FURROWFOOT

That's 3.0247, not 3.0. #sigfigged

Correct, but it was provided in the same format as all previous results I've supplied in such comparisons.

GameMaster Estild

<Correct, but it was provided in the same format as all previous results I've supplied in such comparisons.

So the average is 4 casts not 3. So it is 3s vs 0s.

http://i.imgur.com/lsWPzG9.gif

>> Also is that 3.02 casts of Hurl Boulder? Or 1 cast of Tremor and then 3.02 casts of Hurl Boulder? If its the last one that raises the amount of time by 3s to 6s on average.

Not really since you can STOMP with no RT penalty a number of times after each cast/EVOKE of Tremors.

-- Robert

<Not really since you can STOMP with no RT penalty a number of times after each cast/EVOKE of Tremors.

Interesting, I've yet you use that version since it is weaker than the main spell. I'll give it a shot.

http://i.imgur.com/lsWPzG9.gif

>Interesting, I've yet you use that version since it is weaker than the main spell. I'll give it a shot.

I find the self cast version of 909 to be very useful in 1v1 or 1v2+ situations where 909 works on the creatures.

If it's 1v1:
TAP (if holding a runestaff) or STOMP (stomps your foot) with an immediate follow up with 917 (squishy target) or 510 (well armored target) and then I go from there.

If it's 1v2+:
TAP (if holding a runestaff) or STOMP (stomps your foot) with an immediate follow up with 410. Now all (or almost all) targets should be down from 909 and in some kind of RT from 410. I'll open up from there with Hurl Boulder cast of 518 and see what needs to be done after that.

On creatures that are immune or resistant to 909 - what's the point? Hopefully 410 or 912 will work - if they don't....then you're left with hoping you can catch them with a cast of 512 to root.

Either way, I'm always using some sort of CC when facing a target with my wizard. I can't say the same about other pures (highest other pure I have is a level 18 empath followed by a level 10 sorcerer). If I can't CC a target in an effective manner, then I won't bother with bolting. It's just not an ideal situation to stand there slinging bolts every 1 second (if 515 is in use) or 3 seconds.

-Drumpel

>> Indeed. I ran the test with and without 909 and the difference was significant. If you can use it, you most certainly should.

I use this with my warmage... I never use it with Faulkil (pure wizard). I'll give it a try!

I remember trying self cast 909 when the spell first updated and things kept standing right back up which I found annoying and determined not to use the spell any further but maybe I'll notice and appreciate the EPB difference if I try it again.

It would be a more exciting (fun) effect if there was some sort of visible indicator that it was working... for example, what if there was a short message whenever the creature would have avoided the attack but due to the 909 effect it didn't? The indicator would give some sense that the spell was doing something AND a sense of how frequently.

Just some idle thoughts on making the spell more fun. Totally silent spells, while maybe mechanically effective, still leave something to be desired. Even passive defense spells still show up in the numbers.

-- Robert

>there is that fraction of a second where a creature could possibly stand up before you get your cast off. Much like how wizards have that small chance of getting caught in offensive when stance dancing when casting bolt. It's rare I have this happen to me, but every now and then a creature will be back on its feet.

Even with a macro, it happens very often. The creature seems speedy and instant too. :\

>I can't comment on creatures higher level

It's fairly unreliable, and there are a lot of creatures that can't knock down as you move to capped hunting also.

"What if there were a second creature in the room to pull up any creature hit by the tremor? That could increase the number of casts." -- Veythorne

Phrased the way I see things with my Mage:
"What if there were a second target in the room to be affected by the same activation of the Tremor? That could increase the number of targets affected by my splashy spells."

.

Estild was tasked with worrying about single targets at a time; this has been LadyFleurs' posited situation for months.

Multiple creatures in the room, means a different attack may be more optimal.

Maybe I'm missing something or doing something wrong, but 909 stomp is doing nothing against any of these creatures Estild used in his data set. War griffins, rift crawlers, cerebralites... strike zero. So it doesn't address EBP for any of them. Meanwhile, 240+warding spell takes care of the entire problem in one boost.

>> Maybe I'm missing something or doing something wrong, but 909 stomp is doing nothing against any of these creatures Estild used in his data set. War griffins, rift crawlers, cerebralites... strike zero.

I'm not entirely thrilled with the machanic either - I like the stomp ability as a warmage (I'm looking for DS reduction here primarily due to the knockdown) but as an EPB reducer it's feels 'bothersome' to have to use this as a setup for each creature, in addition to other disablers that will be needed, just to use bolts more effectively. STOMP is not an effective replacement for the other disabler spells that I use (Call Wind, Immolation) so it's yet another pre-action I need to take to get to the meat of the combat.

I've generally been hunting without it (as a pure) but if we agree that EPB is problematic for bolts I'd rather see a different / cleaner implementation to address this than having to go through numerous gyrations at the beginning of each battle. What about tying some of the bolt EPB benefit into our other disabler spells (Call Wind and Immolation)? Or revisiting bolt EPB modifiers for prone targets? Or failing that, considering the bolt EPB improvement spell I posted a few weeks back?

-- Robert

LADYFLEUR

It's fairly unreliable, and there are a lot of creatures that can't knock down as you move to capped hunting also.

Even against creatures that are 10 levels above the caster, manually activated 909 is pretty much guaranteed to work. The issue is against creatures that are either directly (liches) or indirectly (flying, can't be knock down, or magic immune) immune to the spell.

In the Scatter, liches, destroyers, crawlers, and cerebralites are immune, which admittedly, is most of the creatures.
In Old Ta'Faendryl, only war griffins and constructs are immune. All the Ithzir are susceptible.
In Nelemar, only spectral triton defenders are immune. All other tritons, sirens, and elementals are susceptible.
In the Sanctum of Scales, only the sidewinders are immune.
All elementals in the Elemental Confluence are immune.
All undead in the Settlement of Reim are susceptible.
All bandits are susceptible.
All Grimswarm are susceptible.

LADYFLEUR

The Wiki says the EBP is only reduced if they knock down or if they're already prone and would otherwise have failed the knock down roll. Does this affect creatures that would never knock down (flying, already lying on their bellies)? Specifically asking about war griffins and rift crawlers

It can affect creatures that are already prone, but will not affect creatures that resist or are otherwise immune to the spell (due to flying or not able to be knocked down (rift crawlers)).

GameMaster Estild

The wiki has the help file for the wizard reproduced on it.

It is possible to call a WIZ script from a macro. Daisy chaining them together I haven't tried, but I'm going to guess no. Lich, yes. Easily.

Doug

>>So only Ithzir champions are actually capped/post-cap and not immune?

No.

Doug

>>It is another button to press because requiring an extra action prevents one from stance dancing with the bolt macro. Or the claim that wizards are "never" in offensive is incorrect (which it is anyway).


I'm guessing what I typed was either not understood or intentionally ignored. I shouldn't be surprised. It can be macro'd into another action, so no, it's not another button to press, if you set up the macro ahead of time, which is... you know, what macros require? You know, create a macro to stomp/tap/pound/flickboogers/whatever and follow it up with whatever your spell of choise is.

>>That's not what Estild's summary above about OTF says

Your quote included the Scatter. Since you purposefully chose to emphasize words to make your point, but those words applied to the Scatter - it was not your wish to limit the discussion to OTF.

Doug

LADYFLEUR

So only Ithzir champions are actually capped/post-cap and not immune?

No, not even after you narrow down your criteria to creatures that level 100 or higher. More so, we don't use that criteria, as capped characters do plenty of hunting in ALL of those listed areas. A level 100 character, whether newly leveled or 15m experience, can hunt and advance in any of those areas. We don't balance around allowing specific professions the ability to solo in the Scatter.

LADYFLEUR

Aren't sentries immune, too?

My apology, yes, the sentries are immune too.

LADYFLEUR

Why are elementals in the Confluence immune, but not elementals in Nelemar? Are all elementals not the same?

No, greater elementals are not the same as huge elementals.

LADYFLEUR

I thought we don't balance around pay areas.

We don't balance around Duskruin.

LADYFLEUR

I've never claimed an inability to hunt bandits. They are hands down the easiest and quickest hunting around.

I'm pretty sure you never claimed the inability to hunt almost every hunting area I listed. That wasn't the criteria for my list.

LADYFLEUR

Part of the power ceiling I'm looking for is the ability to hunt these same post-cap/capped creatures in the above capped hunting grounds that the other pures can. Warding spells don't have to have a third boost to address any EBP issues (there are none), so this is part of the tedium I'm talking about. It's also ineffective on many creatures that players actually hunt or want to hunt, as you pointed out above.

Pretty much the only one that stands out is the Scatter and I already addressed that above.

LADYFLEUR

Regardless of whether a creature is already prone or not, is it correct that the way we'll know it's affected is the bouncing along the ground line?

Yes, "Creature bounces along the floor|ground as the tremors shake." is the messaging for an affected target that is already prone.

GameMaster Estild

If you're channeling your bolt spells for the increased critical chance, you wouldn't need the stance defensive.

>No, not even after you narrow down your criteria to creatures that level 100 or higher.

I didn't quote/phrase that correctly, but I was asking the question in relation to the OTF line only.

>My apology, yes, the sentries are immune too.

>A level 100 character, whether newly leveled or 15m experience, can hunt and advance in any of those areas.
>Pretty much the only one that stands out is the Scatter and I already addressed that above.

I'm not looking at only creatures in the Scatter, which is why I mentioned the post-cap creatures in OTF, Nelemar, etc. Of course, a character can advance to infinity on bandits, but that is boring. Similarly, to me, underhunting is also boring. I could do all those things before I capped. This is why I asked the question about sentries and non-corporeal undead that don't stun or are immune to 909 stomp.

>No, greater elementals are not the same as huge elementals.

Huge elementals are OP! I want to become one!

>Yes, "Creature bounces along the floor|ground as the tremors shake." is the messaging for an affected target that is already prone.

Thanks for the clarification. Thanks also for the list, as it helps with my testing and will prevent me from wasting time building certain cases of data.

>>It doesn't change the fact it's another button to press though because in the actual game,

It's a text based game. Pressing buttons is sort of the point. But... I expect that won't matter to you, because it's not something you want. And... you should be able to press buttons pretty quickly, since it's literally just one button. Let's do a quick test. See the 1, and the 2 buttons on your keyboard. Now, on the count of three, I want you to press them, first 1, then 2. Did that take more than .5 seconds? If no, what's the problem. If yes, you should probably look into some other options. I'd recommend talk to text. I recall someone saying that worked well for them.

>>I, and many post-cap pure wizards, am never going to CHANNEL a single bolt/cycle in stance offensive for all the EBP/crit location/randomization lottery in one shot. CHANNELing a single bolt definitely never results in cast/kill or time/kill parity with the other pures.

Wut? I Insta - kill war Griffins with channeled steam all the time.