At this point, a couple of things really stand out to me about this that I just can't seem to wrap my head around.

First, the secrecy surrounding this, from the implementation of a change to the lack of information regarding the issue the change is meant to address feels very unfriendly. A change to the fundamental mechanics of a system AND a skill that players spend training points on is changed, and I believe that merits some forthright communication.

This lack of communication is what probably sticks in my craw the most, as it feels as though we're being treated like we can't handle knowing without making the "problem" worse. The logic of this really falls down here, because if there is a problem and this change is meant to be the solution. More people knowing and thus more people generating data should give one the ability to grasp the full effect of any changes like this more quickly and help to realize a more permanent/effective solution.

Second, if there was a problem and said problem has been fixed by these changes, then why is telling us what the problem was an issue? Coase, you said you didn't want to render the solution you implemented ineffective, but if the changes you made are that fragile to the overall solution of the problem, then I dare say these changes are not the solution to the problem. Furthermore, if these changes are really something that one cannot be confident in their efficacy of, why bother at all?

Coase, you claimed that you wanted to make a targeted change to impact as few people as possible, but the reaching ramifications of this change feel like they weren't considered at all (like my Silver to Gold example, which you've yet to respond to the validity of my concerns regarding). The net "gain" here appears to be a lot of ruffled feathers and confusion, and for what, to prevent farmers from farming as effectively, which isn't really changed, just how much they're getting from it. So, the farming problem, not solved, but the silver generation problem, well, someone stuck their finger in one of the holes on that leaky boat.

For the life of me, I can't understand how this is an issue in the first place, to be honest. Someone was leaning on the system as hard as possible to maximize gains, this isn't exactly new to gaming, or Gemstone. Usually this sort of min/maxing is something that players are proud of, and GMs are impressed by when someone achieves it (so long as they're not abusing game mechanics). Since it doesn't appear to have been a GMA problem, what's the difference here? I feel like all of this is motivated by some unknown fear that is likewise not being disclosed to us.

---

Peace cannot be kept by force; it can only be achieved by understanding. - Albert Einstein

Straight up this is a lazy fix. Rather than script checking these individuals and interrupting/banning their actions, a blanket change was put into effect that has the potential to impact every player.

Then you don't announce it? There's plenty of things you don't HAVE to do, but you do it because it's the right thing to do. Just because you're not obligated to announce it you don't? This is sneaky and underhanded.

>My forging mage does not hunt so he's fully trained in trading and has a good influence bonus on top of it. My capped ranger blows through the Confluence and gets a metric ton of gems. The mage sells them for him and makes me a tidy profit. Chances are I need to stop doing that when I'm really hunting hard and just train my ranger in trading instead.

It's interesting to compare how this works in DragonRealms and Gemstone. As I understand it, in DR you have PCs of a dedicated profession that people hand things off to, such as gem pouches, and share the profits with. It's basically the same process, and in DR the Trader also gains some experience for it. Scripting is far more prevalent in DR than it is in GS, because experience is learned through repetition. Traders train these skills from the get-go, because they are fundamental to their profession and they can't increase in level/circle without them. Please correct me if I'm wrong on any of these. If this is the case, is the system in DR more exploitable than GS? I suspect the difference is the length of time it takes to kill a critter and loot it in one vs. the other. If combat doesn't change in GS, maybe the value of loot dropped should be slowly reduced over time. Including skins. Or, maybe combat needs to slow down so it's less exploitable. Or, something else? I'd just as soon turn Trading into something else, if it's too easily abused.

>>If combat doesn't change in GS, maybe the value of loot dropped should be slowly reduced over time. Including skins. Or, maybe combat needs to slow down so it's less exploitable.
>
>This is a terrible idea. I'd rather we stop nerfing everything unnecessarily.

I agree -- I am full of terrible ideas, and a few good ones, here and there. Anyway, I suggested maybe this needs to happen. I don't think this is true. The assumption is that things are working alright in DragonRealms. If this isn't the case, then this sort of change would solve nothing. I do think that trading, in its current form, with its current benefits, is an anachronism.

>I don't think the script-grinding bot culture of DR is anything to aspire to, and I wish we would stop borrowing the worst of all of their traits in the events, etc. pushed on GS.

I agree. The warrior's guild, when it was introduced, was a first in terms of asking GS players to grind something over and over to get better at it. That's DR. Get better at foraging by foraging; get better at hiding by hiding. In GS, you gain experience to train in a skill. The rogue's guild, and all the artisan skills, all follow DR's method of getting better by practicing a skill. It's a clever design, and it's sensible because it mimics how we learn in real life, but unfortunately it leads to script dependency, which leads to script zombies. I do think combat in GS is fast sometimes -- the one hit kills become ridiculous -- but I also think combat in DR is too slow. Players all have limited attention spans, and even if something is engaging doesn't make it perfect. Combat in DR, for example, is engaging. You can fight with one critter (or a group of them) for 20 min, and it keeps you on your toes, and you finally defeat them, and are mindlocked in a large number of skills (saturated) but in GS you might be carrying the loot of 60-80 critters by then. I think the design of both games should aspire to combat scripting by making it redundant, less useful. But this is a bit further off-topic than I intended to get.

>This is false once the cap is in place it affects all loot self looted or not.

>people crying about screen scroll in the gemshop

Remember when SELL <container> wasn't an option and all gems and skins and stuff had to be sold individually?

First world internet problems...

~ Methais

I don't like having to receive it as a note. <shrug> Personal foible.

Though I try to avoid doing really BIG sacks of gems, there are times when I've Purified a bunch and sell 6-10 each of pearls/sapphires/rubies/emeralds/diamonds.

I sell all my gems individually because I track the data about average/min/max values

AIM: m444w

<What bothers me are the folks that go into the locksmith shop and have their ;sloot or maybe ;loot (or whatever else lich scrips they use) scripts open all their boxes in under 5 seconds and they drop crap all over the floor (boxes that have items like an herb in them) and they run out the door. This is annoying.>

I 100% agree with this, I HATE it when I'm trying to see what was in the box one of my non-rogues just had opened only for the text to immediately scroll off the screen when someone with a poorly written script walks in, gets 5-10 boxes opened, empties them (without the EMPTY verb most of the time), and runs out leaving half (or all) of the boxes laying at my feet.

I'm not some anti-scripting jerk, but do those that use them for stuff like this really have to be so inconsiderate? Is it really so hard to wait a minute or two to let someone that's already their finish up before running the script? How about repeating the command to drop the box in the trash when there's an herb or somesuch in it that you don't want rather then dropping it (it's not like any of them ever LOOK in the box to see what they might be tossing away)? How about adding a couple lines to the script to make sure you have the right noun for the trash receptacle?

Starchitin

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.

<I don't want to have a script run out, pull more silvers from the bank,>

And even more joy from those running it afk because they they have insufficient silvers in the bank and so are on an endless loop from bank to NPC locksmith. I've seen this and joined their group several times before getting them pulled.

So this is an interesting change.

Just curious if this is going to extend to other aspects of the game, or if it already does extend to other aspects?

Like, I purify all of my character's gems (well all the valuable ones anyways) is there a limit to how many silvers I can generate via purifying gems my bard didn't find?

Does this affect racial bias too? Like my dark elves get raked over the coals in Icemule yet my halflings make a small fortune, which is why I typically have my halflings sell valuable stuff.

Or should I just stop talking now before I give the GMs too many ideas? :O

>> ...and really the racial bias when selling stuff is a huge negative for some races (COUGHDARKELFCOUGH) and a huge bonus for certain races in certain towns.

I'm pretty sure that it is intended that each race have various benefits and penalties vs. other races in the game.

-- Robert

* Wyrom was just vaporized!

>I'm pretty sure that it is intended that each race have various benefits and penalties vs. other races in the game.

Yeah I understand it wasn't a typo that resulted in Dark Elves getting screwed when selling stuff, but we're talking some serious silvers in some cases and it doesn't really add any value to the game or anything, it just punishes someone for their roleplaying or mechanical choice. And honestly dark elves don't really have all that much going for them to begin with mechanical wise.

Take Icemule for example, if a Halfling and a Dark Elf each find/sell the same value of stuff the Halfling is going to have 1.1 mil for every 1 mil the Dark Elf earns.

How about Sol Haven, a Human is going to have 1.3 million for every 1 million the Dark Elf has. This is a huge disadvantage for the dark elf and again for nothing really in return. It doesn't really add any flavor to the game. No one is sitting there looking at their 10 million silvers saying "I accept the fact that I earn 3 million silvers less than humans because the townspeople don't like dark elves."

Let's buff trading to overcome these racial biases. Like take Sol Haven for example, humans receive a 5% racial bonus, the best. Half elves have -5% bonus, so make it so via training in trading they can eventually get to that +5% bonus. Same with other races; dark elves start off at -25% but eventually they can reach +5%.

So humans have the innate bonus and don't need to train to get the extra cash, half elves have to train in trading to get the same +5% bonus but dark elves have to train the most to reach that +5% bonus.

There we go. Dark Elves still get screwed for no reason but at least in this one aspect they can eventually overcome said screwedness via skill training.

>>Punishing dark elves adds when selling stuff adds zero to the game.

This means nothing. There are a ton of things that 'add zero to the game' depending on what's important to the player in question.

Great news, though - you can train up another character and ensure you get one you can rollplay better!

Doug

>>There is zero reason why a human in Sol Haven earns 30% more silver than a dark elf,
Theres a whole wiki full of RP reasons. If you choose to remove those from the equation then sure, mechanically there is no give and take to balance the equation. But GS isn't a game of just mechanics or just RP, its a mix of both.

Wyrom says, "Ordim is the reason savants won't be coded as well."

>Theres a whole wiki full of RP reasons.

The merchants already make snide remarks at my Dark Elves when they buy and sell stuff, the RP is already baked in. Plus we can achieve the same result by making it like a 1 or 2 point difference between the races, not 30%.

Also these are merchants, they should value trading above all else so when a really suave Dark Elf with 140 INF and 252 trading ranks walks in they should be bending over backwards to want to trade with this person. /mic drop

>I'm not sure what purpose you think this served, but pretty confident it missed.

It served the purpose that you aren't making any arguments and are being contrary just to be contrary. That was pretty evident.

>Started really getting important around the time the trading cap was put into play, I'll warrant. I mean, after a whole decade. . .

I've mentioned this throughout the years as well, but since I realized I could just hand stuff to my halfling to sell I didn't start some sort of crusade about it. Now that the GMs have decided to nerf this I'm mentioning it again. Also, you're kind of proving my point with this line here. "Oh you didn't care about this until the trading cap was put into place! Oh see, I like it the way it is now because it affects you personally!"

Yes, I get it, you are inherently against anything I am for. You have made that painfully obvious over the years. At least attempt to make an argument while you're at it.

>Consider - do you also want to declare the halfling's inability to target the head of most creatures as a 'broken mechanic'?

See now you're just being ridiculous because I specifically pointed to the fact that halflings have negatives to even out their positives. Instead of focusing on a race that has clear mechanical advantages and disadvantages that I've already pointed out, why not answer the question I already posed, which is; what makes Dark Elves so awesome mechanically that it warrants upwards of 30% less silver earnings compared to other races.

>Maybe the giantman's inability to get into certain areas without having to crawl?

Well a few seconds of inconvenience here and there certainly is on the same scale of earning millions of silvers less than other races that would take literally dozens of hours to earn.

Thanks for being rational about this.

>The elven (all elves) spirit regeneration?

Of which dark elves and elves are in a league of their own with the absolute worst spirit regen. You're not proving your argument here very well.

>Talk about those mechanics in your comparisons (and others like those for other races), they'll be far, far more appropriately aligned.

Not really for reasons I have already mentioned.

Try again but this time keep your personal feelings and bias towards me out of your argument and see if you come up with a better argument this time.

Ok, I'll admit, I lol'd. Woke up the household, thanks!

"But no, seriously, you're wrong" - I have agreed with you and supported your perspective many a time. In fact, ironically, the purposeful statement that 'kinda proves the point' is considered an 'acknowledgement' where I come from. Too funny!

But to the really relevant matter on the topic - what you're experiencing in your data can be found under the wonderful name of the trading formula's skill boost. It's a threshold thing. https://gswiki.play.net/Trading

As to the purpose of the change - I'd be interested in the response, as well. I have my suspicion about why the trading cap is in place, but would love to hear the formal answer too!

By the way, for real excitement in the 'how much am I really losing' experience, try a half-krolvin. ;)

Doug

>>But if trading bonus is null after the 1 million weekly cap then this shouldn't affect anything.

Hmm. . . point. I took the announcement to mean that the trading skill was ignored, which would still allow for the skill boost portion of the formula. But you may be right on this point. I see what you mean about the math not quite covering the observation. Maybe that can get an NIR clarification, too!

Doug

They should get rid of the Trading skill and the Racial bias all together.

< Maybe get rid of race too while we are at it? >

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at least your not blowing it out of proportion, allow me to explain for you.

Silver is most often used with trading with players - it's rarely ever used in significant quantity when trading with non-person characters. there is no player seller whom has ever said...well your an x/y race, so pay me more... since racial bias does not apply to 99% of spending silvers - it should not be a factor in gaining silvers... but. I'll wait for you to reply with how it in fact promotes a contiguous role-play experience, outside of making it easier for the GM's to identify the silver-farmers through mechanical advantages it allows. Not that they will do anything about it.. the MA silver teams likely make up significant portion of the active subscription counts.

The only places racial bias (in a general RP-standpoint) is done correctly in my humble opinion is in Ta'Vaalor and arguably Ta'Illisitm with Dark elves and the Inn's they cannot use. My Character does not like Ta'Illisitm and rarely steps foot in it/takes part in those storylines because of it :)