I'd vote for the claid, the enchant difference isn't that much and it is slightly cheaper to train THW then it is polearms. Claids are also a bit easier/faster to swing then lances. That is purely mechanical, each one would work well though and I'd suggest you go with which ever would fit the RP of your character better.

Also be aware that lances have a high probability of doing puncture damage versus a claid doing mostly crush/slash. There are a lot of creatures, especially undead, that are immune to punctures or resistant to them.


~Aulis
Forums Manager
QC'er

>I'd suggest you go with which ever would fit the RP of your character better.
TROUBLE13


I always pick RP over mechanics. Hoe anyone?


With that said, lances are going to be cheaper for TPs, which is going to help immensely when you consider you're already at an AS disavantage and are going to need to take advantage of spells more than a square or semi. The other factor is that lances are going to give you the cheaper route to higher AS (enchants, sanct), which is going to be important as you gain more levels.



-farmer

Thats about the selling value of a 2x claidh too. While I am personally not all that enamoured with lances due to their hefty RT requirements, this is a good opportunity for you to make a serious decision and end up with a highly valuable weapon no matter which path you take.

Paladins might be a better customer for a weapon of this sort, since paladins have zero difficultywith weapon AS;in fact they can get the hghest weapon AS of any profession in he game).

Throgg

---

False.

Dgry

Self spelled, bards are going to be up there too. Assuming they do something silly like 2x CM and max out targeting. Not sure who can do higher, especially if you count the ability to self-cast 117. At the least, paladins have an easier time of building a high AS build.

AIM: GS4Menos

>Here lies the formless world we´re living in
>Gravity is finally giving in
>High altitudes and still upward we go
>I was never meant to lead but to follow

At the least, paladins have an easier time of building a high AS build.

AIM: GS4Menos

---

This is true.

Dgry

600 AS is actually a very low number for a capped paladin. Menos is almost surely one of the lowest AS builds of any capped paladin. If anyone is lower, it is some crazy pure-casting build. Even so, his hunting AS is like 570 without any real effort. A more normal paladin build at the cap (using zealot, surge, and higher enchant gear) is likely to be in the 625-650 range with ease. The really committed folks using enhancives and scrolls are routinely north of 700 for a hunting AS. I can only imagine what they look like when maxed out for an invasion.

I am not sure how a warrior could reasonably in contention for highest AS, unless they are way post cap and using elemental targeting. Cman bonding, yelp, and sattack are about all they have that others do not have access to. That is not to say they are not masters of melee combat with the powerhouse that is the new berserk and all those Cmans.

Trying to stay somewhat on topic. Paladins are a great path for the old weapon using cleric players out there. It is a very different life, more like a warrior with a few cleric tricks, but it is sure lots of fun. If you are interested in playing one, feel free to drop me a line on AIM and I will help however I can.

AIM: GS4Menos

>Here lies the formless world we´re living in
>Gravity is finally giving in
>High altitudes and still upward we go
>I was never meant to lead but to follow

Warriors can also use coup and post cap it wouldn't be impossible for a warrior to have targeting if they wanted to sacrifice other skills first. It would be unlikely to see a warrior ever get the full bonus from 425 but +25 and up to +40 from coup is alot. Without question bards and paladins have the simplest training path for monstrous AS, though.

My vote also goes for the claid in terms of my personal RP, but lances for mechanics if you can swing them fast enough and get the enchant high enough. While I wish clerics could swing as hard as empaths or mages and want the bonus from 307 uncapped, 301 and 316 are so strong for setting up kills it would shift the balance too much in clerics advantage, imo. We are really great at melee for several levels but there is a point where other classes start to shine

Myddfai, I got your e-mail but for some reason I don't seem to have any way to reply to it. I'll try contacting your GS account address.

The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me

I cannot reply to your e-mail name; yahoo does not recognize it as a valid e-mail address. Sending message to your play.net address.

The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me

You can, of course, use whatever weapon you fancy. You can train in thrown weapons and chuck daggers at things if you so desire. However, if you want the most effective attack form, you will end up choosing between a lance and a mean THW. (High enchant maul vs claidh). Just be aware that clerics aren't the best pure class for using a weapon; mages are prime, empaths come next. OK, yes, I did get my cleric to cap using THWs, but weapons were hardly her most effective attack mode. By the time she was in her 90's, her mattock was more or less an afterthought.

The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me

>>1. However, if you want the most effective attack form, you will end up choosing between a lance and a mean THW. - false
2. Just be aware that clerics aren't the best pure class for using a weapon; mages are prime, empaths come next. - false
3. By the time she was in her 90's, her mattock was more or less an afterthought. - proves that #1 is false<<

OK, in what ways are my statements false? My mattock was one of those VHDW black ash mattocks. I did also have a 7x maul, however. Are you actually saying that clerics are better weapon users than mages or empaths? Put up some hard data to support this! Are you suggesting that OHE/OHB/shield is better than maul/lance? What planet are you living on?

Post cap, I changed my cleric to a pure caster. I left my warmage and warpath as THW users. Why? Because they were better suited to using weapons.

The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me

>> During the recent unpleasantness with the Lich king, all three of my capped characters (cleric, warmage, warpath) were able to hunt the top levels of the citadel (critters up to level 120).

Odd, you only showed clips of hunting the lower level of it. On the top floor though, the horrors had a very laughable defense. The knights had a DS of over 500 in most cases and the same with the apparitions. I had hunted up there a good bit with a voln cleric, he did rather well but also had max CS along with enhancives. But even with all that gear some of the apparitions weren't an autoward for him.

>>The most effective attack form for any pure at cap is spells, that's why're they're pures.<<

Oh for heaven's sake! I have never claimed otherwise! One of my oldest characters is a sorceress who hasn't touched a weapon since she was killing rats in the sewers at level 5. I never said using weapons was more effective ... well, actually, maybe for a warmage it is ... but rather it gives an alternate mode of attack. Useful vs the (admittedly rare) magic immune foe. Also more fun as a matter of style; weapon using "pure" professions are mutant builds. I have an empath who can use a focused MStrike. Do you know hopw many TPs I had to sink into that skill to achieve that result? It was like trying to fill up a black hole. But now she can use either a THW or a runestaff, depending on what the circumstances call for.

The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me

>>Odd, you only showed clips of hunting the lower level of it. On the top floor though, the horrors had a very laughable defense. The knights had a DS of over 500 in most cases and the same with the apparitions<<

Oh bah! You are actually correct; I don't have any logs saved from upper Citadel combat! Bloody heck! Now I am annoyed!

OK, it did help greatly that all my gals are Voln masters. Not sure I could have handled the level 120 guys otherwise, but a tower full of undead was basically dogmeat. With the Voln symbol review, Supremacy rules!

Yes, the death knights were a pain if you were trying to hit them with weapons. My cleric is now a pure, as noted, so symbol of Holiness followed by 301 and then a maximum charged cast of 312 was her usual method of attack. They had pretty much nothing to say after that. My empath's spell CS was a mere 470, so she usually used symbol of Holiness, followed by 117 and a weapon strike. Wither (spell 1115) works ok vs NCU, btw, assuming you can ward them. My mage did have some problems; she usually left the death knights alone, just because their physical DS was high and she had trouble feinting them. But she did kill a couple; she has a strange spell training pattern. She is trained for maximum CS in the MnE circle, purely for using spell 415. Her MnE CS is well over 500, and she was able to hit a number of the beggers with that spell, whereupon her hunting partners finished them off.

The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me

>Assuming thws, if you go by AS alone, empaths are in the lead, mages second, clerics last.

I like how Sorcerers are so bad they don't rank on the list. So sad.

wha-whaaaaaaa
________________________________
>Barnom exclaims, "I smell delicious!"
>Barnom says, "Like sage and nutmeg.

>"Walkar says, "Yes, too many kings never work. Especially when there's only one throne. It's a wicked game."
>Shameless plug.

>>Your post should have read that they're so bad they aren't even worthy of being played by Throgg. Since, you know, that's where the list in this thread originated from in the first place, Throgg's characters.<<

Bah! You haven't been paying sttention! Cross post alert (from the socrerer folder)!

>>Warcerers! Yay!

OK, this has to be the stupidest character I have ever created, but what the heck ...

>>incant 702
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Mana Disruption...
Your spell is ready.
You channel at an arch wight.
CS: +105 - TD: +60 + CvA: -12 + d100: +3 == +36
Warded off!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
R>
An arch wight gestures at you!
The arch wight's armor prevents the spell from working.
R> incant 702
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Mana Disruption...
Your spell is ready.
You channel at an arch wight.
CS: +105 - TD: +60 + CvA: -12 + d100: +95 == +128
Warding failed!
A very painful blow.
... 20 points of damage!
Chest spasm makes it hard for the arch wight to breathe.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
R>
An arch wight runs south.
R> stance off
You are now in an offensive stance.
> s
[Under Barrow, Shaft]
The ground here is partially frozen into a slippery, nasty slush. A damp chill causes moisture to run down the walls making your footing uncertain. The handholds on the wall are slick and muddy from the moisture. You also see an arch wight.
Obvious exits: north, up
> at
You swing a vultite flamberge at an arch wight!
AS: +144 vs DS: +94 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +32 = +114
... and hit for 3 points of damage!
Quick feint to the arch wight's right foot.
Little extra damage.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
R>
An arch wight swings a falchion at you!
AS: +146 vs DS: +96 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +23 = +107
... and hits for 2 points of damage!
Near-miss!
Knuckles kissed but little damage.
R> at
You swing a vultite flamberge at an arch wight!
AS: +144 vs DS: +72 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +95 = +199
... and hit for 23 points of damage!
Slash to the arch wight's shield arm.
Strike trims off a few fingernails.

Your vultite flamberge sprays forth a shower of pure water!

... 5 points of damage!
Splash to chest runs off before it does worse than blister the skin.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
R> at
You swing a vultite flamberge at an arch wight!
AS: +144 vs DS: +71 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +39 = +144
... and hit for 10 points of damage!
Weak slash to the arch wight's right arm.
That doesn't even sting.

Your vultite flamberge sprays forth a shower of pure water!

... 10 points of damage!
Splash to chest runs off before it does worse than blister the skin.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
R>
You feel at full magical power again.
R>
An arch wight chants an evil incantation.
R> incant 702
An arch wight gestures at you!
The arch wight's armor prevents the spell from working.
>
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Mana Disruption...
Your spell is ready.
You channel at an arch wight.
CS: +105 - TD: +60 + CvA: -12 + d100: +94 == +127
Warding failed!
A very painful blow.
... 15 points of damage!
The arch wight doubles over with stomach cramps.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
>
An arch wight runs north.
R> n
[Under Crypt, Tunnels]
These tunnels are dank and chill, your breath forms clouds of steam in front of you as you walk along. You also see an arch wight.
Obvious exits: north, east, south
> at
You swing a vultite flamberge at an arch wight!
AS: +144 vs DS: +91 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +4 = +89
A clean miss.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
R>
An arch wight swings a falchion at you!
AS: +126 vs DS: +96 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +79 = +143
... and hits for 19 points of damage!
Stomach shot lands with a hollow thump.
>
You swing a vultite flamberge at an arch wight!
AS: +144 vs DS: +84 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +17 = +109
... and hit for 2 points of damage!
Close shave!
The arch wight takes a quick step back.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
R> at
You swing a vultite flamberge at an arch wight!
AS: +144 vs DS: +84 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +98 = +190
... and hit for 23 points of damage!
Jarring blow to the arch wight's back.
You hear a sound like a weeping child as a white glow separates itself from the arch wight's body as it rises, disappearing into the heavens.
The arch wight falls to the ground motionless.<<
Roundtime: 5 sec.<<

OK, A giantkin Voln Sorceress using THWs. This is wrong in so many ways. Can you say "mutant"? I knew you could!

Weapon using sorcerers really do suck though ...


The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me

>>Say it slowly and all together now....Cleric....Folder. Please return all sorcerer sucking comments, swinging or otherwise, to the proper place.<<

If you recall, the entire thread started out as a concern about weapon using clerics and what weapons might best befit them. The comparison with other "pure" professions using weapons then popped up. I see no discontinuity there in comparing professions. Of the four professions considered "pures", IMO clerics come in third, barely edging out sorcerers, when it comes to using melee weapons.

The big problem is that the clerical spell that buffs weapon AS, 307, caps at a bonus of +15 for weapons, while rising to cap at level when applied to bolt spells. For some unknown reason, the cleric GM decided to limit a cleric's facility with melee weapons, while the empath designer decided to let them go crazy with them. This despite the fact that the cleric has a much cheaper TP cost for training with the things.

This is purely considering profession specific weapon buffs; creative use of other professional spells can offset this disadvantage to some degree, and has not been considered here.


The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me

>>the reason why the new additional bonus is spell aim only in nature is because clerics are pures, if the new bonus was applied to general AS it would only encourage more clerics to use weapons which isn't the intent<<

Precisely! Yet the cheap cost of weapons training for clerics would lead you to expect the intent was the opposite.

The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me