dirty trolls and orcs and such get awesome cmans but bards get none! for shame! But a fun new challenge to see how much more often I die horribly in warcamps!

<<<Cause warcamps weren't hard enough for 90% of builds?>>>

That was my first thought, honestly. Of all the monsters in the world, were Grimswarm really the ones that needed to be harder? Hah!

~ GtG

They already had access to calm, at least the ranger mass calm.

I get hit with that regularly when a spawn has large numbers of those pesky rangers.

What new cmans / smans are you seeing?

I won't be capped waramping for a few nights... wondering how devious Coase can truly be.

Shield push would be amusing. Shield trample... also amusing, in a different way.

Morden, player of.

Ok I am going to restate something I raised a stink about when the new shield maneuvers came out and I can go back and find the posts if needed.

I had a huge concern about shield manvs, particularly aggressive ones that stun, and with arrows being deflected back. Semis have considerably less maneuvers to train or choose from then squares, dont have the magic pure casters have, and really have no way to train to defend against these type moves. I was particularly concerned about defending against bandits and or if these became available to grims. Grims already have ample abilities to find hidden snipers and defend against arrows, plus they beat on semis in many ways because they have the full skills of many professions that semis by nature just cannot defend against easily.

That discussion thread led to a rather long series of posts on the discussion, including a few GM posts,and an explanation that the shield and new cmans were only developed to equalize squares to give some advantages to players and balance professions, and I specifically asked if these will get in the hands of Grimswarms or bandits... The answer was No that there totally different systems and critter manvrs. dont work like player nor are they designed to, that again were developed Solely for the intent of profession balance, and only intended for character uses, not creatures.

The answer was clearly No they were meant to equalize player professions, not for use by creatures.. Soo now I guess all that before was just not true?

Aside from that, as a ranger that solo hunts camps, my general experience is, I can snipe 4 or 5 before I am spotted, and once I am spotted its run or die. They already wait you out on 140, 117 and camo usually, so you have to go find them then hide. In the open I cant use web, they break it, cant use tangleweed, they dispell it, cant use fury brings down the shroud, might be able to use 110 but likely not there td is too high if I pick the wrong one to cast at, there CS for there casters is generally way over any rangers ability to stand up to, so you really have no magic to attack with for any duration. Open archery is usually blocked and you only get a couple shots at best before if nothing else has got you, one of them stuns you with a cman. and then your done. I know someone out the is going to say get an imbed with e wave or tremors in it, and that helps -might let me rehide, but honestly should I really Have to go find magic items made by other characters to just be able to survive past killing 5 or 6 critters then run, or use tons of enhansives that are expensive just to hunt there? The vast majority of the time its the cmans that get me, at least I can hide a moment to change rooms if I see a big caster, but you cant do anything if your stunned and on one knee.

Oh wait, never mind. Shamans just can't be stunned, even though they can instantly shake the stun because they're Grimswarm... which is why they're immune to subdue. So just excuse my previous rant.

Messed up my ABCs!

For subdue to work they have to have A) head, B)e corporeal, C)ease to be a golem, D)on't wear full plate, E)asily stunned, F)orget about it and just ambush it instead, G)ood job!

H)i mom!

.jaired
>LIKE A BOSS
Please rephrase that command.

Sounds like future skin/templates for imperial invaders that will be killing all of us to me!

Isn't it a fact that warcamps were specifically designed to be be raided by groups? That is, they were never intended to be solo hunting grounds? I get that some people seem to be able to survive them alone, but isn't it intended to be incredibly dangerous and foolhardy to do so? Just a thought.

~ GtG

<<<Also, someone said camps were meant to be grouped... Most of the time I find camps easier solo as they dont come out as fast, maybe two at a time where with a group of two or three they really increase that to as much as six or seven at a time. If theres multiple sorcerers that can get hairy fast even with the extra bodies attacking. >>>

That's something I didn't realize. Shows you how long it's been since I tried one solo. Still, I always thought the original intent was to encourage grouping? It is, after all, a fairly significant military action; raiding a warcamp of battle-ready combatants. I also realize times have changed a bit, so maybe the "group" dynamic has been made less important than it once was?

Even with a GoS master, warcamps are still a bit of an enigma to me. I decided long ago to stick with groups when it came to warcamps. But maybe I'll have to give it a try sometime...

~ GtG

>Very much true, however, if your times to be able to play dont coincide with the prime hours, and or you live in a town where grims are the only option to learn from, then you have to hunt them alone. The other option is just not play the game at all unless you know others are going to be around.

Or one other option would be to just move towns, you're not forced to stay in one place. I know it can be frustrating to some to leave what they're used to but there are plenty of towns to get to know in elanthia with a wide array of hunting areas. If you're mastered in sunfist theres no need to ever do another camp even.

>Also, this need to do things in groups

Ive played quite a few different professions and never noticed a need to group. Not all professions are made to do every bounty/society easily of course and grouping would help but its not hard to avoid things that are a weakness or you dont like. It just takes a little time to find the right hunting ground for your level and you can keep your anti social rp intact.

<<<The concept to do advg tasks or sunfist tasks your encouraged to join other players in itself is a good idea. It does tho create a bit of a R/P issue when you have a character that is basically anti-social and has to group up with others that normally he/she would not be that friendly with. Its an adjustment me as a player doesnt mind, but sometimes later on when that character is criticized for not being friendly or at time even gets OOC comments about why are you being a jerk.. It becomes, do you to modify your R/P to suit the tasks, or do them solo to preserve the R/P.>>>

This opens a whole different topic, probably best suited for the Roleplaying folder...but let me just say, I think the best played anti-social/villain/jerk characters are those that people actually still want to be around. It's a very difficult distinction to make, granted, but it can be done. The challenge is to convey the character traits you want to get across without actually alienating your audience. This takes a bit of planning and effort. For inspiration, think of all the stories where the protagonists wind up having to travel with some unsavory characters, to accomplish a common goal. Such pairings give rise to very interesting situations, and interesting situations are what make RP really work. It's the contrast, the tension between different personalities and motivations, that makes for great stories and roleplay.

I understand not everyone sees it that way. Some people just want to play with characters exactly the same as their own characters, and that's a shame. Human nature, I suppose. We do, after all, tend to group with people who share our visions, goals and ideals. This is nice, in the way joining a knitting club is nice, but doesn't serve as much of a catalyst for truly epic roleplay. :)

Anyway, my point is--if I actually had one--is that I don't think playing a "loner" necessarily need be a hindrance to group hunting. There's always a way to script it out so he or she has a good reason to seek the aid of others. If the other players can't handle the resulting friction, that's their loss! :)

Thus ends my totally self-indulgent tangent. Carry on, my loyal minions.

~ GtG

<I'd like to second what folks said above about risk vs reward. It would be really nice if there was more reward in killing grimswarm and other hated enemies. We gain all those society points for killing bad guys, it would be nice if there were something to spend it on like we can with the Adventurer's guild. Perhaps even similar rewards, not everyone necessarily wants to do ADG tasks after all.>

Actually, a great deal of my fussing comes from losing the exp / sting/ and stamina loss from repeated deaths when there is no one around to help, or no way to get a chrism. If the town clerics had a higher price option to get a chrism, or if the Sunfist skills offered a way to do something similar, most of my complaints would vanish. I don't mind that I have to kill just a few and go, it the fact that its always a very high risk even walking in a camp and I have died before even getting a cast or swing in at all. Perhaps as you said with the points, maybe we could use points to purchase a potion or orb that works like some other things, its passively stays active until you die, it acts as a chrism, but you have to go use more points to get a new one. they only work for sunfisters, make em cost 15000 points, then even with a million points yould have at best 65 or so of them.

>>If only there were some sort of item to store such a thing!

Such things as that are incredible, especially the self-use ones. I just wish they had been compatible with the town clerics as well, but we can't have it all.

>>Was 1030 damage changed against Grimswarm? From what I can see it has been. Change it back. Thanks.

I went warcamping for the first time since the changes last week and I noticed this as well. Heh, I did a few double takes when casting sonic disruption a few trolls ignored my cast completely. I managed to scroll up quickly to copy/paste what happened to look at later. Someone taught the trolls the martial stance Slippery mind! How dare they ignore my waggling in their general direction.

Our capped trio only had time to raze a 450 troll and begin a second one of similiar size before calling it a night. It was certainly a little tougher than before and we had to run out quite a few more times for healing, usually due to me being on the receiving end of a headbutt. We certainly spent a lot more time in positions other than standing and a lot of minor stuns.

Couple questions I thought of when I was able to scroll up after a hunt.

1. Is dirtkick realm specific with its messaging? I don't have the clip saved but I had a troll kick a clump of seawater at me. Oh no direct hit to the face! The saltwater burns your eyes! Made me lol even if a clump of seawater is a bit goofy.
2. When players with spiked armor use headbutt can the spike flare? Headbutts ended my hunt probably 4 times last night and one of them also had a spike flare. I thought that was pretty mean giving trolls spiked helmets until I realized it was his full plate spike that flared, seemed a bit odd to me. I'll count myself grateful you haven't given them spiked AND flaring gear.
3. What profession base are the raiders? I had always assumed they were warrior based since PC warriors have the title raider available to them. I had a raider that avoided my casts with Slippery Mind and to me that would not be a martial stance I expected him to have, I did not get a chance to check out his armor however.

Lochiven

"One of the changes was to increase the level of damage mitigation that the Grimswarm have against some particularly devastating mass spells. 1030 is particularly problematic, because its damage grows into nearly guaranteed rank 9+ crits, such that I was observing that the grand hunting of strategy of many bards in warcamps was essentially enter, sing 1030, renew, and leave fried in under 30 seconds. I had considered increasing TDs or making the shroud more oppressive, but either of those have ripple effects beyond the problematic spells themselves.-GM Coase"

I can understand the problem 1030 poses for you and I will think of some suggestions/solution for you, but having 1030 not even stun them is rough. If we can just get it to stunning I would be fine, though that would probably leave pures in the lurch. I tend to just use the lance and 1030 for crowd control though.

Maybe 1030 could effect the Shroud more? 1 cast per minute, or a warning on the first cast? 2nd mass cast or renew triggers the backlash.

GBB

> I was observing that the grand hunting of strategy of many bards in warcamps was essentially enter, sing 1030, renew, and leave fried in under 30 seconds.- Coase

Im not sure how it would be accomplished but 1030 pales in comparison to those using 515 in camps and just spamming a low mana spell 5000x in 30 seconds and leaving fried too. 515 doesnt affect the shroud at all, makes the caster almost immune with how quickly it kills etc. Any pure can have a wizard stack 515 on them and become power uber caster as well.

>>or no way to get a chrism

If only there were some sort of item to store such a thing!

The holders are great, but they still require a cleric to be around to be used. they dont work with the town cleric.

I think what Galen is asking for is to go ahead and mitigate the damage if you want (including even reduction of crit levels)... just don't make them immune to the stuns.

The rank and file Grimswarm are not immune to stuns and there are no plans to make them so. Only "grizzled" level Grimswarm creatures have stun immunity.

Coase

Definitely seeing some serious nerfing with the 1030 in warcamps. I went from getting about 50 grimswarm per my 1 death to 4. Warcamps were going to be my backup plan after I noticed how much the rift likes taking my bard songs down. It's just not viable to solo warcamps anymore and I don't like hunting in groups. So much for trying to stay in the landing/mule/sol area for storyline purposes. To Nelemar!

Isn't the increased challenge reward enough? :p

-- Robert