>Prompted by Kenstrom's working development of different groups and what have you, would players be as excited to gain honors that aren't our traditional honors? I.e., granted a special status in the Church of Koar or an honored place amongst the Red Hats of Fairport?

I can't speak for everyone, but I believe most people would be absolutely delighted to receive such recognition. It isn't so much about the rank as about creating milestones for characters. Honors of any sort are wonderful, but it's the official acknowledgement of some change the character has undergone that's fulfilling. Silvean's and Raelee's players both said it well -- it's the sense of movement and progress that matters. Many races wouldn't have a use for titles and traditional honors anyway, but any player who participated heavily in a story-line would certainly appreciate recognition even if they cared nothing for rank.

>When it was over, while I dabbled with the idea of rewards for those involved, be it status or title, I ultimately came to the conclusion not to go forward on that ground, and I think it's well applicable to what has been said in this discussion, sometimes the time and place just doesn't make room for it.

>The rest of Scribes' post here.

>Prompted by Kenstrom's working development of different groups and what have you, would players be as excited to gain honors that aren't our traditional honors? I.e., granted a special status in the Church of Koar or an honored place amongst the Red Hats of Fairport?

Honors and recognition are great. However, I'm also a big, big proponent of "stuff must make sense!"

If there's some non-traditional honor that makes sense within the context of the character and storyline, do it. However, I recognize that there's a slippery slope of creation piles upon piles of 'non-traditional' honors just for the sake of handing something out.


Signed,
Raelee and her Strings

>Speaking to Zyllah, Alyias says, "See? Raelee knows all."

I really hope people do not get into the mindset that they need a GM to recognize their achievements during a story. I fear if people do get into that mindset they would rp to the title goal and the GMs and not as much to the other players. I personally feel that the recognition pup received from his fellow PCs means infinitely more then the title he received.

Well said driver of Pup. This outweighs any other consideration in the game for me, as far as titles and recognition go. I'd much rather see someone recognized by their peers, it means so much more coming from the community, at least to me.

General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq

Empires exist through conquest, they live on by exercising total control of the conquered.

Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato

>Its a difficult thought to me. Ideally to me the players would form and shape and reinforce milestones, and the GMs would help guide and implement. [Rowmi's player]

I think that bottom-up instead of top-down process does happen quite often. In fact, I'd even say it's the most common way in which personal story-lines (as opposed to the big game-wide epics like CiS) evolve. Mohrgan and Falvicar got recognized as Ronanites because that's who those characters were long before anyone outside their inner circle knew what they were doing. Rozy has an absolutely fascinating story, and I'm not sure she's been recognized for it; doesn't stop her from playing it magnificently.

At the same time, having a GM lend -- I don't want to say "legitimacy" because I believe plenty of wholly player-created roleplay is legitimate, so I'll say "authority" -- is still a huge thing. It doesn't have to be titles or accolades. It doesn't even have to be something anyone else recognizes. Rowmi's changed dramatically after his brush with Stone, I'd imagine, and you probably see that change in far more ways than you generally express. You know it's there, though, and those experiences with Stone have probably changed your character's trajectory in ways that getting together with other players to collaborate on a story might not.

I hope we don't confuse upward mobility with meaningful change. Not all characters are social strivers, and not all societies embrace hierarchies, but we all want to see some progress. My character steers by the same three points on her moral compass regardless of whether any of them are meaningful to anyone else or nets her any medals -- but having that compass needle nudged now and again makes progress happen.

>Honors and recognition are great. However, I'm also a big, big proponent of "stuff must make sense!" [Raelee's player]

Me too! That's why I hope we don't give everyone fancy titles or plaques or drinks named after them. Those things should be quite rare, and they shouldn't pile up like a stack of grammar school trophies.

>On this topic, how would an evil character be recognized officialy? Is being called a Diabolist (awesome by the way) or Bane give the same amount of recognition?

I think the short answer is, "It varies." I'm sure it depends on the flavor and motivation for the evil.

Thinking back to the GSS - I don't think any official titles were handed out to members of the DA, but there were many circumstances where it would have been more than appropriate. A lot of the DA members commanded great respect both IC and OOC. In that case, most of the evil was very Arkati/Lornon-based... so I'm sure something similar to what was done for Mohrgan and Falvicar would have fit.

For other sorts... some sort of 'Bane' or 'Outlaw' might work - or even go so far as literally branding them as a criminal, rather than handing out a title.

You see Rekarth the Black Diaobolist.
He has a giant brand that say's "I'm a terrible, evil person" in the center of his forehead.

(A little more finesse than that might be called for, though...)

Signed,
Raelee and her Strings

>Speaking to Zyllah, Alyias says, "See? Raelee knows all."

A trend I've noticed with antagonist PCs is that while they don't get that many big ole rewards at the end of a storyline, they are on the receiving end of more intimate/closed-to-the-public events. My default speculation of the rationale behind that is because, of course, as the 'antagonists' they can't very well be plotting BadStuff (TM) in the middle of TSC, it's kind of counter-intuitive to the effectiveness of the BadStuff (TM). So that aside, they also still retain with very few exceptions full and unhindered access to the rest of the storyline's events, regardless of how appropriate it is for their character to be present. That's an entirely different frank conversation, though, so digressing..

As stated, their reward tends to be more along the lines of the experience/fun of playing the counter role of antagonist and the IC infamy earned during and retained afterward, as opposed to society (generally a lawful neutral/good institution) bestowing them any sort of honors. Summed up of course with 'it's the journey, not the goal.' They had the moxie to be the robbers when most people tend to just fall in line with the cops, so if done correctly they can directly help bring more dimension/vitality to a story and even move it forward, making it even more memorable for all the players involved.

On the converse, Kenstrom has recently been bestowing dishonors instead- see the Banes of Wehnimer's Landing, yon Brigands of Talador, the dastardly Black Diabolist, and Defender of Wehnimer's Landing (badumtsh), which while they may or may not come into play later, do serve as personal milestones (positive, negative or meh) in a character's curriculum vitae.

If you really read between the lines of it, they're also rather defined roles as well in the same vein as 'knight' and 'magister.' Someone declared a Bane of Wehnimer's Landing for instance becomes an infamous, hated outlaw- town officials sneer and have them beaten out of the borders, babes shriek and children think it's funny to whip rocks at them because Landing kids are brats, but in this case they have learned well, grasshoppers. At least, that's what could happen- being declared AN OUTLAAAAAWWWW might be a big red flag/black mark against a character for general society, but to that character and his homies, it could very well be a badge of honor. For the most part, these defined roles are up to the players themselves to create, much the same as 'knight' and 'magister.'

As a great example of how that differs, compare any two knights- if you're familiar with history, as an example compare the much reviled and despised Cemb to the much reviled and despised (for different reasons) Bristenn. Cemb was a traitorous madman who fought his brothers- Bristenn is an ardent, loyal vassal even to the bitter end. So really, that role is up for each individual person to decide. If we're getting into RPtheory here, you don't even really need a special title- your character, by way of your continued RP, has already created a defined role for itself.

It's however really awesome when GMs recognize it and does positively reinforce the roleplay behind the acquisition and follow-up of that title.

-james, bristenn's player

---

You think to yourself, "FFF-"

A giant white bunny hurls a powerful lightning bolt at you!

You evade the bolt by a hair!

This thread is going so much better than I ever hoped. Thanks to everyone who's joined the conversation - it's really terrific.


<< It is fortunate that in the world we play in HE can aspire to become a Baron, or even the Head Magistrate of The Hall of Mages, even though, as a player, that requires me to suspend my disbelief, since, well, those things are not going to ever happen... and you know what else? I knew that going in. (Greganth) >>

I was going to say that this isn't about "expectations," but there is in fact a small swath of the population who absolutely does expect to achieve these things, and grows resentful when they do not.

Let me assure you (the collective you, not just Greganth) that the players who expect accolades are not the ones we're concerned with, in this topic. We're talking strictly in terms of story devices and character development, here, and how GMs and players can collaborate and build those delightful societal/cultural architectures that elves and Imperials currently enjoy.

Silvean and I seem to be sharing the same mindset, here, so boosting his signal and appending my usual anecdotal garbage:


<< I'm not sure this "upward mobility" is a roleplaying incentive as much as it is a means of progressing a story, perhaps closing one chapter and opening a new one. I think players benefit when GMs help a story to move forward in a meaningful way. (Silvean) >>

<< For me, I'm interested in anything that helps GMs and PCs tell a story, including stories that are focused on one character. The bestowal of titles or official positions falls into this larger category of desirable development. It could also include an arrest warrant or an official censure. (Silvean) >>

This, this absolutely, this this this 1000%.

I approach RP as if I were writing my character into someone else's larger narrative. Right now, Kenstrom's writing the larger narrative - one about the troubling aftermath of a sprawling world war, and the damaged relationship between frontier towns and a wounded Empire. Aiska has the good sense to stay away from whatever the Inquisitors are doing, she can't vote for Mayor, and the Thadston affair is between Landing and Jovery, so what's her role in the story? Where is she, if not enjoying the main dish?

Simple: she's in Vornavis, because now taking care of Vornavis is her responsibility. Stepping back and looking at the bigger picture, it's easy to see a million little pockets of RP to build around taking care of Vornavis: heading to Zul and arranging deals with Clunk and the dwarven smiths, working with prominent figures like Greganth and Puptilian in smoothing out trade between Landing and Solhaven, and even framing ideas around things like escort tasks and potentially paid events. She's feasting off the side dishes - the smaller problems that come along with war recovery and issues brought up by GMNPCs at court, like trade routes reopening. (I'm not speaking hypothetically and "off-camera," I mean when I log in and feel like RPing, this is what I go do.)

For those of us who are story-oriented, it's not hard to find a thread to chase in the GM's larger narrative, even if it isn't the "main" thread. That is why having that broad societal framework for every race is so important to me, because I would be entirely unable to function without it. I need to see the playing field or I have no idea where to move my pieces.

Which ties in neatly with two very valid concerns:


<< I really hope people do not get into the mindset that they need a GM to recognize their achievements during a story. I fear if people do get into that mindset they would rp to the title goal and the GMs and not as much to the other players. (Puptilian) >>

<< But we should not rely on GMs to grow or create our stories, or get to the point where titles or promotions should be a focus, in my opinion. (Rowmi) >>

There are always going to be people who chase spotlight and GM validation, and they will always be mad because someone else got something. I would be lying out of my ass if I said my own current troubles with those individuals didn't play a part in my thinking about this very topic and posting this very thread. They are absolutely out there and there's no placating them, because they will always believe they deserve more than the next guy for whatever nebulous, ill-defined reason.

In addition to that, Metadi's player told me that a years ago, when adoubement was (relatively) more common, they had a minor annoyance in that people would often join the Gryphons expecting a fast track to knighthood. Like hey, boom, I'm here, I'm in this well-established chivalrous order, that means a big ol' Sir and spurs, right? Well, no, not necessarily. And sometimes it'd result in bad blood and hurt feelings, because there's simply more to it and they couldn't make those players get it.

I feel like the people in this conversation get it. I look at this thread and see a few people who have received fancy titles from GMs, and others who haven't, and we all seem to be in agreement that trotting our empty bowls up to the GMs with sad little orphan doe-eyes isn't the way to develop a character. It was awesome when Xayle unexpectedly snatched Aiska up for an afternoon of shadowmangling with Sevynne (and I've been a Xayle fangirl ever since), but it pales in comparison to the "Horcruxophim" ritual written up by Lylia, Crux, and Aeavenne that Kenstrom unexpectedly crashed, and neither of those will ever hold a candle to the GMless night when Bristenn promoted Aiska to the head of his lance. Those are three entirely different flavors, but they all taste like joy.

A great roleplayer is someone who uses the tools that established lore provides to make their character live and breathe. What I want to see is more tools. Unfortunately for us, we can't do much about the other kind of tools, and how they behave.

God I have so much more I want to write but it's already been thirty-five minutes and look hey those Imperial orders sound great and Scribes your post is beautiful and this post is big, so big, you can see it from space and it's time to stop.

---

Khristal asks, "Who uses scimitars anyway?"

Svardin says, "Folks dat should use axes."

You nod sagely.

I am super late to this party but I just have to echo what has been said a few times, and what I said to Aiska's player when she first brought up this topic: GM driven accolades are great, but the ones that I have treasured the most are still the ones given by other characters. Those are the ones that have shaped and driven my character more than anything else.

Stormyrain earned the title Loremistress from Igrak--and that is the title that she is the proudest of. Receiving a Defender title was a HUGE honor to her, and she is very proud to wear it, but it still does not touch the sense of accomplishment and pride she experienced when Igrak started calling her Loremistress.
Same with being a Blood Mage. It's not official, it's not sanctioned, but it's near and dear to her heart and her character.

I love the idea of player driven GM supported situations, if you will, more than I do the idea that pre-scripted ladders of success be put out by GMs for players to strive for.

~Nichoel, the Muse.

Nature of rebellion, means to an end. Sometimes men are tempted by money and power and they forget what end they're serving. ~Brendan Roarke, SOA Irish King

AIM: LdyStrmyRn

Also, random idea..

Revamp the "golden kobold award" folder in the RP thread.. or add a new folder for shout outs.. and people nominated in there get added to a list that a specific Customer Experience GM has.. and whenever they're working they peek in on people from that list, from time to time... and every say.. six months to a year.. select a few people to give a title to with regards to whatever it is they were nominated for or some aspect of their RP/personality.

Or circumvent the system and create CHE titles that seemingly imply upward mobility!