Two strikes, two double flares, and one incanted 1615 on one target for 305 damage with 5 sec RT. I've bolded a typo in there for whomever may be concerned.


You concentrate intently, focusing all your energies.

You explode into a fury of strikes and ripostes, moving with a singular purpose and will!

You swing a double bit eonake handaxe at a decaying bone soldier!

AS: +429 vs DS: +271 with AvD: +41 + d100 roll: +27 = +226

... and hit for 49 points of damage!

You ripped a chunk out of the bone soldier's left leg with that one.

The bone soldier is stunned!


** As your eonake handaxe hits, it sends a surge of power through you that quickly leaps out at the soldier!

A pillar of gold and topaz radiance manifests around a decaying bone soldier.

CS: +327 - TD: +198 + CvA: +1 + d100: +93 == +223

Warding failed!

Waves of sacred energy tear through the bone soldier's body!

... 63 points of damage!

... 40 points of damage!

Stunning arc of electricity fuses left arm at elbow.

The bone soldier is driven to its knees!


** Your eonake handaxe pulsess with a burst of plasma energy! **

... 15 points of damage!

Minor burns to the bone soldier's weapon arm.



** Your eonake handaxe sprays with a burst of plasma energy!

... 10 points of damage!

Pinpoint strike sears the bone soldier's chest.


You swing a double bit eonake handaxe at a decaying bone soldier!

AS: +429 vs DS: +189 with AvD: +41 + d100 roll: +51 = +332

... and hit for 93 points of damage!

The bone soldier groans in agony as its bones crack under the force of the blow!


** Your eonake handaxe pulsess with a burst of plasma energy! **

... 10 points of damage!

Light burns to the bone soldier's leg.


** Your eonake handaxe sprays with a burst of plasma energy!

... 25 points of damage!

Dazzling arc of energy traces blackened path across the bone soldier's back!


You hear a sound like a weeping child as a white glow separates itself from the bone soldier's body as it rises, disappearing into the heavens.

The bone soldier struggles to rise to its feet, but soon lies still.


Your series of strikes and ripostes leaves you winded and out of position.

Roundtime: 5 sec.

Chad, player of a few

1625 is a spell slot too!

-Marstreforn-
Icemule Trace Guru
Halfling Guru

>1625 is a spell slot too!
-Marstreforn-


Ok? And?

-farmer

The flares/abilities are a result of the 1625 spell effects on the weapon.

Technically, it's a Paladins' 25th rank spell effect, not a weapon's. The weapon is just the means of delivering the damage (and happens to do some of its own physical damage in the process).

What spell were you comparing it to, out of curiosity.

-Marstreforn-

>Thats not even the best damage per second clip!
Chad, player of a few


Since I know you're a new poster to the Paladin board Mars, (and likely new to overall Paladins profession issues,) and since I know Nouvard is just returning to the game and newish to Paladins too, I'll explain.


I'm not talking about the weapon in his paste. I'm well aware of what's happening in that clip, and also well aware of what spell 1625 does (as well as 1615, and even the similiar 1630). I'm referring to the inferior infused spell ability Paladins have versus the far FAR superior Blink weapons.

It's this inferior ability that's displayed in the paste and what I commented on and a subject that's come up often over the years. Here and other places.

-farmer

"the far FAR superior Blink weapons." -- Farmer

Mind you, they are Auction-grade weapons. So they're gonna be Pretty Darn Good.

.

.

(With that said, I agree that the infusion for 1625/Sanctify is pretty much Teh Suckage.)

The built-in flares aren't worth it, either. I got crit-weighting added to my bonded blade instead, going for the damage impact every time as opposed to every few swings. Much more efficient.

As to infusing -- why bother? It's in serious need of re-working.

>It takes three seconds to infuse when you are going room to room looking for your next target. I even infuse between swings.
Nouvard

It takes three seconds of soft to cast too. Why would you rely on a random activation of a spell when you can cast it, whenever you want, wherever you want, on command? This doesn't seen very effective mana use or hunting strategy.

>Two big reasons why... no armor hindrance failure and no added casting RT.

First, I have never had issues with armor hinderance as a Paladin. Even before Fluidity was released, it wasn't an issue. Now WITH fluidity, it might as well not exist.

Second, you state that no added casting RT is an advantage, but 3 seconds of soft RT is... pretty much nothing? You spend at least a second or more going through the mechanical steps to infuse a spell. You might as well take that extra half second and cast the spell yourself. When you want to. Not randomly.

>Plus it will not fry your nerves if you forget that you are low on mana.

If you're running out/low of mana on your hunts, you're not activating the flare. Since it costs the same amount of mana when it fires off just as if you cast it. (It's also a pretty easy thing to keep track of how much mana you have. Especially as a Paladin.)


Ultimately, none of the advantages you see are worth the effort IMO (and good for you thinking so, but generally the spell goes pretty much unused for a majority of Paladins). The backloaded mana cost, repeated infusing and the random activations make it pretty much a wasted ability.

There are any number of things that could have been/be done to fix the spell, but I don't ever see it happening.

-farmer

Ultimately, none of the advantages you see are worth the effort IMO (and good for you thinking so, but generally the spell goes pretty much unused for a majority of Paladins). The backloaded mana cost, repeated infusing and the random activations make it pretty much a wasted ability.

-farmer

I cast 1615 when I need it in specific situations. With fluidity my hindrance is 8% currently. I've had two or three casts in a row fail due to armor.

The three seconds you spend to infuse can be done between melees so it has no affect on your DPS. Unless you infuse again during melee which I do when I wait for my mstrike cooldown sometimes. Most times what I hunt is dead before I can get another infuse in. Sure it goes off randomly but you are getting all the damage from the spell added to all the damage of your weapon in the time it takes to swing the weapon.

I get that you do not like it but to me the only waste of this ability is not using it.

I only just recently discovered you can infuse in the field. For some reason I thought it had to be done in place you sanctified the weapon.

Chad, player of a few

>Sure it goes off randomly but you are getting all the damage from the spell added to all the damage of your weapon in the time it takes to swing the weapon.

This two statements together don't make any sense to me.

You purposefully only spend (cast) the 15 mana in specific situations, but you're OK with spending (casting) that same 15 mana randomly as long as it's from your weapon?

I also can't see the benefit of using a setup spell (which 1615 is) AFTER you swing. Wouldn't you rather purposefully force your target to kneel THEN swing? Instead of attacking it with your weapon and HOPE your infused 1615 goes off? (Especially considering you're using an OHE and doing minimal damage compared to a 2HD/Pole.) Your chances of killing it after a cast jumps considerably when compared to infused casting after you swing. And all for the same mana cost.

Being specific about what I hunt will help explain.

Before I go into the hunting area I do four things. Drink pure potion, wield weapon and shield which are both enhancive and causes my max stamina to go up, then I cast 1607, then I infuse 1615 into my weapon. So the infused 1615 is there regardless of what I encounter. I think of it as an extra self mana flare. I use 1615 because one of the three things I encounter is immune to 110. Otherwise I would think of it as a self mana unbalance flare.

Of the three things I encounter only one falls fast to a 1615/ambush head. When fighting that one of course I cast 1615 as the set up to get it to kneel then ambush the head. The infused 1615 is still in the weapon so that if the ambush does not crit kill at least it might flare to finish it off from pure damage. The only effort on my part was a 3 second prep 1615/infuse handaxe before I even entered the hunting area.

If I crit kill that one the infused is still in there as one hell of a heavy duty flare for the next battle. After I loot I reinfuse. I have a macro set up for it.

>I get that you do not like it but to me the only waste of this ability is not using it.

This is kind of rigidly silly. Just because it's available doesn't mean other available options aren't better.

-farmer

I don't understand your statement. What better options are available? Are you saying its better not to use the infusing function of 1625 than using it? That is what seems rigidly silly. All you guys harping on about how the infuse part of 1625 sucks and will never use it are really missing out.

I am training in summoning so I can infuse 1615. Every paladin can infuse 110 I believe. What I can't believe is that I have gone all this time NOT infusing at least 110 when I first learned it. Maybe its because all this time I have been hearing all you old timers say it sucks and is not worth using.

Would I like to have more options about what I infuse? Sure.

Chad, player of a few

<All you guys harping on about how the infuse part of 1625 sucks>

Like I said, I think the idea is a great one, but I think having to infuse after every flares is very tedious. I think your macro is a good idea for making the process a little easier, I might even try it out to see if it changes my mind at all. I don't disagree with you that I am missing out on potential damage by not using infuse, however with a very high AS and the ability to smash a critter's heads to bits in one shot, I guess I just don't really need it. I think some of this discussion comes down to hunting styles and preferences as well. I tend to like to use combat manuevers (shield bash, feint) in order to setup enemies for a headshot. Other paladins like yourself may prefer a magical approach. Thats cool and I appreciate the uniqueness of that hunting style.

Absolutely. Hunting styles are different I would say more out of what it is you hunt and what is effective against what you hunt rather than a predetermined decision to only hunt one way. I've got sbash and feint which I used more at lower level. Where I am now I find them less effective. That may change when I change hunting area. At level 70 I never use "at critter" any more. It is either mstrike, ambush, or cast.

<I am training in summoning so I can infuse 1615.>

How much training do you plan on putting into summoning? Is there a reason other than infusing that you are training in it?

I trained summoning to increase the targets of 1630 knowing that it would benefit other areas as well. I may stop at 150 bonus to be able to hit 6 targets with 1630. Then work on another lore and mana control.

<Would I like to have more options about what I infuse? Sure.>

I think that we can all agree that it would be nice see 1625 reviewed and potentially tweaked to address some of the concerns that have been raised in this discussion. Whether it be more options of spells to infuse, or a longer duration.

With CCF coming up I thought about asking for a wearable rechargeable trinket one could "invoke" from. Maybe "invoke" could be added as an activator verb for magic item creation?

Chad, player of a few

>So the infused 1615 is there regardless of what I encounter. I think of it as an extra self mana flare.

Which means it may or may not be 15 mana usefully spent. Not to mention, 1615 is always available. Because you can cast it.

You missed the part where I said I use 1615 as a set up when I need to. Infusing 1615 does not replace casting it when you should. Not by any stretch. But if you have the mana, and I do, you can have it in your weapon to go off without RT or being hindered by armor.

I'd rather infuse/swing with the randomness factor than swing, cast, swing, cast with the possibility of armor hindrance getting in the way. It takes way longer to go that way anyway.

>I use 1615 because one of the three things I encounter is immune to 110.

This is why you see and notice hinderance then.

Side Tangent1: Do you also cast Faith's Clarity to get that 110 (or any other 100's circle spell) to fire off?

Side Tangent2: I never found 110 more effective than 1615.

Hindrance affects me with fluidity 8% of the time on my paladin spells. I see it all the time. When I want to set up a Spirit Strike you bet I use Faith's Clarity to make sure its successful. Even

You point out another benefit with infusing. You can infuse 110 in your weapon bypassing the cast so there isn't 98% hindrance or whatever it is. When it fires off your weapon it won't be hindered either.

>The only effort on my part was a 3 second prep 1615/infuse handaxe before I even entered the hunting area.

Here's the thing though.. You are still spending 15 mana when the infused flare goes off after you hit the target with your weapon. Instead of using that 15 mana as the setup it's supposed to be (not a plink away direct damage spell) and making that target prone (and possibly stunned), causing your chances of one killing it quicker to go up exponentially.

1615 is a good setup spell. It also does great damage and has some good crits. I've crit killed with one cast of 1615 many times. So it does all these things well. Again, when I want it as a set up I use it as a set up. Otherwise I love it as a major damage/disable self mana flare. It is random. So are plasma flares.

>I don't understand your statement. What better options are available? Are you saying its better not to use the infusing function of 1625 than using it? That is what seems rigidly silly. All you guys harping on about how the infuse part of 1625 sucks and will never use it are really missing out.

The better option is casting the spell on purpose. Hoping for a random infused cast of a setup spell to be useful is not the best option. This isn't rigidity. It's knowing (and in the case of many Paladins, choosing) the most effective (quicker, more useful, etc) way of killing. Rigidity is believing you have to use a spell because it's there, not because it's the most effective.

See above. When I want to cast it on purpose I do. I'd rather infuse/swing/flare than swing/cast/swing/cast with the possibility of hindrance.

>Would I like to have more options about what I infuse? Sure.

The spell options for infusing isn't the issue. It's how infuse works period. See Blink weapons for how it should have been done. Hell, I'll settle for something similar if not an exact copy.

I took a look at blink weapons and it looks like 1625 with teleport ability. The list of spells you can use is interesting. Considering how rare that weapon type is I think it is pretty awesome we get something close to that with 1625.

>Hunting styles are different I would say more out of what it is you hunt and what is effective against what you hunt rather than a predetermined decision to only hunt one way.

This discussion has been about the (lack of) effectiveness of an infused spell versus a (more effective) direct casted one. Not 'predetermined' hunting styles. (Which I would argue this doesn't even fall into.)

I would not disagree with that. You can direct cast any time you want. Prep/cast 3 seconds gets you 1615 damage, crits, and kneeling. But an infused 1615 on just a basic attack can result it swing/flare/flare 5 seconds plus the damage, crits, and kneeling without fear of hindrance.

I figured out why we disagree now.

>if the ambush does not crit kill at least it might flare to finish it off from pure damage.

This ^ is the crux of it. Specifically, you're relying on the infused 1615 to do damage, not as the setup spell it's designed to be.

By hitting the target with your weapon first, you have the chance of damaging it, stunning, knocking it to kneeling/prone, a combination of the previous or even killing it. A direct cast of 1615 can do the same thing. By having the flare activate after you swing, you're loosing the advantages of the spell (and really all of our spell list since we don't have an intended direct damage spell) and making your weapon attack less effective.

Again, see above. I do cast 1615 when I need to use it as a set up.

I think your issues are that it uses mana, is random, and that you see 110 and 1615 as set ups. I do not have the same issues. I think its great to get a non-hindered shot of 1615 in on a 3 strike mstrike with the possibility of double plasma flares thrown into it all within the RT of the swing. 1615 does decent damage and crits plus has the chance to make targets kneel.

If Paladins had a spell list that didn't consist of setup spells (even counting 110 which is also one, considering the damage table), and instead had a direct damage only spell, you and everyone else might have a reason to argue that infused casting is effective. Since we don't, infused casting is always going to be slower and less effective.

-farmer

I would encourage people to try it. Using it will not adversely affect a paladin. If the paladin has the mana to keep up with it it will increase your damage output over time.

Chad, player of a few

>However, I'm also a very heavy spell casting paladin. I'm at 40/40 with spells, and am only now adding lores post-cap (mostly blessing at this point)
SMAHSH


This is at cap?

What's your mana at?

(This doesn't seem very spell heavy)

-farmer

>I'd rather infuse/swing with the randomness factor than swing, cast, swing, cast with the possibility of armor hindrance getting in the way.
Nouvard

This where we differ too.

I'd rather spend that mana wisely than waste it (and random is always a waste over purposeful).

I also cast a large amount as well and have zero hinderance issues.


>It is random. So are plasma flares.

This is also an ability that a minority of Paladins use. Random isn't a good thing. I know you believe it is, but really, it's not.

>I took a look at blink weapons and it looks like 1625 with teleport ability.

Just.. no. Absolutely, 100% incorrect.

The only thing similiar is it holds a spell. That's the entirety of it's similarity to Paladin infuse.

>I think its great to get a non-hindered shot of 1615 in on a 3 strike mstrike with the possibility of double plasma flares thrown into it all within the RT of the swing.

I guarantee you that your same exact build would be faster, more efficient and deal more damage without a single infused spell and without plasma flares.


>I would encourage people to try it. Using it will not adversely affect a paladin. If the paladin has the mana to keep up with it it will increase your damage output over time.

Wasted mana can be extremely adverse. There's a reason that Paladins should keep a mana reserve and not for being randomly turned into direct damage spells. Additionally, using that same mana for a direct cast would increase that damage output more.

-farmer

Paladins are 0.25 by design? That can't be right. Monks are 0.4

Level 71 with 61 spell ranks total here.

Chad, player of a few

>You call it a waste of mana. I consider it a wise use of mana considering it can only fail on a fumble and has 0 RT attached.

If you considered it wise, you'd never cast a direct spell. Ever. You'd only rely on infused spells.

If I have the mana sitting in reserve, and I am not low, why not use it as a badass flare that has all the benefits of 1615 without the hindrance and RT? You seem to be convinced that I do not cast when I need to. I cast it regularly when I want it's specific effect whether it is trying to get a kneeling set up or finishing off an undead that might vaporize before I can loot it.

1615 is not an automatic success set-up only spell. There is chance of fumble and armor hindrance and when you get past those two things there is still a limited chance at a kneel. Just today I used 1615 to try to get something to kneel and had to cast it three times before I gave up and mstriked it to death.

>How? And how do you measure?

You really don't know how to measure speed and damage and relate that to efficiency?

If these are foreign concepts to you, and from your question it appears they are, than I wish you every success in your combat.

One suggestion that you should take away with you though: Stock up on deeds.

-farmer

I ask you how you measure so we might compare. I know for myself that I have seen an increase in damage over time when using infused 1615. You want to know how much tell me how to measure it and I will provide that info.

If you just want to criticize/lecture/ridicule/dismiss without offering anything constructive then save us both the time.

Chad, player of a few

>I ask you how you measure so we might compare.

How do you measure speed and damage?

.. are you really asking how you measure this?

Tell me you're not.

-farmer

How much damage in one swing? 10 swings? Damage over 30 seconds? 5 minutes? Average per second of a hunt? Exp per hour?

Name it.

Chad, player of a few

It's been a long week, so I'm just going to respond to several things in this thread in one post.

Paladins are expected to be trained to .75x in spells as average. Having 80/100 is above average at 100, but only slightly. Menos is what I'd consider heavily trained in spells (something like 160?), but to get to his level requires a lot of post cap TPs.

Farmer and Chad
You two are having a poor conversation because your coming from completely different levels. At one level, you're both 100% correct in your statements, in another you're about 50%. So let me attempt to bridge the gap.

Chad
Yes, the way you're using 1615 increases your DPS (if DPS is defined strictly as measured only while actively engaged in combat and not factoring in travel to and from engagement). Yes, having an infused spell fire and land more damage/killing blow on an otherwise not dead creature is leaps and bounds above not having that spell fire on the same swing.

Farmer
You're right, his strategy is lacking when compared to one that maximizes death blows. Unfortunately maximizing death blows is very quarry specific, and you're generalizing too much. He's also right in that you're being really critical without actually offering advice for improvement. I know you're passionate about having our spells improved, but we gain more support by educating our class, rather than misdirecting our anger at them when they don't see the flaws we do.

Chad,
From the sound of it your current build is a ohe/b and shield build. Your strategy seems attrition based, so your goal is to bleed your prey out. If you're hunting noncorp (undead/golems/elementals) then it's fine, keep at it. If you're hunting anything crittable, then you should really reevaluate your strategy. The three seconds of hard RT you use to infuse a spell between fights reduces the time you spent engaged and adds an unpredictable element into your combat. An infused spell can fire off on the first swing, or ten minutes after you infuse it, and once it's infused you don't have any real way to cancel it. What that means is, you could find yourself 10 minutes into a fight with 35 mana left, swing, autocast, and get stunned/bound and be out of luck for using your most powerful ability. You could be fighting something that has 1 health left and will bleed out on the next round that you really don't want to waste mana on, but you're compelled to do it anyway. You actually end up removing options for yourself in combat because you always have to be aware that you could drop XX amount of mana at any point in time after the infusion.

Ask yourself this... Is the potential for a random flare worth giving up a needed 130, 1607, beseech, 1615, 117, 1630, or recasting a dispelled buff? Hindrance aside for a moment, if given the choice, would you rather spend your mana to kill the creature in front of you as quickly as possible on 75 AS, a disabler/death spell, or a 5% chance at getting a disabler/death spell?

Farmer's argument is that having the ability to choose your options in combat without hindering yourself with those choices is a more sound strategy. Especially if your hunting tactic revolves around death blows. When your strategy involves death blows, DPS is moot. Your damage calculations are reduced to the maximum RT it takes you to insure a killing blow. For paladins, that's usually insuring that your AS is high enough to guarantee a death blow to the head/neck against the creature's DS. That means opening with a setup (sbash, feint, 1615, charge, bullrush, disarm, 117, 1630, sometimes multiples) (average 3 seconds), and closing with an ambush or mstrike (average 6-8 seconds). Your overall strategy then becomes how to minimize the RT you spend on any given situation. Cast RT is better than hard RT because it still allows you options (ability to flee or find new targets), and guaranteed outcomes are better than randomized outcomes. A 100% successful feint is better than a 60% successful 1615, which is still better than a 60% successful hindrance-free 1615 that never fires.

Unfortunately, Farmer's strategy doesn't start at the hunt-level. It starts in the Character Manager. You have to pick skills that facilitate a killing blow lifestyle. Then you have to hunt things that facilitate a killing blow lifestyle, and then you have to execute a strategy that maximizes that potential.

Lastly, the people that have issues with the infusion portion of 1625, tend to have problems with the way it was implemented. We've offered suggestions on improvements (for 1625 and other spells) and haven't really gotten any feedback. What we have seen is our creative ideas taken for other systems/classes. Suggestions for 1625 were turned into auction weapons. Suggestions for 1650 were turned into voln symbols (see transcendence). Our spells have also gotten nerfed to compensate for other classes/societies abilities that were added when ours were perfectly balanced for years. We've had completely worthless spells since the creation of the paladin class, and all we tend to find on these class boards is a wall of silence. There is a lot of frustration and a lot of hard feelings floating around these parts. Occasionally, having no better outlet, we take stabs at anything that presents itself. Frustrated conversation still beats silence.

Dgry

Dgry,

Thanks for taking the time to post! It was helpful for me in better understanding the conversation and gave me some food for thought for my paladin.

-- Robert

Thanks for that post, Drgy.

From the sound of it your current build is a ohe/b and shield build. Your strategy seems attrition based, so your goal is to bleed your prey out. If you're hunting noncorp (undead/golems/elementals) then it's fine, keep at it. If you're hunting anything crittable, then you should really reevaluate your strategy.

A few posts back we discussed how what you are hunting will dictate your tactic. I use the set up/crit whenever I can. I've got feint, sbash, 110, 1614, 1615, singled in CM, perception just like every other paladin out there. This point is not lost on me. I've used 1615 as a finisher when hunting something that can possible vaporize before you loot it. I never use attack anymore. Either 1615, ambush, or mstrike.

This all started with a clip of an mstrike, of which only two strikes out of three were needed, to deal massive damage and death to a target with a 5 second RT. That happens rarely and is not how I base my hunting. It's just a pretty awesome shot that shows what an infused 1615 can do with a 1625 weapon with plasma flares. I think its pretty freaking awesome. Now it has devolved, unfortunately, into what I perceive as completely non-productive criticism of how I play and what I enjoy.

Ask yourself this... Is the potential for a random flare worth giving up a needed 130, 1607, beseech, 1615, 117, 1630, or recasting a dispelled buff? Hindrance aside for a moment, if given the choice, would you rather spend your mana to kill the creature in front of you as quickly as possible on 75 AS, a disabler/death spell, or a 5% chance at getting a disabler/death spell?

This is a good point. I have not had that problem. When mana starts to get low of course you would not want to infuse if you needed that mana somewhere else. But when I have mana sitting in reserve not doing anything while I swing I like the idea of it possibly being used for additional damage regardless if I am ambushing or mstriking without any hindrance or additional RT to the attack.

A way to release an infusion would be useful if someone were forgetful or careless about infusing. Also... some visual indicator that something is infused in the weapon or not. Like the blink weapon eye.

Lastly...

Dgry

Then maybe it is time to take a break and chill out. If you aren't happy then do something to change that. I do not say that with any animosity towards anyone in particular. I say it to hopefully be positively constructive.

Chad, player of a few