This is just feedback - not being negative but just a few suggestions.

I think Festival of the Fallen was great - I had fun and even got the surprise of the first merchant to offer extra services to the weighting. I was grateful - don't get me wrong and was even flattered by the nice comments of my weapon. However; I was a little shocked at the pricing and I understand some people may charge more or less as they see fit. So I have a question since I was under the impression by the posts from a few GMs that the services from the smithy and services from the merchant are separate. So when suddenly it costs 30+ mil to add 5 more service points, I was caught offguard since I had thought it be scaled like the bloodscrip for 1 to 2 kish per service point with the common understanding (based off market) of 1k of bloodscrip is about 1.5 million silvers. So I'm just trying to understand (besides silver drain) but it just seemed overpriced based off DR prices.

Again - I'm still grateful that I got what I could afford, but it just seemed off and I'm guessing we can expect prices like this in the future since this was the first time the services were offered for silvers as opposed to scrip.

Anyway.. just my feedback / thoughts (not ranting - just trying to understand the logic). It was still fun and I still the system is mostly fair.

Thanks.

__________________________
- Kobold in Disguise Falvicar, Blade of the Night

You swing a silver-edged black veil iron katana at Sevynne!

* Sevynne drops dead at your feet!
* Sevynne just bit the dust!

You would have been within the 60 day window (from the last such work on the item) where pricing is elevated.

Hopefully, by the time the EG services are offered this window would have elapsed for those that received work from one pay event to the next. Especially with the delay - reset smithy counters!!

That's just it, Roblar. Didn't Estild state that the 60 window frame is for the smithy and his only 25 services at most and not for the merchants since it's seperate?

__________________________
- Kobold in Disguise Falvicar, Blade of the Night

You swing a silver-edged black veil iron katana at Sevynne!

* Sevynne drops dead at your feet!
* Sevynne just bit the dust!

I don't understand how anyone could have gotten an impression different than that.

<sure the 60 day window is the go-forward model for S/W/P items. Each item has its own 60 day timer, regardless of the source of the S/W/P service.>

That was my impression as well.

While the blacksmith NPC is automated and gives you the quote, the timer and information is still on the item and the GM merchant would use it.

... and Merchant week will not be outside the 60 days.

---
Rohese: "... the TownCrier (tune in if you haven’t, it’s without doubt the best thing to ever happen on LNet)"
;tune towncrier

The service counter is a single counter no matter the method (GM Merchant/NPC) or the type being done. Going above 20 services is meant to be bit of a gut check.
With your (quite amazing) weapon, the next (28th) service this window would cost you a grueling ~7.5m silver. That same service at the start of the next window is slightly under 300k.

I've been intently reading the feedback on the system because it is very different than previous gear improvement systems. One of our goals here was to make a more consistent improvement system focused around dedication over time instead of maximizing your luck. It is very different to have to set the limits based on what you want/can afford rather than having them gated behind a dice rolls. There were some useful patterns that came out of the Duskruin data in terms of where players found the value in cutting themselves off.

The 25 service limit from Duskruin was more of a limitation on the first run of an automated system, but you can start to see that this number is going to be at or near the top of the service count for most players anyways.

As far as EG, I don't have details and will let that come from those closer to it. The 60 day window is meant to coincide with the frequency of festivals. Having the window be 30 or 60 days was something we discussed. We didn't want people to feel like they 'missed the window' if they took a weekend trip and missed that month's festival or a traveling merchant, and 60 days makes sure you have multiple opportunities at that. That said, having everyone priced out of their service window during a major festival is not the intent either.

Zissu - Combat and Magic Systems Dev Lackey

I was under the impression the 60 day is for the item to the smithy alone based on the forum. That was how I translated it with the understanding, too, that the smithy would be available at the other major events such as EG although in this case it means that those of us who used the smithy at DR are going to be push our luck with EG since it was the 4rd of Sept that DR closed (based off wiki). So those that got the smithy done on the last day... and 27 days left in Sept and we're into Oct. Plat people will have to the 20th of Oct while Prime are up to the 27th of Oct.

DR started on the 18th of August I think. So if somebody got lucky for the smithy on that day and got smithy work done then their window started on the 18th of Oct and for argument sake we can assume they have time to get / use the seashells <grin>.

If somebody got their smithy work near the end of DR.. let's say the 3rd of Sept then are only 55 days of the service window. So in reality, they'd need to at least have went to the smithy 5 days prior which woulda been the 30th of August. That means 12 days of DR to get the smithy work done but it could potentially make some people out of luck. So.. with that in mind, I'm going to take a guess the random spinning merchants are aimed more for people who didn't use the smithy?


I still think ~35 mil is rather high for 5 service points, respectfully. It woulda been nice to have been able to pay with leftover Bloodscrip as opposed to silvers, but I get that it's a silver drain. I guess the postings weren't clear enough that the "tax window" includes merchants (though my impression was tax was smithy only) since the smithy even tells you he won't do more work for you after your 25 services of the 60 day window was maxed. That's why I don't agree with the pricing if that's how it is going to be from here out since I honestly expected maybe 10 / 15 mil at the most to pay for 5 service points since the smithy is directly tied into the 60 day window.

It's just my feedback for whatever it's worth. I guess it's time to sort through my lockers and sell things that I'm not using.

___________________________
- Kobold in Disguise Falvicar, Blade of the Night

You swing a silver-edged black veil iron katana at Sevynne!

* Sevynne drops dead at your feet!
* Sevynne just bit the dust!

"If somebody got their smithy work near the end of DR.. let's say the 3rd of Sept then are only 55 days of the service window." -- Falvicar

The window has nothing to do with the timing of the event; it doesn't get shortened (to 55 days or anything else) by getting the service done later in the event.
The only way to arrive at <some number of days remaining in the window which is less than 60> is to have services done on an item, and then watch days pass by counting down from 60.

.

Zissu's revamp announcement was very clear:
"A 60 day Service Window is started at the first W/P/S on an item. Every W/P/S service done to that item within that 60 days will increase the Service Count within that window. Items will become more expensive to work on as the Service Count increases." -- http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Hunting%20and%20Combat/Weighting%20and%20Padding/view/65 (emphasis mine)

.

.

If you attend a week-long festival, and have a different item worked on each day, come the end you will have:
- one item with 60 days to go (the one you just got worked on)
- one item with 59 days to go (yesterday's item)
- one item with 58 days to go
- one item with 57 days to go
- one item with 56 days to go
- one item with 55 days to go
- one item with 54 days to go
* have paid 7x minimal cost...

...as opposed to having worked on the same item each day--getting (for example) 140 total services done on that item, which would have only 54 days to go in its current window!--and probably bankrupted the entire game from the escalating cost.

No. Many of you seem confused. Each ITEM has a 60 day W/P/S time window for services on that item. It's not based on the person, the merchant, where the smithy is, or anything else. When you put a service on an item, you start the 60 day services clock on the item. It's really not any more complicated than that. This is for the W/P/S system only. And it tracks per item.

>>We didn't want people to feel like they 'missed the window' if they took a weekend trip and missed that month's festival or a traveling merchant, and 60 days makes sure you have multiple opportunities at that. That said, having everyone priced out of their service window during a major festival is not the intent either.

I'd like to follow-up on this. This makes a lot of sense, IF the service windows are fixed, for instance every 2 months is a window, and they're not on a sliding form. My understanding is that the service windows are more like a cooldown, once you have a service, it takes 60 days for the scale to reset, and it's tracked per item.

With the sliding window, then taking a weekend trip and missing that month's festival or merchant DOES result in missing the window, because it extends your window by 30 days (you have 30 dead days where you aren't on cooldown). As anybody who knows cooldowns from many games knows, if a resource isn't on cooldown, it's being wasted. In fact, I'd want a way to voluntarily start the cooldown window myself, just so that I don't lose the cooldown time.

Basically, what I'm getting at is that the intention of avoiding missing the window being 60 days only makes sense with fixed windows.

>> Krakii

Yeah, I'd get behind pre-set windows. I personally like that approach more.

And your tiny window could also just be a really small bonus window or something. or just.. no services.

Based on all this discussion, I would argue that the system is performing exactly as intended. I hate to be blunt, but the stated design was to allow for continuous marginal upgrades over a long period of time, not massive upgrades over a short period. The service windows are forcing that behavior exactly.

One problem is that this is the first "year" that the system is in place. Had it been going a year or more, more than likely the people who got work done on an item at this most recent DR would still be in a service window from HSN, so they'd be picking gear that would have been worked on before that (or paying higher prices). Then the gear they got done at HSN would be in an expired window at EG, so they add more to that. Then somewhere around end of year (do we have a festival type event end of year?) they are back to working on the items they got done at DR.

From what I am seeing, the staff intends to allow for many frequent "service merchants" to be available, with the limiting factor largely being our ability to pay for those services (with some upper bounds in place), and not the rarity of those merchants in the first place.

One possible kink in the armor (pun intended!) is that we're mixing event types and payment types. DR was a bloodscrip event, and the next available servicing window for that gear might be a "silvers" event/merchant. I'm not sure if that's an issue or not, but wanted to point it out.

> HSN/Hot Summer Nights isn't really a 'thing' currently. :)

It was ...! 2 years ago!

---
Rohese: "... the TownCrier (tune in if you haven’t, it’s without doubt the best thing to ever happen on LNet)"
;tune towncrier

Yeah I think I meant to say Midsummer Festival or somesuch... you get the idea.

Also, I'm pretty sure HSN was retired after the last one, out of fear too many players would drop dead of flashback related cardiac events.

I agree that if you put your blinders on the system is working as intended, but the reality is that so far the prices are too high, and availability has not yet lived up to the promise. Part of the reason stated for the change was to open up availability of the service to more people. The high pricing cuts sharply into that on a practical level.

Additionally, since the smithy did arrive late, the period should be cleared at the start of EG, so that the service can be available there.

This service should be available at all major festivals, unless it is going to be a standard offering at most merchants that might otherwise be doing something fairly mundane like GALD, common flares, or script adding. This system should be a trade off: incremental change, in exchange for a higher level of availability of the service. So far, and it's early, we've seen little evidence that this is going to be a common service, which is what will be required to make the incremental part have any practical value. Lack of availability will also exacerbate the high price structure, as it will force those who want meaningful improvement to pay more than would be the case under the promised increased availability.

Kerl

<Additionally, since the smithy did arrive late, the period should be cleared at the start of EG, so that the service can be available there.>

I agree, but now that is has gone out at Fest of Fallen too I'd think clearing counters (and checking each item) would be too manual a mess. And resetting all of them somehow would benefit Fest of Fallen items.

You could only add 5 service points at FoF so it wouldn't be a significant benefit.

I think I squeak by the 60 days anyway (assuming smithy is open until end of fest and not just during merchant week), but it is only fair that any item worked on at Duskruin should have an opportunity at EG since they would all have eligible if not for the delay.

My issue lies here.

There is no way to know when your 60 day window expires unless you kept a note when you received the service.

I'd like to request that ANALYZE show the date when your 60-day window ends. It would also be nice if it showed how many current service points within the 60 day window have been used. (And how many total service points are on the item.)

I don't see how any of your ifs make a difference Krakii.

Except that availability of invites was a fluid thing, with the dial turned way up BECAUSE the release was a mess, which is the same reason the smithy didn't open in a timely manner. These Duskruin events are always fluid, and things are rarely as neat as an if/then statement. The proof is in the pudding, and I'd like to see the promised increase in availability, that somshow relates with the increase in price quantity of services required for a meaningful result.

Kerl