very simple for my pickpocket, if caught...

RP RP RP RP

also, offer victim a choice of their valuables back in exchange for no accuse, it leaves plenty of room to form a different situation, and probably as designed, leaves it up to the PLAYERS to work it out.

you can accuse me, but you won't get anything back and i'll probably rob ya more

OR

You can take back your gems and NOT accuse me, we'll RP a bit, and i'll probably never try to rob again from that player as I've been caught once, no fun anymore (unless its someone I love to RP pickpocket from)

PP is not so much for monetary gain (though you can really get someone who's gone to sleep with their pouches open) as it is for an opportunity to RP.

The end.

>I think the system should give back everything stolen from the victim and then base the fine on how much was taken. Say 10x the value of the stolen goods.

>It would make thieves think twice about stealing someone blind. ~ MaxmanJ

This system is already in place Josh, each time you are caught pickpocketing, murdering, or endangering your fine most definately increases. I've had pickpocketing fines upwards of 100k. I still havent thought twice either :)

>I recall several years ago when I had just started my younger empath. I really wanted him to be a pure caster from the word go, but this was before the harm spell was instituted, so he was very dependent on wands. One night there was an alterer in the small park. I heard about it and went running in, wanting to get in line, and in the moment I forgot to close my wand harness. A bit later I noticed a thief steal a wand from me. I said something, and he gave back the wand and walked away. I then realized that it was the last of the 10-12 wands I had been carrying, and that my silvers were also gone. So my new character, the one I was having the most fun playing, was made basically unhuntable because some upper level thief stole me blind. Sure, I went and accused him. That did nothing for me. My character was still pretty much disabled in terms of hunting. It was a pretty rotten night of playing Gemstone for me. ~ DVDMORSE

Man, that's honestly no ones fault but your own. Holding a grudge for multiple years over 12 wands seems to be a bit unhealthy.

>Do you seriously think you're representative of the majority of thieves in this game? ~SILVERPHOENIX21

Pickpocketing is a dead skill, not many people have it at all. Unlike you I can not honestly speak for everyone, however from the myself and the numerous thieves i've hung out with over the years I've seen the thieves constantly try to work things out verbally and the victims simply attack without saying a word (by all means you dont owe me any explanation if you catch me stealing, you're free to act as you chose. I'm just stating i've seen alot more wrongs from the party you're defending than rights).

>Vyst later posted a log of him stealing from someone at least 20 times as well as others multiple times, unlike what a real pickpocket could or would do. My idea at least would force pickpocket to act like.........pickpockets. ~MaxmanJ

You seem really narrowed down on the concept that someone has to bump into you to lift something off you. Travellers in Europe that wear backpacks often come up missing multiple items, once they get the backpack open it's pretty much free game. I definately feel multiple pulls are completely realistic, considering you're defending someone careless enough not to close a container. Why would they be observant enough to notice the second or third pull?

Thank you, have a wonderful day.

Mark/Leash

>>I think the system should give back everything stolen from the victim and then base the fine on how much was taken. Say 10x the value of the stolen goods.

>>It would make thieves think twice about stealing someone blind. ~ MaxmanJ

>This system is already in place Josh,

Seeing as how the victim does not get any of his stuff back under the current system...no, this system is not already in place.

>each time you are caught pickpocketing, murdering, or endangering your fine most definately increases. I've had pickpocketing fines upwards of 100k.

That's not what he said. He said fines based, prohibitively so, on the total value of the items taken from the victim. You steal a dozen emeralds from someone and get caught on the last one, you do not face a 500k-1m fine.

>I still havent thought twice either :)

Clearly the system doesn't work then. Which I believe was the whole point.

>Man, that's honestly no ones fault but your own.

Yeah, it was totally irresponsible of him to shove that thief's hand into his wand harness. Twelve times.

>Holding a grudge for multiple years over 12 wands seems to be a bit unhealthy.

Not once did he even intimate that he "held a grudge for multiple years". He said it was "a pretty rotten night of playing Gemstone", and I think that's completely reasonable given the circumstances.

Your "no one else's fun matters as long as I'm having my own" mentality is pretty disgusting.

>Pickpocketing is a dead skill, not many people have it at all.

Numbers?

>Unlike you I can not honestly speak for everyone,

I'm going off the same information as you: firsthand and anecdotal evidence from acquaintances.

>You seem really narrowed down on the concept that someone has to bump into you to lift something off you. Travellers in Europe that wear backpacks often come up missing multiple items, once they get the backpack open it's pretty much free game. I definately feel multiple pulls are completely realistic, considering you're defending someone careless enough not to close a container. Why would they be observant enough to notice the second or third pull?

GS != RL. If it were, you'd be spending a lot more time in jail. Staring at bars. Not having any fun. Imagine that.

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Since no one has bothered to bring it up this time around, let me be the one. All of this aside, being stole from is not fun for some people. It doesn't matter what kind of "potential RP" might come out of it. The feeling of violation can really suck for some players, and this is something you do not take into account whatsoever with your behavior. My character's RP might be to slaughter a known thief every single time he sees him, regardless of whether or not that thief has a chance of surviving the attack. If this weren't against policy, and someone decided to do it to you, that probably wouldn't qualify as "fun" for you, would it?

Pickpocketing is unique in this game in that it is the only form of CvC that does not require any kind of permission on the victim's part to engage in. There is no WARN THEFT (not that the WARN verb actually does anything...). It's just "the thief feels like doing it, so he can".

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One last thing. I've never had an issue with thieves on my main (bard), but because of the utterly self-entitled viewpoints expressed by some of the thieves around here, I made it a policy to always have my containers closed. I have macros for stowing, retrieving, and looking in all my containers, and each one opens the container, performs the action, and then closes the container. That...is a lot of unnecessary scroll. Particularly in a public place, like the pawnshop, alchemist, or especially the locksmith. It's three times as much scroll for each of those actions as it should be, all because someone might decide to stick his or her hand where it doesn't belong. Personally, I can deal with the scroll; I know exactly what's happening. But I imagine it's quite an annoyance for the other people in the room.

<< This system is already in place Josh, each time you are caught pickpocketing, murdering, or endangering your fine most definately increases. I've had pickpocketing fines upwards of 100k. I still havent thought twice either :)>>

First, it's not EXACTLY the fine formula I stated. Second, it doesn't go to the victim like I suggested. It's a minor change, but if the victim got everything back plus a bonus when the thief was caught, it would lessen the hard feelings for theft. It wouldn't eliminate it, but it would lessen it.

Josh

<< That's not what he said. He said fines based, prohibitively so, on the total value of the items taken from the victim. You steal a dozen emeralds from someone and get caught on the last one, you do not face a 500k-1m fine. >>

Yep. However, if you take those dozen emeralds from a dozen different people, the fine would only be 25-50k.

Josh

>It also isn't thief-proof. You need to move the container to an unstealable location before you open it. <RATHBONER>

1. What do you mean by that?
2. "Always keep your containers closed" is the perpetual mantra of victim-blaming thieves around here, touting it as "100% effective".

>>Also, please demonstrate our victim blaming attitude.--Keleborrn, post 7720

>>Man, that's honestly no ones fault but your own.--Leash, post 7709

Well, that was easy.


--David

"At a moment like this, I can't help but wonder, 'What would Jimmy Buffett do?'"

I forgot to hit post about an hour ago >.>

Just a question. How many ranks of PP would I need to be sure to get busted.
I trying gag to use my thief skills as role-play, and I want my marks to see me, but I also want to get the "wand," so to speak.
This is for sitting at a table, pulling friendly pranks and sleight of hand like tricks. As I can't pull silvers out of an ear, I will build off the pocket. (wonder if I could get a scripted coin for that sort of thing?)

Is PP level based? How much does one need to be "bad" at lifting items?


Ack! Scarab!

<<Is PP level based? How much does one need to be "bad" at lifting items?>>

As far as I know the only level based part is the fact that you can't steal from level 0 or level 1 characters. Unless that's been changed.

I'd bet if you had 10 ranks would be a good place to start if you're trying to be been seen but not grabbed fairly regularly (the worst failure is the one where they grab your wrist).

It's going to depend on how many ranks in PP and perception they have though, and how many people are around, and a bunch of other things. It'll be hard to do on command.

-Keleborrn.

interesting to note, on the post about making this a rogue only teach skill (like sorcerer sacrifice), one the ways to prevent being pickpocketed (WHEN YOU LEAVE CONTAINERS OPEN) is to train in pickpocketing. Two of my oldest friends who also happen to be pures, often times pickpocket my rogue (who is fully singled to prevent that sort of thing) for the fun of it, and I don't catch them everytime.

Also, PP isn't going anywhere and my evidence comes from;
a) trap components & demons & farmers gremlin head(those that can harm the pickpocket)
b) gambits (why would the rogue guild even want half these skills as they are to move objects silently?
c) gremlins and other critters do it
d) fun and profit! (I was able to pickpocket Walkar while he was defending town for 138 coins, now thats FUN!)
e) repeeated attempts on one target get more and more difficult (train in perception if NOT PP, you'll catch someone)


To those that like it (from both thief and mark) its a great skill and fun to play with, but not to get rich off of, to those that don't, keep your container's closed and don't hunt gremlins either (but why whine about 12 wands 12 years later?)

PS, at least they removed the drag the corpse off into the woods and wait for him to decay before so you can loot everything on them, right?!

>>why whine about 12 wands 12 years later<<

Like I said ... want lessons on how to hold a grudge? Steal 12 wands from me ... I kill you 12 times. Seems a fair trade :)



"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"

"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."

<<Like I said ... want lessons on how to hold a grudge? Steal 12 wands from me ... I kill you 12 times. Seems a fair trade :)>>

Unless they're 12 separate incidents of stealing, I think you're going to run afoul of policy on that one, just so you know...

-Keleborrn.

<<Like I said ... want lessons on how to hold a grudge? Steal 12 wands from me ... I kill you 12 times. Seems a fair trade :)>>

<< Unless they're 12 separate incidents of stealing, I think you're going to run afoul of policy on that one, just so you know... -Keleborrn. >>

Unless things have changed a great deal, the thief will have had to STEAL 12 separate times.

Josh

>This is for sitting at a table, pulling friendly pranks and sleight of hand like tricks. As I can't pull silvers out of an ear, I will build off the pocket.

Train enough ranks in gambits and you can do these sorts of things.

show of hands/vote

a) i've looted the hell outta a newb! I can totally find a use for all these turnips!
b) i've carefully stalked someone who recently became lord and took a few choice gems! I R the sneakiest!
c) i use pickpocket recklessly to pilfur from the most outspoken, I love to start a fight!

vote any combination or don't vote at all, who's countin anyway?

Ps: a vote for a) is only valid if the newb isn't a known MA'er who's totally lockered 499 gems and a backpack

<< You know, Josh, as I recall, you do not live more than about twenty minutes from me. I can still hunt you down. :) >>

And as I recall, you teach. What are you going to do when you hunt me down? Give me a lecture? ;)

Seriously though, if you're that close to me, we should get together for lunch some time.

Josh

That would be awesome. Then you guys could have a good cry over how unfair pickpocketing is together.

My only engagement on this question will be to discuss the following:

>I just do not understand the mentality that makes it fun for you to make the game less fun for other players.

Although Nuadjha already provided a good reference, I think it may be lost in the din.

While some people may prefer a security blanket respite from real life, others prefer a more visceral experience which offers more "danger". THIS is the attraction to GS theft, both for the thief and the mark, or victim, choose your connotative vantage point.

Why did the player choose to send out their carefully-built (maybe not-so-carefully) characters out into the wilds of GS to hunt down the big bad golem?

"To get to the other side", or, more apropos, to feel a thrill of danger and subsequent achievement. That takes many forms depending on the player, but ultimately the point of this game is to provide an experience in which a player, through their character, achieves success over adversity.

Repeat. Reread. That's the entirety of this game.

Again - this takes many forms. The hunter of beasts enjoys overcoming a creature out in the field through their training in combat. A thief enjoys overcoming a different sort of adversity - and as has been noted (and mostly ignored or derided), a very real sort.

To ignore one type of enjoyment, and in effect dismiss a player demographic, for the sole benefit of another, shows an inherent bias that really cheapens the game for many people. Players such as Nuadjha's and others enjoy that grit, revel in the added adversity that is there to be overcome.

Overcome it. Players of those who have been victimized by theft, respond as you see fit. Add grit to this mimicry of life. Kill a thief if it suits you, roleplay with them and get an item or gem back, whatever. Acknowledge the skill - I know, I KNOW there are players who do not use PP as a skill, but rather as a bludgeoning tool. I don't like this, but it's critical that people recognize that there is value there too. Overcome it. Accept griefing characters of all kinds as part of the grit. You can figure out a way to overcome that adversity too, just like you figured out how to take down the golem. Don't forget that there are people who use PP in other, more refined ways, and remember that there's value in offering that adversity.

Players of thieves who get caught and immediately killed, why get pissed off about the lack of RP? Either revel in that adversity and steal from that character as much as you can get away with, or if it's not your flavor, stick to the marks that are more your type.

Use this - don't try to take away from a world, add to it. Complaining about a skill simply says "I can't do it - I can't beat this challenge."

Bull. It's too easy to give up that way.

-Anorian

"...And a thousand thousand slimy things
Lived on; and so did I."

>Many times, you wont even know you've been robbed. There is no "thrill" other than you notice the next time you try to hunt your ring is gone, or your small statue is gone, or your herb is gone. There is no thrill in that.

Completely misunderstood. The thrill is the sense of omnipresent danger. Of course you don't know the moment you've been robbed. You know that, at all times, you MIGHT be.

"At all times" is of course completely incorrect given current crowd-based and other theft mechanics, but that's part of a different facet of this discussion.

>It isn't a matter of "I can't do it." It is a matter of, "I don't want to be forced to do it. I don't have the means, or am not willing to expend the time and resources to mount a response to this challenge. I get nothing out of this challenge and never will."

So you get something out of applying overwhelming force to earn your character experience and/or cashmoneys, but prefer not to have the same applied to your character, because you want the game to be fun for you.

Broaden your scope. Everyone wants to be able to enjoy themselves. Rather than restricting an environment to a set of parameters under which only a certain group can manage this, leave the environment open for all forms of "fun", and let people choose to segment it themselves. There are ways to accomplish fun in the context of theft for those who would rather it didn't exist, using current game mechanics.

Unless, of course, your preference is to allow no theft on principle, in which case, hooray for your tolerance of other meanings of "fun".

-Anorian