Can a mod please get her off topic garbage out of this thread? This is supposed to be a discussion about the collaborative ranger guide not "Van tells everyone how she wants the wiki to work."

Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!

I'm a really big fan of the way Whirlin sets up his guides. What do you guys think about setting up a section for "core" training for various ranger builds and then option things you can train in addition with extra points? As an example:

Archer Ranger:

2x Ranged Weapons
1x Ambush
1x Perception
1x Physical Fitness
1x Harness Power
1x Spell Research


Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!

>RE: Core training build.

This was essentially what I had in mind as well, but my plan was more along the traditional method (a more complete training plan).

In your (general your for everybody) experiences, has the example posted above in Kithus' post been well received by new players to the game? Admittedly, I have never presented it to others in such a compact manner, but I can definitely see the value in it.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I like its simplicity.

Others' thoughts?

~Brian, Sepher's player

>Archer Ranger:

>1x Perception

I thought that the suggestion (per "The Art of the Bow") was 2x perception. I know that's what I end up doing, but maybe others get away with 1x easily.
Also, if one is going for a sniping ranged ranger, 2x stalking and hiding is useful here as well.


For the general wiki stuff... so I added a bit of text to the guide sort of without consulting anyone ("What is a Ranger?"). It was something sort of suggested in the bullet points on the talk page and definitely needed before any serious discussion of the particulars so beginners have some sense of what they're signing up for.

Anyone is free to edit my prose though, it could certainly use to be fleshed out. :)

My humble opinion:

Too much effort at this point being put into this discussion. I for one would enjoy seeing rangers back discussing, ranger guide-issues. And others to leave them alone long enough for them to get things set up. Tweaking fonts, line spacing or whatever other edits others want to do can happen after the meat at dinner is on the table.


John

I thought that the suggestion (per "The Art of the Bow") was 2x perception. I know that's what I end up doing, but maybe others get away with 1x easily.

Personally I consider 2x perception a given for an archer ranger but I wasn't sure if others shared that view so I only included the 1x in my quick, mock up core training. The idea behind the "core" training is that it is what EVERY archer ranger should train in, no exceptions. The "core" for each build should be the stuff you really need to have to make the build work. As I said, I like the way Whirlin sets it up in his wizard guide with core training, discreet training goals and optional training.

As an example of each; 2x ranged would be core training, 35 ranks of armor for brig (or whatever plateau for whatever armor you want) would be a discreet training goal and 1x survival would be optional.

Also, if one is going for a sniping ranged ranger, 2x stalking and hiding is useful here as well.

That would fall under optional.

Overall I am going to start working on a whole "archer ranger" build section and I'll post here when I've got it done.

Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!

>50 Ranks in Climbing
>50 Ranks in Swimming

This could be about right for cap, perhaps, but does not seem to shed light on the distribution. Here, I will assume the goal is a _beginner's guide_ perspective.

Naturally, I am fond of what I wrote on the general paladin guide. I'm of the opinion that probably that advice should be globally syndicated:

https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Paladin#Climbing_and_Swimming

Now, it depends on your race, stats, region, etc. But I think between 5-10 ranks of swimming and 10-15 is good enough into around the 40s. I think getting into the Citadel I went to about 20 climbing ranks. For the climb between the Krag Slopes and the Hidden Plateau, I went to 35 (mid-70s hunting). And to swim into the Bowels, I got annoyed with 20 swimming ranks and went to 35 in 5-rank steps (mid-80s hunting).

If one wants to pass these skill checks while being a fully laden swallow, well, that's a discussion. And I realize rangers are more the "trekking" type and that the skills are cheap. But 50 ranks seems ridiculous to me without being qualified on a per-level threshold, much less as a point-blank statement.

---

>Kayse scrambles to avoid being sucked into the void!

As an anecdote, my janky dwarven warmage swims under the grate to the krolvin ship in RR (which is known for low-level swimming checks) with a whopping 4 ranks of swimming.

---

>Kayse scrambles to avoid being sucked into the void!

Sorry to spam, but this form doesn't have an edit function.

The 1x Dodge suggestion isn't terrible, but once one learns 618, one has 20 ranks of dodge +1 for every subsequent ranger spell learned. I know that early on, I got myself 5 ranks of dodge (which was deemed superfluous, but not too excessive by a few people) and I didn't start training in it again until after I'd learned 640 and moved off to training in MnS. So if a ranger is tight for TPs early on, it's definitely something that can be sacrificed.


Also, there's the issue of CMANs, which wasn't covered at all in your suggestion. Sniping rangers probably want 45 in SMASTERY when they get around their mid-40s or 50s and apparently everyone should have some ranks in DISARM... but I've heard that debated a bit too (e.g. that snipers don't need it) so idk.


Oh, and you suggested SMC as an optional thing, but you should note that you don't need anything past 25 ranks (24 for perfect sharing +1 for 2x multi-incant), except as a post-cap goal (if you want 3x incant, 4x incant and mana spellup).

Draft 2:

The Archer Ranger
Robin Hood, Green Arrow, Legolas, Daryl Dixon, Link, the list goes on. These are just some famous fictional ranger types that use a bow as one of their primary weapons. The tradition of the nature wise, forest dwelling archer goes back longer than we can remember. In Gemstone IV this character archetype is one of the most deadly and efficient hunters around. A properly trained archer ranger will devastate their enemies with precise shots to critical body parts while using their nature magic to set up their targets as needed. Some chose to do so from stealth as a sniper, while others stand toe to toe with their foes and rely on spells and dodge to keep them safe. Both approaches have their merits and, as we rangers are wont to say, there really is no wrong way to train a ranger.

Why Ranged?
Ranged Weapons are one of the most efficient forms of combat in Gemstone IV. The ranger class is uniquely setup to employ ranged combat effectively. The skills we are able to train in compliment the ranged play style. Many spells on the ranger spell list also help with archery.

Nothing beats taking down a tough enemy with a single, well-placed shot to the eye. That is the kind of efficiency archery in Gemstone IV excels at. A properly trained archer can take down any enemy that can be crit killed with ease and rangers have all the tools to make it happen.

From a skills and stats perspective, Rangers are set up to be natural archers. Their cost for ranged weapons is tied for second with rogues as the cheapest in the game at 3 Physical and 1 Mental training points. One of their primary stats, Dexterity, is the main Attack Strength statistic for ranged as well. They also have the third lowest cost for ambush and are tied for the second lowest cost to perception, both important secondary skills that affect an archer’s AS and DS. Rangers are also the only class aside from rogues who can effectively make use of hiding as a defense.

The ranger spell list provides many unique benefits for archery, both directly and indirectly. Self control (613) provides a direct boost to the ability to aim a ranged attack. Phoen’s Strength (606) gives a phantom increase of +10 to strength bonus, a flat 1 second reduction to ranged round time. Mobility (618) offers a large bonus to Dodge, an archer’s primary defense. Sniper builds benefit from hiding bonuses from Natural Colors (601) and Sneaking (617), as well as being able to retain the +30 AS bonus from Camouflage (608) for multiple attacks, as long as the archer remains hidden. Rangers also benefit from a plethora of set up spells that can complement any weapon style, such as Sounds (607), Tangle weed (610) and Call Swarm (615).

With so many benefits built in to the ranger class for archery, it is not hard to see why this is one of our preferred training paths.


______________________________________

Archer Ranger Core Training – This is your base training that every archer ranger should have each level.
2x Ranged Weapons (9/3)
2x Perception (0/6)
1x Ambush (3/3)
1x Dodge (7/5)
1x Physical Fitness (4/0)
1x Harness Power (0/5)
Total of 23/22

Archer Ranger Discreet Training – These values are plateaus you should strive to reach at some point in your career.
30 or 70 ranks in Armor Use for Brigandine or Augmented Chain respectively - Try to train up to your desired armor ASAP as points allow.
50 Ranks in Climbing by level 100, train this as needed to make climb checks prior to that.
50 Ranks in Swimming by level 100, train this as needed to make swim checks prior to that.
60 Ranks of Spell Research – All rangers should strive to get 640 at level 40 and then up to at least 120 ASAP

Optional Additional Training – A list of the most common skills to use your additional training points on.
2x Stalking and Hiding – If you plan to snipe then you will want to 2x this, if you are an open archer then skip it entirely.
1x-2x Survival – This will aid in skinning and foraging
1x-2x First Aid – This will aid in skinning and reduce herb eating RT
+1x Ambush – Additional AS for a steep cost
Spells beyond 640 and 120
Spiritual Lore: Blessing or Summoning
Magic Item Use and/or Arcane Symbols
Spiritual Mana Control

Post Cap Goals
2x Dodge
2x Physical Fitness
Combat Maneuvers
Additional Spell Research

Spell Research Goals
Ranger spells straight up to 640 by 40
Minor Spirit up to 120
Minor spirit to 125 or 130 (Voln members can skip 130 if they choose but might still wish to train 125 for opening boxes)

Playstyle Sniper vs Open
There are two widely accepted ways to play an archer ranger. The first is to try to remain in hiding and avoid being attacked while you pick off your foes. The other is to stand out in the open and use your spells to help disable your opponents or simply rely on the overwhelming efficiency of archery to keep you safe. Both have advantages and disadvantages we will discuss and neither is inherently wrong.

Sniper rangers train diligently in Stalking and Hiding to allow them to stay in the shadows. They benefit from Natural Colors (601) and Sneaking (617) helping them remain hidden and the +30 AS bonus from Camouflage (608) remaining active as long as they remain in hiding and don’t move. Provided they can remain hidden nothing can attack them. Firing a bow from hiding adds a +1 RT penalty to each shot but this penalty can be offset with enough Strength Bonus. Very experienced snipers will often forgo hiding against weaker enemies because it adds unnecessary time to their hunts.

Archer rangers who fire from the open get to save training points by not investing in hiding. These saved points can be put towards things like armor training, Magic Item Use, additional Spells or Combat Maneuvers in order to make the ranger a harder target. They tend to make more use of the ranger’s setup spells to disable their opponents. They essentially trade some of the safety of hiding for the hunting speed gained by not having to hide.


Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!

>I personally do not consider 1x dodge optional for an archer ranger. You might get away with it as a sniper but as a general rule you're making life harder on yourself than you have to.

Not really. 618 gives you 20 ranks of dodge and then one more each time you train in a Ranger Base (RB) spell past 18. So by training 5 dodge ranks before level 18 and then coasting on my 5 actual dodge ranks + 20 +(RB-18) effective dodge ranks until I hit level 40, I was able to save myself a pile of TPs when I was tight on them that I used to get the rest of my core training and a pile of SMC that are very useful. I started training in dodge again to keep at my above level effective dodge ranks when I switched from ranger to MnS at level 40 and I might continue to train in dodge when I switch back to RB after I get 130 and if I get to cap, I'll probably work myself up to 1x in actual Dodge, but at low and mid-levels, I don't think it's strictly necessary.

At any rate, if you're going to call 2x S&H optional for a ranged ranger because only snipers need it, but 1x Dodge mandatory because open rangers need it, this is a bit of a double standard.

>As for CMANs, I'm a sniper ranger and I didn't start training Shadow Mastery until after I finished 2x PF and Dodge post cap and I'm honestly considering giving it up for something like combat focus or cunning defense.

Really? I've started training a few ranks in CDEFENSE after getting SMASTERY done, but I really wouldn't trade the latter for the former. Once I mastered SMASTERY, everything just got so much better. You really can't beat one second sneaking. I can't imagine going back to 3 second movements between rooms while hunting.

>I picked up disarm in the 90s when getting disarmed by ithzir was becoming a real problem. The problem with Combat Maneuvers for archers is they don't get the AS/DS benefits from the skill itself, making it extremely costly for what we get out of it. Those points are better spent on things like other skills that provide more benefit until you get close to or past cap.

I definitely agree that suggesting low-level rangers 1x in CMANs is silly, but I started training SMASTERY to a threshold (e.g. training 3 levels at once to get one rank, then 6 at once for the next etc) as I was approaching level 40 and had it mastered by my late 40s. The benefit from the skill is definitely noticeable to me and I think it really improves my hunting.

I'm also pretty sure that you get the DS benefits, if not the AS ones (though I might be wrong).

I see where we differ on Shadow Mastery. You're sneaking room to room. I always run around and cast 608 or hide when I found something to pick a fight with. The sneaking RT doesn't matter to me at all.

For dodge you are essentially aiming for a baseline of 1x dodge with 618. I'm shooting for a baseline of 2x dodge when you add in 618. I'm curious what other archer rangers did but I couldn't wait to be 2x in dodge after cap and would never consider going below 1x trained. I'm not calling 1x dodge optional for hiders, I'm saying you can make the argument that if you hide your DS doesn't matter but I still personally disagree with it.

Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!

>a good sense of what each spell does

skill*, not spell. Did I mention that it's almost 5 am? Ugh.

Sorry folks...the wife and I have been out of town all week. I'll take a look at the guide tomorrow AM.

General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq

Empires exist through conquest, they live on by exercising total control of the conquered.

Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato

This is turning out to be quite a lot of work. It's getting there, though. I'll start on the skill training stuff in a day or two.

The whole guide is still very much a rough draft (I have some notes about things I want to adjust and readjust), but I'm interested in opinions thus far. Is anything there confusing or need more elaboration? Anything I missed entirely? Do you feel like it hits the mark where its intended audience is concerned (i.e. too complicated for new players)?

https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Ranger_Guide

What's new since the last post?
-What is a Ranger? written and revised by SARAH3
-The whole Character Creation module (spent a couple hours on stats today)
-Minor fixes and adjustments to organization and language all over

~Brian, Sepher's player

>I hate to point this out after you've already done all this work on the statistics section, but there's already a pretty reasonable overview of statistics in the main new player guide ( https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/New_Players%27_Guide#Stats ) and so far, you haven't said anything that's specific to rangers (indeed, much of it is a summary of the statistics page that you link).

Yeah. I've definitely seen that page and considered linking it. There are things I like about it and things I don't. So far, I like the way mine reads better, incomplete as it is.

>Instead of writing all that out, it should be sufficient to link to the main new player guide section on statistics and the main page on statistics. You can import the stat growth table for rangers, but you should use a transclusion instead of copying and pasting the text as you've done since a transclusion will result in a table that's consistent on all pages if something changes. I can go ahead and fix the transclusion if you'd like to keep that table on this page (or you can see an example of transclusion on the buff spells page here https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Buff_spells#Minor_Spiritual ).

This is definitely something I've argued a lot with myself over. Obviously, using transclusions are beneficial in certain circumstances (i.e. for topics I think are well explained, or simple enough), but not elsewhere. There is also the idea of making this as one-stop shop as possible. I want to keep the reader focused and following the direction I provide in the article without sending them all over the place and distracting them, or worse confusing them (considering the audience). I am frequently and purposefully including and excluding information based on this idea. I feel like the route I'm taking will result in a more successful guide once I smooth it out. I also think more than one perspective on many of the covered subjects (e.g. as opposed to everyone linking to the same character creation guide for stat info) is beneficial to players.

>Otherwise, I would look at what the paladin page has said so far about statistics, since I think it's very well done ( https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/A_beginner%27s_guide_to_playing_a_paladin#Important_Questions_to_Ask_Yourself ), you may note that it's pretty short (one paragraph) and concerns stat placement while linking to the more general overview of the individual statistics.

The paladin guide is far from what I envision for the ranger guide. I find it lacks detailed organization and glazes over a lot of things. I do like a lot about the training section, but I intend to go a little further. I am of the opinion that I have a good feel for what a guide should contain, as I have personally helped hundreds of players over the years do this sort of thing and am generally in tune with what people want to know (plus I train people for a living). Almost two decades of experience will do that for you.

Hopefully that helps clarify my intentions for you.

~Brian, Sepher's player

I am of the opinion that I have a good feel for what a guide should contain, as I have personally helped hundreds of players over the years do this sort of thing and am generally in tune with what people want to know (plus I train people for a living).

You train people in playing GS for a living? Really? How did you find that job?


hmm

Looks like he said he has personally helped hundreds of players over the years

(plus he trains people for a living) as in in the real world


not that he gets paid to train in gemstone

Hope that helps.

John

And before you reply taking sarcasm as serious commentary again: The last two sentences in my previous post were sarcastic. Just like the final series of questions in the post you commented on.

Ah, that is a fair point. I should not have made a joke at PENNINGTONB1's expense and for that, I apologize.

I will, however, point out that PENNINGTONB1 has effectively claimed on the discussion page for the article that no one is allowed to copy edit the text he contributed to the article (by the way, copy editing is actually one of my jobs) or modify its formatting to comply with community standards. He has also stated his intent to begin an edit war if anyone tries.

>My humble question is this. Why is this being brought to ranger boards where, we have been working on ranger guides? Seems like a wiki issue not a ranger development issue.

Given that the title of this thread is "GSWiki Ranger Guide" and the article being discussed is the Beginner's Guide to Playing a Ranger, it's definitely on topic to discuss issues that have arisen with the wiki article and its editing. If the collaboration on the wiki was proceeding in the spirit of actual collaboration, then we could spend time discussing what should be in this article in more detail. However, it is becoming increasingly clear that what gets discussed here is not going to be implemented in the article except as throw away aside at the end of a section, if at all (e.g. the build guides which have been shuttled off onto their own pages with minimal discussion after my initial question).

The point of the gswiki contest is to encourage collaboration and produce something useful for new players. The ranger guide will not be nearly as effective in assisting new players if we insist on filling it with information that is easily available elsewhere (especially when this information is available in places that new players are likely to come across before getting to the ranger guide).

>(goes back to hunting and working on a TWC ranger guide)

I sincerely hope that the TWC ranger guide is proceeding in more of a collaborative spirit. Good luck!