Part of the problem with Elves is the seriousness of their longevity. When your character would have been born around the time the Roman Empire collapsed in real life, you have to wonder to what extent our human sense of prestige goes out the window.

It is difficult to wrap your mind around how Elven society must work. The Illistim monarchs document shows the wide variability of ages at which things happen. One has a child at age 644, another at 3,583. One abdicates the throne at 1,644 and another assumes the throne at 4,309. Lanenreat ruled until age 5,244 and Lady Ardtin was the monarch 4,000 years ago. There must be Elves walking around now who remember the Ashrim War, which they regard as recent history, even though it would have been around -3,000 B.C. when the pyramids were being built in Egypt. But there are much younger Elves in positions of authority, at least in the modern age when most have abandoned hereditary rule and things are relatively meritocratic.

The impression I get is that vocations are almost a lifestyle choice, say an expression of values or heritage, rather than something intrinsically necessary. Elves are meant for making beautiful things, mortals are meant for toiling. An imperial Elf who farms would be playing at being a farmer. It would be very slow by human standards, and possibly not as important. Switch careers after however many centuries of boredom, and suddenly you are starting at the bottom again. But are you? Another subtlety might be if the prestige of high appointments belonged more to families than individuals, which seems plausible for the Elves in general. On the other hand, some roles might be prestigious solely in themselves, the individual being merely the figure responsible for living up to it.

It might be that influence is ultimately more important for Elves than upward mobility as such. Maybe my Dark Elf was something proper centuries ago, but he does not care about whatever that was these days. He is much more interested in shaping the upheaval and chaos of recent years. That might be a window for allowing some relatively rapid recognition or changes from otherwise slow Elves. The way I am handling it with him is that he is outside of the central power structure, because I need an excuse for him adventuring and why he is not some high authority at his age.

His "title" would be whatever his position is exactly in his secret society, which believes a lot of radical things that are often contrary of conventional wisdom. That gives me a lot of buffer for being over-ruled without it mattering. He might argue that Marlu was artificially made by Eorgina and Fash'lo'nae rather than summoned, which he has reason to argue and some bias for believing, but it is not at all the same thing as saying "actually, I'm the grandson of Marlu, who really was an Ur-Daemon and..." But he is also older than the Turamzzyrian Empire timeline, so I get vague on "anecdotal" details because for someone that long-lived, the rise and fall of human kingdoms is meaningless and all looks the same eventually. "Ah, yes. They lost an island that one time... they had fine silk."

- Xorus' player

---

>[Ta'Illistim Keep, The Argentate]

>You settle yourself on the silver throne for a moment's rest.

"Had Aiska been a Faendryl dark elf instead, I would have been presented with a similar conundrum. These days, dark elven culture enjoys a fair level of detail, but the gaps are a bit of an eyesore. There isn't as much info out there about Ta'Faendryl as the Empire... I would have been forced to make it all up as I went, which I am perfectly confident in my ability to do, but that presents two potential heartbreaks: first, Turin's own sobering realization that improvisation means zero movement in any direction, because there's nowhere to go; and second, Scribes's earlier remarks on a GM potentially pulling the rug out should the missing lore ever be defined." (Aiska)

It's tricky. I want to improve on the silence while trying to carefully avoid anything that could be flatly contradicted by future development. And, it should be added, my way of roleplaying and enjoying the game necessarily involves some expression of Faendryl actions and beliefs.

It might be that influence is ultimately more important for Elves than upward mobility as such. Maybe my Dark Elf was something proper centuries ago, but he does not care about whatever that was these days. He is much more interested in shaping the upheaval and chaos of recent years. That might be a window for allowing some relatively rapid recognition or changes from otherwise slow Elves. The way I am handling it with him is that he is outside of the central power structure, because I need an excuse for him adventuring and why he is not some high authority at his age. (Xorus' player)

I realize we're talking a lot about Faendryl characters here, but that's what I know best and probably what Xorus', Turinrond's and Silvean's players find most familiar too. Aelotoi, Gnomes, Dwarves, Sylvans and the rest of the crew have similar concerns, and I hope some players of those races chime in soon. Each race has its own challenges when it comes to defining how they would handle upward mobility, growing influence or increased prestige.

You make a wonderful point. Upward mobility in a society that has people who live for millennia is pretty difficult to fathom, but influence -- something subtler and more gradual -- feels closer to the mark. Any advancement would necessarily be slow; otherwise, all Elves would be at their societal level cap and become bored and fractious like WoW players awaiting a new expansion. The question then becomes how GMs deal with that and incorporate it into lore. There are already some structures in place for advancement, as you described with the Illistim and as official documents describe the Patriarch/Magistrate/Arch-Chancellors/Chancellors/puny little Magnates. Advancement would likely be so slow, though, that awarding any of these titles probably wouldn't happen more than once every few decades (which would be a meteoric rise for someone who has millennia to burn).

Taking it a step further, Aiska was able to advance in her role - she was knighted for that ridiculous affair with the chimera. (Aiska's player)

That's another issue with any kind of upward mobility for other races. Aiska was knighted, and rightly so, for an in-game event. Actual IC history occurred, and she was part of it. Big stuff happened! Would the Basilica acknowledge events with Althedeus in some way, given that a Palestra Blade was directly involved in it and that new valences are of considerable interest to scholars? How do Dwarven leaders feel about what their people did to preserve the Reach and prevent the shadows spreading like another Red Rot? Given how the Argent Mirror feels about the benighted West, might she actually punish people who had the marks of the shadows on them and brought these unsightly stains into her shining city?

Of course, the Sun Throne had more reason to acknowledge what Aiska did because she was directly involved in trying to save Mestanir and the people in it. That battle was fought on Imperial soil, so the Empire obviously cares the most about those events. It'd cheapen those accomplishments if every Gnome, Elf, Dwarf and Giant got a green participation ribbon, and I don't think any player would want that. I hope there'll be some exciting history yet to be written that involves other races and cultures more directly. Even if no one gets a knighthood or chancellorship or Assistant Pooh-Bah rank from it, it'd be wonderful to have that experience.

It's tricky. I want to improve on the silence while trying to carefully avoid anything that could be flatly contradicted by future development. And, it should be added, my way of roleplaying and enjoying the game necessarily involves some expression of Faendryl actions and beliefs. (Silvean's player)

You say it's tricky, but you're so brilliant at it. A lot of my roleplay as Lylia is really just walking in Silvean's footsteps so I know I'm not stepping on other people's toes. Still works after all these years!

Had Aiska been a Faendryl dark elf instead, I would have been presented with a similar conundrum. These days, dark elven culture enjoys a fair level of detail, but the gaps are a bit of an eyesore. There isn't as much info out there about Ta'Faendryl as the Empire. They're essentially an atheist population, but what about the ones in Voln or CoL? If the Palestra are off-limits, then what alternatives can I create for my warrior? And if every other dark elf warrior is improvising in the exact same way, where do our ideas intersect? Do they intersect at all? Is it important that they do? What happens when we inevitably contradict one another? . . . It forces those players to build houses on the sand, and that is a terrible disservice. (Aiska's player)

I can answer the Voln question -- at least for my character. That kind of highlights what you're saying, though, as it's for my character and not something that fits all Faendryl. On the other hand, societies are something a lot of players have to retcon into their characters' histories no matter which race they play. Most people chose early in their characters' lives according to the perks they get and later make the RP fit those choices, it seems.

But you cut to the heart of it when you talk about where people's roleplay intersects. I think it's vitally important that these ideas and roleplay styles intersect in at least a few points. Otherwise, we're no longer playing a structured roleplaying game and are just doing some freeform noodling in a chat room with monsters. Plenty of games offer that kind of experience, but nothing else has the depth and breadth of lore this game does. The trouble is that these depths aren't uniform; some cultures are currently somewhere up on a continental shelf while others reach the abyssal plain. As players, we can try to dig a little deeper into the sand, but as you noted, it's shifty stuff. You were far more eloquent and concise than I was, and I sincerely thank you for starting such a great thread. We need to drag everyone else over here to give their input!

Between your analogy about building on sand and mine of sea floors, I hope everyone realizes we aren't speaking littorally. (Hah! Oh, I slay me.)

--- Lauren, Lylia's player

WARNING classic Bristenn superpost.

I'd vote culturally significant in regards to the sandboxes we have available as opposed to straight up racial- we've had Guardians of IMT, Defenders of WL, even had Protectors of SH, etc., and those seem a bit more grounded in reality when it comes to what Xorus and Lylia touched on regarding character lifespan, time constraints, gaps or haziness in lore, etc and so on.

I don't really advocate carbon copies of Turamzzyrian knighthood for every race/culture, either, because if we approach it from that angle, we encounter two problems: first, lorewise not every race/culture subscribes to the same sort of societal structure and values as the Turamzzyrian Empire does, making the concepts of fealty, vassalage and homage not only alien but in certain cases outright anathema, and second, again what was touched on regarding character lifespan and removal from these societies and their power structures.

An example I ran into yeeeears ago..:

Sylvankind. They have a really wonderful and fleshed out history- and I was helping Laella figure out her character about a dozen some odd years ago. So for a quick history lesson.. 5000+ YA the sylvankind of Yuriqen had their different D'ahranals, one of which being the Tyesteron, and within that the Ki'Tyestereon, the elite guardians of their borders, unparalleled with bow and skilled with sword. She really liked that concept, which harkens back to the archetype of general D&D elves, and wanted to play her character as a younger wood elf of the Tyesteron D'ahranal, aspiring to become a Ki'Tyesteron. As opposed to say individual glory and honor and vassalage and homage etc to a single noble of Turamzzyrian knighthood (something those sylvans would have no idea about given the time of Yuriqen's sealing), the Ki'Tyesteron's lives are dedicated to protecting the society/culture itself by somberly perfecting the one art the sylvankind have always, always been loathe to practice- war. Albeit for absolutely defensive purposes, of course, as the sylvankind learned their lesson about interfering with the outside world during the Undead War.

The major issues we encountered though were because of time and geography and the lore itself. Yuriqen closed ~5000 YA, the only sylvans to have left were then considered to be of the Lassaran D'ahranal. Yuriqen is also half a continent away, nestled approximately somewhere east of Talador and northeast of Riverwood in a great basin of the northwestern Dragonspine so say the maps. So her choices were slim- either be over five thousand years old to have actually seen Yuriqen, or be Lassaran. Not liking those choices, we hacked out something along the lines of more recently escaping the Silver Veil via accident; it was shaky, but it especially worked because she was a new player at the time, so could with much more invested in it play up the lack of insight into and knowledge of outside cultures and societies.

That was a major challenge in backstory and development, and we figured something out- but it also came with another caveat in that the character's goal would never be realized, because the character was far, far removed from Yuriqen and never going to make it back (unless of course we wrote something up, as while an initial backstory escape is okay, a return and claiming the accolade and its duties and then another escape! falls into the Amazing Donkey-Man trope of questionable legitimacy). There's also the fact that there are no sylvankind power bases accessible to players with the exception of a festival that pops up every now and then. So in effect, the character was forever an exile and removed from her people- and that's a consequence of character race choice, with the added lack of a guru actively running storylines centered on that race to provide the opportunity. Over time though, that shtick became a pretty treasured aspect of the character.

That's definitely not to say 'well if you want to achieve this goal, then you have to roll up this specific race/profession or else neener neeener nothing for you' though. The disparity between lore for cultures at times is a shameski. ..and other than 'someone write moar loar, racial guru avengers assemble!!' I don't have any constructive ideas to share on that. BUT WHAT I DO HAVE TO SHARE..!!

---

So while it's not total solution, I posit that sandbox specific is a good and realistic start.

A positive example right now of that is the Landing. Wehnimer's Landing has its mayoral election starting up, which opens a wide berth of options for the Landing's guru in regards to its government and society. While of course some NPCs have to retain designated roles (can't replace Judge Renpaw with Judge Rekarth, for instance, though that would be lolololo), therein exists much more fertile soil to plant Adventure Seeds (TM).

Even then, over the years, Kenstrom's NPCs have awarded people different accolades and duties- there are Defenders of Wehnimer's Landing, when Walkar was alive/in office he appointed a few people as his official advisors. Back when a younger and still dashingly handsome Bristenn (meow) was knighted, the powers-that-be of Solhaven and Vornavis awarded and bestowed other accolades on people- the whole list being two knight-errants, one knight of the empire, one knight-banneret and commissioned captain of the Vornavian Reserve, six Hospitallers of the Order of Venquinor, six Protectors of Solhaven, four Honored Allies, one Misun Sethlor made Ward of House Venquinor, and a certain Svala girl made a Magister of the Hall to keep her reckless use of uncharted flow magic under surveillance, heh. The list was huge and varied and not just limited to knighthood, and I always assumed was the groundwork for a more active participation of PCs in and helping to run the suspension-of-disbelief community.

So with a little tweaking, there's nothing that says sandboxes need the conclusions of epic storylines just for passing out titles- it could be an ongoing thing as each town's guru sets their own playstyle. Wehnimer's Landing and Icemule have their militia and merchants and town council and a host of different, varied other aspects of democratic government in a frontier and more anachronistic setting, River's Rest has its whole uh. Gangs of New York thing going on. Solhaven has the Mercantyler's Guild and with its relationship to the Turamzzyrian Empire, a wide selection of different aspects- different churches, guilds, orders, such and such. Zul Logoth and Kharam-Dzu have various dwarven clans participating and competing/cooperating in all aspects of society, etc etc etc, vaaaaast array of creative options available.

Just as well though, those would have to come with something of responsibility- not nearly as stringent as what's required for the new Mayor of the Landing, but close enough, because they should come with some weight in regards to staying in-character and working with the role accepted- can't have the Mayor of the Landing mooning people and scrawling 'poppycock' across the Moot Hall facade, and if you do, he should be impeached and removed from office, that git. And of course fostering community and roleplaying and such.

I do understand though that all of that while fine and dandy and all isn't a proper solution to gaps in culture lore and lack of upward mobility within races and cultures, but I did wanna toss the idea out there.

-james, bristenn's player

---

You think to yourself, "FFF-"

A giant white bunny hurls a powerful lightning bolt at you!

You evade the bolt by a hair!

Isn't it funny how we always finally realize what we were trying to say AFTER we hit 'post'?

Anyway... I think part of what I was thinking about in regards to societal vs. sandbox...

A lot of the societal stuff, like the Imperial titles, create a defined role for you. A lot of the existing sandbox-level stuff doesn't. If there is to be a focus on the sandbox, even those roles need some more development to give you a path going forward once the achievement has been made.

Signed,
Raelee and her Strings

>Speaking to Zyllah, Alyias says, "See? Raelee knows all."

I guess I am a little bit of "that player" because I worry that without sufficient oversight, a Summer of Lore would produce eighteen different documents about what this race or culture is or isn't. At that point, who decides relevance and accuracy -- and won't that tick off the people who have already created their own teacup world-within-a-world? I admit it would bug me a bit to find out after all these years that my character has antlers or eats children as a bedtime snack or something. The people who are equally convinced these things are true of Faendryl would probably consider me really boring for my insistence on an un-antlered head and chilled grapes instead of infant eyeballs. The garden has grown wild for so long that it could be hard to sort out the worthwhile ideas from the weeds. I think sooner or later, that's going to have to happen, and I hope it won't be too painful when it does.

It's necessary to establish some kind of common lore if we want consensus-based roleplay instead of some backward cargo-cult behavior in which people just erect sub-cultures willy-nilly in hopes the GMs who fly by might stop to honor their RP constructs with officialdom. That would suck. It would suck more if I were suddenly made into one of the islanders building a mock-up of a Flying Fortress out of rattan, banana leaves and spit. As I said in my earlier post, it's definitely a tougher job the farther you move away from familiar, human time-scales and social organization. Some kind of consensus would also help prevent that foot-in-mouth syndrome Raelee's player mentioned (and which I can't imagine she's ever suffered as she's phenomenal and effortless in her RP) if there are some common points of reference.

A positive example right now of that is the Landing. Wehnimer's Landing has its mayoral election starting up, which opens a wide berth of options for the Landing's guru in regards to its government and society. While of course some NPCs have to retain designated roles (can't replace Judge Renpaw with Judge Rekarth, for instance, though that would be lolololo), therein exists much more fertile soil to plant Adventure Seeds (TM). (Bristenn's player)

Believe me, I love the Landing's mayoral race, and I love even more that it's open to characters of every race, culture and belief system in the game. There are plenty of great IC reasons my character's running, and OOC, I think it's a wonderful chance to talk about Landing improvements in an in-character way. No matter who gets to sit in the big chair, if the Town Council works with the new mayor to get a few shops refurbished or work on a couple of quality-of-life issues, everyone wins. Lore is, to me, one of those quality-of-life issues. Let's put in an embassy or a few new items in the museum or an expanded library.


Incidentally, I'm mad at all of you for ignoring my "littoral" pun.


--- Lauren, Lylia's player

I didn't catch the pun for some strange reason, but I vaguely recall embassies being bastions of evil and domination. /trollololololo

Those are legitimate concerns for a silly Summer of Lore thing, though- I meant it more along the lines of for the Wordsmiths. It'd all have to of course go through QC and proofreading and fact checking and all the proper channels still.

But I deffo understand the sentiment behind avoiding becoming a cargo cult situation- I personally got pretty lucky with the History of the Order of Voln and Worship in the Empire docs, for instance, but probably not other people did. Especially with the Worship doc's addressing of the afterlife issue, because prior to that it was just the vague 'when you die for realsies, your soul goes TO THE BEYOND.' Most real religions have some belief in the afterlife, and normally that afterlife is the hallmark of their religious ethos- be it reincarnation, a heaven, a spaceship, whathaveyou. So from the whole IC perspective, the Church of Koar would have to tell the masses something in order to pacify them (whether it's true or a total lie or someone communed long ago and got a vague answer and just ran with it, etc) when it came to that hard question, otherwise there's nothing but the unknown waiting for them, and there's nothing more frightening to the human mind than the unknown.

It's like what Xorus mentioned though- these are primarily IC documents, so they're up for some interpretation- a forest gnome like Dendum (I miss that guy) would probably scoff at the human Koargard silliness and remark how his people are given back to the earth from whence they came and the lady of the green turns the worthier gnomes into hardier trees or such. If you're really lucky and one of her favorites, you become a doe and get to hang out with animal spirits, who are cooler and have more parties than those plant spirits.

Now I do think the general Timeline of Elanthia doc does have at least that common consensus-based lore, though it basically just has the key frames, not all the inbetweens. ..so out of curiosity, what do you'se guys think could use more love specifically? Also, we may or may not have derailed from the original topic, which was accolade/storyline love for dudes inhuman.

-james, bristenn's player

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You think to yourself, "FFF-"

A giant white bunny hurls a powerful lightning bolt at you!

You evade the bolt by a hair!

<< I don't think every race needs knights and many of them actually have the skeleton of some kind of hierarchy already, it'd just be really fun to actually implement it into the game itself instead of keeping it solely as lore. >>

Strong agree from me, for sure. I don't want to see Jovery/Malwind knighting an elf any more than the elves want to see the Argent Mirror blinging up the House Mires crest. That is definitely not the solution. And Xorus's player makes a solid argument that the concept doesn't make a whole lot of sense in every culture. (Like the halflings are really going to knight each other. Can you imagine that ceremony? They'd forget what they were doing halfway through, get into the mead, and throw a dance party.)

The issue, then, becomes one of progression, and determining what the bar(s) for each race would be and what path(s) one could reasonably plot to reach them. And you've really hit the nail on the head there: the existing lore would have to be implemented, and all those troublesome blank spots filled in.

As Bristenn's player mentioned, they don't necessarily need to be military honors. (See what I said about the halflings.)

Speaking of Bristenn's posts: I both agree and disagree with the sandbox solution, and want to echo something Raelee's player brought up...


<< A lot of the societal stuff, like the Imperial titles, create a defined role for you. A lot of the existing sandbox-level stuff doesn't. If there is to be a focus on the sandbox, even those roles need some more development to give you a path going forward once the achievement has been made. >>

Contrast Knight-Errant with the Defender of Wehnimer's Landing title that a few people received following the Taladorian War:

1) Aiska was named Knight-Errant for riding the chimera and saving some refugees during the attack on Mestanir. Knight-Errant means that she has sworn an oath of fealty to Baron Malwind, and that in turn means she enjoys some of the benefits of nobility and elevated social status within Solhaven and the larger Empire. That status is contingent on her obeying Malwind's orders, protecting his interests, and behaving in a manner that reflects positively on him, and is something that can absolutely be taken away should she fail to do those things. Her next step on that path is Knight of the Empire, and an example of someone who has achieved that status is Cryheart.

2) Defender of Wehnimer's Landing is conferred upon those who fought bravely to protect their town. It's an honor, for sure, and without question deserved by everyone who received it. But what does it mean beyond that? What is its function? Where does one go from there?

My intent is not to disparage a cool title, not at all, and I apologize if it comes across that way. The purpose of that comparison is simply to add emphasis to Raelee's point that while a sandbox-level honorific is a fun thing to have, it's not always an adequate substitute for societal progression.

But, Bristenn, I do agree with the fundamental point of your argument: it's a start.

(And I mean, I get it. I can pretty much hear Kenstrom rolling his eyes from here. Sometimes you just want to throw someone an attaboy without all the strings attached and I get it, I do. Not everything has to be packaged up with a metric ton of gravitas and stamped every which way with lore this and story that. Sometimes a thumbs-up is just a thumbs-up, and there's nothing wrong with that.)

Anyway, I'll close this post out with some optimism regarding the Landing's mayoral race, and express hope that it encourages gears to turn in other communities. That is a cool sandbox-level thing.

---

Khristal asks, "Who uses scimitars anyway?"

Svardin says, "Folks dat should use axes."

You nod sagely.

>>To phrase another way, scanning CE GM's, what parameters or boundaries can be provided along these lines wherein we might be able to begin some documentation or at least RP some vague understanding of this or that organization - which could lead to more official-ness?

I'm still catching up on these posts, but I'll comment quick on this. As of early Feb, I've begun work on a new document tentively titled "The Orders of the Turamzzyrian Empire". This is my first attempt to document some known, and currently unknown Orders and Organizations within the Human Empire. This will include organizations based on four categories: magical, martial, religious, and unlawful. This kind of stemmed from the creation of the new Ronan group (not so new, history wise). It won't be everything, and I may expand even more on it in the future, but so far it's a pretty long list. Most of them will be limited to within the Empire though, but may be an avenue to provide some new options for upward mobility, especially in some of the religious and unlawful organizations, ooooh boy!

There's also the document we're seeking to release soon regarding Human Titles, orginally drafted by GM Auchand, which dives more into official ranks/titles within the Hall of Mages, Church of Koar, and Imperial Knights.

I know none of these documents fill the gap per se, but a step forward I hope nonetheless.



-GM Kenstrom-
Waylayer of Wehnimer's Landing
Human Guru
Giantmen Guru

>>(And I mean, I get it. I can pretty much hear Kenstrom rolling his eyes from here. Sometimes you just want to throw someone an attaboy without all the strings attached and I get it, I do. Not everything has to be packaged up with a metric ton of gravitas and stamped every which way with lore this and story that. Sometimes a thumbs-up is just a thumbs-up, and there's nothing wrong with that.)

Haha! Naaah, I'm not rolling my eyes. I love rewarding players, but I'm very OCD when I do it. Like...I run it through my head a thousand times, glean documentation to make sure I don't conflict with existing lore, I usually always pick Scribes' brain too, he's like a really cool textual J.A.R.V.I.S! But I like upward mobility, I love it in fact, and I fully support it across all regions and races, but obviously that's not my call, and not always an easy thing to implement. As for Landing Defenders, there isn't really an established upward mobility there, and I guess at the time I didn't see a need for it. Landing seems like a rough, and loose enough place that such structure likely wouldn't exist, like say, in contrast to Knights in the Empire. I've been toying with the idea of a Landing Militia structure for the last two years, but nothing just yet...

-GM Kenstrom-
Waylayer of Wehnimer's Landing
Human Guru
Giantmen Guru

>>But a loosely defined hierarchy is better than noneski. What I do like about the Crimson Legion is that so long as you're a Ta'Vaalor citizen and a full blooded Vaalorian elf, you can join, and it's supported by mechanics. Not to totally rip off the Crimson Legion, but a Landing militia could operate on basically the same citizenship parameters and inexclusive of race. Similar sort of mechanics could be used for organizations like a merchant's guild, fraternal order of lumberjacks (upon entry, you would be granted a flannel shirt and wearable beard from the old Landing boutique), etc etc. It's something that could actually be replicamated in different towns, too.

And that was essentially the original idea, basing it off of the Ta'Vaalor Legionnaires, etc. Like I said, there's nothing set in stone, or really beyond my own mental concept, but given the aftermath of Shadows, a player driven militia definitely seems ripe to occur, but keep in mind, there's many local MHO's that run similiar operations. So that's the risk in things like this too. One, I don't want to take away from Ta'Vaalor and what they got going on, and two, I don't want to water down the important role military type MHO's play in Landing defense, because I'd much rather see organizations like the Gryphons, Drakes, Irregulars, etc operate as kind of a militia in many ways themselves, then come in and create a GM organization that takes away from that.

It's not to say it'll never happen, an official landing militia with players, but I think if it is ever done, it needs to be in such a good, balanced fashion that it doesn't take away from other towns and groups. I'm sure I can find a way to do that, one day...if I just weren't so damn busy plotting new ways to Drain Deeds (tm) from you all...

-GM Kenstrom-
Waylayer of Wehnimer's Landing
Human Guru
Giantmen Guru

>>Between your analogy about building on sand and mine of sea floors, I hope everyone realizes we aren't speaking littorally. (Hah! Oh, I slay me.)


I sense someone needs to draw a line in the sand and say 'no more puns for you'.

>>a representative to speak for their respective gang of armed mercenary goons (hehe) --james

Dibs on that postname title! You see Seomanthe Bartley the Goon.... As long it comes with a flat cap, ribbed tank top, and stick-with-a-nail-in-it... Who wants to roll up my foul mouthed sidekick?

/seo/

I'm not sure this "upward mobility" is a roleplaying incentive as much as it is a means of progressing a story, perhaps closing one chapter and opening a new one. I think players benefit when GMs help a story to move forward in a meaningful way.

<<I think there can be any number of middle roads you can take with a lot of races. I find Dhe'nar and Faendryl to be the only real exceptions to these because of the lore we have for them. But for the most part your ideas sound wonderful.>>

I was thinking more along the lines of what Greganth said about the half dozen or so structurally peripheral races. I think this is all at least somewhat of an unfortunate consequence of how fast the original history had to be thrown together. Way too much racial homogeneity, with too much of the map dominated by a few race-centric cultures, when it would have been a lot healthier in the long run to have a bunch of very different countries with wide cultural variances. The timeline is similarly dominated, and a lot of things are inconveniently far away. The situation is much better now than it used to be, but the initial skew is pretty deep.

I keep forgetting that the Sylvans have a history document. It is interesting to contrast with the Dhe'nar beliefs about that time period. I've always interpreted the Dark Elven histories with a degree of irony, Starsnuffer was pretty staunch on the idea of not taking lore very literally. Very low fertility or impotence, for example, masked with a ridiculous myth about the impossibility of cross-breeding. In a similar way it would be self-refuting for the Faendryl to really be so murderous with each other.

- Xorus' player

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>look parchment
Written across the parchment is the phrase:

You will one day sit, and die, upon a throne....of chocolate.

>I'm not sure this "upward mobility" is a roleplaying incentive as much as it is a means of progressing a story, perhaps closing one chapter and opening a new one. I think players benefit when GMs help a story to move forward in a meaningful way.

I just felt that bore repeating. I think it's a really, really good point you make there.

Despite what crazy storylines may happen... there's always a certain amount of "sameness" after its over. This does feel like events are actually moving characters' lives forward rather than just disrupting them.

Signed,
Raelee and her Strings

>Speaking to Zyllah, Alyias says, "See? Raelee knows all."